Panic! Breathe.... PANIC!!! Breathe.

[Trialbyfire]

carrot, he's set his boundaries at "no demands, requirements or responsibilities" and you're putting up with it. He feels he owns you body and soul but doesn't have to return the same. I could shake you sometimes but only because I don't know what else to do.

[carrotgirl]

Let's walk and talk it over. And you can go ahead and shake Tri.

I'm stable enough today to handle it. (I wasn't earlier in the week but you knew that.)

 

Are there other options than the following?

a) Take it.

b) Leave it.

 

Carrot

[Nevermind]

Not really.

 

Ask yourself one question: do you see yourself with him in the future?

[Trialbyfire]

If he's truly PA, he will do the polar opposite of what you've expressed you want or need from him, unless it's to his disadvantage. That's a helluva' personality type to love and can be very damaging to you.

[carrotgirl]

Another stressed out day. Rushing. Jittery. Icks.

 

PA? Passive Aggressive personality. Does he exhibit behaviors? Yes. But in terms of actually saying he "is" ? Gee, I fit that personality far more than he does, eg, complaining (I already complained in this post!), losing things, being stubborn, procrastinating, being late and so on...

 

I would say he does other things and I don't know where they fall out personality-wise. On the one hand, when I think about them rationally, I tend to wonder if I'm more and more of the problem and he's more and more normal... on the other hand, I think, why can't he just understand where I'm coming from and be a little easier on me.

 

And it's hard to think of a reasonable argument to "he doesn't want to." It's valid. No, I don't want to _____. Sometimes I want to. Yes, I want to. I might want to later. I wanted to before but I changed my mind and so on. All reasonable. He often thinks my reactions to these reasonable responses are insane. I can see his point.

 

Sure. He withholds when it suits his purpose. He ignores when it suits his purpose. He harbors resentment but doesn't express it, or rather, doesn't express it readily or without provocation. He lies, but damn, everyone does. He avoids things by saying he forgot, but again, so common. He's stubborn, as much as I am, more than I am, but but but. You know? It's acting out but is it pathological?

 

GD doesn't consistently go one way or the other with regard to my expressed wants or needs. With needs, he rarely lets me down, though I don't express very much as being a need. Wants go any which way. But reading it typed out that can be flipped to say what I think I've said all along, and what I think about most people in general; they do what they think will be good for them or, as likely, do what will bother them least.

 

I think it's very difficult to make people do that which they truly do not want to do.

 

Carrot

[Trialbyfire]

Then I ask you again, what do you need from him? If you know and you've expressed it/them, has he met it/them?

[carrotgirl]

Ask yourself one question: do you see yourself with him in the future?

Is this a magical thinking question?

It looks like a magical thinking question!

 

Yah. Easily I can see us together in whatever that unknown future is wherever it is. I see us happy together too. It's easy to conjure that picture.

 

When we're together NOW we're happy together.

 

Carrot

[carrotgirl]

Then I ask you again, what do you need from him? If you know and you've expressed it/them, has he met it/them?

For the purpose of the conversation, I have to forego the very obvious problem still outstanding: him breaking it off with me in the first place.

 

I don't have a lot of needs where needs are defined as requirements. GD meets most of my requirements when it comes to a mate naturally as he is.

 

Otherwise, when GD has had to choose between meet Carrot's requirements or lose Carrot forever? (Yes, despite breaking up with me and excepting that as already noted above.) He has met my requirements every time.

 

So what does that mean?

 

Carrot

[Trialbyfire]

For the purpose of the conversation, I have to forego the very obvious problem still outstanding: him breaking it off with me in the first place.

 

I don't have a lot of needs where needs are defined as requirements. GD meets most of my requirements when it comes to a mate naturally as he is.

 

Otherwise, when GD has had to choose between meet Carrot's requirements or lose Carrot forever? (Yes, despite breaking up with me.) He has met my requirements every time.

 

So what does that mean?

