In Over My Head

[neverendingsaga]

Hear, hear , nothing more pious than a 'reformed cheater'

 

wow lookingforward you really do have a problem w/ ppl changing & doing the right thing. you call them pious & hyprocritical. maybe your afraid to change? i dunno but i find it very strange.

 

OP i was recently an OW who left my XMM B/C he was like you, wanting the best of both worlds, & it is not righ tto do that. you have to make a choice one way or the other. i made my choice, & im urging you to make yours. (if i get called hypocrtical for this, oh well).

[Lookingforward]

wow lookingforward you really do have a problem w/ ppl changing & doing the right thing. you call them pious & hyprocritical. maybe your afraid to change? i dunno but i find it very strange.

 

OP i was recently an OW who left my XMM B/C he was like you, wanting the best of both worlds, & it is not righ tto do that. you have to make a choice one way or the other. i made my choice, & im urging you to make yours. (if i get called hypocrtical for this, oh well).

 

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[OldEurope]

wow lookingforward you really do have a problem w/ ppl changing & doing the right thing. you call them pious & hyprocritical. maybe your afraid to change? i dunno but i find it very strange.

 

OP i was recently an OW who left my XMM B/C he was like you, wanting the best of both worlds, & it is not righ tto do that. you have to make a choice one way or the other. i made my choice, & im urging you to make yours. (if i get called hypocrtical for this, oh well).

 

(Didn't we address the grammar issue just now???)

 

Oh well. Anyway, I assume this was addressed to me and not to LookingForward. What I find "pious and hypocritical" is the sudden sanctimoniousness of "reformed" cheaters whose coldness/bitterness towards the OW or OM with whom they spent some time in their lives with borders on the inhumane.

 

It isn't about being "afraid to change", as you assert. It is about having a certain modesty about one's own faults, past or present, and to treat persons who were, rightly or wrongly, once emotionally and/or sexually in our lives with a modicum of respect, at the very least.

 

OE

[marlena]

What I find "pious and hypocritical" is the sudden sanctimoniousness of "reformed" cheaters whose coldness/bitterness towards the OW or OM with whom they spent some time in their lives with borders on the inhumane.

 

It isn't about being "afraid to change", as you assert. It is about having a certain modesty about one's own faults, past or present, and to treat persons who were, rightly or wrongly, once emotionally and/or sexually in our lives with a modicum of respect, at the very least.

 

Yes, cruelly kicking the OW or OM to the curb after having shared his/her bed and been a part of his/her life is inhumane. Totally. Ending an affair should be done with respect and consideration for the other person's feelings. After all, this person once meant something to the unfaithful spouse.

 

As for sanctimonious "reformed cheaters", yes, they are the worst kind. If anything, the experience should have taught them to be more understanding and compassionate about human weaknesses and passions.

 

Marlena

[MrIndependent]

If there are no feelings left in the marriage, be open about it. Try to fix it. If it doesn't work, agree to separate. I am only advocating fairness and honesty. That shouldn't be up for debate among intelligent, civilized people.

 

Well I emailed my OW yesterday and apologised for my previous outburst which was born out of pure frustration and heartbreak. I told her that if she really wants to end this then I respect her decision. She hasn't emailed back so I guess that is that (she asked me not to call her before). Looking back, we really never had a chance (me married, language, distance, her emo problems). None of that stops me loving her and it will take me a long time to recover from this.

 

One thing I have learned is that I will never do this again. I don't regret meeting her but I regret the deceit and betrayal to my W and the fact I couldn't give myself fully to OW which in the end killed the R. I have decided to try one last ditch attempt to work on my marriage. I can almost hear the cries of 'ah, now OW has left it's easy for him'. Believe me, it's not. I'm going to give it six months and if things haven't improved by then, I will leave. I know some of you think I'm despicable and I do despise myself for being weak and not doing the right thing. However I am not a bad person. I have to accept that I have problems and I intend to work these out with therapy. It's easy for most to resist temptation but with me it is like an aching hunger which I have managed to supress for most of my married life.

