Proof that God exists (for agnostics/athiests)

[FleshNBones]

Because ethnic cleansing never happened in the Bible...nor did it happen in former Yugoslavia. Nor anywhere else actually. It's only possible in the context of atheism.

 

People say the daftest things...

 

Cheers,

D.

Do you seriously believe that nonsense, or are you just trying to stir things up?

 

What happened in Yugoslavia was about money, land, and a good old fashoned feud.

[marlena]

nor did it happen in former Yugoslavia.

 

Well, I don't think that the Serbian or Bosnian Muslims would agree with you. Nor would the Christian Orthodox Serbs for that matter.

 

What happened in Yugoslavia was about money, land, and a good old fashoned feud.

 

No, it was not a good old fashioned feud. It was a religious and ethnic war. It was a bloody civil war that decimated the country into pieces. People were forced to leave their homes if they mamaged to survive.

 

The real question is: who ignites the hatred?

[disgracian]

Do you seriously believe that nonsense, or are you just trying to stir things up?

Jews committing genocide to claim their promised land does not qualify as ethnic cleansing? Systematic extermination of another group in accordance with their primitive god's will. That is far from nonsense; it is undeniable. Your only recourse is to try to justify it somehow by saying they deserved it for being wicked.

What happened in Yugoslavia was about money, land, and a good old fashoned feud.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugoslav_wars

 

Learn.

 

Cheers,

D.

[FleshNBones]

Jews committing genocide to claim their promised land does not qualify as ethnic cleansing? Systematic extermination of another group in accordance with their primitive god's will. That is far from nonsense; it is undeniable. Your only recourse is to try to justify it somehow by saying they deserved it for being wicked.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugoslav_wars

 

Learn.

 

Cheers,

D.

Try to imagine me trying to take all of your property, and possessions. To achieve my goal, I would need to drive you off or kill you. If I kill you, I would also need to kill your wife and your children so I wouldn't need to deal with them in the future.

This sort of thing also happened in Israel. Homes, businesses, utilities, and above all, land were siezed.

 

Conquerors did this sort of thing in the past. They didn't do it for Zeus, they did it for loot, and prestige. Julius Caesar became emperor using the prestige. Rome was able to maintain a high standandard of living using slaves, and the loot they obtained from conquest.

 

I called it a feud because it is very much like the feud between the Hatfield and McCoys.

[marlena]

Try to imagine me trying to take all of your property, and possessions. To achieve my goal, I would need to drive you off or kill you. If I kill you, I would also need to kill your wife and your children so I wouldn't need to deal with them in the future.

This sort of thing also happened in Israel. Homes, businesses, utilities, and above all, land were siezed.

 

 

Actually this is what the Israelis did to the Palestinians.

 

No, dropping bombs on people is not a feud. Not by any stretch of the imagination.

[FleshNBones]

Actually this is what the Israelis did to the Palestinians.

I know.

No, dropping bombs on people is not a feud. Not by any stretch of the imagination.

How many Rabbis led the charge?

[marlena]

How many Rabbis led the charge?

 

I meant the bombs in Sarajevo, Mostar, Belgrade.

[JamesM]

Studies have shown that on the whole, wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. The article I quoted is accurate. If you don't think so, feel free to provide an example of where the equations and conclusions are wrong.

 

"Studies have shown...." Ah, that famous saying that is quite vague. I am not personally stating that the info presented is not accurate, but "studies" have also shown that wikipedia is only as accurate as the people who currently have posted the information.

 

Perhaps if I help you by presenting an article that shows this to be possible. As someone here told me, links do help...

http://news.cnet.com/Study-Wikipedia-as-accurate-as-Britannica/2100-1038_3-5997332.html

 

Notice that wikipedia is "about" as accurate.

Wikipedia is about as good a source of accurate information as Britannica, the venerable standard-bearer of facts about the world around us, according to a study published this week in the journal Nature.

