Individual Counseling Hurtful in an Affair?

[n9688m]

Further, I do not have the right to judge you negatively just because you don't value the compassion and objectivity that I do.

 

Fair enough. But if you told me you valued commitment extremely highly and I married you with that in mind and then you backed out like this, then I do think I would have the right to judge you negatively. That's different from say if you told me upfront you'll stay in the marriage only until something better comes along.

 

For myself, I do not equate qualities like acceptance and forgiveness with the act of condoning behaviour

 

Then what else would I be doing by forgiving her action? I don't understand the concept of "forgiveness is for me." What does forgiveness mean to you? To me it says "What you did was OK" - and frankly I don't think I will ever feel that way about my STBXW even though I certainly will move on.

 

That is, I can forgive "you" AND still never want to see "you" again.

 

Fair enough. To each his/her own. I sure could not do that.

 

 

Reading between the lines (which of course, I may be totally wrong and way off), you're seeing for yourself only [a] role of victim -- of your wife's 14-year-long lies and deception, and/or the OM, and/or the counselor, and/or some combination

 

Correct

 

But, IMO, another option is that you can decide that you are perfectly adequate, a wonderful human being, and 100% empowered to choose your own thoughts, feelings and interpretations of Life and your life experiences.

 

That is correct too

[n9688m]

Well...any decision about that would be based on what I most value -- as is human nature.

 

I think you said a few posts back that you went through this as the one who left (minus an affair).

 

How did your husband respond at the time? How has he felt about this with the passage of time?

[Ronni_W]

How did your husband respond at the time? How has he felt about this with the passage of time?

Well, actually. He went to couples' counseling from the perspective of doing *me* a favour - just went and sat there - with a counselor whose 'style' was to also just sit there. As you may imagine, THAT worked out real well.

 

We both went through the phase of anger and blaming each other for everything, and we also couldn't see our way clear to accepting our own roles, dysfunctions and "relationship breakdown responsibilities".

 

I think it's just natural to distort reality a bit (on both sides), in an attempt to shape it so we come out looking a little "better" than the other. And looking for sympathy, and that type of thing. But there is an equal number of "off-setting" dysfunctions going on, which we just can see with greater clarity in others than ourselves.

 

By all appearances, the passage of time stood him in good stead. But I really will never know what actually did go on, and is going on, inside his head. He said he was able to move on, and that's really all I can go by that is concrete. But sometimes I do doubt if it was as easy for him as he let on.

[Ronni_W]

That is, I can forgive "you" AND still never want to see "you" again.

Fair enough. To each his/her own. I sure could not do that.

 

It's something that I've learned to do, through lots of hard work and practice, to be honest. There was a time when I would also have said that it isn't within my capacity to do. And, as I mentioned, sometimes it is easier and other times it is extremely challenging.

 

For me, I've reached 'forgiveness' when I'm no longer obsessed about how "you" hurt and mistreated me, and done me wrong. That is, when I think of "you", I don't get supremely irate and self-righteous, and I don't have 89 million thoughts of all the bad things I want to happen to you.

 

Because I don't at all enjoy feeling irate, self-righteous and vengeful, it is in my own interest to find forgiveness...it is for me to NOT feel crappy about myself. As you say, though, to each his own.

[n9688m]

For me, I've reached 'forgiveness' when I'm no longer obsessed about how "you" hurt and mistreated me, and done me wrong.

 

Perhaps so. But it's not justa bout hurting "me". It's about hurting the kids.

 

Now there are certainly some situations which merit going directly to divorce without a credible attempt at counseling - physical abuse for example is one of them. But I surely don't think "neither one of knew she was unhappy until this week" in that category. I think she will forever complicate the kids' life and set a very poor role model for them, and in that respect I don't see how I can forgive her. It's hard for me to see what could be a more important value than the kids.

 

That said, one aspect of this whole situation which has me extraordinarily perplexed is that my wife has been an incredibly dedicated mom and now we will be sharing custody equally. It is beyond my imagination how she can do someting like this which will result in her not being able to see our 2 young girls go to sleep half of the nights of the year.