 

I disagree with some on this message board about coming clean over the A. I know this will only cause needless pain to an innocent party. This pain and guilt is now my problem and I will not unload it onto someone else. If I did reveal it I know from experience that I would have to reveal every detail. I don't think she could take that.

 

Thank you all for your valued input. I haven't been able to talk to a soul about this so it's been very difficult to remain objective. You have kept me real.

 

Mr I. x

[MrIndependent]

I'm STILL curious about Mr I's wife's response to all of this, and his plan for managing the end of or the reconciliation of his marriage. When is he going to tell his wife that he's in love with someone else and its over???

 

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree on that. I know your stance is that I owe my wife the truth and I agree with you, I do. But what do you do when you know that truth will not only destroy the marriage but destroy the person also. There are a few things I can't reveal here as it would become obvious who I am.

 

Sorry.

[MrIndependent]

 

Question 1: Do you want to be in the marriage or not?

If yes, stop contact with OW and try and make things better.

If no, have the decency to tell your W that and ask for a divorce or at least a separation.

 

Only if you leave your marriage do you move on to question 2: Do OW and I have a chance? What do I have to do to make that work?

 

I can't believe your wife, no matter how much you devalue her motivation for staying married to you, wants or deserves to be kept around just until you can find something "better." If you are so sure you love OW, then have the courage to leave your M and take your chances.

 

No, I'm not sure I do want to be in the marriage but I'm going to try everything now to make it work.

 

Being honest, OW and I never had a chance.

 

I can't thank you enough for staying with me on this.

[Owl]

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree on that. I know your stance is that I owe my wife the truth and I agree with you, I do. But what do you do when you know that truth will not only destroy the marriage but destroy the person also. There are a few things I can't reveal here as it would become obvious who I am.

 

Sorry.

 

I really couldn't care less who you are. Public figure, whatever...none of that matters to me one whit.

 

If you know it would destroy your wife to know the truth...then why in the HECK did you do it in the first place?!?!?!?!

 

And I'll be honest...I've never yet seen someone die from their husband's affair. They may WANT to...for a short time...but you know, she CAN and likely WILL recover from what you've done...even if its without you.

 

You owe her the truth...but you're protecting her by lying to her.

 

This is STANDARD CHEATER SCRIPT. You see it on every WS thread in existence.

 

Why don't you not tell her the truth...but go ahead and divorce her then???

 

Avoids the pain of being honest with her, but frees her to get a real husband who truly does love and care for her?

[smartgirl]

Mr I.,

 

Everyone brings their own personal history into the advice they give and I guess that is the real value of this site. You definitely get opinions from all sides and all perspectives.

 

Despite my belief that many marriages can not only be repaired after an affair, but actually leave the marriage stronger, I hope you are staying in the marriage for the right reasons. Of course, the idea of "right reasons" in itself can be loaded with personal bias.

 

You should be prepared for a perhaps lengthy feeling of continuing emotional conflict. My H continued to have a high level of contact with OW for several months after he had decided to end things with her. Although he had concluded I was the person he wanted, he still had trouble disengaging. After I found out, he ended all out of work contact, but his emotional connection really continued for about 6 months, although it was steadily declining during that entire period. So you should not expect your feelings for OW to evaporate overnight.

 

What made the difference for us is that we started talking openly and at length about what each of us wanted for ourselves and each other. We talked everyday. We went to MC ( changed twice till we found a good one). We made changes in ourselves and what we do together. We both have a responsibility to meet certain conditions that will ensure a happy and fulfilling relationship and I think that is important.

 

All that being said, I was prepared to pull the plug if I didn't think our marriage could be a quality marriage -- one I really wanted to be a part of. You should not settle for less.

 

If your wife has been unwilling to talk or change you will need to make sure she knows you mean business. Many women will avoid these talks because they are afraid and hurt. To be totally honest, I'm not sure I could have broken through my defense mechanisms to hear that my H was unhappy without the bomb of the A going off. But in talking, I realized I had been supressing my own unhappiness because I didn't feel entitled to it. We had lost track of so much of the good in our relationship because we were exhausted with our jobs, kids and assorted other problems. But those are the things of life, so you have to find ways to make your relationship a priority again within that life.

