Thinking evil thoughts ...

[jj2007]

Does that make you proud? That someone has lied about how long that they've been in a R with you?

 

Wow, what a wonderful thing to express pride in (not). That and the fact that he lied to you about even being married in the first place.

 

What a great foundation to build a life on.

 

 

EXACTLY!!

[Lookingforward]

Well, I'm in a "successful" marriage. It AIN'T purgatory on my end at least. Nor do I get the impression that my wife feels that way either.

 

Sorry guys, but while I know that you're both trying to point out that there are marriages out there that are just held together by words, I want to point out that there are also a lot of GOOD marriages out there too.

 

I don't share your views on marriage, clearly.

 

I see nothing wrong with "belonging to" my wife, or her "belonging to" me.

 

And I see nothing wrong with the idea of choosing not to be married for those that don't care for the concept.

 

I don't feel that their choice to not marry means that they live unhappy lives.

 

I ALSO don't feel that those who DO choose to marry live unhappy lives either. I just don't care for inferring that those who do stay married a long time are unhappy, dysfunctional, or otherwise flawed or in a flawed relationship.

 

Owl, but in this forum we're not usually addressing the TRUE happy marriages are we ? Not saying they're not out there........

 

was more speaking to those marriages that are total shams not being any "better" in some intrinsic way than those Ms that end.....

[Owl]

But...you can't know if they're "TRUE" recovered marriages or not from the outside...

 

And what I see here is a lot of assumptions that they're not...with no backup reasoning behind it. How do you KNOW that the only 'success criteria' was the years that the marriage lasted?

 

It looks more like "sour grapes" posts than anything else.

[Lookingforward]

But...you can't know if they're "TRUE" recovered marriages or not from the outside...

 

And what I see here is a lot of assumptions that they're not...with no backup reasoning behind it. How do you KNOW that the only 'success criteria' was the years that the marriage lasted?

 

It looks more like "sour grapes" posts than anything else.

 

It's not "sour grapes" at all - in fact I'm saddened, if anything, by the number of bad Ms I see related here - it kinda makes me wonder if relationships are worth pursuing at all........

 

Obviously I don't "KNOW", I'm just going by the posts I see here.....

[Owl]

Per your comment earlier, this is the OW/OM forum. Of course the viewpoint we're getting is of 'bad marriages'. If they were good marriages, the OW wouldn't stick around.

 

As I've said in the past...MM won't say that they're in a good marriage most of the time...because that doesn't give them a 'reason' (read, rationalization and justification) to cheat. If its not a "bad marriage"...then its pure selfishness...which is a major turn off for most people.

 

Ergo...he tells the OW that he's in a bad marriage, just staying for the kids/debts/dog...it makes him look noble and selfless, instead of self-centered and selfish.

 

If it was a GOOD marriage, he'd look like the jack@$$ that he probably is.

[Lookingforward]

Per your comment earlier, this is the OW/OM forum. Of course the viewpoint we're getting is of 'bad marriages'. If they were good marriages, the OW wouldn't stick around.

 

As I've said in the past...MM won't say that they're in a good marriage most of the time...because that doesn't give them a 'reason' (read, rationalization and justification) to cheat. If its not a "bad marriage"...then its pure selfishness...which is a major turn off for most people.

 

Ergo...he tells the OW that he's in a bad marriage, just staying for the kids/debts/dog...it makes him look noble and selfless, instead of self-centered and selfish.

 

If it was a GOOD marriage, he'd look like the jack@$$ that he probably is.

 

Which doesn't mean it wasn't a BAD marriage, does it ? Or are you saying ALL MMs are liars now ? and fwiw , I was referring in a large part to the threads on other boards here such as the Marriage board.........

[OWoman]

Ergo...he tells the OW that he's in a bad marriage, just staying for the kids/debts/dog...it makes him look noble and selfless, instead of self-centered and selfish.

 

There's a huge difference between wussy and noble, IMO... And if he's a wuss in his M, I can't imagine he'd be much good in bed. And I'm not dropping my knickers for disappointment.

 

If it was a GOOD marriage, he'd look like the jack@$$ that he probably is.

 

He'd look more honest, I reckon. And more likely to shape between the sheets. A guy who's miserable at home is not taking initiative, and a lover lacking initiative and creativity is not someone I'm mixing body fluids with.

 

The "jackass" IMO is the dweeb standing shuffling his feet with a hangdog expression muttering about his W not understanding him. If I want hard luck stories I'll hang with the hobos under the bridge. At least they're entertaining.

[grogster]

There's a huge difference between wussy and noble, IMO... And if he's a wuss in his M, I can't imagine he'd be much good in bed. And I'm not dropping my knickers for disappointment.

 

 

 

He'd look more honest, I reckon. And more likely to shape between the sheets. A guy who's miserable at home is not taking initiative, and a lover lacking initiative and creativity is not someone I'm mixing body fluids with.