 

Carrot

I only have one question for you carrot, why aren't you officially back together again in an exclusive, committed relationship?

[carrotgirl]

I only have one question for you carrot, why aren't you officially back together again in an exclusive, committed relationship?

Answer: At this time, GD does not want to be officially back together again in an exclusive, committed relationship.

[Trialbyfire]

Answer: At this time, GD does not want to be officially back together again in an exclusive, committed relationship.

What does carrot want?

[carrotgirl]

Carrot wants, I want, to be back together again.

[Trialbyfire]

Then tell him so and make it a hard boundary so if he chooses not to meet your needs, he'll have to source his beta-carotene somewhere else.

 

Step down carrot.

[sunshinegirl]

Another stressed out day. Rushing. Jittery. Icks.

 

PA? Passive Aggressive personality. Does he exhibit behaviors? Yes. But in terms of actually saying he "is" ? Gee, I fit that personality far more than he does, eg, complaining (I already complained in this post!), losing things, being stubborn, procrastinating, being late and so on...

 

I would say he does other things and I don't know where they fall out personality-wise. On the one hand, when I think about them rationally, I tend to wonder if I'm more and more of the problem and he's more and more normal... on the other hand, I think, why can't he just understand where I'm coming from and be a little easier on me.

 

And it's hard to think of a reasonable argument to "he doesn't want to." It's valid. No, I don't want to _____. Sometimes I want to. Yes, I want to. I might want to later. I wanted to before but I changed my mind and so on. All reasonable. He often thinks my reactions to these reasonable responses are insane. I can see his point.

 

Sure. He withholds when it suits his purpose. He ignores when it suits his purpose. He harbors resentment but doesn't express it, or rather, doesn't express it readily or without provocation. He lies, but damn, everyone does. He avoids things by saying he forgot, but again, so common. He's stubborn, as much as I am, more than I am, but but but. You know? It's acting out but is it pathological?

 

GD doesn't consistently go one way or the other with regard to my expressed wants or needs. With needs, he rarely lets me down, though I don't express very much as being a need. Wants go any which way. But reading it typed out that can be flipped to say what I think I've said all along, and what I think about most people in general; they do what they think will be good for them or, as likely, do what will bother them least.

 

I think it's very difficult to make people do that which they truly do not want to do.

 

Carrot

 

I don't really understand this relationship. It sounds exhausting and drama-filled. Who wants to live like that for a lifetime? Yuck.

 

A few comments related to the bolded parts above:

 

That you are starting to doubt yourself is a pretty classic symptom of gaslighting. I had a boyfriend 5-6 years ago who managed to make me so crazy that I was convinced (as was he) that I was the broken, dysfunctional person in the relationship, not him. Reality was so far the other way it wasn't even funny - he was a closet homosexual and fit all the diagnostic criteria for Narcissistic Personality Disorder. So, first, I would say, be very very careful of his behavior somehow becoming your "normal" while your behavior becomes the "problem".

 

As to lying and avoiding, you are making excuses for him. Big time. It's a great example of making his bad behavior normal and okay when IT IS NOT.

 

As to your comment that most people do what benefits them or bothers them the least. Are you seriously saying that as a way of justifying being with an incredibly selfish man who doesn't *really* care to take care of you, cherish you, or even CHOOSE you (every day)?

 

My my my, I see the pattern so much more clearly in others' stories than my own. I was guilty of justifying a lot of selfish behavior in my ex, too. Wish I could see it as easily as I see it in yours.

 

The happy ending I see here is you getting rid of this guy and finding someone who doesn't jerk you around!

 

(((hugs)))

[Newtotheblogthing]

That you are starting to doubt yourself is a pretty classic symptom of gaslighting. I had a boyfriend 5-6 years ago who managed to make me so crazy that I was convinced (as was he) that I was the broken, dysfunctional person in the relationship, not him. Reality was so far the other way it wasn't even funny - he was a closet homosexual and fit all the diagnostic criteria for Narcissistic Personality Disorder. So, first, I would say, be very very careful of his behavior somehow becoming your "normal" while your behavior becomes the "problem".