 

This won't be easy, but if it is what you really want be committed to making the M one you can be happy with. If you can't make it work then at least you tried. But if you are honest in the way you go about it, it will be less painful for everyone involved.

[OldEurope]

Staying to try to fix what is not there....

 

versus

 

Letting what was there fall out of sight, out of mind (though probably not)...

 

I will never understand some people but...After twenty five years of misery, heck, what is another six months, right?

 

I am not trying to be sarcastic or "pro-OW", although it comes off that way. I am pro-love, laughter and living life...Which is all too rare...

 

Keep in mind that this poster came on here on the brink of self-destruction. The ball-and-chain set decided to tell him that misery is normal and being in love is an illusion, and that he better suck it all up. Tail between his legs, he is going to give it "six months", not even separating for a while (as I thought would be the right step, when in doubt) to cool off and gain some perspective (and telling the wife he needed to think things through, were it not possible for him to come clean on the affair). But no. He is now going to try to force himself to dig out what is not there, an inner voice will tell him otherwise, that this is not what he wants, and guilt and instinct are going to clash together confusing him even more. You never stop being an individual after you marry and after you have kids. This is not in conflict with being married or being loyal or reliable because those qualities are individual choices. But you cannot totally suppress yourself for the sake of what others want. For, then we get cases of men like this who are just dying inside, and the chorus--usually made up of people unhappy themselves--telling him decades of suffering is just all really good for him, yeah, really. 'Tis a pity.

 

OE

[Owl]

OE, I know that we're not likely to agree on this, but I thought I'd share a viewpoint.

 

When my wife was neck deep involved in her affair, she was CONVINCED that she'd been unhappy for YEARS.

 

I asked point blank...how long are you talking about? She told me it had been AT LEAST the last 10 years of our marriage she'd been horribly miserable in.

 

I sat down and looked at our time. I couldn't see it. I could see where she'd been unhappy for about the last year prior to the affair...and I could see why. But 10 years??? It didn't add up. There was NOTHING I could see that showed me that. I asked our kids (all older teens at the time). They couldn't see it. I asked her sister, whom she's very close with. Nope...she couldn't reconcile that timeframe either. No one could. Everyone could look back and CLEARLY see where she'd changed, when her unhappiness had set in...at about a year prior to all of this.

 

So we got into marriage counseling as soon as the affair ended (even prior, actually). And for the first several months, I heard that same thing...YEARS of unhappiness. I tried asking what specifically made her unhappy...she couldn't say. What about some examples of times she was unhappy? Very very vague. When had she told me or the kids or her sister about this? Never.

 

What's interesting (and to my point) is that as time wore on, and as more and more time passed since the end of her affair (and the end of her addiction to the affair)...her story gradually changed. It went from YEARS to maybe a couple of years. Then finally down to about a year...which we could all clearly see.

 

You see, she'd mentally re-written our entire marital history during her affair. Mentally, she couldn't justify her actions...unless she'd been horribly unhappy to begin with. Ergo...re-written marital history that had nothing to do with reality.

 

My point? Right now, there is no way that this particular poster is likely to have a clear view of his own marital history. He's still looking at it through 'affair goggles'. Right now, there is very likely nothiing positive about his marriage in his eyes...but there was surely SOMETHING if he was there for over two decades.

 

I'm not saying there was nothing wrong with his marriage. What I AM saying is that he's not the best judge of what's right or wrong with it at the moment, given that he's still in the throes of the affair and its ending. He also has no idea at the moment as to what can be done to fix the situation or not. He's "affair blinded' to anything BUT his loss of OW.

 

Let him have six months or so completely without OW in his life. Then see if his view of his marriage has started changing or not.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Last thought...the "re-writing of marital history" as a result of an affair is well-documented by marriage counselors. Its not something I'm making up. Check it out for yourself...marriagebuilders has some good info on it. So does "Surviving an Affair".

[OldEurope]

2 Long,

 

Your post is very eloquent. However, I think the "illusion" in all of this is that there is something to "save" in his marriage. There very well might not be and he has been unhappy for a devastating amount of time trying to work for, hope for, otherwise. He has tried to address the problems, he says, but the wife never wanted to face those issues, and wanted to sweep it all under the carpet, avoiding the "messiness" of it all. And so he bottled it up, now to the point where it cannot be contained any more.

