Why all the focus on the OW - is it sexual jealousy?

[OWoman]

I do think there've been plenty of threads expressing anger toward a MM's BS that demonstrate this.

 

 

I've previously (and may still, in future) expressed anger towards my MM's BW - for abusing him, abusing the kids, stalling on the D - but none of it has been based on lies (there haven't been any) or behaviour of MM. I'm QUITE capable of expressing anger towards MM if I feel it's warranted (and he's quite capable of dealing with it, and communicating back ) and wouldn't feel a need to project that onto a third party who's not involved.

 

I've not seen much ANGER towards the MM's BS expressed here, but I have seen lots of FRUSTRATION... and, sometimes, some patronising, some dismissing, some sympathy, some guilt, some remorse, but mostly - a whole bunch of puzzlement.

[serial muse]

Really?? I wish someone would point them out to me, because I sure haven't seen them!

 

Well...I'm not saying this to be incendiary, but I really do think it's true. I think that we tend to laser in on the threads that we feel personally affected by - basically the ones that we feel are talking about us. So, I'm going to see all the threads that talk about the b**** wife and think, that's crappy, why are there so many of these??? You're seeing all the threads that laser in on the OW and thinking, that's crappy, why are there so many of these??? The ones that talk about the b**** wife are very likely just not pinging on your radar as strongly, which is natural. But that doesn't mean they aren't there, of course.

 

I've not seen much ANGER towards the MM's BS expressed here, but I have seen lots of FRUSTRATION... and, sometimes, some patronising, some dismissing, some sympathy, some guilt, some remorse, but mostly - a whole bunch of puzzlement.

 

I'm talking about threads/posts that express unreasonable anger toward the BS, talk about her being in the way, being stupid for not knowing what's going on - patronising, yes, but also dismissive in a really nasty and anger-infused way, not a "poor little thing" kind of way, etc. etc. Yes, really guys - they do exist! If I have time today I can go back and find them and list a bunch, but they're not really that hard to find.

 

For that matter, I've also read threads/posts by BS who express sympathy, who express regret for the way they behaved in the marriage, who wish they'd done things differently. But angry OW are as likely to gloss over these gentler, more reflective posts as angry BS are to gloss over the gentler, more reflective posts by OW. You know?

 

It's just not so lopsided as the OP made it out to be. IMHO.

[Lookingforward]

I'm sorry, but this was just ridiculous. The "integrity and moral fibre" comes into play when PEOPLE DON'T LIE AND KEEP THE PROMISES THEY MADE, regardless whether we're on the topic of marriage or any other thing in the entire universe.

 

exactly - and SOME MP lie and don't keep the promises they made within the M - even if they don't "cheat" - I find that also a lack of moral fibre and integrity

[angie2443]

Well...I'm not saying this to be incendiary, but I really do think it's true. I think that we tend to laser in on the threads that we feel personally affected by - basically the ones that we feel are talking about us. So, I'm going to see all the threads that talk about the b**** wife and think, that's crappy, why are there so many of these??? You're seeing all the threads that laser in on the OW and thinking, that's crappy, why are there so many of these??? The ones that talk about the b**** wife are very likely just not pinging on your radar as strongly, which is natural. But that doesn't mean they aren't there, of course.

 

 

 

I'm talking about threads/posts that express unreasonable anger toward the BS, talk about her being in the way, being stupid for not knowing what's going on - patronising, yes, but also dismissive in a really nasty and anger-infused way, not a "poor little thing" kind of way, etc. etc. Yes, really guys - they do exist! If I have time today I can go back and find them and list a bunch, but they're not really that hard to find.

 

For that matter, I've also read threads/posts by BS who express sympathy, who express regret for the way they behaved in the marriage, who wish they'd done things differently. But angry OW are as likely to gloss over these gentler, more reflective posts as angry BS are to gloss over the gentler, more reflective posts by OW. You know?

 

It's just not so lopsided as the OP made it out to be. IMHO.

 

This is an excellant observation. I tend to do this. I will get angry at a nasty post directed towards a BS and less so at one directed towards an OW, although some of the OW's I understand because I've been in a simular to theirs when I was young. I don't get angry at those OW's but it makes me feel low when reading their post. I guess it depends on the situation a poster is talking about.

[Owl]

Originally Posted by OWoman

I completely disagree with the M lifestyle. Maybe I should visit the Marriage & Life Partnerships forum and attack them for lacking integrity and moral fibre...

 

Here's the thing that I've tried to get across. There's nothing wrong with your choice not to believe in marriage. Then simply don't get married (but it amazes me that you PLAN on getting married anyway?!?!). Enjoy a polyamorous lifestyle to your heart's (and whatever else's) content.

