Proof that God exists (for agnostics/athiests)

[NoIDidn't]

Humility in what sense? That you claim to know more about life than scientists do, only because a book gives you a fuzzy feeling?

Or humility in the sense that you truly believe you are important enough for a deity to personally coach, guide and save you? Important enough to be kept in heaven for all eternity?

Don't you think that that is at least a bit arrogant?

 

Circumcision of the spirit, as in 'without god your life is empty'?

My life is fuller than that of a believer. Because I only have my life. I don't get to live forever. My eternity is these (hopefully) 80-90 years or so I get. Therefore I don't want to spend my life in war or pain, I want to live, find love and die happy.

I know beleivers think Atheists are negative, but that is because you only see us in debate, where we have to focus on negative points of religion to make our point. I mean, saying that a life without a god is pointless is pretty damn negative too you know.

Most believers are poor, uneducated and suppressed. Most Atheists live in freedom, are educated and wealthy... do you really think this is because we sold our souls to the devil? I might dare to say that Atheists are among the happiest people on this very planet.

 

 

 

Humility as stated is just what it means. Look it up. Stop reading so much into what is said because of your own biases.

 

Somehow I doubt a person that claims to be so happy can constantly look for the negative in others' beliefs. But that's besides the point. Sorry.

[J2FT1]

I'm pretty sure more people have died in the name of "god" than have been saved (physically and emotionally). Modern thinking does not have room for a supreme being. A secular world is a good world.

[DutchGuy]

Humility as stated is just what it means. Look it up. Stop reading so much into what is said because of your own biases.

 

Somehow I doubt a person that claims to be so happy can constantly look for the negative in others' beliefs. But that's besides the point. Sorry.

 

Realism may seem pessimistic to an optimist.

[DutchGuy]

I am amazed at your ability to selectively remember history. While it is not worth arguing with someone who has no value for life (and rationalizes this by saying that life is not really life) about the sanctity of life, misinterpretation of historical facts and statistics needs to be corrected IMO for a healthy discussion.

 

We can easily bring up Hitler. No, he was not a Christian when he was reigning over Germany as a Nazi. He may have been into occult, but this is not a belief in God.

 

And then Stalin and Mao. Yep, I know. Atheists have a rebuttal to this such as...wasn't Stalin a Christian? Nope, he was raised a Christian and reversed his "belief" and became an atheist. Joseph Stalin was responsible for killing over 40 million people. Mao was responsible for killing about 72 million people.

 

And this doesn't touch the many other thousands of deaths brought about by Communism...which as a refresher is an atheistic philosophy. The loss of life from state repression and terrorism from October 1917 to December 1959 under Lenin and Stalin and Khrushchev is estimated at 66.7 million.

 

Under the rule of Pol Pot, the founder of the Communist Party of Kampuchea, Cambodia, one third of his country was put to death.

 

And your twist of statement that an atheist represents himself while a religious person who believes in God represents religion, or his misinterpretation, is a fallacy. I think it is just as easy to say that anyone who uses God as justification for killing and destruction is also doing it as a representative of his own personal beliefs or interpretations. An atheist is either doing it because he is wants power or because he hates those he kills. Stalin killed as a result of his need for complete power. Governments which have used God as their justification have done this so that they could have power over the people.

 

Using religion as a tool for power is not the same as saying that religion condones that use for power. And killing with no belief in God or stating that one has a belief in God says nothing about he belief or lack of belief in a God.

 

Read this link....

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/atrocities.html

 

 

Yes, it is a defense of God, but hey, all atheists give me links that defend that philosophy. Besides, please note that the statistics were taken from a non-Christian source which is here.

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE5.HTM

 

You are welcome to read this one, too, and obtain the same information. You may feel more comfortable as he quotes Voltaire at the top of the page.

 

Please note that more people have been killed as a result of a secular or atheistic government/leader than by a government or leader who called himself religious.

 

So, to end with a quote from the link above...

 

Yes, "Christians" have committed atrocities against other religious and non-religious people. However, atheists have committed far more atrocities than all religious groups combined. Even so, the key factor in these atrocities has been totalitarian power, rather than religion, which has resulted in these hundreds of millions of murders.