 

Falling in love and being in love is not only not an illusion, it is the strongest , most powerful reality mankind can achieve. You are talking about infatuation, I suppose Mr I's feelings were/are well past infatuation for the other lady.

 

xox

OE

[OldEurope]

OE, I know that we're not likely to agree on this, but I thought I'd share a viewpoint.

 

I asked point blank...how long are you talking about? She told me it had been AT LEAST the last 10 years of our marriage she'd been horribly miserable in.

 

I sat down and looked at our time. I couldn't see it. I could see where she'd been unhappy for about the last year prior to the affair...and I could see why. But 10 years??? It didn't add up. [...]

 

What's interesting (and to my point) is that as time wore on, and as more and more time passed since the end of her affair (and the end of her addiction to the affair)...her story gradually changed. It went from YEARS to maybe a couple of years. Then finally down to about a year...which we could all clearly see.

 

You see, she'd mentally re-written our entire marital history during her affair. Mentally, she couldn't justify her actions...unless she'd been horribly unhappy to begin with. Ergo...re-written marital history that had nothing to do with reality.

 

My point? Right now, there is no way that this particular poster is likely to have a clear view of his own marital history. He's still looking at it through 'affair goggles'. Right now, there is very likely nothiing positive about his marriage in his eyes...but there was surely SOMETHING if he was there for over two decades.

 

 

 

Owl, I do actually agree that the scenario you describe above might very well be the case, in many marriages threatened by an affair. And I understand feelings--true feelings--can get buried under a myriad of resentments large and small, the day to day, stresses, etc., which can feel like "an eternity"....So your argument is absolutely a valid one in my book and your personal anecdote quite interesting...

 

It has been my impression, however, that the OP was trying over and over to tell his wife that he was unhappy and that serious issues were not being addressed. He felt used and unappreciated for "two decades". All right, that amount of time is what he is telling us, and using your example above, he might mean ten years, five years, two years...Who knows. But there was an attempt on his part to do something and the wife, according to the older posts he wrote here, was just more or less trying to get by with the oh-but-everything-is-fine-dear facade, in a way, the OP described, that led him to believe she didn't want to rock the boat in terms of "marriage", no matter what the personal cost was to the husband, the man.

 

This is what was getting my goat--the appearance (going by his story) of the wife's seeming indifference to his cry for help.

 

In your own case, your wife, apparently (as far as I know from your posts) did not try to talk to you about her concerns, anxiety about the state of the marriage as the OP here was trying to do. She, your wife, I believe just avoided all such discussion altogether. OP did not. I think there is a big difference there. (Forgive if I have that totally wrong, but just taking that as a hypothetical scenario, one can appreciate the significance in the way the WS or potential WS "warns" the spouse about what they are feeling).

 

xo

OE

[Owl]

I think you may have missed my point, OE.

 

My point was...my wife COULDN'T have talked to me about her unhappiness in those "10 years of horrible misery"...because they never happened.

 

She wasn't miserable during those 10 years. She was happy, engaged in the family, and glad to be where she was.

 

It was her VIEW of those 10 years that changed drastically AFTER SHE'D GOTTEN INTO THE AFFAIR.

 

She re-wrote her own viewpoint on those 10 years AS A RESULT of getting involved with OM and needing a 'way out' of the marriage.

 

And that's far more common than you'd think.

 

I suspect that the OP's view of his marriage has been similarly altered by his own affair. This is a common thing.

 

Right now, he's looking back at his marriage through "affair goggles", and it looks like a hideous, horrible thing.

 

My suggestion is that he take that six months and spend it trying to get a better look at his marriage WITHOUT the affair goggles.

[whichwayisup]

But what do you do when you know that truth will not only destroy the marriage but destroy the person also.

 

Sucks that you didn't have that mindset before the OW and the affair. Part of the fallout after an affair ends are the consquences, people get hurt and destroyed, lives get turned upside...

[Mustang Sally]

I am struck by the similarity of Mr I's plight with (an)other I know.