 

Where the CONFLICT comes in is when you interfere with SOMEONE ELSE'S marriage. When you deliberately seek out someone who is already in (and ergo, agreed to) the marriage lifestyle. When you intentionally step into THEIR marriage, that's when you get the strife that goes with that.

 

If you were to choose to stick only to those likeminded with you...that are not already IN a marriage to begin with...no opportunity for conflict or strife comes up.

 

I don't believe in a large number of religions out there. My (un)belief doesn't hurt those that choose to believe as long as I take no action that interferes with their beliefs. If I stay out of their temples/mosques/whatever, and make no attempt to 'convert' or interfere with their practices, and show them personal respect even if I don't agree with their choices...that's fine. But when I cross the line and start going into THEIR places of worship...start interfering with THEIR beliefs by attempting to infringe my own...I set the stage for strife and conflict. I become responsible for that strife and conflict.

 

I have no issue with those that choose to be polyamorous and don't believe in marriage. Nothing wrong with it...as long as they don't excersise their 'rights' to a point where they interfere with others who DON'T feel that same way.

 

In other words...stick to the singles or swinging couples/sextuples/whatever that agree to your lifestyle...and let those that chose another path to continue their lives unharmed by your choices.

 

My take on things at least.

[whichwayisup]

There's nothing wrong with your choice not to believe in marriage.

 

The thing is, those who do not believe in marriage, do they believe in committment?

[OWoman]

Here's the thing that I've tried to get across. There's nothing wrong with your choice not to believe in marriage.

 

Owl... You've responded with a serious and considered response to what was a flippant response to someone else (I forget who) posting that the reason they're here, bashing OWs, is because they "disagree with our lifestyle". My post was literally that, if it works one way, it ought to work the other too, and perhaps I ought to go over there and bash some of my own.

 

(Though, as you may have noticed, my posts on that forum don't typically try to undermine Marriage, or anyone's marriage in particular. I tend rather to respond to what's being asked, from the perspective of the OP - if they're wanting to make it better, to respond to that, if they're wanting to bail, to respond to that, or if they're wanting to know whether people think they should make it better or bail... well, looking at what they've presented and what that suggests THEY feel....)

 

Then simply don't get married (but it amazes me that you PLAN on getting married anyway?!?!).

 

All things being equal, I wouldn't. But I'm tired of LDR, and the phone bills, airfares, etc are killing us both! And, if we want to be together... (Haven't I said all this? Too many times? )

 

Enjoy a polyamorous lifestyle to your heart's (and whatever else's) content.

 

That wouldn't be "content", that would be "ecstacy"...

 

Actually I've never considered myself "polyamorous". That's like subscribing to a club or a set of rules. I'm not a rules kind of person.

 

Where the CONFLICT comes in is when you interfere with SOMEONE ELSE'S marriage. When you deliberately seek out someone who is already in (and ergo, agreed to) the marriage lifestyle.

 

"Already in" is not (necessarily) the same as "agreed to", by any manner or means! It may well be for some, but there are an awful lot of marriages of convenience, marriages of mutual redefinition (where the partners marry formally, but have their own agreed interpretation of what it means to them, as opposed to what the state prescribes it to mean) or marriages which have shifted in meaning for at least one party (eg, they married young all starry eyed but have both become jaded and now see it only as an economic arrangement). They're all "married", but only the participants in that M know what it means to them.

 

When I married, my H knew what my take on it was, and agreed to that. According to your definition (above), we were agreeing to some universal norm of monogamy and fidelity - but we hadn't, and weren't. Those kinds of assumptions are nt always accurate.

[Owl]

When I married, my H knew what my take on it was, and agreed to that. According to your definition (above), we were agreeing to some universal norm of monogamy and fidelity - but we hadn't, and weren't. Those kinds of assumptions are nt always accurate.

 

Not at all. You and your H went into the marriage with a different set of expectations CLEARLY SPELLED OUT.

 

However, the other vast majority of marriages do NOT spell this out. And the vast majority of THAT vast majority also do not subscribe to that different set of expectations.

 

"Forsaking all others..." is a standard marriage vow that is included in nearly every marriage. Its a standard expectation of nearly every marriage, except those where its been agreed prior to taking those vows. Your situation is different...you went into the marriage with that particular vow intentionally not part of the package deal.

 

Personally, I consider those marriages like yours to fall under the broader umbrella of "open marriages". And therefore, clearly both partners are free to engage in whatever relationship with others that both parties agreed upon.

 

But you know full well that MOST marriages do NOT fall under that umbrella. Most marriages are INTENDED to "forsake all others" as part of that marriage. And those are the ones that "no one should strive to sunder".