 

The Federal Bureau of Prisons does have statistics on religious affiliations of inmates. The following are total number of inmates per religion category:

Catholic 29267 39.164% Protestant 26162 35.008% Muslim 5435 7.273% American Indian 2408 3.222% Nation 1734 2.320% Rasta 1485 1.987% Jewish 1325 1.773% Church of Christ 1303 1.744% Pentecostal 1093 1.463% Moorish 1066 1.426% Buddhist 882 1.180% Jehovah Witness 665 0.890% Adventist 621 0.831% Orthodox 375 0.502% Mormon 298 0.399% Scientology 190 0.254% Atheist 156 0.209% Hindu 119 0.159% Santeria 117 0.157% Sikh 14 0.019% Bahai 9 0.012% Krishna 7 0.009%

Total Known Responses 74731 100.001% (rounding to 3 digits does this)

Unknown/No Answer 18381

Total Convicted 93112 80.259% (74731) prisoners' religion is known.

Held in Custody 3856 (not surveyed due to temporary custody)

Total In Prisons 96968

 

Hitler was a catholic. Why do you think he was gunning for the Jews, the killers of christ?

 

Furthermore, communism is not Atheism, it is a political view.

[JamesM]

It is interesting to note how you skipped over most of my comments. Nothing about prisoners was mentioned. However, let me point out where your statistics went wrong.

 

The Federal Bureau of Prisons does have statistics on religious affiliations of inmates. The following are total number of inmates per religion category:

Catholic 29267 39.164% Protestant 26162 35.008% Muslim 5435 7.273% American Indian 2408 3.222% Nation 1734 2.320% Rasta 1485 1.987% Jewish 1325 1.773% Church of Christ 1303 1.744% Pentecostal 1093 1.463% Moorish 1066 1.426% Buddhist 882 1.180% Jehovah Witness 665 0.890% Adventist 621 0.831% Orthodox 375 0.502% Mormon 298 0.399% Scientology 190 0.254% Atheist 156 0.209% Hindu 119 0.159% Santeria 117 0.157% Sikh 14 0.019% Bahai 9 0.012% Krishna 7 0.009%

Total Known Responses 74731 100.001% (rounding to 3 digits does this)

Unknown/No Answer 18381

Total Convicted 93112 80.259% (74731) prisoners' religion is known.

Held in Custody 3856 (not surveyed due to temporary custody)

Total In Prisons 96968

 

First of all, where did you get your statistics? There are more than TWO MILLION prisoners currently.

 

With more than 2.3 million people behind bars, the United States leads the world in both the number and percentage of residents it incarcerates,

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2008/02/28/ST2008022803016.html

 

Your statistics are a survey of less than 5% of them. So while this may be true for the segment you quoted, it has no bearing for the other 95% of the prison population.

 

Second, at least 75 to 85% of the US population has a stated religious preference. However, this does not indicate their actual belief. As atheists will state, very few who do not believe in a God will actually show this as their preference. Most list the religious preference based on how they were brought up. The majority of American prisoners also have a stated religious preference. However, a high number of prisoners did not practice any religion prior to incarceration. That is, they did not pray, attend scripture study, or attend worship services.

 

So to state that their religious preference in any way indicates that religion and crime are associated is a fallacy. These statistics are meaningless.

 

Hitler was a catholic. Why do you think he was gunning for the Jews, the killers of christ?

 

A little research is in order. Let's start with wikipedia. Simple to read and concise.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler's_religious_beliefs

 

Adolf Hitler was brought up as a Christian, specifically a Roman Catholic. According to historian Bradley F. Smith, Hitler's father, though nominally a Catholic, was a freethinker,[1] while his mother was a practising Catholic.[2] According to historian Michael Rissmann young Adolf was influenced in school by Pan-Germanism and Darwinism and began to reject the Church and Catholicism, receiving Confirmation only unwillingly. A boyhood friend reports that after Hitler had left home, he never attended Mass or received the Sacraments.[3] Georg Ritter von Schönerer's writings and the written legacy of his Pan-German Away from Rome! movement, which agitated against the Roman Catholic Church at the end of the 19th century, may have influenced the young Adolf Hitler.[4]

 

Read this regarding Nazism and Hitler and the attacks against the Church.

http://www.digitas.harvard.edu/~salient/issues/00comm/colbnazi.html

 

Many atheists today were raised either Catholic or Protestant. Does this mean that their acts whether good or bad are influenced more by their upbringing or more by their lack of belief in God today?