 

Here is an individual who had a false biography posted about him on wikipedia. Do you think HE trusts the information there?

http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/editorials/2005-11-29-wikipedia-edit_x.htm

 

Here is an article by an educator who warns against wikipedia due to the inaccuracy...

http://www.powertolearn.com/articles/teaching_with_technology/article.shtml?ID=12

 

But For some reason, I have this recollection that you mentioned the inaccuracy of it when someone posted a response with which you disagreed. Perhaps I am wrong.

 

Quoting a Creationist site as if it has correct information regarding evolution is quite different. I have pointed out the error in those cases.

 

Oooh, the zinger! And it is no less silly to expect accurate information from an atheist site regarding theism.

 

Good try, though.

 

Didn't know I was trying anything, but thanks.

[JamesM]

No, it is not fallacious. Any totalitarian regime is capable of, and more often than not engages in genocide or atrocities. The "atheist" regimes persecuted free-thought as well, which would include 99,999% of all atheists living today, I should think.

 

First off, surely you did not read the quote you posted from me. Then it becomes clear that it IS a fallacy. Let me repeat....

 

Blaming wars and atrocities only on religion and a belief in God is a fallacy.

 

And you said that it is not a fallacy to blame wars and atrocities ONLY on religion and a belief in God??

 

The fact is that history shows that people use whatever tool will help them gain or retain power over others.

 

As far as religions go, there have been so many religious wars it would be impossible to list them all. The Crusades leap to mind.

 

I do not disagree, but when we go back to the link I showed a few posts back, we see that religious wars do not outnumber "non-religious" wars. And we also see that many so-called religious wars used religion as an excuse for their war when it was not the actual motivation for the war.

 

Christianity itself was spread at the point of a sword.

 

Really? Perhaps you forgot to read early church history which begins in the Bible. And when we go back and read Roman history, we see that Christians were persecuted even as their numbers grew. So in one sense, you are correct, due to the point of the sword, many became Christians. However, it was not the Christians who were wielding the sword.

 

Why are these examples relevant? Because unlike Pol Pot or Stalin or Mao, these events are a direct result of religious belief, while in the aforementioned cases atheism was but a component.

 

And religion was but a component as well. Millions living then and now decry the abhorrence of these wars and actions. The fact that religion was supposedly used does not invalidate the beliefs. One would have to say that if religion bred atrocities, then we would see the majority of people committing atrocities in the name of religion. But instead we see many, many people committing acts of good will in the name of religion. The abnormality is when people use religion for evil.

 

Hitler was raised Catholic, and while in later life he had issues with Christianity he never renounced his Catholicism

 

And do you then believe that Hitler's motivation for the spread of Nazism and the exaltation of the Aryan race was Catholicism? It would be an extreme revision of history if you did.

 

Based on his upbringing, we can say that he did it to destroy fatherhood. Serious...read below from wikipedia...

 

Hitler said that, as a boy, he was often beaten by his father. Years later he told his secretary, "I then resolved never again to cry when my father whipped me. A few days later I had the opportunity of putting my will to the test. My mother, frightened, took refuge in the front of the door. As for me, I counted silently the blows of the stick which lashed my rear end."[

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler

 

So, we can see that his whole reason for war was to destroy as many men/fathers as he could. It is just as ridiculous as it is to blame Catholicism for the destruction of the Jews by Hitler.

 

And he was anti-semitic for racist reasons...not religious reasons. Read again from wikipedia....

 

Hitler claims in Mein Kampf that his transition from opposing anti-Semitism on religious grounds to supporting it on racial grounds came from having seen an Orthodox Jew:

“ There were very few Jews in Linz. In the course of centuries the Jews who lived there had become Europeanized in external appearance and were so much like other human beings that I even looked upon them as Germans. The reason why I did not then perceive the absurdity of such an illusion was that the only external mark which I recognized as distinguishing them from us was the practice of their strange religion. As I thought that they were persecuted on account of their faith my aversion to hearing remarks against them grew almost into a feeling of abhorrence. I did not in the least suspect that there could be such a thing as a systematic anti-Semitism.