Hmmm.

<pondering this>

 

But, this little amusement for me is, in fact, irrelevant.

 

After observing the entirety of this thread so far, I am also struck by the well presented opposing views shared here.

 

In reality, I tend to believe that Mr I is likely unable to actually perceive an unbiased (read: honest) representation of the truth of his marriage. I say this, because I have been there myself (and do still go there, now and again, on occasion).

 

I am not understanding how Mr I could truly "love" his OW and still state that (in essence) they would have never worked together. Maybe I am getting hung up on semantics? It seems to me that to really participate in "love" with someone necessitates (by definition, if you will) that one could fashion and sustain a long term relationship with the other. Whereas being "in love" with someone does not, necessarily. Again - maybe I am splitting hairs here to most of you, but in trying to discern the TRUTH of Mr I's situation (admittedly, from only one side of the story), this does have relevance - at least to me.

[Mustang Sally]

To continue with the rest of my thoughts from the previous post (I accidentally hit "submit" before I meant to)...

 

I also wanted to add that in my opinion, each spouse does truly owe it to themself and each other (regardless of the eventual outcome in situations such as this - either divorce or reconciliation) to do everything possible to view the marriage in an unbiased and honest fashion before making life-changing decisions regarding the future of all involved.

 

Is this painful? Possibly.

Is this difficult? Probably.

Is it the right thing to do? Most definitely. The discomfort of the exercise does not invalidate it, in my opinion.

 

Some might say that the only relevant truth is the one that the WS perceives at any given moment - that the mere fact that a WS feels the relationship has become moot (regardless of what the other spouse perceives) is more than enough justification for a unilateral decision to abort a commitment made.

 

I guess I take a much more complex view than many (most?) on relationships such as marriage. To me, though I unequivocally agree that two people must retain their healthy individuality in a marriage, the commitment that is made when one says "I do" (if you can pardon the cliche), does involve a degree of death of self. It means you have committed that you will be mindful of the other person and your union with them with your actions and thoughts, in all things. That you will acknowledge that a trinity (if you can pardon the Christian reference) now exists: you, your spouse, and your marriage. Each with individuality, but also with inextricable reliance/dependance on the other parts.

 

Because of this belief I have about marriage and what it means, I can't endorse a view of what feels to me like "Just go and do whatever makes you feel happy because life is too short to do otherwise." Especially in light of the fact that Mr I is quite possibly (who amongst us can really know?) altering the truth of his situation based on his own (understandably) self-serving interests at the moment.

 

Having said all that, I would respectfully request that my intent here not be misunderstood. I say all of this not because I am trying to skewer Mr I, or anyone else that shares the view that I am taking issue with right now (you know I revere you, OE!). Believe me - I have (and continue to) personally wrestled with similar issues, as most of you know. But I feel compelled to share this now because I think that disregarding the sacrifice of self (and subsequent and possible difficulty of living up to that) that is required for sustaining any long-term relationship sets folks up for potential repeat disillusionment with any future attempts at a LTR.

 

Mr I's real shortcoming (in my view) is that he allowed his true self to be squashed by his...spouse? marriage? fear? something else entirely? for so many years before it finally hit critical mass and manifested itself in participating in an illicit relationship to the disservice of himself, his spouse and family, and his OW and her family. (What a lesson this should be for all of us!) Additionally, Mr. I may have indeed made a poor choice those many years ago in his choice of his spouse. I certainly know that this can happen.

 

I think that the most appropriate way to reconcile this is not to martyr himself to his marriage. However, nor is it (in my view) to disembark from the marriage in the pseudo-clarity of mid-life, greener pastures, or whatever may indeed apply to him in the reality of his life. It is to put the issues on the table with his wife, reconcile them (be it in divorce, or renewed commitment), and then go forth having learned some priceless things about himself, and never revisit this kind of personal strife again.

 

Peace to you, Mr I, and good luck with your journey. You have my best wishes.

[smartgirl]

Sally,

 

Very well said. One of the most productive and spiritual parts of our post-A recovery has been our exploration of ourselves as individuals first and then how we, as individuals, could come together in a more fulfilling way.