 

Furthermore, communism is not Atheism, it is a political view.

 

Ah, reread my statement....

And this doesn't touch the many other thousands of deaths brought about by Communism...which as a refresher is an atheistic philosophy.

 

I am not saying that they are equal. Most atheists are not Communists, but I think it is safe to say that most true adherents to Communism are atheist.

 

I am going to quote an atheist site for you....

http://www.atheists.org/faqs/atheism.html

 

Atheism is NOT historically linked to Communism, or any other particular system of social organization. Atheists represent many shades on the political spectrum, and often disagree amongst themselves about political issues. While Communism and its leading theoreticians happened to be Atheists, social activists of other persuasions have been Atheists as well.

 

So my point again is that we can see what an atheistic political regime can do. Blaming wars and atrocities only on religion and a belief in God is a fallacy.

[DutchGuy]

It is interesting to note how you skipped over most of my comments. Nothing about prisoners was mentioned. However, let me point out where your statistics went wrong.

Yeah I'm sorry, but these messages get very lengthy and I was still tired from celebrating our nation's football victory over Italy.

But I'll respond to this post fully.

 

First of all, where did you get your statistics? There are more than TWO MILLION prisoners currently.

 

With more than 2.3 million people behind bars, the United States leads the world in both the number and percentage of residents it incarcerates,

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2008/02/28/ST2008022803016.html

 

Your statistics are a survey of less than 5% of them. So while this may be true for the segment you quoted, it has no bearing for the other 95% of the prison population.

Well, you are aware that there is no way in having a survey amongst the whole studied population right? If it is claimed that one in ten is gay or one in two marriages end up in divorce, it always comes from a survey among a fraction of the studied population. And if you knew anything about statistics you should know that 5% of 2.3 million has enough significance to accept the outcome.

Second, at least 75 to 85% of the US population has a stated religious preference. However, this does not indicate their actual belief. As atheists will state, very few who do not believe in a God will actually show this as their preference. Most list the religious preference based on how they were brought up. The majority of American prisoners also have a stated religious preference. However, a high number of prisoners did not practice any religion prior to incarceration. That is, they did not pray, attend scripture study, or attend worship services.

 

So to state that their religious preference in any way indicates that religion and crime are associated is a fallacy. These statistics are meaningless.

Well can you show me a source that indicates that prisoners don't believe in god despite their religious preference / don't pray / don't worship?

(you may use a survey amongst less than the total number of prisoners).

 

A little research is in order. Let's start with wikipedia. Simple to read and concise.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler's_religious_beliefs

 

Adolf Hitler was brought up as a Christian, specifically a Roman Catholic. According to historian Bradley F. Smith, Hitler's father, though nominally a Catholic, was a freethinker,[1] while his mother was a practising Catholic.[2] According to historian Michael Rissmann young Adolf was influenced in school by Pan-Germanism and Darwinism and began to reject the Church and Catholicism, receiving Confirmation only unwillingly. A boyhood friend reports that after Hitler had left home, he never attended Mass or received the Sacraments.[3] Georg Ritter von Schönerer's writings and the written legacy of his Pan-German Away from Rome! movement, which agitated against the Roman Catholic Church at the end of the 19th century, may have influenced the young Adolf Hitler.[4]

 

Read this regarding Nazism and Hitler and the attacks against the Church.

http://www.digitas.harvard.edu/~salient/issues/00comm/colbnazi.html

 

Many atheists today were raised either Catholic or Protestant. Does this mean that their acts whether good or bad are influenced more by their upbringing or more by their lack of belief in God today?

 

The following quotes are from this website:

http://www.nobeliefs.com/hitler.htm

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.

-Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman

H

. Baynes, ed.

The Speeches of Adolf Hitler

, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)

For God's will gave men their form, their essence and their abilities. Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the Lord's creation, the divine will.

-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

 

Should the same renunciation not be possible if this injunction is replaced by the admonition finally to put an end to the constant and continuous original sin of racial poisoning, and to give the Almighty Creator beings such as He Himself created?

