Proof that God exists (for agnostics/athiests)

[Enema]

Who created God? The question itself is a fallacy; it doesn't make sense. How can God be created? He wouldn't be God if He was created. He always existed. You might ask how could God always existed? Where did He come from? If He always existed He didn't come from any where. He's always been there. And you might ask how is that possible? Fair question. There is a general principle that says either everything came from nothing or something always existed and created everything that is created. You have no other choice. So which is it? Did everything come from nothing? Or did something that always existed did? Which is it?

 

If you're on a side of logic you will certainly agree that nothing can only make nothing. So something that always existed created everything. And whatever created everything always existed. So if something always existed then the universe, matter, time and space has always existed and we don't need to invoke God into the equation. Here's the problem with that. To claim the universe is eternal (always existed and always will) is to apply properties of infinity to the universe.

 

Lets try to apply properties of infinity or eternality to matter, time and space and if it can be shown that matter, time and space could not be eternal or infinite that means they are created by something that is not made of matter, time and space which would then have the properties of God (being immaterial, eternal and omnipresent).

 

Lets start by showing that matter, time and space cannot be eternal. Time is the measure of changes in matter. Imagine flicking a light switch once. If I'm going to say that I will give you a chocolate bar after you flicked a light switch an infinite amount of times will I ever give you the chocolate bar? No, because you can't flick an infinite amount of times and you'll go 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.... and you'll go on forever and you'll never reach infinity and you will always have a finite amount of switch flicks. You cannot have an infinite amount of finite things. So time had a beginning because we know that there couldn't have been an infinite amount of time before right now. That's simply logical. Could there have been an infinate amount of changes because time is the measure of change. Could there have been an infinate amount of change between two events? Like the chocolate bar example. Could I give you something between now and an event in the future when there's an infinite amount of changes time in between the two events? No, of course not. That means there couldn't have been an infinite amount of time (changes) before right now because we would never have reached this moment in time.

 

If time is finite which means time (change) had a beginning and you can't have matter without time because if you have matter when do you put it? But there's another way that matter can't be infinite either. It's the same way as using the light switch there can't be an infinite amount of finite things then all we need to do is show you that matter itself is finite. Take the nearest object to you (in my case a mouse). How many time would I have to multiply, subtract, add or divide my mouse against itself in order to reach infinity? Lets try it, I have 1 mouse, and now I have 2 mouses, and now I have 3 mouses, etc. How many time will I have to do this in order to reach infinity? The answer is I would never reach infinity for the same reason you can't flick a light switch an infinite amount of times. That proofs that there's only a finite amount of matter because you can't have an infinite amount of finite things.

 

So, we know that matter and time are finite which means they had a beginning. They're created and they cannot be infinite which means space cannot cannot be infinate because space is only the measure of the distance between matter and if matter seized to exist they'd be a vacuum they'd be no space. If matter is finite that means space is finite there's only a finite distance between the two farthest peices of matter in all of reality.

 

So now we know matter, time and space are finite. They're not infinate for they're not eternal. That means they had a beginning. So what created matter, time and space? If you exist without time and time is the measure of changes you never change that means there's no past, future there's only an eternal now and that's exactly what the bible says Hebrews 13:8 "God is the same yesterday, today and forever" because He has never changed and He will never change. He is God, He is eternal, He has always been. Has it ever occured to you that nothing ever occured to God? The past, present and future are all one. And that is why God knows the future because He is eternal and exists outside of time.

 

If you exist without matter that means you are immaterial. You can't be touched, smelled, tasted, or seen. You are not made of matter.

 

If you exist without space that means you are inspacial or omnipresent, you are every where. You're not bound by spacial restrictions.

 

So, something, and we know this is a fact, because we know that matter, time and space were created and the only thing that can create matter, time and space is by something that exists without matter, time and space because if they exist with matter, time and space then matter, time and space wouldn't be created. So, we know matter, time and space were created by something that exists without matter, time and space and to exist without matter, time and space means you are eternal, omnipresent and immaterial. Which are the very traits of God.

 

So, something that always existed that is invisible and untouchable and is every where created matter, time and space. What does that sound like to you?

 

The only question left is which God is it? How can we know which religion is true? God exists without matter, time and space which means God knows the future and is everywhere. The bible is a book and it predicts the future thousands of times and no other religious books or scripture in the world predicts the future like the bible does. Isaiah 46:9-10 "I am God and there is no one like me declaring the end from the beginning". That is proof that the bible is written by God because men do not know the future but the bible does.