 

In all the reading I did, including Mars and Venus in the Bedroom (sometimes corny, but informative) and in our talking I began to realize how poorly I understood my own motivations and needs. What I had seen as my H's failings were often caused by my own distorted perceptions and biases. It has truely been the most extraordinary journey of my life and the increased enlightenment has brought me better relationships with other family members in addition to my H. The same has held true for my H.

 

I also agree with whoever said that unless Mr. I gets to sorting himself out, it matters little who he has for a partner. He will, like Jacob Marley, simply drag his issues around with him wherever he goes. Self discovery must be the first stop on his journey.

[OldEurope]

What my W should have done, if she really was as unhappy as she claimed, is 2 have open up 2 me, let me help her and myself and our marriage, and if that failed, divorce and get back on her own emotional feet before having the A with RM. ...of course, he should have done the same thing with his own W. But they didn't, they had the A anyway, and now here we are, mostly back on track and RM is DV'd and married 2 another woman he was dating during the A with my W, and his xW is married 2 an OM she started with before she DV'd RM!

 

Which one of those dysfunctional "relationships" is/was "real" and which is the fantasy?

 

And when the lovers are old and gray, or dead and gone, where does this reality go? From Peter Gabriel's "Make Tomorrow:"

 

"What better measure of what you were doing here,

Than by what you can leave behind.

All of the children of your childrens' children,

Do you ever think what they're going to find?"

 

Yes. Romance and infa2ation are pretty similar.

 

-ol' 2long

 

1. The initial marriages at their core were based on non-reality because they broke down and led to these other relationships.

 

2. I am getting the feeling that in your view, and the view of others, that one can only love and be "in love" as fly-by-night lovers, and anyone who is married has to renounce active love with their spouse and be condemned to misery. I know couples who have been married quite a long time who still have that "spark", or, for example, widowed persons who claim to have been in love and happy till their spouse's dying day.

 

3. As for the red-hot lovers who are "old and gray", they too might have passion right till the very end. And they tend to be less old and less gray in spirit, quite frankly.

 

4. Once again, I am not and was not talking about "romance" or infatuation. To be in love, to fall-truly-in-love-another-person is the sum of every part of one's being, it is the very stuff which has moved mankind through life, history, art, centuries....To love and be in love is the most important state of being in one's life and it is getting quite tiresome to read some of the pessimists and cynics on this forum trying to reduce it all to some silly physiological accident, as if to make such posters feel better.

 

5. Any dolt can go off and have an affair and call it "love" right away and sure enough, when it isn't love, that becomes clear soon enough. I am not talking about that here. I am talking about marriages which are fundamentally, irreperably broken, and those individuals in such marriages who meet someone far better suited to them, with whom they identify profoundly, from which true love is nurtured and grows. This happens, no matter how much one might deny it.

 

xxoo

OE

[MrIndependent]

Mr I.,

 

If your wife has been unwilling to talk or change you will need to make sure she knows you mean business. Many women will avoid these talks because they are afraid and hurt. To be totally honest, I'm not sure I could have broken through my defense mechanisms to hear that my H was unhappy without the bomb of the A going off. But in talking, I realized I had been supressing my own unhappiness because I didn't feel entitled to it. We had lost track of so much of the good in our relationship because we were exhausted with our jobs, kids and assorted other problems. But those are the things of life, so you have to find ways to make your relationship a priority again within that life.

 

This won't be easy, but if it is what you really want be committed to making the M one you can be happy with. If you can't make it work then at least you tried. But if you are honest in the way you go about it, it will be less painful for everyone involved.

 

W and I talked in depth this morning. I asked her if she was happy with our M and she said no which is a big step forwards. I said I wasn't either and that I think we need to make some fundamental changes in our M starting with better communication otherwise we may as well split up right now. To my amazement, rather than withdrawing, she agreed. This is the first sign that I may have something to work with here so I'm encouraged.

 

The problem is I want to give this 100% commitment but I need some of this pain to diminish first as I'm only running on 30% at the moment.