 

Once, when passing through the inner City, I suddenly encountered a phenomenon in a long caftan and wearing black side-locks. My first thought was: Is this a Jew? They certainly did not have this appearance in Linz. I carefully watched the man stealthily and cautiously but the longer I gazed at the strange countenance and examined it feature by feature, the more the question shaped itself in my brain: Is this a German?[14]

 

Why did he kill the Jews then? Was it to promote religion or was it to promote the Aryan race? History says it was racism.

 

And the Jews were used as a scapegoat to unite the Germans.

 

and the Catholic Church actually helped high-ranking Nazis escape from Europe.

 

Distinction, please. Individuals who were Catholics as well as individuals who were Protestant and individuals who were neither all helped high-ranking GERMANS escape from Europe. Nationalism was alive and well.

 

Germans learned their antisemitism in CHURCH. Martin Luther wrote a book called, "The Jews and Their Lies" in 1543. That's 390 years before Hitler took power.

 

Thanks for doing the math. Was this book read in Church? Did the Catholics read Luther's book? Highly unlikely. So it is also unlikely that the Germans learned their anti-semitism in Church. It is much more likely that they learned it from Hitler and his cronies who wanted to "cleanse" the Aryan race.

 

Actually, it is much more likely that the Germans were not really anti-semitic as a whole but simply following the lead of their government. If the Nazis had chosen the Arabs as the scapegoat, then history would have been so different.

 

Look up what a "pogrom" is. The Jews were being slaughtered by Christians long before Hitler came around--he was just the one who built factories for that purpose.

 

Yes, and Caligula slaughtered both Jews and Christians. Muslims slaughtered Jews. And Jews were massacred due to the fear of the Black Plague. So you are saying that Hitler was okay in what he did because he was doing what everyone else did? He was no worse than others?

 

Sorry...doesn't fly. His motivation was not religion or a belief in God.

 

People are killing each other because of religious beliefs RIGHT NOW.

 

Yes, and people are killing each other for money, too. Point?

 

The instances of religious violence and persecution are relevant because the vast majority of believers make the argument that without belief in their god/gods mankind would be immoral and destroy itself. Objective fact not only shows this to be false, but that THE REVERSE IS TRUE.

 

And the reverse has not been shown to be true either. Put an atheist in charge of a country and it has not been proven to be true. Stalin and Pol Pot were not good little doobies, were they? As you well know, many people use religion as a tool when inwardly they have no use for God.

 

The argument is made that without god one cannot be happy. Studies show that THE REVERSE IS TRUE.

 

Perhaps you have a link to those studies?

 

Honestly, I had to read this twice to see if you really said this. As I spit my coffee out, I realized that coffee studies are a great example of the fallacy of your statements. Coffee has been shown to be both good and bad for you...depending on the study.

 

The argument is made that religion (usually Christianity) makes people peaceful and evidence shows that THE REVERSE IS TRUE.

 

What evidence? The list of wars? And why have you been capitalizing your "THE REVERSE IS TRUE?" Does this make it more true?

 

Keep reading Dawkins and Hitchens and you will be reinforced in those REVERSES, but if you go back and focus on all of history, then the evidence shows that the reverse is not true.

 

 

I haven't done the math, but it may be true that Communist regimes have killed more people than religious ones, but if that is the case it is because of technology, not will. Imagine how many more would have been tortured and killed if the Inquisition had access to 20th century weapons technology!

 

This made me laugh. Yeah, imagine if Nero had today's weapon when he massacred the Christians. Imagine if Hitler had today's weapons when he tried to take over the world. (Actually he came close to developing them...imagine.) Imagine if the Germans had nuclear weapons against the French. Imagine if the Vandals had nuclear weapons when they invaded Rome. Imagine if Rome had Nuclear weapons when they invaded Israel. Imagine if Egypt.... And so it goes on and on. This is an absurd statement if I could say so.