[Gunny376]

From the book "After The Affair" by [COLOR=#003399]Janis Abrahms Spring[/COLOR] (Author)

 

Affairs are not one night stands. Cheating can be a one night stand, a short lived infraction, or a habit. In either case, cheating or affair, the result is a show of disrespect for one's partner. Infidelity can occur for many reasons. Boredom, unfulfilled psyche issues, addiction, revenge, emotional insecurity ( immaturity ), and poor judgment during times of inhibition, to name a few. Affairs usually begin with emotional bonding, then proceed to physical intimacy. Affairs of the heart usually start as friendships, progress to emotionally connected, then develop a chemistry. Somewhere between friendship and emotionally connected, something dangerous occurs and the individuals develop a common bond. It can be a common bond of dissatisfaction at home or with their significant other. The individuals involved somehow find a common thread in which they can share discussions, listening, problem solving. In most cases, when the individuals are of the opposite sex, and involved with other people, this starts a recipe for an affair. As the friendship bond progresses and strengthens, a potential progression of this bonding brings with it the danger of progressing physical intimacy. If either of the individuals involved are experiencing home based relationship issues which are causing dissatisfaction, then the risk of affair is higher.

 

What is causing you so much difficulty is in reconciling your moral compass to your actual reality.

 

The couseling she's receving isn't for you, your marriage ~ but for her and to assist her to reconcile her internal moral conflicts with her reality. When cheaters cheat and enter into the fog of the affiair any and everything is rationalized, justified, and righteous in their minds. And that could be any and everything.

 

Its a self defeating game your playing with her, and the only one that your hurting is yourself by playing it. You're not going to win the argument.

 

And sadly more times the not, its the cheater that heaps the failure of the marriage/relationship upon the cheated to alievate any and all guilt they may have.

 

Apparently she's having trouble with this, because she's seeking the help of a counselor (who btw have a higher rate of divorce than the average population). And she's obviously has found one who's justifying what she's doing, as in "Yea its prefectally normall for you to lie, cheat, have an affair, be a selfish lying bitch who cares only about themselves ~ I know because that's the way I feel about it myself!

 

Yea! She's crazy for leaving ~ but man ~ just let her go!

[Ronni_W]

But it's not justa bout hurting "me". It's about hurting the kids.

Yep...it is so incredibly difficult for parents to NOT want to feel responsible for their kids' feelings and experiences.

 

It is 100% understandable that you cannot imagine how she can do what she's doing, or why she is doing it. But you're not obligated to do that.

 

You are not obligated to be able to explain it to your kids, your families, your friends...or even to yourself, for that matter.

Her explanations, reasons, and/or excuses (depending on what you want to call them) are HER obligation, HER responsibility, HER job to handle.

 

I would just say along the lines of, "I don't know...ask Mom (your sister) (whatever)" -- you do not have to protect or 'cover for' her about ANY of it.

[n9688m]

you do not have to protect or 'cover for' her about ANY of it.

 

The issue isn't wanting her to "cover" for her actions.

 

It's rather not wanting her to cover for her actions.

 

She would be thrilled for our girls to forever have a neutral view of why mom/dad divorced. But I don't see it that way. I think at an appropriate age they need to know the full truth if for no other reason than to not repeat mom's actions.

 

As for the rest of the community, I don't see any reason for me to be silent. If I say nothing and start dating soon then 99% of people will probably assume I abandoned my family to seek a trophy wife. Let them know the real truth.

[Gunny376]

BS!

 

They're children ~ they're not STUPID!

 

Get in your car and drive to the mall right freaking now, and randomly poll 100 women/men ~ a 1000 and they will each and everyone will tell you at least one thing if not more ~ how they so much don't want to be like or end up like their parents in some way, shape, form or fashion?

 

What your after is to prove to your children that you did all you could and did all that you knew to do to hold this family and this marraige together, and that despite that ~ it still failed!

 

Guess what Slick! They already know that!

 

What they need to know from YOU? Is that no matter what, come Hell or high water, thunder and damnation you're always are going to be there for them and will love them un-conditionally! Without hesitation, without reservation!

[Gunny376]

I can honestly look back on my failed mariage and admitt I was one dumb, clueless, ignorant, stupid bastard that didn't have a clue as to how to be married nor in a realtionship.

 

But I gave it my all, and I did the best that I could and had at the time! I gave it 110% at the time, I gave it my all! I gave all that I had to give at the time! All that I knew to give at the time!

 

Of course it wasn't enough. I didn't have a freaking clue what "emotional needs" meant. I thought in so long as I had a good steady job, was bringing home "the bacon" keeping my family feed, clothed, wasn't drinkning up the rent, gambling away the grocery money, on drugs ~ that THAT was enough!

