Why not tell the wife?

[luvmy2ns]

actually this is posted in the OW/OM category

 

And where there's an OW/OM, there is infidelity. So yes - the "category" (not the forum) involves infidelity.

[twice_shy]

I don't always agree with someone's mindset or viewpoint here...but I'll typically not use terms like that so that I avoid alienating a portion of the 'LS populace'.

 

Owl, I respect ya and like ya! But were you one of the founders of Hands Across America??

[OWoman]

So you have experienced betrayal.

 

I was responding to a particular question phrased in a particular context by Owl when I said I'd not experienced what he sketched. When I referred to "betrayals" in the workplace, I used inverted commas which typically signify a qualified - even ironic - use of a term. MOST people do not regard their employment romantically, nor their relationships as work. You are free to do so if you wish, but if you put words into the mouths of others, you must not be surprised when you get it wrong.

 

Still a lot of double talks filled with hypocrisy.

 

What a mature, constructive approach! Politicians do that too - if they don't understand something, and can't refute it through argumentation, they also resort to insult and name calling. It's transparent when they do it, and it's as transparent here.

[OWoman]

You are so far off the mark I didn't even recognise this as a response to my post, until I saw I'd been quoted in it.

 

I was extensively psychometrically profiled as part of a leadership programme, and so I copied and pasted your comments and mailed them off to the consultant who did the profile, as I saw he was online. He graded it 2 out of 10 for accuracy, and 1 out of 10 for coherence - which he said was interesting given that you'd slated my "stream of consciousness" reply to Owl as "wishy washy" and "doubtful".

 

Anyway, I won't waste my time engaging with the content, since I have better things to do than provide opportunities for further insult flinging, but I'm glad to have afforded you and opportunity to practice your Psych 101 skills. I'm sorry you got a failing grade - better luck on your next attempt.

 

This post is the most transparency I've seen from and of you OWoman.

 

Owl presented you what I think was an awesome, however hypothetically viewed by you, that forced you to "think" deep. This is where the real you surfaced. You were very careful in your analysis of the question, and more so in how you answered them. And yet doubtful oncer you've answered it. Your wishy washy answer between "yes, maybe, maybe no to not, definitely not, but then again sorta maybe then to I don't knows" responses to different scenarios.

 

 

 

 

 

But you go on to say...

 

 

I see a woman who appears to be very strong on the surface who also wants people to see her as that. I see a woman who perhaps lived long and enough to have plenty of stories to share to any willing and interested ears. I see a woman who is obviously strong minded and willed. I see a woman who has done well for herself. But I also a woman who is insecure and to deflect such insecurity puts up an "emotional guard" or wall as a defense mechanism. Perhaps other layers she wishes or prefers not to bring up. I see a woman who is indiffent towards others and their circumstances and only being more comfortable with hers to contend with when it hits. This is probably what toughens your position in most of your posts in relation to your A. This is what I meant when I replied, "this explains why you are where you are".

 

OWL replied to you with this...

 

This explains it all.

 

You haven't quite experienced what TRUE betrayal, have you? Perhaps you have. But perhaps of your strong willed position you didn't allow yourself to experience it which comes down to the type of coping mechanism you've built for yourself in order to survive and maintain a sense of "order" in your life. There's nothing wrong with this. Natural human behavior. Everyone has different coping skills. But your "toughness" persona you consistently demonstrated on LS pretty much decided it for you. But it's that type of toughness that sometimes hardens a person's heart. It doesn't allow one to look beyond others except their own. They must experience betrayal or any form of hardship for the heart to feel empathy.

 

I don't know what life experiences you've encountered prior to your A. But, we are a sum product of our past. If we want to know the real truth about ourselves, all we have to do is dig into our family dynamics, our interpersonal relationships with each other. It is our future predictor of what we become.

 

Many of us have painful pasts, some more extreme than others. Problem is, most prefer to bury their pasts for good. But as the story goes, our past soon catches up. Our past becomes the basis for which we now must contend with in our adult life in order to bring some understanding and clarification of who we are and why we are where we are today.

[Owl]

Owl, I respect ya and like ya! But were you one of the founders of Hands Across America??

 

Nope. I just know how to solve problems. You solve a problem by attacking the problem...not the person.

[OWoman]

This makes sense - and certainly resonates with me on many levels. The only problem I have is the "gradual onset thing" part. That is pretty difficult to define, if not impossible.

 

Only with hindsight, if at all I guess. Like ageing - you just look in the mirror one day and realise it's happened (Well, so I'm told.. )

 

The person doing the lying knows they are lying but the person being lied to doesn't usually - hence the lying .