 

As far as the "starry eyed youngster" version you mention...well, here's the thing. You can't unilaterally decide to alter a contract or vow...ESPECIALLY to someone that trusts you completely. You're right...some people do change and fall out of love. But even then, they should never decide that their vows mean nothing ONLY ON THEIR SIDE. If that changes, the owe it to their spouse to communicate those changes CLEARLY...PRIOR to actually breaking those vows. Agree to renegotiate or end the contract on both sides, before violating the terms of the contract.

 

Doing anything less results in far more pain to this person to whom you'd promised so much.

[FridayGal]

Or focusing on yourself' date=' making improvements where needed so that this is less likely to happen again? [/quote']

 

What do you think those improvements should be?

[Lookingforward]

What do you think those improvements should be?

 

I can think of a few gleaned from threads I've read here (mainly on the M board)

 

communication, giving of affection, not taking the spouse for granted for a start

[bentnotbroken]

And if he wants to slid his winky into something, it doesn't matter what you do, he will find an excuse and slid away.

 

I just don't buy how to keep someone from cheating. I was in the same marriage, not getting the same things he claims he wasn't getting(some of which are probably true) and I didn't introduce a strange, slightly off center person into my family's life.

[White Flower]

exactly - and SOME MP lie and don't keep the promises they made within the M - even if they don't "cheat" - I find that also a lack of moral fibre and integrity

Just like my H promised to honor and cherish and protect me. He gambled everything away which shook my security (protection) and he certainly never honored or cherished me.

 

I don't want this post to lead people to think I will always hold that against him. He just didn't have it in him to give even though he promised it at the wedding ceremony. I think many people believe they have it in them at the time of marriage but they really don't. Unfortunately, it can take years to discover the truth and finally accept it.

[Tomcat33]

And if he wants to slid his winky into something, it doesn't matter what you do, he will find an excuse and slid away.

 

 

 

I've heard this many times, if it doesn't matter what a person does in a relationship and a cheater will cheat regardless why does anyone even put ANY effort at all in a relationship?

 

this is what I don't understand!?!?

[White Flower]

Well at first we always told each other we loved each other kissed all the time,hugged.

 

We use to talk to each other about everything said flirty comments,she would give me compliments and vise versa.

 

So if I brought this to her attention along time ago we could have worked on things,but the communication was not there so I felt I could not bring it up,and I continued to let it go deeper and deeper,which is how my attention and being talkative and flirty comments went towards another women.

 

At the same time I did not talk to her and show her affection also like I once did,but I always wanted too,it's strange but when she slept I would hug her and kiss her and touch her face and hair and stare at her,and I could'nt do it when she was awake because I felt I would get rejected.

 

Sometimes M people lose communication and that spark,and sometimes that is all they need to get back to realise they still love each other and the M can be saved.

This just breaks my heart. I hope you learned from this and promise yourself to always communicate to the one you love.

 

Hugs.

[Tomcat33]

Just like my H promised to honor and cherish and protect me. He gambled everything away which shook my security (protection) and he certainly never honored or cherished me.

 

I don't want this post to lead people to think I will always hold that against him. He just didn't have it in him to give even though he promised it at the wedding ceremony. I think many people believe they have it in them at the time of marriage but they really don't. Unfortunately, it can take years to discover the truth and finally accept it.

 

 

WF that is a perfect example of how people cheat on their partners.

I'm sorry to hear that, and like your story there are many many stories of deceit that don't involve another woman or man.

 

I can't remember if I saw it on LS or where but I read something the other day that said the OW/OM can be:

 

- the bottle

- work

- sports

- addictions

- porn

- drugs

- untreated depression

- outings with friends

- friends

- hobbies

 

My mother always said this too. The OW can come in many forms.

[White Flower]

And if he wants to slid his winky into something, it doesn't matter what you do, he will find an excuse and slid away.

 

I just don't buy how to keep someone from cheating. I was in the same marriage, not getting the same things he claims he wasn't getting(some of which are probably true) and I didn't introduce a strange, slightly off center person into my family's life.

I feel badly that he took up with someone 'slightly off center.' I wonder if you would have felt better if he ended up with someone more sensitive and treated you with respect? I'm sure in the begininning no way! But if he stayed with someone like that you might not be so upset now?

 

You really had more than just a CH; he had an A with a soap opera!

[White Flower]

WF that is a perfect example of how people cheat on their partners.

I'm sorry to hear that, and like your story there are many many stories of deceit that don't involve another woman or man.

 

I can't remember if I saw it on LS or where but I read something the other day that said the OW/OM can be:

 

- the bottle

- work

- sports

- addictions

- porn

- drugs

- untreated depression

- outings with friends

- friends

- hobbies

 

My mother always said this too. The OW can come in many forms.