 

I shudder to think what the number swill be when groups like the Taliban or Dominionists get a nuclear bomb. They'll pass the Communists for sure, I think. And that should be prevented at all costs, IMO.

 

Do you truly shudder? And do you know what another big fear is? Korea using nuclear weapons. Any group that has radical beliefs should make you shudder. And can you imagine if the atheists had the ability to destroy all theists? Simply to make this a better world...in their opinion?

 

We should all shudder.

[electric_sheep]

Lets just say we don't know what caused matter, time and space.

 

Correct.

 

But what we do know is that whatever created them was immensly powerful and extremely intelligent.

 

No we don't. In fact, we know nothing about this at all.

 

I'll leave aside the obvious contradiction here... that by stating "whatever" "created" space/time, you are implying there was "something" (matter?) BEFORE space/time. Before implying that... the point which you call absolute time, that is, time = 0, was not the original point, because things and events existed before then.

[electric_sheep]

Well, you have two choices (and they're both scientific and religious), you either came from nothing, or somebody created you - simple.

 

No, it's not simple.

 

You really presume to think that we... scrawny, inferior beings, located on this third rock from the Sun, one of billions, can so easily understand something as unfathomable as existence?

 

We either "came from nothing", or "somebody created us"? Both statements are nebulous and slip through the fingers. Who is this somebody? Who created him/her? You're "answer" isn't even an answer, it's just an appeal to stop asking questions.

 

I think it's preposterous for us to think we can so easily figure out the nature of existence, when we havn't even figured out far simpler things.

 

Nobody has any idea. In all likelihood no one has ever even coming close to understanding it. In all likelihood no one COULD even understand, if the "answer" was shown to them. Or understand it any better than a blind person can understand what it is like to see.

[electric_sheep]

The universe may well have been created by some being. But you cannot take that as proof that the judeo-christian god of the bible therefore exists.

 

Ha! True enough.

 

Though what I want to know is why we dismiss concepts like "time without a beginning" and "infinity", but we have no problem with the idea of "some dude" creating the universe?

 

Anyway, good point... this "God" could be a real a-hole. A real sadistic psychopath. Some would argue there is at least a little bit of evidence to suggest that.

 

Fact is... even if we believe in a God, we still know nothing about this God, unless you are willing to believe those that say this book or that was written/inspired by him (Book of Mormon, Koran, whatever...).

 

One thing that always bothered me... it seems life cannot exist without causing misery and pain to other life, whether it be vegetable or animal (yes! I question the presumptuous idea that the hierarchy of intelligence must somehow coincide with the hierarchy of the "worthiness" of life. Why not accept all life as worthy?). Anyhow... I always thought this "design" feature to be quite sadistic, if I do say so myself.

[andysw]

3,400 years ago, which is about 1,400 BC before Christ, the Israelites were commanded to march around the city of Jericho, the city of the moon, 6 times over the course of 6 days as documented in the book of Joshua chapter 6.

 

Every time they circle Jericho they march 360 degress for a grand total of 2,160 degress (360 degress X 6 days = 2,160 degress). It's now known today that the exact diameter of the moon is 2,160 miles.

 

Pretty cool, isn't it?

 

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b26/Andysw/svasv-Copy-1.jpg

 

If this was passed down off as a small coincidence, then tell me how is it that the most important building (the white house) in the entire world is at the bottom of a giant satan pentagram? The God of the bible says that satan is the ruler of the world. It's no small coincidence that the world's governmental superpower, the United States of America, has its headquarters at the world's largest satan pentagram.

 

One last thing I like to say, JamesM, I never said that evolution was true. If God was real evolution can't be true.

[FleshNBones]

Ha! True enough.

 

Though what I want to know is why we dismiss concepts like "time without a beginning" and "infinity", but we have no problem with the idea of "some dude" creating the universe?

 

Anyway, good point... this "God" could be a real a-hole. A real sadistic psychopath. Some would argue there is at least a little bit of evidence to suggest that.