-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

 

Anyone who dares to lay hands on the highest image of the Lord commits sacrilege against the benevolent creator of this miracle and contributes to the expulsion from paradise.

-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

 

Ah, reread my statement....

And this doesn't touch the many other thousands of deaths brought about by Communism...which as a refresher is an atheistic philosophy.

 

I am not saying that they are equal. Most atheists are not Communists, but I think it is safe to say that most true adherents to Communism are atheist.

 

I am going to quote an atheist site for you....

http://www.atheists.org/faqs/atheism.html

 

Atheism is NOT historically linked to Communism, or any other particular system of social organization. Atheists represent many shades on the political spectrum, and often disagree amongst themselves about political issues. While Communism and its leading theoreticians happened to be Atheists, social activists of other persuasions have been Atheists as well.

 

So my point again is that we can see what an atheistic political regime can do. Blaming wars and atrocities only on religion and a belief in God is a fallacy.

 

Fact to the matter stays that although the religious all learn in their scriptures not to commit sin (and murder is in all great religions a sin) , clearly, there is enough room for further interpretation of the scriptures to engage into war.

 

This whole thing is not even about Hitler or any communist leader that killed millions. It's about the social platform that endorses these terrible things, whether it is done deliberately or not. Atheism is no teaching, there are no rules to go by. You can not blame Atheism for communism, simply because there is no leader or scripture that tells Atheists to be communist. You can blame religion for fanatism and extremism, discrimination, war, rape, self-loathing, naiveness and isolation because it is being taught by leaders and scripture (or the scripture gives room for that interpretation).

[JamesM]

Yeah I'm sorry, but these messages get very lengthy and I was still tired from celebrating our nation's football victory over Italy.

But I'll respond to this post fully.

 

Yes, they do...and congrats to the Netherlands.

 

Well, you are aware that there is no way in having a survey amongst the whole studied population right? If it is claimed that one in ten is gay or one in two marriages end up in divorce, it always comes from a survey among a fraction of the studied population.

 

Correct. And these statistics regarding gays are incorrect...a point for another thread. As for marriages, these statistics are taken from...divorce records. These can be actually quite accurate because this is not a survey of people who answer questions, but it is simply someone who looks at the number of marriage licenses and the number of divorce records. It is not like someone says, "We are divorced." The statistics are not subjective.

 

And if you knew anything about statistics you should know that 5% of 2.3 million has enough significance to accept the outcome.

 

It all depends on whether the survey was asked of a population which is indicative of the whole prison population. And even still, there is a huge possibility that the survey is not correct because 95% of the population has not been surveyed.

 

Take the recent primary election here in the US. If we surveyed the urban areas of say Tennessee, then we find that Obama had a huge margin of votes. Yet if we take a survey of the rural areas, we find the exact opposite...Clinton had a big lead. Surveys are only as good as the person asking the questions and the population being surveyed.

 

Well can you show me a source that indicates that prisoners don't believe in god despite their religious preference / don't pray / don't worship?

(you may use a survey amongst less than the total number of prisoners).

 

I don't even know where you obtained your information regarding the prison population. Were these numbers made up by you? Are they for real? Simply reading them made me suspicious that they had any meaning.

 

Perhaps you have a link that gives me more information as to the validity of your numbers.

 

 

The following quotes are from this website:

http://www.nobeliefs.com/hitler.htm

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.

-Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman

H

. Baynes, ed.

The Speeches of Adolf Hitler

, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)

 

Well, finally. I expected those quotes earlier.

 

First, we need to examine whether Hitler is honest enough to be trusted by his public words. This is the same man who said he would not invade Poland, etc., for starters. And as a master of propaganda, one can see how this was used to further his own goals.

 

But putting that aside, Hitler may in public have claimed to be doing the will of God, but records of his private conversations show otherwise. Many of these were recorded by his secretary and published in a book called

Hitler's Table Talk.

 

And despite all that, he may be quoted in his early years as "being Christian," but to quote an atheistic website...