You're right; I think it was here on LS. I used to say to my H that Las Vegas was his OW. When he traded that in for online investing I called that his OW. Then he actually got an OW! All of it was taking time away from us and was very deceitful.

[Mino]

This just breaks my heart. I hope you learned from this and promise yourself to always communicate to the one you love.

 

Hugs.[/quoteI just read a really good book on passive agressive behaviors, What John decribed , is what this book was really about, fear of rejection.. Its sad for these men. They feel in their heart, but are unable to act on it, while at the same time they are sabatoging their R. John maybe you should read up on that, you may see yourself in it, and you will also learn why your like that, its not that you chose this, but it has to do with deep rooted issues of when you were a child. Fear of rejection.. Once you identify you can work on these issues,,, good luck

[Mino]

You're right; I think it was here on LS. I used to say to my H that Las Vegas was his OW. When he traded that in for online investing I called that his OW. Then he actually got an OW! All of it was taking time away from us and was very deceitful.

I guess thats why the term, Golf widow came from....

[bentnotbroken]

I've heard this many times, if it doesn't matter what a person does in a relationship and a cheater will cheat regardless why does anyone even put ANY effort at all in a relationship?

 

this is what I don't understand!?!?

 

 

I didn't say don't put any effort in. I put effort in, it didn't matter. It was what he chose to do. It didn't matter if I stood on my head naked in with a flaming stick out my @$$ holding a sign saying he was the greatest man alive, it wouldn't have been enough. I would have still been the blame for all his issues and maybe even the price of gas. There are personalities like that. To say that your actions are controlled by an outside source(spouse) is to me like having a built in excuse to ignore personal responsibility. You aren't happy with your partner, then say I am unhappy, I am leaving and leave. Don't play the cake eating game, or the woe is me role.

 

Ideally married people would do what they promise to do for their partners. Sadly that isn't the way it usually goes. There are many of us who have done God knows what to make a marriage work. I have done some things that embarrass me now. I believe that all effort should be made to be a good spouse. But I don't think all BS should take on themselves that it is their fault or they didn't do something for spouse to cheat. Even our counselor said Mr. Messy was well...messed up.

[bentnotbroken]

I feel badly that he took up with someone 'slightly off center.' I wonder if you would have felt better if he ended up with someone more sensitive and treated you with respect? I'm sure in the begininning no way! But if he stayed with someone like that you might not be so upset now?

 

You really had more than just a CH; he had an A with a soap opera!

 

 

Naw, I still would have no respect for him. But she wouldn't be an issue, if she would not be in my life.

[angie2443]

I have actually had the pleasure of talking with the bs... and everything he has said , was confirmed as true. Of coarse I doubted him for 3 years, was not sure, but today I know. its not just hearsay.....

 

This was just one talk? How could know after one talk what she was feeling, what she went/is going through, what her side is? Was this an open, heart to heart talk? It seems odd to me that you, the OW, and her, the Bs, would open up to each other in a conversaiton and let everything out.

[Mino]

This was just one talk? How could know after one talk what she was feeling, what she went/is going through, what her side is? Was this an open, heart to heart talk? It seems odd to me that you, the OW, and her, the Bs, would open up to each other in a conversaiton and let everything out.[/quo The talk was long enough for me to ask my questions, it was a good conversation... Did she hold back some, I am sure, But what I wanted to know was answered...by her. And she confirmed everything that mm was saying all along. So at the end I knew he HAD been telling the truth. Good enough for me:)

[angie2443]

This was just one talk? How could know after one talk what she was feeling, what she went/is going through, what her side is? Was this an open, heart to heart talk? It seems odd to me that you, the OW, and her, the Bs, would open up to each other in a conversaiton and let everything out.[/quo The talk was long enough for me to ask my questions, it was a good conversation... Did she hold back some, I am sure, But what I wanted to know was answered...by her. And she confirmed everything that mm was saying all along. So at the end I knew he HAD been telling the truth. Good enough for me:)

 

Can you be specific about what she confirmed and how that is helping your situation?

[serial muse]

WF that is a perfect example of how people cheat on their partners.

I'm sorry to hear that, and like your story there are many many stories of deceit that don't involve another woman or man.

 

I can't remember if I saw it on LS or where but I read something the other day that said the OW/OM can be:

 

- the bottle

- work

- sports

- addictions

- porn

- drugs

- untreated depression

- outings with friends

- friends

- hobbies

 

My mother always said this too. The OW can come in many forms.

 

This is so true.

 

You know, this whole series of posts, including the one by John Woo, makes me want to give everybody on here a hug. That was very sad.