 

Your post is giving me crazy deja vu.

 

http://youtube.com/watch?v=RQTALEIMRKY

 

Couldn't find the site you stole it from, but wow... way to think for yourself.

 

I'm not even going to bother responding to the points. You didn't write them so you wouldn't understand the answers anyway.

[andysw]

Your post is giving me crazy deja vu.

 

http://youtube.com/watch?v=RQTALEIMRKY

 

Couldn't find the site you stole it from, but wow... way to think for yourself.

 

I'm not even going to bother responding to the points. You didn't write them so you wouldn't understand the answers anyway.

 

I did that because I can't trust people like you watching these kinds of video and respond without knowing half of the content. And no you're wrong, I did understood it. It's just you don't - we both agree on that.

 

Like I said from I earlier comment, it doesn't matter whether these are from me or not. What's important is that people get the message.

[disgracian]

Like I said from I earlier comment, it doesn't matter whether these are from me or not. What's important is that people get the message.

It actually does matter, from two different standpoints:

 

1. Legal: since you're not citing your sources or giving credit (or, more accurately, "blame") you're actually opening yourself and loveshack up to legal action if any of the people you steal content from decide to jump up and down and make a big deal of it.

 

2. Discussion: since they're not your words then there's no point discussing them with you. Either you can stand on your own two feet and speak your own mind or you can't, and if it's the latter then I for one have no interest in talking to you on any topic.

 

Cheers,

D.

[electric_sheep]

Who created God? The question itself is a fallacy; it doesn't make sense. How can God be created? He wouldn't be God if He was created. He always existed. You might ask how could God always existed? Where did He come from? If He always existed He didn't come from any where. He's always been there. And you might ask how is that possible? Fair question. There is a general principle that says either everything came from nothing or something always existed and created everything that is created. You have no other choice. So which is it? Did everything come from nothing? Or did something that always existed did? Which is it?

 

I'd argue that either possibility is essentially beyond our ability as human beings to fathom. Seriously. Take a second and actually THINK about it. "something always existed"... This requires that we grapple with that pesky notion of infinity again. "If I agree to give you a chocolate bar in an infinite amount of time..." A clear understanding and intuitive grasp of infinity simply eludes me. Mathematicians have spent a lot of time wrestling with infinity, indeed there is a mathematics of infinity of sorts. I'm actually somewhat familiar with this, having spend a year of graduate school in mathematics, but I must say... to understand it as it applies to mathematical concepts is one thing, but it still eludes any sort of intrinsic understanding. It will always be a slippery concept, and it just seems, well... impossible. Same thing applies to the other option... "something from nothing". I can actually understand the CONCEPT of this better, in some ways, but it appears to be no less possible to me. Probably because of my science background, and I have no personal experience of ever having seen, or ever heard of, something coming from nothing. So, I must admit I simply can't form a solid and complete understanding of either.

 

What good are "answers" if you can't understand them?

And if you can't really understand your "answer", is it even an answer?

 

Almost all of these philosophical arguments "proving" or "disproving" God just seem juvenile in how they gleefully gloss over the details. I guess the idea is to convince the people who WANT to be convinced, not the people who want to really THINK about it.

 

Hasn't it occurred to you, that the worlds best and brightest minds, the worlds greatest philosophers, have attempted to "proof" or "disproof" the existence of God for quite a while now. Even the idea of a "proof" is a slippery one if the system is of any complexity at all. It took Alfred Whitehead an entire book to proof 1 + 1 = 2, hee hee. Are you guys aware of Godels Incompleteness theorems, which more or less validated the idea of epistemological nihilism? Our entire notion of "certainty" probably needs rethinking.

 

Do you really think if someone had proved or disproved the existance of God to everyone's satisfaction, that we wouldn't have heard of it by now? Intelligent people have been known to take either stance.

 

Negating peoples personal experiences and intuition, there simply is incomplete evidence, which is why people still argue about it today. At some point you have to reach outside of science and "logic" and just take a stance on the issue. Unless, of course, you are an agnostic, like me.

 

I only mention all this to simply remind the fellow thread participants of the inherent absurdity of the thread. Go ahead and practice your rhetorical skills though, or vent your frustration, or whatever. That can be of value to. If I underestimate your philosophical chutzpah, and you guys really do stumble on an air-tight proof or disproof of God, let me know. I know a physics professor (and part time philosopher) that would be very interested in looking it over.

