Proof that God exists (for agnostics/athiests)

[Yakri]

"Lets just say we don't know what caused matter, time and space. But what we do know is that whatever created them was immensly powerful and extremely intelligent."

 

So, what created that?

 

You can look infinitely look back farther and farther back. the only thing you can prove with logic is something started our existence somewhere, even if indirectly, and there is no way to say what it was, or what created it in the first place.

[lovelorcet]

Other than acknowledging that there couldn't have been an infinite amount of time before now, there are other ways to show signs that evolution can't explain. Such as the bacterial flagellum. 40 different parts are required to build the flagellum motor and half of them are constructive proteins that assemble the flagellum's individual components. If one of them is removed the flagellum will be useless. Evolution can't explain how a machine of superb design could've risen gradually without forsight or plan through the biological pathway that Darwin envisioned.

 

A design demands a designer.

 

 

Michael J Behe has proposed this idea many times and the flagellum example has been taken apart and reduced down even further.

 

This is an example often given to people who don't really know anything about biology and biochemistry.

[MaxManwell]

Negative infinity, that argument is kinda retarded on all levels it makes me feel ashamed that I can speak english.

[andysw]

3,400 years ago, which is about 1,400 BC before Christ, the Israelites were commanded to march around the city of Jericho, the city of the moon, 6 times over the course of 6 days as documented in the book of Joshua chapter 6.

 

Every time they circle Jericho they march 360 degress for a grand total of 2,160 degress (360 degress X 6 days = 2,160 degress). It's now known today that the exact diameter of the moon is 2,160 miles.

 

Pretty cool, isn't it?

[Enema]

But wait there's more. The full verse actually says:

 

March around the city once with all the armed men. Do this for six days. On the seventh day, march around the city seven times, with the priests blowing the trumpets.

 

360 degrees x 7 days = 2520 degrees. 2520 miles is exactly 360 miles more than the diameter of the moon! and 360 is 5 days less than a full year, and 5 is my lucky number so we can forget that. OMG!

 

Of course, they didn't even use miles in bible times, so any pattern I might find is purely coincidental.

 

Jeebus andy, is there anything god-related that you don't swallow hook line and sinker?

[disgracian]

Well, it's actually 360 degrees * 6 + ( 360 * 7 ), equalling a grand total of 4,680 degrees.

 

What utterly drivelous tripe. I am dumber for having read it.

 

Cheers,

D.

[andysw]

But wait there's more. The full verse actually says:

 

 

 

360 degrees x 7 days = 2520 degrees. 2520 miles is exactly 360 miles more than the diameter of the moon! and 360 is 5 days less than a full year, and 5 is my lucky number so we can forget that. OMG!

 

Of course, they didn't even use miles in bible times, so any pattern I might find is purely coincidental.

 

Jeebus andy, is there anything god-related that you don't swallow hook line and sinker?

 

The 7th day is clearly distinct from the 6 days, as the scripture clearly separates them. The days ARE very distinct.

 

Day 1: marched once around it

Day 2: marched once around it

Day 3: marched once around it

Day 4: marched once around it

Day 5: marched once around it

Day 6: marched once around it

 

Day 7: marched around it seven times, all the people gave a loud shout, followed by the wall crashing down. They were very distinct indeed.

 

And also, not only did the God of Israel know the exact diameter of the moon he also knew the english mile 3000 years before it was invented by the english. I don't know the verse for this but I will look through it and post it here when I have the time.

 

Next time when quoting a bible verse put verse numbers in them.

[MaxManwell]

Is there a god ?

 

Probably.

 

Does religion have anything to do with that god at all ?

 

Probably not.

 

THE END

[andysw]

The 7th day is clearly distinct from the 6 days, as the scripture clearly separates them. The days ARE very distinct.