 

Man? I didn't have a freaking clue.

 

And despite a college degree, and despite reading all these books I've read? I still don't have all the answers to all the questions, nor all the solutions to all the problems!

 

AND I NEVER WILL!

[n9688m]

What they need to know from YOU? Is that no matter what, come Hell or high water, thunder and damnation you're always are going to be there for them and will love them un-conditionally! Without hesitation, without reservation!

 

 

You mean like my STBXW promised to me?

 

Yep - the girls are learning a really good lesson there.

[Gunny376]

You mean like my STBXW promised to me?

 

Yep - the girls are learning a really good lesson there.

 

They're going to learn it from YOU! Not the STBXW! The STBXW is the 180 of your moral compass.

 

They will follow "true north" if you set the example!

 

But you've got to set the course and be engaged in thier lives ~ and that means not getting serious with someone else.

 

That's what being a parent is all about ~ scarificinbg your wants and needs for those of your children. Being a part of someone

~ something greater than yourself!

[n9688m]

But you've got to set the course and be engaged in thier lives ~ and that means not getting serious with someone else.

 

Woahhhhhhhhh.... The rest of the thread contains interesting and reasonable alternative viewpoints. But respectfully this one goes off the deep end.

 

Why on earth is getting serious with someone else incompatible with being engaged in their lives? I fully intend to be on match.com, speed dating, and whatever else the day after my wife moves out. I will also share custody equally with my wife and will be involved in all of my kids' activities just as usual. When the time comes that I am serious about someone else, my kids will be part of the deal and that person will be included in my kids' events. I don't see where there is a problem here.

 

Now ironically my youngest daughter already has clearly been thinking and told me "Dad I don't think you should date because two mommies would be confusing." Of course she was also intuitive enough to tell me a couple months ago "Dad I think if moms and dads get divorced they should do it before they have kids." Now those great words of wisdom aside, life must go on and I can't see why having a close relationship with someone is incompatible with being engaged with my kids.

[Ronni_W]

You mean like my STBXW promised to me?

 

Yep - the girls are learning a really good lesson there.

 

If I may, is it possible that you are in process of developing 'bitterness and cynicism' as a mindset?

Which is fine, of course, if you'll also be able to control it and only direct it at other adults.

 

But, be cautious as it is known to be much more difficult to consistently control a mindset or specific behaviour. That is, in the long-term, it is easier to put forth initial efforts to totally eliminate the negative thought patterns/habits than it is to every day have to try to manage them.

 

 

There is a world of difference between parent-child love/unconditional love, and adult-adult love. It is like comparing apples and automobiles.

(so) It really doesn't matter what any other adult promised you, regarding love or anything else. That has absolutely no bearing on, and nothing to do with your relationship with your children. If you let the one influence the other...well, it's up to you do decide what that'll tell you about yourself, and tell your kids about you.

 

And finally, as Gunny mentioned, what the girls will learn from YOU is quite separate and apart from what the girls will learn from their other adults, including teachers, faith & political leaders, family members...and yes, from Mom.

If you do allow how you parent to be influenced by all your girls' OTHER life experiences (over which neither you nor they have any control)...well, again, it's up to you do decide what that'll tell you about yourself, and tell your kids about you.

 

Seriously. Don't let this horrible situation turn you into a lesser man and Dad than you have the potential to be.

PLEASE, if only for the sake of your children.

[n9688m]

It really doesn't matter what any other adult promised you, regarding love or anything else. That has absolutely no bearing on, and nothing to do with your relationship with your children.

 

Sure it is relevant. When we got married, mom promised me that we would make family needs more important than any of our individual needs. But Mom has utterly failed in the regard, both by having an an affair (which weakened our family ties) and by making only a pretend effort at counseling (due to the affair ongoing during counseling).

 

I think the kids have a right to know this when they are old enough to understand it. In fact, I think I have an obligation to tell them so they can learn not to repeat Mom's actions in their own lives.

 

If you let the one influence the other...well, it's up to you do decide what that'll tell you about yourself, and tell your kids about you.

 

It will tell my kids that when I make a commitment I stick to it. And that mom's failure to live up to her commitment caused the destruction of our family.

[TrustInYourself]

Sure it is relevant. When we got married, mom promised me that we would make family needs more important than any of our individual needs. But Mom has utterly failed in the regard, both by having an an affair (which weakened our family ties) and by making only a pretend effort at counseling (due to the affair ongoing during counseling).