[Haloandhorns85]

Let's start here. The Bible no where states the age of the earth. It does say that God created in six days and rested on the seventh, but it does not give an age.

 

 

How do you, or anyone, know how long a day in God's time really is compared to our time? A full day for us may be 24 hrs, but that's because that's how God created it. Remember, He spoke light and there was light and He called this Day (Genisis 1.3-1.5)? A day for the Lord may have been 1,000 years or 10,000 yrs or even 100,000 yrs in our time. And who's to say in the day He created the beasts that roam our planet, He didn't create the dinosaurs? Then destroy them and create humans in His image. I'm sure the Bible does not contain every little thing that God decided to do or not do in addition to a detailed timeline. It's called faith for a reason.

[NoIDidn't]

Negating peoples personal experiences and intuition, there simply is incomplete evidence, which is why people still argue about it today. At some point you have to reach outside of science and "logic" and just take a stance on the issue. Unless, of course, you are an agnostic, like me.

 

I was laughing until I read the following:

 

I only mention all this to simply remind the fellow thread participants of the inherent absurdity of the thread. Go ahead and practice your rhetorical skills though, or vent your frustration, or whatever. That can be of value to. If I underestimate your philosophical chutzpah, and you guys really do stumble on an air-tight proof or disproof of God, let me know. I know a physics professor (and part time philosopher) that would be very interested in looking it over.

 

What is the point of telling someone that their argument is pointless and then joining in the fray? LOL.

[electric_sheep]

What is the point of telling someone that their argument is pointless and then joining in the fray? LOL.

 

I want to practice my rhetorical skills too.

And of course, then there is boredom.

[FleshNBones]

I'd argue that either possibility is essentially beyond our ability as human beings to fathom. Seriously. Take a second and actually THINK about it. "something always existed"... This requires that we grapple with that pesky notion of infinity again. "If I agree to give you a chocolate bar in an infinite amount of time..." A clear understanding and intuitive grasp of infinity simply eludes me. Mathematicians have spent a lot of time wrestling with infinity, indeed there is a mathematics of infinity of sorts. I'm actually somewhat familiar with this, having spend a year of graduate school in mathematics, but I must say... to understand it as it applies to mathematical concepts is one thing, but it still eludes any sort of intrinsic understanding. It will always be a slippery concept, and it just seems, well... impossible. Same thing applies to the other option... "something from nothing". I can actually understand the CONCEPT of this better, in some ways, but it appears to be no less possible to me. Probably because of my science background, and I have no personal experience of ever having seen, or ever heard of, something coming from nothing. So, I must admit I simply can't form a solid and complete understanding of either.

universe has no physical boundary, but it is still finite.

 

With infinite time, creation will take infinitely long to occur. We know it can't take infinitely long.

 

Beware of the infinite tortise shell argument because it is not a real answer.

Here are some examples.

- The Moon orbits the Earth, and the Earth orbits the sun, and the sun orbits a small cluser of stars, and that cluster orbits in a galaxy, and that galaxy orbits around a group of galaxies, and that so on and so forth.

- You can take matter and split it up into basic atoms. Those atoms can be further divided into protons, neutrons, and electrons. Those can be broken down into quarks. Those quarks can broken down deeper and deeper.

- Our universe was spawned by another universe, and that universe was spawned from another universe. It is universes all the way down.

 

Throwing in words like infinity reeks with tortise shells.

What good are "answers" if you can't understand them?

And if you can't really understand your "answer", is it even an answer?

By your own admission, you don't understand it so how can your answers be any more relevant?

 

Almost all of these philosophical arguments "proving" or "disproving" God just seem juvenile in how they gleefully gloss over the details. I guess the idea is to convince the people who WANT to be convinced, not the people who want to really THINK about it.

 

Hasn't it occurred to you, that the worlds best and brightest minds, the worlds greatest philosophers, have attempted to "proof" or "disproof" the existence of God for quite a while now. Even the idea of a "proof" is a slippery one if the system is of any complexity at all. It took Alfred Whitehead an entire book to proof 1 + 1 = 2, hee hee. Are you guys aware of Godels Incompleteness theorems, which more or less validated the idea of epistemological nihilism? Our entire notion of "certainty" probably needs rethinking.

Don't care.

 

Do you really think if someone had proved or disproved the existance of God to everyone's satisfaction, that we wouldn't have heard of it by now? Intelligent people have been known to take either stance.