 

Day 1: marched once around it

Day 2: marched once around it

Day 3: marched once around it

Day 4: marched once around it

Day 5: marched once around it

Day 6: marched once around it

 

Day 7: marched around it seven times, all the people gave a loud shout, followed by the wall crashing down. They were very distinct indeed.

 

And also, not only did the God of Israel know the exact diameter of the moon he also knew the english mile 3000 years before it was invented by the english. I don't know the verse for this but I will look through it and post it here when I have the time.

 

Next time when quoting a bible verse put verse numbers in them.

 

http://www.thefirmament.org - watch the whole video before making an objection.

[Dark-N-Romantic]

People with ANY type of belief in anything need to stop trying to convince others they are right or wrong. The trick is not in making some submit and see they are right or wrong by force. No, all one can do is put out an option, explain that option fully, and have supporting references. Now if a person wants to believe or not is up to that person. For example, a person can say the sky is blue and other might say cyan. Either one can argue the point, point up to the sky and fully believe what they believe and have supporting proof, but if the other refuses to believe, the argument is futile. So, why should believes even bother about wasting their time convincing when it is wiser to just state what you must state and let it go. If the person is going to believe, they are, if not, they aren't, as long as you believe and did what you are suppose to do, be happy that at least you are getting your reward.

 

 

DNR

[andysw]

People with ANY type of belief in anything need to stop trying to convince others they are right or wrong. The trick is not in making some submit and see they are right or wrong by force. No, all one can do is put out an option, explain that option fully, and have supporting references. Now if a person wants to believe or not is up to that person. For example, a person can say the sky is blue and other might say cyan. Either one can argue the point, point up to the sky and fully believe what they believe and have supporting proof, but if the other refuses to believe, the argument is futile. So, why should believes even bother about wasting their time convincing when it is wiser to just state what you must state and let it go. If the person is going to believe, they are, if not, they aren't, as long as you believe and did what you are suppose to do, be happy that at least you are getting your reward.

 

 

DNR

 

The purpose of this debate is more than just to convince athiests that there is a God. Other than that, the greatest is to let people know what I'm preaching here and hope that they will think about it. This debate is not just to convince the opposition about each other's beliefs. We're merely exchanging knowledge.

[Enema]

The 7th day is clearly distinct from the 6 days, as the scripture clearly separates them. The days ARE very distinct.

 

Day 1: marched once around it

Day 2: marched once around it

Day 3: marched once around it

Day 4: marched once around it

Day 5: marched once around it

Day 6: marched once around it

 

Day 7: marched around it seven times, all the people gave a loud shout, followed by the wall crashing down. They were very distinct indeed.

 

And also, not only did the God of Israel know the exact diameter of the moon he also knew the english mile 3000 years before it was invented by the english. I don't know the verse for this but I will look through it and post it here when I have the time.

 

Next time when quoting a bible verse put verse numbers in them.

 

Ahhh, I found the source that you're using for this horrible arguments:

 

http://youtube.com/watch?v=LYBz6NMwjvw

 

What's even more amusing is that you copied and pasted your comment above from the youtube video comments.

 

I'm reminded of one of disgracian's comments to you in another thread, "Got any opinions of your own andy?"

 

The simple fact is that degree's and miles are completely different units and cannot in any way be compared. Further, they are a modern invention and cherry picking from a passage to try and force a strained connection, with foreign terms it's purely coincidental and nothing more.

 

Fool yourself all you want, but if your goal here is to "convince atheists", you'll have to come up with something better.

[andysw]

Ahhh, I found the source that you're using for this horrible arguments:

 

http://youtube.com/watch?v=LYBz6NMwjvw

 

What's even more amusing is that you copied and pasted your comment above from the youtube video comments.

 

That's not important. What's important is the people knowing this either way. By all means I'm glad that you found the channel, that way everyone will know and find out the truth. Watch the videos, and maybe you will learn something.