 

Fact is... even if we believe in a God, we still know nothing about this God, unless you are willing to believe those that say this book or that was written/inspired by him (Book of Mormon, Koran, whatever...).

 

One thing that always bothered me... it seems life cannot exist without causing misery and pain to other life, whether it be vegetable or animal (yes! I question the presumptuous idea that the hierarchy of intelligence must somehow coincide with the hierarchy of the "worthiness" of life. Why not accept all life as worthy?). Anyhow... I always thought this "design" feature to be quite sadistic, if I do say so myself.

Scientists already dismissed the idea of time without a beginning. The evidence (real evidence) does not support it.

 

What is clear, is that the search for God must be done at the individual level. You must search for and serve him. The Bible is only an aid.

 

Sadistic? We are supposed to respect life, especially human life, and give thanks to the Lord. Remember, they are also his creations.

Do you think this life is the only life?

[FleshNBones]

No, it's not simple.

 

You really presume to think that we... scrawny, inferior beings, located on this third rock from the Sun, one of billions, can so easily understand something as unfathomable as existence?

 

We either "came from nothing", or "somebody created us"? Both statements are nebulous and slip through the fingers. Who is this somebody? Who created him/her? You're "answer" isn't even an answer, it's just an appeal to stop asking questions.

 

I think it's preposterous for us to think we can so easily figure out the nature of existence, when we havn't even figured out far simpler things.

 

Nobody has any idea. In all likelihood no one has ever even coming close to understanding it. In all likelihood no one COULD even understand, if the "answer" was shown to them. Or understand it any better than a blind person can understand what it is like to see.

The universe started from an infinitesimaly small point. What is your point?

 

This goes back to the "tortise shells all the way" analogy. You can argue that the world sits on the shell of a tortie, and that tortise sits on top of an infinitely tall stack of tortises. There is a breaking point, and if you do not recognize it, too bad.

 

What you are looking for is easy answers. There are no easy answers.

Trying to discredit people like me as being blind won't bring you any closer.

[FleshNBones]

No we don't. In fact, we know nothing about this at all.

 

I'll leave aside the obvious contradiction here... that by stating "whatever" "created" space/time, you are implying there was "something" (matter?) BEFORE space/time. Before implying that... the point which you call absolute time, that is, time = 0, was not the original point, because things and events existed before then.

You aren't making sense again. An event is something that exists within time so it cannot exist before time. The big bang was probably the first event.

All matter vibrates (a function in time). Electrons exist in orbital shells. It is the interaction of these electron shell that gives you the sense of matter. If there is no vibration in the computer in front of you, then you can push your hand through it like it was never there. It wouldn't be visible. No vibration means no energy, and no mass. It wouldn't exist now would it. If you eliminate time, then there would be no vibration.

[J2FT1]

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b26/Andysw/svasv-Copy-1.jpg

 

If this was passed down off as a small coincidence, then tell me how is it that the most important building (the white house) in the entire world is at the bottom of a giant satan pentagram? The God of the bible says that satan is the ruler of the world. It's no small coincidence that the world's governmental superpower, the United States of America, has its headquarters at the world's largest satan pentagram.

 

One last thing I like to say, JamesM, I never said that evolution was true. If God was real evolution can't be true.

 

So since China is going to "rule" the world in a few decades, what will happen to the words in the bible? Will you find another star in china?

[andysw]

So since China is going to "rule" the world in a few decades, what will happen to the words in the bible? Will you find another star in china?

 

What's your point? What's china got to do with the united states of america? What you just pointed out was strawman. Stick with the same topic next time before moving to others. Have you even click on the link?

 

It's no coincidence that the world's governmental superpower is under the world's largest satan pentagram.

[annieo]

No, it's not simple.

 

You really presume to think that we... scrawny, inferior beings, located on this third rock from the Sun, one of billions, can so easily understand something as unfathomable as existence?

 

We either "came from nothing", or "somebody created us"? Both statements are nebulous and slip through the fingers. Who is this somebody? Who created him/her? You're "answer" isn't even an answer, it's just an appeal to stop asking questions.