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/sn-hitler.html

 

Once Hitler had gained power, he began to see Christianity as a threat to the National Socialists' domination of Germany. After 1935 his speeches and writings became more and more virulently anti-Christian; he argued that Christian worship was a sign of weakness, and that it should be replaced by reverence for the nation and the state, and of course for the National Socialist Party.

 

Truth is...unless you or I talk with Hitler, we cannot know what his motivation really was.However, we can see that it is not in accordance with what is taught by Christianity.

 

Fact to the matter stays that although the religious all learn in their scriptures not to commit sin (and murder is in all great religions a sin) , clearly, there is enough room for further interpretation of the scriptures to engage into war.

 

No, it is that those who wish to further their own goals twist whatever religious scriptures they can as a way to persuade others. Christianity does not condone such actions. However, it indeed cannot be ignored that it has been used to justify such actions.

 

This whole thing is not even about Hitler or any communist leader that killed millions. It's about the social platform that endorses these terrible things, whether it is done deliberately or not.

 

And that social platform is not God and the Bible. It may be man using it out of context. But it cannot be said that it is condoned by the Bible.

 

Atheism is no teaching, there are no rules to go by.

 

Based on this, I can only conclude that atheists have no morals or rules, yes? And if they do, then they borrow them from those that believe in God?

 

Certainly you do not believe this.

 

Man by nature is war like. It is not because he does or does not believe in a God.

 

You can not blame Atheism for communism, simply because there is no leader or scripture that tells Atheists to be communist.

 

Again, for the third time, all atheists are not Communists, but all communists by nature of the philosophy are atheists. You stated that atheists cannot be accused of rapes, wars, and fanaticism. I disagree. Philosophies that deny the existence of god also lead to fanaticism and atrocities.

 

You can blame religion for fanatism and extremism, discrimination, war, rape, self-loathing, naiveness and isolation because it is being taught by leaders and scripture (or the scripture gives room for that interpretation).

 

No, you can blame man for misusing religion...based on your own wording. And based on history, we can see that many atheistic governments have used power for extremism, fanaticism, war etc.

 

Are you saying that rapists are believers in God and not atheists?

 

And atheists are not naive while religious folks are? Surely YOU are not that naive.

 

And isolationism is only among those that believe in a God? Does the North Korean government strike you as Christian? Have they not isolated their people to keep control.

 

And

so

it goes on and on.

[DutchGuy]

Yes, they do...and congrats to the Netherlands.

Thanks.

It all depends on whether the survey was asked of a population which is indicative of the whole prison population. And even still, there is a huge possibility that the survey is not correct because 95% of the population has not been surveyed.

 

Take the recent primary election here in the US. If we surveyed the urban areas of say Tennessee, then we find that Obama had a huge margin of votes. Yet if we take a survey of the rural areas, we find the exact opposite...Clinton had a big lead. Surveys are only as good as the person asking the questions and the population being surveyed.

That would just be bad surveying. A good survey is randomized.

I don't even know where you obtained your information regarding the prison population. Were these numbers made up by you? Are they for real? Simply reading them made me suspicious that they had any meaning.

 

Perhaps you have a link that gives me more information as to the validity of your numbers.

 

http://www.adherents.com/misc/adh_prison.html

 

The most upper table puts the unanswered together with Atheists, but I don't agree with that. The last table is the one I copied.

 

Well, finally. I expected those quotes earlier.

 

First, we need to examine whether Hitler is honest enough to be trusted by his public words. This is the same man who said he would not invade Poland, etc., for starters. And as a master of propaganda, one can see how this was used to further his own goals.

 

But putting that aside, Hitler may in public have claimed to be doing the will of God, but records of his private conversations show otherwise. Many of these were recorded by his secretary and published in a book called Hitler's Table Talk.

 

And despite all that, he may be quoted in his early years as "being Christian," but to quote an atheistic website...

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/sn-hitler.html

 

Once Hitler had gained power, he began to see Christianity as a threat to the National Socialists' domination of Germany. After 1935 his speeches and writings became more and more virulently anti-Christian; he argued that Christian worship was a sign of weakness, and that it should be replaced by reverence for the nation and the state, and of course for the National Socialist Party.

 

Truth is...unless you or I talk with Hitler, we cannot know what his motivation really was.However, we can see that it is not in accordance with what is taught by Christianity.