[J2FT1]

The purpose of this debate is more than just to convince athiests that there is a God. Other than that, the greatest is to let people know what I'm preaching here and hope that they will think about it. This debate is not just to convince the opposition about each other's beliefs. We're merely exchanging knowledge.

 

Do you really think that all the 2,000,000,000+ people that are allegedly "christians" really give a rats-as* about god? All they care about is providing for their family. If you have to convince someone that there is a god, this already proves that it is not viable. Something as big as a being that created everything, if in doubt, does not exist. I personally know that there is no god. Sorry to be so blunt.

[DutchGuy]

And as a Christian I not only care about providing for my family physically, but spiritually. My children have been taught to seek God first and all other things will be taken care of by God. They know this and they may leave Him for awhile, but they will return, I did. May I ask how you personally believe there is no God?

 

I don't think that is good parenting at all.

Even as a Christian you must know that you have to make your own fortune.

[andysw]

Ahhh, I found the source that you're using for this horrible arguments:

 

http://youtube.com/watch?v=LYBz6NMwjvw

 

What's even more amusing is that you copied and pasted your comment above from the youtube video comments.

 

I'm reminded of one of disgracian's comments to you in another thread, "Got any opinions of your own andy?"

 

The simple fact is that degree's and miles are completely different units and cannot in any way be compared. Further, they are a modern invention and cherry picking from a passage to try and force a strained connection, with foreign terms it's purely coincidental and nothing more.

 

Fool yourself all you want, but if your goal here is to "convince atheists", you'll have to come up with something better.

 

http://www.thefirmament.org

 

Go check out this webpage. Don't object until you see the whole video.

[wizer]

I'll start with a simple question, if I promise to give you a chocolate bar after an infinite amount of time will I ever give you the chocolate bar? No. Another question, could there be an infinite amount of time before right now? No, because we would never of reached this moment of time.

 

We can conclude that time started a finite amount of time ago. Meaning, according to the bible, about 6000 years. It can be determined that time started some time ago, and before that there was no time.

 

Scientists say that matter can't be created or destroyed. So, has matter always existed? No, because it's already determined that time didn't always exist and you can't have matter without time. Nor can you have matter without space. If you have matter where would you put it? Space And when would you put it? Time.

 

So here's the problem, we know that there wasn't always time and thus we have to include that there wasn't always matter.

 

Lets just say we don't know what caused matter, time and space. But what we do know is that whatever created them was immensly powerful and extremely intelligent.

 

 

So where's the proof? I got all excited when I read that there is proof that God exists.

 

Your post says nothing other than "we know that what created everything was intelligent and powerful".

 

Yawn..

 

No proof, no God.

 

"God" is just an easy answer for questions that still have no answers. If everyone was as moronic as the original poster, scientists wouldn't have discovered ANYTHING and the thunder outside my window would be attributed to Gods bowling or something.

[Enema]

http://www.thefirmament.org

 

Go check out this webpage. Don't object until you see the whole video.

 

I could only make myself watch half of this video... It's more silly numerology labeled as "proof" of god. Numerology and patterns don't prove anything, but I will humour you.

 

The video says:

 

The area of Noah's Ark (in inches), is equal to the diameter of the Sun (in miles). Therefore: god exists.

 

Most of the same refutations of the Jericho one can be used again:

 

1) Why miles and inches? These are modern inventions and not even used world-wide.

2) He's comparing inches to miles. Different units.

3) There is no logical connection between the ark and the sun.

4) Comparing the area (flat space) to the diameter (straight line) is nonsensical.

5) The bible doesn't connect the ark to the sun.

6) The figures quoted for the diameter of the sun are debatable.

7) The definition of a "cubit" is debatable.

 

I'll leave it there. We can point out the logical inconsistencies with any of these numerology arguments.

 

Let's just pretend that for once the bible was clear and unambiguously said:

 

"The diameter of the sun is 865,456 miles".

 

Would even this prediction prove that god exists? No.