 

The "jackass" IMO is the dweeb standing shuffling his feet with a hangdog expression muttering about his W not understanding him. If I want hard luck stories I'll hang with the hobos under the bridge. At least they're entertaining.

 

OWoman, you can bring it on! I especially like the "mixing body fluids" line.

 

You're a scribe.

[whichwayisup]

Or are you saying ALL MMs are liars now ?

 

Are you serious with this question? Ofcourse ALL MM's are liars because they're cheating on their wives and betraying their whole family, living a lie! MANY MM lie to their OW too, or bend the truth to make them look like the good guy.

[grogster]

Are you serious with this question? Ofcourse ALL MM's are liars because they're cheating on their wives and betraying their whole family, living a lie! MANY MM lie to their OW too, or bend the truth to make them look like the good guy.

 

 

As a reformed MM, I agree. I call it the "Big Lie" or the "Existential Lie." We're not talking little white lies, here. One's very existence becomes false, a facade, a fraud.I experienced as much guilt over my false self as I did over the infidelity. To live a lie before loved ones becomes its own punishment. The stress involved in maintaining the fiction of a happy home life and marriage is unbelievable.

 

There's no way to gloss over this simple fact: an Affair with its love, passion and over-the-top sex is still an act of major deceit, betrayal and falsity. Once the hormones/neurotransmitters subside and the "Affair" fog lifts, then and only then can the wayward spouse see the devastation he/she caused family and loved ones.

[bentnotbroken]

As a reformed MM, I agree. I call it the "Big Lie" or the "Existential Lie." We're not talking little white lies, here. One's very existence becomes false, a facade, a fraud.I experienced as much guilt over my false self as I did over the infidelity. To live a lie before loved ones becomes its own punishment. The stress involved in maintaining the fiction of a happy home life and marriage is unbelievable.

 

There's no way to gloss over this simple fact: an Affair with its love, passion and over-the-top sex is still an act of major deceit, betrayal and falsity. Once the hormones/neurotransmitters subside and the "Affair" fog lifts, then and only then can the wayward spouse see the devastation he/she caused family and loved ones.

 

 

If I may ask, how long did it take for your fog to lift? Was it gradual or a sudden realization?

[pelicanpreacher]

There's a huge difference between wussy and noble, IMO... And if he's a wuss in his M, I can't imagine he'd be much good in bed. And I'm not dropping my knickers for disappointment.

 

 

 

He'd look more honest, I reckon. And more likely to shape between the sheets. A guy who's miserable at home is not taking initiative, and a lover lacking initiative and creativity is not someone I'm mixing body fluids with.

 

The "jackass" IMO is the dweeb standing shuffling his feet with a hangdog expression muttering about his W not understanding him. If I want hard luck stories I'll hang with the hobos under the bridge. At least they're entertaining.

 

And here we go again...

 

Are you saying that a MM you know is lying about the bad state of his marriage makes him look more honest?

 

So your MM, who was abused and miserable at home, was so because he didn't take initiative and, therefore, not a likely candidate as lover because he'd be perceived as a lover lacking in initiative and creativity? How did you start an affair with someone like that?

 

When you first met MM his frame of mind wasn't such that he didn't have any hard luck stories about his marriage?

 

You are truly an enigma!

[grogster]

If I may ask, how long did it take for your fog to lift? Was it gradual or a sudden realization?

 

Given the Affair's length and intensity, moral clarity returned only gradually. I've been 2 years NC, it has been almost 4 years since I've seen the MW and more than 5 years since we were last intimate.

 

I ended the Affair, my marriage and went NC. I have very amicable relations with my ex-wife (we had dinner last night) and solid, supportive relations with my son and daughter who are 19 and 21, respectively. In our way, we're keeping our family together, if not the marriage.

 

As for the MW who I believe was mostly in it for the sexual adventure, I have no idea how she's doing. And I don't care.

[Lookingforward]

Are you serious with this question? Ofcourse ALL MM's are liars because they're cheating on their wives and betraying their whole family, living a lie! MANY MM lie to their OW too, or bend the truth to make them look like the good guy.

 

excuse me ? a MM is a Married Male, not necessarily a cheater........

[Lookingforward]

As for the MW who I believe was mostly in it for the sexual adventure, I have no idea how she's doing. And I don't care.

 

Which is sad in it's own way - to throw a M away for someone you really didn't care that much for apparently.....

[grogster]

Which is sad in it's own way - to throw a M away for someone you really didn't care that much for apparently.....

 

No, I didn't end my M for the MW. That was NEVER an issue. There were other issues, which my recounting would stray too far from the Thread topic.

 

To sum up, I'm happy being single, and even happier not to be in an Affair.

[Owl]

After whining and being married to an abusive wife for how long, is the question.

 

I get the point she was trying to make...your definition of wussy seems to match what MM was like before he met you, and before he FINALLy decided to end the marriage. According to what you've posted, he's been hangdog in an abusive situation where even his kids hated her for years...and only decided to make a change after having established someone to move on to...you.

 

What attracted you to him in the first place, since what you've described of his situation doesn't meet your entrance criteria?