 

Negating peoples personal experiences and intuition, there simply is incomplete evidence, which is why people still argue about it today. At some point you have to reach outside of science and "logic" and just take a stance on the issue. Unless, of course, you are an agnostic, like me.

There are people, who by their nature, will only determine if something is real through firsthand experience. They may even doubt that experience without corroborating evidence in triplicate, notarized, and with plenty of what they consider creditable witnesses and authorities. To make matters worse, they would periodically go through this exercise because they will start doubting the experience. Would you put up with this?

To make matters worse, there are people who lie and exaggerate. They outnumber people who had the real experience.

There is also the issue of corruption. By their nature, they tend to be at or near the top AKA authority figures. Science is not pure and neither is the Church.

 

The only defense by believers against this is to make every effort to preserve what is available. They try to preserve the Bible, ancient relics, and various sites.

In science, they constantly test and retest their theories.

I only mention all this to simply remind the fellow thread participants of the inherent absurdity of the thread. Go ahead and practice your rhetorical skills though, or vent your frustration, or whatever. That can be of value to. If I underestimate your philosophical chutzpah, and you guys really do stumble on an air-tight proof or disproof of God, let me know. I know a physics professor (and part time philosopher) that would be very interested in looking it over.

You are a student. Your university does not recognize you as an authority, and neither do I.

[electric_sheep]

- Our universe was spawned by another universe, and that universe was spawned from another universe. It is universes all the way down.

 

Well, pardon me for finding your certainty about this as ludicrous. As ludicrous as the certainty of the ancient Greeks in Mount Olympus. This idea has actually been broached by scientists themselves, but they had the good sense to not proclaim it as unequivocal truth, as you seem to be.

 

By your own admission, you don't understand it so how can your answers be any more relevant?

 

Where exactly did I claim to have an answer, or put forth an answer? Your reading comprehension skills need work. There is a difference between claiming to have the answer and being skeptical of others "answers".

 

In science, they constantly test and retest their theories.

You are a student. Your university does not recognize you as an authority, and neither do I.

 

And just who the f**k are you? How did you get to know so much about me? I am not a student. The professor I spoke of is actually a good friend. And don't be so easily bamboozled by credentials.

[Mahatma]

I consider myself an agnostic person. I know there has to be something bigger than humans out there, but whether or not it is this human-made idea of a "god" is not for me to decide. I think anyone who thinks they can really understand and know whats in control is ignorant. The only reason you are religious is because you were born into it and taught it.

[FleshNBones]

Size is inconsequential. You can call yourself an ant, and as far as I'm concerned you can continue to be one. There are some differences between human beings, and the rest of life on this world. Ignore it, and you ignore a lot of things.

 

You must be from Texas where everything bigger is considered better.

Well, pardon me for finding your certainty about this as ludicrous. As ludicrous as the certainty of the ancient Greeks in Mount Olympus. This idea has actually been broached by scientists themselves, but they had the good sense to not proclaim it as unequivocal truth, as you seem to be.

Feel free to go an live with the dinosaurs. Don't let me stop you.

And just who the f**k are you? How did you get to know so much about me? I am not a student. The professor I spoke of is actually a good friend. And don't be so easily bamboozled by credentials.

I don't care, but the people around here seem to.

[FleshNBones]

I consider myself an agnostic person. I know there has to be something bigger than humans out there, but whether or not it is this human-made idea of a "god" is not for me to decide. I think anyone who thinks they can really understand and know whats in control is ignorant. The only reason you are religious is because you were born into it and taught it.

I think I always knew it at some level.

Perhaps you were taught not to believe or were taught to ignore it.

[andysw]

How do you, or anyone, know how long a day in God's time really is compared to our time? A full day for us may be 24 hrs, but that's because that's how God created it. Remember, He spoke light and there was light and He called this Day (Genisis 1.3-1.5)? A day for the Lord may have been 1,000 years or 10,000 yrs or even 100,000 yrs in our time. And who's to say in the day He created the beasts that roam our planet, He didn't create the dinosaurs? Then destroy them and create humans in His image. I'm sure the Bible does not contain every little thing that God decided to do or not do in addition to a detailed timeline. It's called faith for a reason.

 

I assume that you got this from 2 peter 3:8 "‘But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day". A day with the Lord is not 1,000 years. This is a common misunderstanding and most people often get confused. The text doesn't define a day because it doesn't say "a day is a thousand years". The real interpretation is that God seems slow at fulfilling promises because He is a patient God. It shows that it's a figure of speech to teach God is outside of time.