 

I think the kids have a right to know this when they are old enough to understand it. In fact, I think I have an obligation to tell them so they can learn not to repeat Mom's actions in their own lives.

 

 

 

It will tell my kids that when I make a commitment I stick to it. And that mom's failure to live up to her commitment caused the destruction of our family.

 

Yeah, you're angry. So was I. You have a decision to make. Do you carry that anger and let it taint your relationship with your children? I'm not saying it's not justified. It's justified anger. The question is just because you have a reason to be angry, should you be angry? Do you allow the circumstances to control your state of mind?

 

Your kids are smart enough to see what your wife is doing. I know when my parents divorced, I did not want to know either perspective. I just wanted my parents love and vice versa. I'd suggest just providing love rather than trying to teach them their mother cheated, lied, and destroyed your family. That could cause them to hurt and feel pain, because, in the end, that's still their mother.

 

Good luck and best wishes. I hope you feel better soon.

[n9688m]

Your kids are smart enough to see what your wife is doing. I know when my parents divorced, I did not want to know either perspective.

 

Actually at age 7 and 11, I don't know if they do understand. Well maybe they wonder why dad cries and mom doesn't - but that's about all they can sense now.

 

Anyway they certainly cannot understand about an affair now. But when they get older yes, I do think they have a right to know. Among other things I think they ought to know as an example so they do not repeat the same behavior their mother has made.

[TrustInYourself]

Actually at age 7 and 11, I don't know if they do understand. Well maybe they wonder why dad cries and mom doesn't - but that's about all they can sense now.

 

Anyway they certainly cannot understand about an affair now. But when they get older yes, I do think they have a right to know. Among other things I think they ought to know as an example so they do not repeat the same behavior their mother has made.

 

I was 8 and I understood it all pretty well. I guess I was well adjusted but I knew my father was cheating on my mother. However, I didn't start resenting my mother until she constantly wanted to tell me about my dad's mistakes. I needed both my parent's support, not them telling me how the other one screwed up.

 

As a kid, the last thing I wanted was to be involved in my parents' mistakes and problems. My mother telling me how my father was a cheating ******* never taught me anything viable, except how to not be angry, resentful person over circumstances out of my control.

 

Whatever you decide to do, I hope you find happiness. Take it easy!

[n9688m]

I was 8 and I understood it all pretty well. I guess I was well adjusted but I knew my father was cheating on my mother.

 

How did you know except through your mother?

[serial muse]

I was 8 and I understood it all pretty well. I guess I was well adjusted but I knew my father was cheating on my mother. However, I didn't start resenting my mother until she constantly wanted to tell me about my dad's mistakes. I needed both my parent's support, not them telling me how the other one screwed up.

 

As a kid, the last thing I wanted was to be involved in my parents' mistakes and problems. My mother telling me how my father was a cheating ******* never taught me anything viable, except how to not be angry, resentful person over circumstances out of my control.

 

Whatever you decide to do, I hope you find happiness. Take it easy!

 

I think this is a really important point. Whatever you do, don't try to make "allies" out of your kids. Just be their dad, as you would anyway.

 

My mom never really talked about what went down with my dad (he cheated, they divorced, while I was still a baby) until we were much older, and even then she was careful not to say incendiary things, just gave some of the facts. She always facilitated visits and was perfectly pleasant to him in public. And I now have the deepest respect for her strength of character and class as a result of the way she handled it. Trust your kids.

[serial muse]

By the way, I wonder if you'd consider individual counseling yourself? Despite what Gunny says, I think the vast majority of counselors are trying to do their job, which is to help their clients figure things out for themselves. In your wife's case - yes, that might involve leaving the marriage, if she really wants out. (Which, in that case, would probably also be better for you.) But it's not about encouraging her selfishness; that's a spin that I suspect your wife is putting on whatever the counselor is telling her, because yes, she's in the "affair fog," and is looking for external justification for her actions, as NJ said earlier.

 

But my point is, you, too, deserve to have someone focus on you the individual outside of your marriage, and to better understand what might make you happiest. It's possible that within the marriage, you were swallowing your own unhappiness, and right now the attention is all on your wife's state of mind. But yours matters too - perhaps you really do think you'd be happiest together, but now would be a very good time to sit down with a neutral party and just be willing to focus on what you want.

[n9688m]

perhaps you really do think you'd be happiest together, but now would be a very good time to sit down with a neutral party and just be willing to focus on what you want.