 

Sorry to jump into this in the middle but thank you for writing this! I feel EXACTLY like this.. and I am still going back and forth with my ex. It was just so nice to see the description that so clearly describes my situation, to the proverbial T. Except for the closeted homosexual part..

 

Thanks again! Would love to know how you actually moved on from this type of person.. I have been struggling for a year now since the original break up. He's still around and I still feel crazy..

[melodymatters]

Ick, ick, and ICK !!!! Carrott !!!

 

If a man does not want to be exclusive with you, he is SO yesterdays smelly garbage. Relationships are hard enough when you are both committed and head over heels !

 

And, disclosure : I have seen pics of BOTH of them, Carrott is a gorgeous, flame haired, vixen, and GD .....is going into POLITICS ? He LOOKS like a giant douche !

[carrotgirl]

Then tell him so and make it a hard boundary so if he chooses not to meet your needs, he'll have to source his beta-carotene somewhere else.

 

Step down carrot.

I hear you. It's not like I haven't thought about this.

 

I just wonder what the point of making this demand is. Sunshinegirl made a statement that resonates strongly with me in regard to me and GD both: It sounds exhausting and drama-filled. Who wants to live like that for a lifetime? Yuck.

 

He doesn't like my drama. I don't like his. Absolutely no arguments there. The demand of love me or else seems to be exactly that though...

 

Tri, you know what I'm saying no?

 

Carrot

[sunshinegirl]

That you are starting to doubt yourself is a pretty classic symptom of gaslighting. I had a boyfriend 5-6 years ago who managed to make me so crazy that I was convinced (as was he) that I was the broken, dysfunctional person in the relationship, not him. Reality was so far the other way it wasn't even funny - he was a closet homosexual and fit all the diagnostic criteria for Narcissistic Personality Disorder. So, first, I would say, be very very careful of his behavior somehow becoming your "normal" while your behavior becomes the "problem".

 

Sorry to jump into this in the middle but thank you for writing this! I feel EXACTLY like this.. and I am still going back and forth with my ex. It was just so nice to see the description that so clearly describes my situation, to the proverbial T. Except for the closeted homosexual part..

 

Thanks again! Would love to know how you actually moved on from this type of person.. I have been struggling for a year now since the original break up. He's still around and I still feel crazy..

 

I'll try not to threadjack too much here.

 

How did I move on? Anti-depressants, therapy, venting to friends, and distance (both space and time). He dumped me in December 02, just before my finals week in grad school. Had a miserable spring semester but managed to pull off straight As in five classes (guess I poured my energy into school). I then spent the next summer in Cameroon where I had a fling with a hot local who was totally wrong for me. I journaled all summer, mostly a ton of vitriolic hatred toward him. But that little fling, along with living on my own in a francophone country, restored my self-confidence like nothing else and I became interested in things that were totally new to me and things that he had no connection to whatsoever. To be sure, I thought about him periodically for another year, until I inadvertently found out he was gay. A few weeks more of processing that and then I was done - roughly around March 04. By July 04 I was in a very promising new relationship with a guy who was 1000% better than the gay narcissist. (As if he would have been hard to improve upon!) SO. All in all it took me over 2 years to recover from the jerk.

 

ETA: The ironic post-script to that nightmare period in my life is that I still see him occasionally - got an email from him this morning, in fact. We are in the same professional circles in the same city so we rub elbows every now and then. This, however, is the sign that I have truly let everything about that relationship go: some friends and I made a birthday video for my sister in which everyone mistakes me for her (it happens in real life). So we filmed a bunch of people saying hi to me as though I'm my sister. We brainstormed the idea of getting my gay narcissistic ex to film one of those scenes - and he was totally game for it. So now we have footage of him and I having a conversation where he's pretending I'm my sister. It's hil-arious and a fitting end/letting go/redemption of what was one of the worst periods of my life.