[MrIndependent]

 

Mr I's real shortcoming (in my view) is that he allowed his true self to be squashed by his...spouse? marriage? fear? something else entirely? for so many years before it finally hit critical mass and manifested itself in participating in an illicit relationship to the disservice of himself, his spouse and family, and his OW and her family. (What a lesson this should be for all of us!) Additionally, Mr. I may have indeed made a poor choice those many years ago in his choice of his spouse. I certainly know that this can happen.

 

I think that the most appropriate way to reconcile this is not to martyr himself to his marriage. However, nor is it (in my view) to disembark from the marriage in the pseudo-clarity of mid-life, greener pastures, or whatever may indeed apply to him in the reality of his life. It is to put the issues on the table with his wife, reconcile them (be it in divorce, or renewed commitment), and then go forth having learned some priceless things about himself, and never revisit this kind of personal strife again.

 

Peace to you, Mr I, and good luck with your journey. You have my best wishes.

 

Thanks Sally, your post is full of gold nuggets but you have really hit the nail on the head with this one. I have allowed this to happen in my marriage by taking the personal sacrifice thing too far and ignoring my own needs. Now I feel bitter and twisted but I must take personal responsibility for this since it was in my power to change it. I guess somewhere along the line of working myself into the ground, coping with two very difficult children and problems with my own parents, I lost sight of who I am. I truly didn't feel like a person anymore. My view was that marriage had 'sucked me dry' and there was nothing left to give. So I withdrew into my own personal space which was a way of coping. My OW seemed to banish all this at a stroke. I could be myself with her I could tell her anything, she was very open with me. I felt completely alive and validated. Suddenly my heart was filled with love again. Who was I going to give this love to? The person who unlocked it, or the person I (perhaps unfairly) blamed for stripping me of it?

 

I think we are delving into some pretty profound truths here and I am with OE when she says that love is not a bunch of chemicals but maybe one of the most important and life changing states one can ever experience. I truly believe it transcends existence and that is why, although I am in agony at the moment, I do not regret my A because I would have missed out on the experience of falling deeply in love with and loving someone very special. I am not holding this up as an exuse for going into the A in the first place which was clearly wrong.

 

You are right that I have learned some valuable lessons and I hope some watching this thread will gain an insight into this whole A process. To them, I am not attempting to justify anything but like it or not, we are all weak and imperfect, A's happen and the process is quite often very painful and destructive. Unfortunately it's all part of being alive and human though.

 

Thanks again Sally.

[MrIndependent]

1. The initial marriages at their core were based on non-reality because they broke down and led to these other relationships.

 

2. I am getting the feeling that in your view, and the view of others, that one can only love and be "in love" as fly-by-night lovers, and anyone who is married has to renounce active love with their spouse and be condemned to misery. I know couples who have been married quite a long time who still have that "spark", or, for example, widowed persons who claim to have been in love and happy till their spouse's dying day.

 

3. As for the red-hot lovers who are "old and gray", they too might have passion right till the very end. And they tend to be less old and less gray in spirit, quite frankly.

 

4. Once again, I am not and was not talking about "romance" or infatuation. To be in love, to fall-truly-in-love-another-person is the sum of every part of one's being, it is the very stuff which has moved mankind through life, history, art, centuries....To love and be in love is the most important state of being in one's life and it is getting quite tiresome to read some of the pessimists and cynics on this forum trying to reduce it all to some silly physiological accident, as if to make such posters feel better.

 

5. Any dolt can go off and have an affair and call it "love" right away and sure enough, when it isn't love, that becomes clear soon enough. I am not talking about that here. I am talking about marriages which are fundamentally, irrepairably broken, and those individuals in such marriages who meet someone far better suited to them, with whom they identify profoundly, from which true love is nurtured and grows. This happens, no matter how much one might deny it.

 

xxoo

OE

 

Very true and well said. I believe many people "check out" of their marriages and indeed life itself at quite an early age. They get on the roundabout of life and are so dizzy they don't know how to get off. They don't question things and just beieve that what is happening to them is beyond their control. Either that or they are too lazy to do anything about it. I was one of those people. In my case I jumped off the roundabout and then found myself on the worlds biggest coaster which is typical of me I have to say!