[wizer]

I could only make myself watch half of this video... It's more silly numerology labeled as "proof" of god. Numerology and patterns don't prove anything, but I will humour you.

 

The video says:

 

The area of Noah's Ark (in inches), is equal to the diameter of the Sun (in miles). Therefore: god exists.

 

Most of the same refutations of the Jericho one can be used again:

 

1) Why miles and inches? These are modern inventions and not even used world-wide.

2) He's comparing inches to miles. Different units.

3) There is no logical connection between the ark and the sun.

4) Comparing the area (flat space) to the diameter (straight line) is nonsensical.

5) The bible doesn't connect the ark to the sun.

6) The figures quoted for the diameter of the sun are debatable.

7) The definition of a "cubit" is debatable.

 

I'll leave it there. We can point out the logical inconsistencies with any of these numerology arguments.

 

Let's just pretend that for once the bible was clear and unambiguously said:

 

"The diameter of the sun is 865,456 miles".

 

Would even this prediction prove that god exists? No.

 

Your post makes way too much sense.

 

Therefore it will be ignored by all of those who belief in God.

 

But I read it. And I agree with every word of it. Unfortunately, when you try to be logical and reasonable and point out the tons of inconsistancies and hypocrasy in the Bible, you are "preaching to the choir". The only ones who will read it are those who know the truth.

[DutchGuy]

Yes, it is good parenting. I never said I told me children to do nothing to prepare for life, I said I taught them that God always comes first and everything else will fall into to place according to his plan for you. Wealth is valued by everyone or measured the same way. Living our lives for Christ allows us to live comfortably enough to help others less fortunate. For us when one door closes it is and opportunity to find out God's new direction is for us. We are happy and well taken care of. He provides for our needs(through jobs that take care of the necessities) and in return we give him praise and worship. That is a good parent and a good Christian.

 

 

Of course if you aren't a believer there is no way you will ever be able to understand that God provides all of our needs. I don't need to worry about where it is coming from, it is coming from Him.

 

But what if they never find god? Then they might have the idea that life is pointless. Why not just teach your kids to live a good life, why drag god into this? Even if you do believe yourself, you must understand that it can be pretty difficult to find god?

 

Oh I understand what believing in god is all about, I dated a girl whose father was deeply religious, he lived in a monastary for years.

He had an unconditional faith in god and saw every little lucky break as a direct blessing from god.

But I also saw this man struggling on a daily basis with his faith, tormenting himself to live like he thought god wanted him to. Blaming every misfortune on unchristian decisions he had made in the past.

And, to warn you, his children all were messed up. This man neglected his children by not living in the world they lived in, the real world.

I do think christianity can be a good foundation for an upbringing, but I highly recommend you to focus on the goals you want to set for your kids, not to start out by relying on god, god might not be there for your kids, you will always be. Focus on the values, not the worshipping.

[DutchGuy]

Then he never asked God for forgiveness for those decisions and accepted that God did forgive him. I also have made some terrible decisions in my life who hasn't? I asked for and received forgiveness. I don't live in the past, because God said I don't have to. I have set a good foundation and the goals are clear, God first and whatever you want to achieve he will help you get there. You have to do your part and work toward them. There may be some set backs, but keep going. Have faith in Him and yourself. I have great well adjusted, normal kids. They are both believers and they follow His word, do they mess up , of course they do, just like their mom. But we know messing up is a part of life and learning, we get up and we try again. Christianity is a way that we live life. It is the way we respond to others, the way we take care of those less fortunate, and the way we praise the Lord for our everyday accomplishments and failures. In failure there are lessons that we can learn. Everything He does is for our good and His glory.

 

Do you always take one or two personal situations and judge everyone by them? I don't know your friend or what her parents did to her and her siblings, but some people actually live by the word of God, not man made religions. My children are A students, with lots of friends who are Christians and they don't try to convert anyone. They will talk about God, pray in public and lead the type of lives that have made others ask them why they are different, then they explain. They are normal in, they get pissed off, don't do their chores, let feelings control their actions and sometimes spout of in disrespect, you know what I still love them and they are still loved by God. They are my heart and they know I am not perfect, just like I know they aren't perfect.