So you agree that neither you or I could know his true belief.

But that aside, I'll explain later in this post that it is not the faith in god itself, but the religion that drives people to bad things.

 

No, it is that those who wish to further their own goals twist whatever religious scriptures they can as a way to persuade others. Christianity does not condone such actions. However, it indeed cannot be ignored that it has been used to justify such actions.

Therefore, religion makes people do things against their own morals.

 

And that social platform is not God and the Bible. It may be man using it out of context. But it cannot be said that it is condoned by the Bible.

The interpretation man gives to scripture is 'religion'. Religion is not what is being taught by scripture, it is what leaders interpret out of scripture and what followers choose to believe.

 

Based on this, I can only conclude that atheists have no morals or rules, yes? And if they do, then they borrow them from those that believe in God?

 

Certainly you do not believe this.

False. I do not believe morals are derived from the bible, I believe that social human morals have been put in the bible to convince others (not so social people) to follow these rules.

 

It's just simple social evolution.

 

Why do I love, why do I mourn, why do I wish to explore?

Because it's in my nature, not because scripture taught me how to.

 

And talking about mourning... why is it that believers mourn? Why can't you be happy for your loved one who is in heaven. Isn't it true that you can spend all eternity together after your own death?

 

Man by nature is war like. It is not because he does or does not believe in a God.

But following the path of christ should give you the strength to forgive and turn away from violence. The path of christ should even give you the strength to choose to be killed yourself rather than kill somebody else.

Heaven will await you.

 

Again, for the third time, all atheists are not Communists, but all communists by nature of the philosophy are atheists. You stated that atheists cannot be accused of rapes, wars, and fanaticism. I disagree. Philosophies that deny the existence of god also lead to fanaticism and atrocities.

Well, you saw where I get my morals from. Born again christians can all testify that while they were without faith they did not lose all moral notice.

 

What fanatism can follow out of being an Atheist? Working on Sunday? Being afraid to die?

Atheism is not about worshipping the devil or 'the dark side' or whatever, Atheists simply do not believe in gods.

 

No, you can blame man for misusing religion...based on your own wording. And based on history, we can see that many atheistic governments have used power for extremism, fanaticism, war etc.

 

Are you saying that rapists are believers in God and not atheists?

 

And atheists are not naive while religious folks are? Surely YOU are not that naive.

 

And isolationism is only among those that believe in a God? Does the North Korean government strike you as Christian? Have they not isolated their people to keep control.

 

And so it goes on and on.

Religion is the misuse of belief by man.

I don't see why believers need somebody to tell them what to think. Catholic or Protestant... huh, if I was a christian I'd do what god told me to do, not some priest.

 

Ofcourse I'm not saying that rapists are believers and Atheists don't rape.

I said that religion can lead to rape. The sad thing being that it happens only because believers want to do the right thing.

My example:

A gay kid is told by his parents that the sexual act between two men is sin (it says so in the bible, the parents only want to protect their kid).

When he is an adult this kid sees no other way than to get married and to lay down every night with a woman. Now this man has to have sex (go forth and multiply) with a person he is not attracted to, doesn't love and really doesn't want to (rape). Conclusion, by wanting to keep their child from committing a sin, the parents got their child raped.

 

The example is extreme, but it is plausible and it happens.

My point only is, following what is said in the bible can lead to bad things.

[J2FT1]

My example:

A gay kid is told by his parents that the sexual act between two men is sin (it says so in the bible, the parents only want to protect their kid).

When he is an adult this kid sees no other way than to get married and to lay down every night with a woman. Now this man has to have sex (go forth and multiply) with a person he is not attracted to, doesn't love and really doesn't want to (rape). Conclusion, by wanting to keep their child from committing a sin, the parents got their child raped.

 

The example is extreme, but it is plausible and it happens.

My point only is, following what is said in the bible can lead to bad things.

 

It was actually very common before the gay movement.

[J2FT1]

I am not trying to be rude, but I don't know of a man who can have sex with a woman without being...shall we say "UP" to the task. So how is that rape? If he doesn't want to, he will remain in the unaroused state, right?

 

Well, I don't know first hand, but you do see many closet-gays (meaning before the gay movement) that has made families, with kids. Maybe they were so ashamed that they did whatever it took to hide it.