[Sks]

Thats about as much proof as saying that blue aliens are all around you, but I am the only one that sees them.

 

You can't prove or disprove god, its really a moot issue.

[disgracian]

I consider myself an agnostic person. I know there has to be something bigger than humans out there...

There are. Elephants.

 

Cheers,

D.

[andysw]

Let's start here. The Bible no where states the age of the earth. It does say that God created in six days and rested on the seventh, but it does not give an age - JamesM

 

You're right. The bible doesn't state the age of the earth. But it does list the age of the people before Jesus Christ. From Adam to Jesus was 4,000 years, and from Jesus to today is 2,000 years. 4,000 years + 2,000 years = 6,000 years.

[Enema]

There are. Elephants.

 

Cheers,

D.

 

http://www.instantrimshot.com/

[electric_sheep]

Our universe was spawned by another universe, and that universe was spawned from another universe. It is universes all the way down.

 

Gnarly.... dude. It all makes such perfect sense to me now!

 

Seriously though, did you get this idea from cosmology? The problem with a lot of cosmological theories is that's it's really difficult concocting experiments to actually test them. Cosmologists are clever though, and often they DO come up with an experiment, but the problem is they have to wait for the next star to explode to test it. Or for a certain galaxy to swing back around again. This can take a while. If you can't concoct an experiment, then it should at least be possible to find evidence in the natural world which supports your theory. Such evidence exists for the Big Bang Theory, for example.

 

Irregardless, I'll admit that I kind of like your idea, but let's look at it a little further...

 

What does it mean to be "all universes all the way down"? Are you essentially saying that everything that IS has ALWAYS been? If so, your idea manages to skirt around the issue of a beginning.

 

Let's forget about the issue of trying to cook up a way to test this theory for now, and just consider for a second that the possibility of something having ALWAYS existed is essentially incomprehensible.

 

I won't totally reject the idea based on that. After all, quantum mechanics in a lot of ways is essentially incomprehensible. Sometimes the universe just really is that complex.

 

When something is incomprehensible though, it means, by definition, that we only partly understand it. Our equations and theories have illuminated something for us, but we struggle to really fully understand it in an intuitive way. In this way, our idea, and the word(s) we use for the idea, transcend the idea itself, and also encompass that part of it which is beyond our grasp.

 

An example of this is the word "ether", which was a word used to summarize everything we didn't know about special relativity at the time. Another example is the word "consciousness", which summarizes many things mysterious and unknown. One day, if our understanding expands, this word may get split up into many words and theories and ideas, possibly even a few equations.

 

Back to the Big Bang... it is a great theory too, and many Physicists claim to know everything up to the smallest fraction of a second AFTER the bang. Most sensible physicists shut up when you ask them about right before the Big Bang. They may have ideas about it, but most will admit that it's inevitable that you will eventually bumb against something hard and infinitely mysterious eventually. At which point, they admit their ideas are basically just "ether".

 

Now, we could take all this unknowable stuff and give it a name, say Dog, and start attributing attributes to it (he's really smart, looks sort of like Marlon Brando, and likes mocha cappuccinos). Honestly though, what's really the point?

[NoIDidn't]

I want to practice my rhetorical skills too.

And of course, then there is boredom.

 

Boredom! Loved it! LOL.

[J2FT1]

We may never know how the Universe/Galaxy was created but we can't go and just say "god did it." It's irational, illogical, and plain stupid.

[lemony fresh]

I don't think we need to be caught up in proving this to anyone. If you believe in God, great, if you don't, you don't.

[lemony fresh]

We may never know how the Universe/Galaxy was created but we can't go and just say "god did it." It's irational, illogical, and plain stupid.

 

You know what? You are actually proving the point for those of us who believe in God. The spark of life was created by a higher power, and the miracles and powers that God is capable of can't be explained through rationale and logic.

[Enema]

The spark of life was created by a higher power....

 

That's a bold claim. References please.

[lemony fresh]

That's a bold claim. References please.

 

Like I stated, you get frustrated because it can't be explain through human "logic" and "evidence" and "rationale," concepts which we as humans have created ourselves.

Just because something can't be explained through science or "references," or documentation doesn't mean it's not true. You have to reach beyond your normal, human-created pattern of thinking and justification and need for concrete proof.

[andysw]

That's a bold claim. References please.

 

Genesis 1:11 "And God went on to shoot fourth, vegetation bearing seed, fruit trees yielding fruit according to their kinds, the seed of which is in it, upon the earth. And it came to be so".