 

And our values come from God(ten commandments)and worshipping him is a part of praise. I highly recommend that you pray more children are raised to treat others the way my children do. Thanks for your parenting tips, but I will stick to what works for us.

 

2 minor points. Firstly, those kids didn't only mess up (like everybody ofcourse) they were messed up because they weren't parented. This man put god before his family.

 

Secondly, it is not that I personally ever got harmed by religion, it is that I see the bad that follows because of religion: fanatism and extremism, discrimination, war, rape (forcing gays to have relations with people they are not attracted to), self-loathing, naiveness (and consequently being taken advantage of), isolation and the plain and simple given that (and this is ofcourse my own opinion) the whole concept of a deity is ridiculous.

I know that only a fragment of the believers is victim of these things but they do derive from religion.

 

And all the good things that Christians do are not because their god tells them to, but because they are good people themselves.

Otherwise you wouldn't be a good person but just a hypocrit who only does 'good' deeds to be rewarded by god.

I'm an Atheist, half the country is Atheist, I see good deeds being done by Atheists all the time, because they too (can) truly care.

But in no way could Atheism lead to fanatism and extremism, discrimination, war, rape, self-loathing, naiveness or isolation. If an Atheist would do something of the previously mentioned, it would be because of their own personality or political views. Not because of misinterpretation of something that is holy to him/her.

 

By the way, I'm not talking about your parenting, but more about christian upbringing in general. I don't want you to feel personally attacked.

[FleshNBones]

I'm an Atheist, half the country is Atheist, I see good deeds being done by Atheists all the time, because they too (can) truly care.

But in no way could Atheism lead to fanatism and extremism, discrimination, war, rape, self-loathing, naiveness or isolation. If an Atheist would do something of the previously mentioned, it would be because of their own personality or political views. Not because of misinterpretation of something that is holy to him/her.

 

By the way, I'm not talking about your parenting, but more about christian upbringing in general. I don't want you to feel personally attacked.

One thing Christianity teaches is humility.

 

Paul mentioned something about the circumcision of the spirit. Would you like to comment on that?

[JamesM]

But in no way could Atheism lead to fanatism and extremism, discrimination, war, rape, self-loathing, naiveness or isolation. If an Atheist would do something of the previously mentioned, it would be because of their own personality or political views. Not because of misinterpretation of something that is holy to him/her.

 

 

 

I am amazed at your ability to selectively remember history. While it is not worth arguing with someone who has no value for life (and rationalizes this by saying that life is not really life) about the sanctity of life, misinterpretation of historical facts and statistics needs to be corrected IMO for a healthy discussion.

 

We can easily bring up Hitler. No, he was not a Christian when he was reigning over Germany as a Nazi. He may have been into occult, but this is not a belief in God.

 

And then Stalin and Mao. Yep, I know. Atheists have a rebuttal to this such as...wasn't Stalin a Christian? Nope, he was raised a Christian and reversed his "belief" and became an atheist. Joseph Stalin was responsible for killing over 40 million people. Mao was responsible for killing about 72 million people.

 

And this doesn't touch the many other thousands of deaths brought about by Communism...which as a refresher is an atheistic philosophy. The loss of life from state repression and terrorism from October 1917 to December 1959 under Lenin and Stalin and Khrushchev is estimated at 66.7 million.

 

Under the rule of Pol Pot, the founder of the Communist Party of Kampuchea, Cambodia, one third of his country was put to death.

 

And your twist of statement that an atheist represents himself while a religious person who believes in God represents religion, or his misinterpretation, is a fallacy. I think it is just as easy to say that anyone who uses God as justification for killing and destruction is also doing it as a representative of his own personal beliefs or interpretations. An atheist is either doing it because he is wants power or because he hates those he kills. Stalin killed as a result of his need for complete power. Governments which have used God as their justification have done this so that they could have power over the people.