[mental_traveller]

Well, you have two choices (and they're both scientific and religious), you either came from nothing, or somebody created you - simple.

 

Same applies to god - either he came from nothing, or someone created him. If he can come from nothing, then the universe can come from nothing.

 

Even if the universe was created, there is nothing to say it must have been created by god. It may have been created by multiple gods, or little green men, by accident, or by random chance through some process we don't know about.

 

There's a third possibility, which is that the universe has always existed.

[DutchGuy]

I am not trying to be rude, but I don't know of a man who can have sex with a woman without being...shall we say "UP" to the task. So how is that rape? If he doesn't want to, he will remain in the unaroused state, right?

 

Are you implying that a man can't be raped by a woman?

 

There are women that were victim of rape, that have enormous feelings of guilt because they got 'wet'.

Please don't contribute to such ignorant beliefs.

[FleshNBones]

Same applies to god - either he came from nothing, or someone created him. If he can come from nothing, then the universe can come from nothing.

 

Even if the universe was created, there is nothing to say it must have been created by god. It may have been created by multiple gods, or little green men, by accident, or by random chance through some process we don't know about.

 

There's a third possibility, which is that the universe has always existed.

If God existed before there was time (he created it), then he always existed.

 

Does random change make sense in the absence of space and time? There is no time for a random event and no place for it to occur.

 

The third possibility was ruled out by reputable scientists.

[MrsHellnoFire]

I don't know why people keep trying to make all these theories trying to support the Bible. The Bible was written by HUMANS- basically animals- ones very oblivious to the universe or much about the world at that time. At that time, it was a common concept that the planets revolved around earth. But somehow these same people had an exorbitant amount of wisdom to be all knowing? When you have a self-centered species writing a document that supposedly is about the origination of humankind, do you really put that much credence into it? The whole Bible in itself is so ridiculous in its constant proclamation of how humans are superior and dominant of the earth? Is that something a God would be involved in creating? No.. only the human mind is this self-absorbed. Imagination is what separates us from the animal kingdom... that's clearly displayed in the Bible. Sorry, I'm more of a scientific freak, than one relying on nonsensical symbolism from the good old BIble. My religious teacher even said that the Bible is not made to be taken literally. It's all about symbolism.

[andysw]

So where's the proof? I got all excited when I read that there is proof that God exists.

 

Your post says nothing other than "we know that what created everything was intelligent and powerful".

 

Yawn..

 

No proof, no God.

 

"God" is just an easy answer for questions that still have no answers. If everyone was as moronic as the original poster, scientists wouldn't have discovered ANYTHING and the thunder outside my window would be attributed to Gods bowling or something.

 

What kind of proof are you looking for, mr athiest?

[J2FT1]

What kind of proof are you looking for, mr athiest?

 

There is only one kind of proof. What you do mean "what kind?" Show me a picture of him making the Universe. Show something that even hints at someone creating the universe other than the wretched bible.

[DutchGuy]

Ignorant or otherwise, I asked a question out of curiosity. If you aren't capable of answering it, that's fine. But a person who asked a question is foolish until given the answer and a person who doesn't ask is foolish for a lifetime. I'll take it you don't know for sure. Thanks for trying anyway.

 

Ofcourse it is possible for a man to have sex against his will.

[Enema]

Yes, you can.

[Lookingforward]

3,400 years ago, which is about 1,400 BC before Christ, the Israelites were commanded to march around the city of Jericho, the city of the moon, 6 times over the course of 6 days as documented in the book of Joshua chapter 6.

 

Every time they circle Jericho they march 360 degress for a grand total of 2,160 degress (360 degress X 6 days = 2,160 degress). It's now known today that the exact diameter of the moon is 2,160 miles.

 

Pretty cool, isn't it?

 

considering you apparently believe the world is only 6,000 years old, it's bloody amazing

[MaxManwell]

Sedimentation

 

rates

 

 

 

 

 

 

the world is much older than 6000 years

[Gunny376]

I'll start with a simple question, if I promise to give you a chocolate bar after an infinite amount of time will I ever give you the chocolate bar? No. Another question, could there be an infinite amount of time before right now? No, because we would never of reached this moment of time.