 

Perhaps a more mature approach would have been to step off the roundabout and go for a walk in the countryside until my head became clear. It's so much easier in retrospect

[Lizzie60]

Same old, same old... I'm 49, been married for over 20 years. Marriage has been pretty passionless, we are good friends but no spark. There are rarely any arguments since we are both conflict avoiders. If I'm honest, it all started to fall apart after the children now 16, 19, came along. Basically I let myself be backed into a corner where I felt over worked, under appreciated and taken for granted. Spent a lot of my life feeling lonely despite having good friends. I have only myself to blame but was too dumb to see it at the time. After many years of resisting constant temptation, I have fallen for another woman. She is single (39) but is scared stiff I will leave my wife for her at this point. We have been seeing each other for 6 months now so the "honeymoon" phase is over. When we are together I feel happy and complete. We have a lot in common and in many respects we are like soul mates. She has now moved away but we still speak on the phone and keep in touch.

 

All this has forced me to reevalute my life and marriage. How can I stay in a marriage with someone I don't love and continue to deceive her? The flip side is I know it would devastate my wife and kids if I left and I don't think I could put her through that. Don't know what I expect anyone to say apart from "pull yourself together". Feeling completely trapped and so low at the moment and have considered suicide. Tried Prozak but that made things worse.

 

Wow 6 months and the honeymoon is over.. that was fast... mine usually last 6 years...

 

Anyway.. you are basically living like roomates.. with kids.

 

I think it is possible to live with someone you married and now consider her as a roomate.. for the sake of the kid..

 

BUT in order to be happy... you have to get your passion somewhere else... so if I were you.. I would get a new OW... this way you will be happy at home with your roomate and kids and you will get that passion, great sex, excitement and love you soooo crave for...

[smartgirl]

W and I talked in depth this morning. I asked her if she was happy with our M and she said no which is a big step forwards. I said I wasn't either and that I think we need to make some fundamental changes in our M starting with better communication otherwise we may as well split up right now. To my amazement, rather than withdrawing, she agreed. This is the first sign that I may have something to work with here so I'm encouraged.

 

The problem is I want to give this 100% commitment but I need some of this pain to diminish first as I'm only running on 30% at the moment.

 

Wow. You have opened a door here and who knows where it might take you. But don't let your current mental state worry you too much.

 

There is a difference between having a 100% commitment and feeling 100% about your M. As I have said many times in this thread, you are in a recovery type mode and that takes time. So no, you don't feel 100% for your W and 0 for OW at this point in time. Commitment is about having the determination to follow through and stay with something. In this case that does NOT entail staying in the M no matter what. It does entail focusing in on who you are, what you want out of life, what your W is looking for, how things got off track and whether you can get them back on track. You have to have enough faith to keep moving forward in the process without knowing if you will be successful or not.

 

Whether things ultimately work out or not, you will learn more about yourself and I believe you will feel better in the long run. You are correct in that affairs are about running away from your issues and problems, not facing them and fixing them.

[smartgirl]

Very true and well said. I believe many people "check out" of their marriages and indeed life itself at quite an early age. They get on the roundabout of life and are so dizzy they don't know how to get off. They don't question things and just beieve that what is happening to them is beyond their control. Either that or they are too lazy to do anything about it. I was one of those people. In my case I jumped off the roundabout and then found myself on the worlds biggest coaster which is typical of me I have to say!

 

Perhaps a more mature approach would have been to step off the roundabout and go for a walk in the countryside until my head became clear. It's so much easier in retrospect

 

This is very interesting. My H and I both avoided bringing up issues because we did not believe that would do any good. One thing we learned for sure in all this is you can't expect your spouse to fix problems they don't know about. We also learned that how you raise those issues is so important.

 

If my H said anything at all, it was like "you sound so xxx" which made me feel my character was being criticized and that hurt. When we talked and what came out was "when you do xxx, it makes me feel anxious or bad or whatever . My work life is in turmoil and it is really important to me to have a place I can come at night that is more harmonious." Ok, I could understand that and I didn't feel so personally attacked. There were things I could do differently if they were upsetting him and I was willing to do that. As long as he was too, and he was. We've discovered dozens of things like this in our talks. I wish you the same.