 

I did briefly but I don't see much point to it as frankly what I "want" is moot if my wife has made the decision.

 

More importantly, regardless of what "I" might want I would surely support couples counseling before making a selfish decision. And you can't do credible couples counseling during an affair. That's where my anger comes from.

[Ronni_W]

It will tell my kids that when I make a commitment I stick to it. And that mom's failure to live up to her commitment caused the destruction of our family.

Do you not think though, that you can teach a lesson about commitment much more eloquently and gracefully if YOU consistently show YOUR own commitment, to your children and to others, through YOUR actions?

 

And here's some other stuff to at least give some thought to:

 

When you do start to bad-mouth their mother at whatever age you feel is "appropriate" to learn this stuff, YOU will be teaching them how to hate, resent, judge, blame, and be the helpless victims of others. You will be teaching them how to be small and petty.

 

When you do start to bad-mouth their mother, you will also be confirming that your own marital commitment to her was made of exactly the same fabric as hers, to you -- that your commitment to her meant nothing EXCEPT as long as she did certain things in the specific ways that met with your approval/standards.

 

You will be teaching them that, if they want your consistent love and commitment, they had better do exactly what, when and how you tell them, all in accordance with your personal preferences, likes, dislikes, whims, standards and morals.

You will be telling them that they do NOT get to choose these things for themselves...and if they do dare choose for themselves, they will lose your love and commitment.

 

You will make yourself look so much worse than you could ever hope to make their Mother look.

 

In your children's eyes, if their mother simply continues to love, support and encourage them no matter what, she will NEVER be seen a "failure" by them.

You do not have the power to turn them against their mother, nor to turn her into a "failure" just because that's how you see her and how you want them to see her.

 

Only their mother has the power to influence their feelings for, and perception of, her. And they will NOT be judging her by your standards and morals. They have their own brains, hearts and Souls; their own likes, dislikes and preferences.

 

It is also worth considering that bad-mouthing either parent in front of his/her child(ren) is a form of mental cruelty/emotional abuse...and you intend to subject your children to that. You are consciously making a plan to emotionally abuse your children at the "appropriate age".

 

It is that your stbx's needs, desires, and life goals have changed since she got married. She no longer wants what she wanted 14+ years ago. It happens, and you are free to rage against it for eternity. But it's not a license to do to children what you are planning to do.

 

It is the opposite of love and commitment, that you are planning to show/teach your children.

 

Sending Love and Light,

Ronni

[Gunny376]

Woahhhhhhhhh.... The rest of the thread contains interesting and reasonable alternative viewpoints. But respectfully this one goes off the deep end.

 

Why on earth is getting serious with someone else incompatible with being engaged in their lives? I fully intend to be on match.com, speed dating, and whatever else the day after my wife moves out. I will also share custody equally with my wife and will be involved in all of my kids' activities just as usual. When the time comes that I am serious about someone else, my kids will be part of the deal and that person will be included in my kids' events. I don't see where there is a problem here.

 

Now ironically my youngest daughter already has clearly been thinking and told me "Dad I don't think you should date because two mommies would be confusing." Of course she was also intuitive enough to tell me a couple months ago "Dad I think if moms and dads get divorced they should do it before they have kids." Now those great words of wisdom aside, life must go on and I can't see why having a close relationship with someone is incompatible with being engaged with my kids.

 

A year or two perhaps even five after you've been divorced, and after you've been in your next LTR relationship, and after your children have grown and gone you'll have a clear pretty picture in your head and point of reference as to what I'm talking about.

 

After the divorce ~ regardless your going to go through at least one re-bound / transistionary relationship.

[n9688m]

It is also worth considering that bad-mouthing either parent in front of his/her child(ren) is a form of mental cruelty/emotional abuse...and you intend to subject your children to that. You are consciously making a plan to emotionally abuse your children at the "appropriate age".

 

What you say is helpful and I surely need a lot of time to think through this.

 

But why is it "bad-mouthing" to simply state the facts?

 

If nothing else why is it not helpful for them to at some point understand what happened in our marriage so that they do not repeat history.

 

It is that your stbx's needs, desires, and life goals have changed since she got married.

 

Absent the affair it might well be that my wife and I conclude "we have changed" and part friends after a credible effort at counseling.

 

But the affair changes that enormously. I don't think she can even know what she wants while in the fog of an affair.