 

We can conclude that time started a finite amount of time ago. Meaning, according to the bible, about 6000 years. It can be determined that time started some time ago, and before that there was no time.

 

Scientists say that matter can't be created or destroyed. So, has matter always existed? No, because it's already determined that time didn't always exist and you can't have matter without time. Nor can you have matter without space. If you have matter where would you put it? Space And when would you put it? Time.

 

So here's the problem, we know that there wasn't always time and thus we have to include that there wasn't always matter.

 

Lets just say we don't know what caused matter, time and space. But what we do know is that whatever created them was immensly powerful and extremely intelligent.

 

You will find the answers (along with the math) in a book titled "The Physics Of Immortility"

[Moai]

I find it humorous that you used wikipedia when you have scoffed at many others when they used such an inaccurate source.

 

Studies have shown that on the whole, wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. The article I quoted is accurate. If you don't think so, feel free to provide an example of where the equations and conclusions are wrong.

 

Quoting a Creationist site as if it has correct information regarding evolution is quite different. I have pointed out the error in those cases.

 

Good try, though.

[Moai]

I

So my point again is that we can see what an atheistic political regime can do. Blaming wars and atrocities only on religion and a belief in God is a fallacy.

 

No, it is not fallacious. Any totalitarian regime is capable of, and more often than not engages in genocide or atrocities. The "atheist" regimes persecuted free-thought as well, which would include 99,999% of all atheists living today, I should think.

 

As far as religions go, there have been so many religious wars it would be impossible to list them all. The Crusades leap to mind. Christianity itself was spread at the point of a sword. And let us not forget the Inquisition...

 

Why are these examples relevant? Because unlike Pol Pot or Stalin or Mao, these events are a direct result of religious belief, while in the aforementioned cases atheism was but a component.

 

The Inquisition persecuted people because of heresy. Hitler was raised Catholic, and while in later life he had issues with Christianity he never renounced his Catholicism, and the Catholic Church actually helped high-ranking Nazis escape from Europe. Germans learned their antisemitism in CHURCH. Martin Luther wrote a book called, "The Jews and Their Lies" in 1543. That's 390 years before Hitler took power.

 

Look up what a "pogrom" is. The Jews were being slaughtered by Christians long before Hitler came around--he was just the one who built factories for that purpose.

 

People are killing each other because of religious beliefs RIGHT NOW.

 

The instances of religious violence and persecution are relevant because the vast majority of believers make the argument that without belief in their god/gods mankind would be immoral and destroy itself. Objective fact not only shows this to be false, but that THE REVERSE IS TRUE.

 

The argument is made that without god one cannot be happy. Studies show that THE REVERSE IS TRUE.

 

The argument is made that religion (usually Christianity) makes people peaceful and evidence shows that THE REVERSE IS TRUE.

 

Conversely, I am not aware of anyone who would argue that totalitarian governments are more peaceful and more reasonable. They aren't, whether they espouse atheism or a religion. Atheism doesn't necessarily result in violence and genocide, nor does religion. But the chances are far greater with religion.

 

I haven't done the math, but it may be true that Communist regimes have killed more people than religious ones, but if that is the case it is because of technology, not will. Imagine how many more would have been tortured and killed if the Inquisition had access to 20th century weapons technology!

 

I shudder to think what the number swill be when groups like the Taliban or Dominionists get a nuclear bomb. They'll pass the Communists for sure, I think. And that should be prevented at all costs, IMO.

[burning 4 revenge]

Im not going to let it pass that you imply the Holocaust was a Catholic pogrom Moai.

 

The Holocaust was a direct result of Hitler's own re-interpretation of Darwinism and was conducted to "purify" European bloodlines, not to punish non-believers. It was a philosophy that was only possible in the context of atheism. And if some Catholic priests helped convicted Nazis escape it wasn't because the Catholic Church aproved of the Holocaust

[disgracian]

It was a philosophy that was only possible in the context of atheism.

Because ethnic cleansing never happened in the Bible...nor did it happen in former Yugoslavia. Nor anywhere else actually. It's only possible in the context of atheism.

 

People say the daftest things...

 

Cheers,

D.