[OWoman]

Are you saying that a MM you know is lying about the bad state of his marriage makes him look more honest?

 

Huh? I'm saying that a MM who is honest and says his M doesn't suck, is far more attractive than one who pretends it does to lure a sympathy shag.

 

So your MM, who was abused and miserable at home, was so because he didn't take initiative and, therefore, not a likely candidate as lover because he'd be perceived as a lover lacking in initiative and creativity? How did you start an affair with someone like that?

 

When you first met MM his frame of mind wasn't such that he didn't have any hard luck stories about his marriage?

 

He had no stories about his M either way. It wasn't something we ever discussed. We discussed terms and conditions - expectations and demands for OUR R - but nothing about his M. Why would we? It was an A - part time, short term, nothing that was going to shake the earth out of its orbit or anything. And, at the point where that changed, I had plenty of info from other sources.

 

I got to know MM in a professional context, where there was plenty of evidence of initiative and creativity! He's a leader in his field, in fact on all fronts except for the abuse at his W's hands. Perhaps that's why he could tune it out so successfully for so long, I don't know. It was, and remains, an anomaly. But no, there was never any "sympathy" factor. Had there been that, it would have killed any hope of passion stone dead.

[OWoman]

What attracted you to him in the first place, since what you've described of his situation doesn't meet your entrance criteria?

 

As I posted just earlier, I got to know him over some time in a professional capacity, where he was anything but wussy. The marriage angle I only discovered with time, and from other sources. But clearly he did have that vulnerability that his W was able to exploit - and it's taken him a great deal of sustained work through counselling to address it.

[OWoman]

Oh, and...

 

After whining

 

 

He has never whined. Ever!

[bentnotbroken]

Given the Affair's length and intensity, moral clarity returned only gradually. I've been 2 years NC, it has been almost 4 years since I've seen the MW and more than 5 years since we were last intimate.

 

I ended the Affair, my marriage and went NC. I have very amicable relations with my ex-wife (we had dinner last night) and solid, supportive relations with my son and daughter who are 19 and 21, respectively. In our way, we're keeping our family together, if not the marriage.

 

As for the MW who I believe was mostly in it for the sexual adventure, I have no idea how she's doing. And I don't care.

 

 

 

It sounds like you have a great relationship with your family. I only hope Mr. Messy comes to his senses where his kids are concerned. I chose not to have a relationship with him at all, it easier for my healing. I do love most of his family though and I plan to maintain those relationships. Thanks for the answers.

[grogster]

It sounds like you have a great relationship with your family. I only hope Mr. Messy comes to his senses where his kids are concerned. I chose not to have a relationship with him at all, it easier for my healing. I do love most of his family though and I plan to maintain those relationships. Thanks for the answers.

 

You're welcome. Good luck in your dealings with "Mr. Messy" and the relationship that never was.

[GreenEyedLady]

Does that make you proud? That someone has lied about how long that they've been in a R with you?

 

Wow, what a wonderful thing to express pride in (not). That and the fact that he lied to you about even being married in the first place.

 

What a great foundation to build a life on.

 

Why do you care about our R at all? It doesn't affect you. I wonder why so many people post things to me at all. It's like the very fact that someone is *gasp* happy is worth trying to tear down. Maybe that's the little green monster coming out?

 

I guess that you can't think of anything better to say than say that he lied to me about his status. HELLO, MCFLY! I KNOW THAT!! And I've forgiven him just like you forgave your H for cheating on you.

 

By the way, he didn't lie to her about how long he was with me;He just straight out didn't tell her. It's none of her business anyway. That's what happens when your divorce your spouse; you don't have to answer their questions anymore.

[GreenEyedLady]

Best to you Gel!!!

 

And to you Mino! Thanks for spelling it out for the others!

 

xoxoxoxo

[NoIDidn't]

Why do you care about our R at all? It doesn't affect you. I wonder why so many people post things to me at all. It's like the very fact that someone is *gasp* happy is worth trying to tear down. Maybe that's the little green monster coming out?

 

I guess that you can't think of anything better to say than say that he lied to me about his status. HELLO, MCFLY! I KNOW THAT!! And I've forgiven him just like you forgave your H for cheating on you.

 

By the way, he didn't lie to her about how long he was with me;He just straight out didn't tell her. It's none of her business anyway. That's what happens when your divorce your spouse; you don't have to answer their questions anymore.

 

I don't care about your R. But YOU continue to hold it up like it is a model for the rest of us, but especially OW.

 

I don't care if you are happy. And what purpose would being jealous of some anonymous person on the internet do for me?

 

As for my H's EA, that has nothing to do with your situation. I was betrayed. I wasn't helping the Betrayer. Apples and oranges, really.

 

My post was no more an attempt to "tear" you down, than yours was an attempt to say that his W is so stupid as to believe that you have only been with him for 6 months. Thanks, but no thanks. I have enough going on in my life to add remembering not to reveal to my in-laws, family, and friends how long I've actually been in a R with my SO.