[carrotgirl]

Ick, ick, and ICK !!!! Carrott !!!

 

If a man does not want to be exclusive with you, he is SO yesterdays smelly garbage. Relationships are hard enough when you are both committed and head over heels !

Oh Melody! I missed you!

 

And so this is to you and Tri too, because I'm not arguing with either of you. I'm seeking a different way of looking at all this for myself.

 

Seriously, all of this is what makes me feel like I'm having some serious functional issues, not GD. And folks, GD isn't gaslighting. There isn't anyone else for him. There's only been me. I know it. He knows I know. And vice versa. He knows there's no one else for me. Obviously despite the break, he doesn't want to let go. I never wanted to in the first place.

 

To be fair, he is probably going well out of his way not to criticize or complain but even I see this in response to his Giant Douche decisions, I'm reacting like a spoiled little girl, tantrums, hyperbole, the works. A Giant Veruca Salt to his Giant Doucheyness. I want what I want, when I want it, how I want it and if I don't get it, I'm going to scream.

 

And surprise! He doesn't like this. I don't like it. It's beginning to feel almost compulsive. I don't like it. (No, I'm not literally screaming at the man people.) When GD behaves nicely, I behave nicely. When GD behaves badly, I ignore or I react or I overreact. If you figure the responses to bad behavior are about even, I'm 2/3 reacting. Yuck.

 

So just because he says I couldn't keep us together that way, but I'm showing you I'm trying to keep us together this way, I'm supposed to give him the big kiss off? I would have preferred the other sort of break up I think. The kind where the OP says .... and I don't ever want to see you or speak to you or have anything to do with you again, and then makes it so. But that isn't what happened.

 

 

Carrot

[carrotgirl]

Ick, ick, and ICK !!!! Carrott !!!

and GD .....is going into POLITICS ? He LOOKS like a giant douche !

Since when has looking (or acting) like a giant douche spelled political disaster for a man?

 

Carrot

[sunshinegirl]

Oh Melody! I missed you!

 

And so this is to you and Tri too, because I'm not arguing with either of you. I'm seeking a different way of looking at all this for myself.

 

Seriously, all of this is what makes me feel like I'm having some serious functional issues, not GD. And folks, GD isn't gaslighting. There isn't anyone else for him. There's only been me. I know it. He knows I know. And vice versa. He knows there's no one else for me. Obviously despite the break, he doesn't want to let go. I never wanted to in the first place.

 

To be fair, he is probably going well out of his way not to criticize or complain but even I see this in response to his Giant Douche decisions, I'm reacting like a spoiled little girl, tantrums, hyperbole, the works. A Giant Veruca Salt to his Giant Doucheyness. I want what I want, when I want it, how I want it and if I don't get it, I'm going to scream.

 

And surprise! He doesn't like this. I don't like it. It's beginning to feel almost compulsive. I don't like it. (No, I'm not literally screaming at the man people.) When GD behaves nicely, I behave nicely. When GD behaves badly, I ignore or I react or I overreact. If you figure the responses to bad behavior are about even, I'm 2/3 reacting. Yuck.

 

So just because he says I couldn't keep us together that way, but I'm showing you I'm trying to keep us together this way, I'm supposed to give him the big kiss off? I would have preferred the other sort of break up I think. The kind where the OP says .... and I don't ever want to see you or speak to you or have anything to do with you again, and then makes it so. But that isn't what happened.

 

 

Carrot

 

The only thing that seems obvious here is that you don't work TOGETHER.

 

But back to the gaslighting thing: gaslighting has nothing to do with whether or not there is anyone else in the picture. Honestly, I would do some reading up on Narcissistic Personality Disorder and/or commitmentphobia and/or whatever other cluster of personality disorders are related to the two. Maybe, in the end, you're right and you're the one with the problems. But it is very concerning to see you so willingly take on blame and responsibility for making the relationship work.