 

Using religion as a tool for power is not the same as saying that religion condones that use for power. And killing with no belief in God or stating that one has a belief in God says nothing about he belief or lack of belief in a God.

 

Read this link....

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/atrocities.html

 

 

Yes, it is a defense of God, but hey, all atheists give me links that defend that philosophy. Besides, please note that the statistics were taken from a non-Christian source which is here.

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE5.HTM

 

You are welcome to read this one, too, and obtain the same information. You may feel more comfortable as he quotes Voltaire at the top of the page.

 

Please note that more people have been killed as a result of a secular or atheistic government/leader than by a government or leader who called himself religious.

 

So, to end with a quote from the link above...

 

Yes, "Christians" have committed atrocities against other religious and non-religious people. However, atheists have committed far more atrocities than all religious groups combined. Even so, the key factor in these atrocities has been totalitarian power, rather than religion, which has resulted in these hundreds of millions of murders.

[JamesM]

 

Oh I understand what believing in god is all about, I dated a girl whose father was deeply religious,

 

With all due respect, this is not the same as understanding what believing in God is all about. It is like saying that you know the tragedies of war because you talked with a soldier.

 

And, to warn you, his children all were messed up. This man neglected his children by not living in the world they lived in, the real world.

 

Again, this is not the fault of God or religion. This is the result of poor parenting. You do have a point...one can be a good parent and not be Christian or vice versa. However, Christian parents feel it is necessary to prepare their children not only for this world but also for the world to come. This does not mean that Christians are perfect parents and non-religious parents are not.

 

As for being a part of his children's lives, this is his fault alone. While you can blame his religion, I can easily come up with examples in my own past of children whose father was a workaholic. They never knew him, and they were "messed up" as a result.

 

BTW, how can a monk be a parent? Isn't part of being a monk having to be chaste and abstaining from sex?

 

I do think christianity can be a good foundation for an upbringing, but I highly recommend you to focus on the goals you want to set for your kids, not to start out by relying on god, god might not be there for your kids, you will always be. Focus on the values, not the worshipping.

 

Since I believe that there is a God and that God is immortal, then it follows that no, I will not always be there for my children, but God will be.

 

Even if I was not a believer in God, then I certainly would not believe that I will always be there. As I type, I clearly remember a case where the parents were killed in a plane crash while the child survived. His parents had better not have taught him your philosophy or he will be disillusioned by all that they taught him.

 

Parenting has two parts IMO...parenting for today and this life, and preparing our children for the world to come.

If you do not believe in that world, then so be it. But a Christian parent cannot simply "leave God out of it."

[DutchGuy]

One thing Christianity teaches is humility.

 

Paul mentioned something about the circumcision of the spirit. Would you like to comment on that?

 

Humility in what sense? That you claim to know more about life than scientists do, only because a book gives you a fuzzy feeling?

Or humility in the sense that you truly believe you are important enough for a deity to personally coach, guide and save you? Important enough to be kept in heaven for all eternity?

Don't you think that that is at least a bit arrogant?

 

Circumcision of the spirit, as in 'without god your life is empty'?

My life is fuller than that of a believer. Because I only have my life. I don't get to live forever. My eternity is these (hopefully) 80-90 years or so I get. Therefore I don't want to spend my life in war or pain, I want to live, find love and die happy.

I know beleivers think Atheists are negative, but that is because you only see us in debate, where we have to focus on negative points of religion to make our point. I mean, saying that a life without a god is pointless is pretty damn negative too you know.

Most believers are poor, uneducated and suppressed. Most Atheists live in freedom, are educated and wealthy... do you really think this is because we sold our souls to the devil? I might dare to say that Atheists are among the happiest people on this very planet.