 

I think it's preposterous for us to think we can so easily figure out the nature of existence, when we havn't even figured out far simpler things.

 

Nobody has any idea. In all likelihood no one has ever even coming close to understanding it. In all likelihood no one COULD even understand, if the "answer" was shown to them. Or understand it any better than a blind person can understand what it is like to see.

 

That is the best description of god that I have ever seen expressed in my life. Unknowable, unfathomable, we don't have the senses for it in our bodies, and only some of us, for fleeting moments, in our soul's mind, if we are lucky.

[J2FT1]

What's your point? What's china got to do with the united states of america? What you just pointed out was strawman. Stick with the same topic next time before moving to others. Have you even click on the link?

 

It's no coincidence that the world's governmental superpower is under the world's largest satan pentagram.

 

I'm saying that your point is absurd because it's not consistent with reality. America was not always the superpower. What about the past? Does the "Satan rules the world" thing only apply now? When the British were the superpower of the world, did they have a satan pentagram in their governmental buildings? Basically What I'm trying to say is that your theory only applies to the present, not the past or future.

[J2FT1]

That is the best description of god that I have ever seen expressed in my life. Unknowable, unfathomable, we don't have the senses for it in our bodies, and only some of us, for fleeting moments, in our soul's mind, if we are lucky.

 

This makes me laugh. Seriously.

 

First of all, how do you know she was talking about a god.

second of all, if you agree that god is not fathomable, then why do you read the bible. Why do christians rely on a bible? The bible seems to know god pretty well.

[andysw]

This makes me laugh. Seriously.

 

First of all, how do you know she was talking about a god.

second of all, if you agree that god is not fathomable, then why do you read the bible. Why do christians rely on a bible? The bible seems to know god pretty well.

 

Christians rely on the bible because the bible preserves God's word and it is the "basic instructions before leaving earth". Why do you rely on a science textbook?

[Enema]

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b26/Andysw/svasv-Copy-1.jpg

 

If this was passed down off as a small coincidence, then tell me how is it that the most important building (the white house) in the entire world is at the bottom of a giant satan pentagram? The God of the bible says that satan is the ruler of the world. It's no small coincidence that the world's governmental superpower, the United States of America, has its headquarters at the world's largest satan pentagram.

 

One last thing I like to say, JamesM, I never said that evolution was true. If God was real evolution can't be true.

 

Hey guys check this out: http://img258.imageshack.us/my.php?image=whitehousejesusvr0.jpg

 

Tell me how it is that the most important building in the entire world is Jesus' mouth?

 

Clearly, this means that God is pleased with the United States of America and especially the politicians in the whitehouse. amirite?

[J2FT1]

Christians rely on the bible because the bible preserves God's word and it is the "basic instructions before leaving earth". Why do you rely on a science textbook?

 

It seems like when you read a post, you forget about everything beforehand.

 

1. Someone earlier said that god is "unfathomable."

2. Someone else then said "this is how I feel about god"

3. I said, "well if this is how you feel about God, then why do you read the bible, it seems to know god pretty well."

4. Now you say "well we read it because it's god's word."

 

How does this make sense? If god is so great that he's beyond comprehension, why does the bible even have his words? Shouldn't we know NOTHING about him?

[andysw]

Hey guys check this out: http://img258.imageshack.us/my.php?image=whitehousejesusvr0.jpg

 

Tell me how it is that the most important building in the entire world is Jesus' mouth?

 

Clearly, this means that God is pleased with the United States of America and especially the politicians in the whitehouse. amirite?

 

You clearly given out for what's called strawman. You've clearly missed out the road paths by covering them with white. Mine is more realistic than your awful art and doesn't contradict it in any way. You could still highlight all the other roads that I missed out. But that doesn't make any much different and it's still a satan pentagram.

 

If you're going to continue posting anymore immature replies like you did prior to your last one then you are not worth to debate with and I can't take you seriously.