 

I would bet a large amount of money that this relationship does NOT work over the long term - if for no other reason than emotional exhaustion on your end.

[Trialbyfire]

I hear you. It's not like I haven't thought about this.

 

I just wonder what the point of making this demand is. Sunshinegirl made a statement that resonates strongly with me in regard to me and GD both: It sounds exhausting and drama-filled. Who wants to live like that for a lifetime? Yuck.

 

He doesn't like my drama. I don't like his. Absolutely no arguments there. The demand of love me or else seems to be exactly that though...

 

Tri, you know what I'm saying no?

 

Carrot

No, it has nothing to do with love me or else. It's a matter of whether he's ready for a commitment or not. Anyone can excuse any kind of behaviour but is it making you happy? Nope...

 

Okay, try this. He reacts, you don't. Try this for several months and see how it goes. I suspect you'll be ready to explode and in the interim, he'll be agitating to get his drama fix.

[carrotgirl]

The only thing that seems obvious here is that you don't work TOGETHER.

Sunshine, you've got some good fat for me to chew. What's maddening for me, and to some extent, the people around us daily who are invested in us, is that actually, we're great together! But only when we're together. When we're not together everything sort of .... stops.

 

I'm secure in knowing that his issues with the relationship as a whole are immaturity. His issues with me and my nits and niggles are generally fair.

 

And regarding mental-emotional health? For a long time I was doing better with the breakup than he was. Barely believable but true. That was all then. Whatever he needed to do to heal, he's been doing and now he's functioning much better than I am. Other people don't necessarily notice this, but we notice the shifts in the other. They're there.

 

I don't think I'm deranged or delusional. I think I'm rather unhealthy in a depressed way generally these days. Whether I was a certain way before or am a certain way naturally, I'm in a big, scary rut now. I'm working to get out of it but my progress is painfully slow and the work shhit isn't helping. Such is life.

 

Carrot

[carrotgirl]

No, it has nothing to do with love me or else. It's a matter of whether he's ready for a commitment or not. Anyone can excuse any kind of behaviour but is it making you happy? Nope...

 

Okay, try this. He reacts, you don't. Try this for several months and see how it goes. I suspect you'll be ready to explode and in the interim, he'll be agitating to get his drama fix.

Yah. I know. I know the truth of this in my bones. I know he loves me. I know know know he isn't ready for a commitment. I don't excuse his shhitty behavior. I just also allow that I'm rather shhitty myself at times. And okay, I also make some mistakes in judgment too. NOT ALL! Just some.

 

Let's be very fair. The worst things GD has ever done to me are telling me some lies about not terribly important things and he's hurt my feelings. I've done the same.

 

GD is a good man. I complain a lot but that's because it's a nice safe place to complain a lot. And also, I think, generally a safe way to work through things that are often difficult to work through even with friends or professionals. So I do that. It probably paints GD in a worse picture than he deserves.

 

I truly don't like having a double standard, men get one rule, women get another. It's hard to resist typical patriarchal views. But it's just as hard (for me anyway) to resist going too far in the opposite direction. I need to feel that I'm at least making the effort to be fair or I don't think I'm making strong decisions for myself.

 

I could spend the summer ignoring GD. I could do that. How about let's wait until after dinner when he gets home.

 

Carrot

[Trialbyfire]

I'm not here to tear you apart from GD. Where I stand is that I hate to see you hanging onto someone who won't give it his all. It's been over 8 months since you joined LS. Eight months of being unhappy whether you're apart in no contact or together in a dating situation. How long will you allow this to go on for?

 

Let's pretend that you get beyond this and it magically becomes an exclusive, committed relationship. The stereotypical next step would be to either move in together or get engaged or both. Imagine how torturous that would be, with this constant push/pull of emotions.

 

Imagine using that time instead, to move on from an uncommitted man and finding yourself someone who is mature enough to commit.