 

Sometimes I also wonder about that - I think some "liars" are so adept at rationalising that they are genuinely unaware that the "reality" they're portraying - to themself as well as to others - is not consistent with the "reality" experienced by those others. I suspect most people view themselves as honest, and so seek to cushion themselves from an admission that they're perhaps not. Some can fool themselves indefinitely; some have a nasty shock and realise they can't sustain the contradictions; still others put themselves through agonies trying. And others just make peace with it, and lie.

 

It is an indictment of the relationship, without a doubt, but the betrayal is IMO still primarily at the hands of the liar. The person being lied to has probably (not positively, but probably) been a participant in the downhill slope of the relationship, but as for betrayal? I dunno - maybe I'm just mincing words, and we're really saying the same thing...

 

I meant betrayal in the sense of not fighting more actively to keep it on track being a betrayal of that starry-eyed ideal... Maybe it is stretching a point, or a metaphor, but perhaps I'm still in the starry-eyed stage and so see it that way.

[OWoman]

Nope. I just know how to solve problems. You solve a problem by attacking the problem...not the person.

 

Or as we say out here, "play the ball and not the man". (I hate sports metaphors, and that one's sexist to boot!)

 

(And yes, my using a sports metaphor - from the same sport - in my following comment WAS deliberate. It's known as "irony" in the vernacular.)

[twice_shy]

Nope. I just know how to solve problems. You solve a problem by attacking the problem...not the person.

 

Alot of the times, and is definitely the case with some people at this site, the person IS the problem.

[Owl]

But attacking the person instead of attacking the problem will only result in the person leaving...and leaves the problem unresolved.

 

If you want people to leave LS without actually ending the affair or taking action to fix the situation...attacking them will solve that goal.

 

I'd rather see someone stay long enough to learn something and fix the situation that brought them here...but that's just me.

[OWoman]

Alot of the times, and is definitely the case with some people at this site, the person IS the problem.

 

now now TS, I wouldn't be so mean about yourself! I'm sure there's nothing broken that can't be fixed...

[twice_shy]

now now TS, I wouldn't be so mean about yourself! I'm sure there's nothing broken that can't be fixed...

 

BWAHAHAHAHA..*cough* *choke* ...*eyes watering*....oh that was witty................................................not

[twice_shy]

But attacking the person instead of attacking the problem will only result in the person leaving...and leaves the problem unresolved.

 

the people I, as you put it, "attack" don't want anything resolved. All they care about is themselves and could give a crap who they hurt.

 

All they care about is continuing their own selfish agenda and to hell with anyone else.

 

If you want people to leave LS without actually ending the affair or taking action to fix the situation...attacking them will solve that goal.

 

 

Again, the people in question don't want to end the affair. If they wanted to end the affair, showed remorse, and actually acted like they gave a sh#t about the person they betrayed, it would be a different story.

[Owl]

So that makes it ok to 'attack' them? What do you hope to gain by posting in such a fashion? Open their eyes? Make them angry and leave? Feel better about yourself? What's the goal of posting to them, if that's your view?

[silktricks]

Sometimes I also wonder about that - I think some "liars" are so adept at rationalising that they are genuinely unaware that the "reality" they're portraying - to themself as well as to others - is not consistent with the "reality" experienced by those others. I suspect most people view themselves as honest, and so seek to cushion themselves from an admission that they're perhaps not. Some can fool themselves indefinitely; some have a nasty shock and realise they can't sustain the contradictions; still others put themselves through agonies trying. And others just make peace with it, and lie.

 

And of course you are correct. Some people do rationalize so well that they don't accept they are lying. They move into an alternative universe where it really does rain up.

 

But, the person being lied to - the one not in that alternative universe - still feels lied to and betrayed. The fact is that the one person they have depended upon NOT to lie to them - has in fact done so. And the lie wasn't an innocuous one like saying you look good when in fact you look like you've just been dragged down the street by a runaway horse .

[NewSunrise]

actually this is posted in the OW/OM category

Reread what I wrote.

This category as Infidelity naturally will always ignite a lot of nerves from all angles. And LS is one forum that brings these touchy subjects to the forefrunt.

This category (OW/OM) "as" (and INFIDELITY") meaning "PLURAL" as in OW/OM AND Infidelity are TWO categories that will...."

 

Your reply just proved my earlier reply to your post. Everyone perceives every post differently as they do what is written by posters.

[Lookingforward]

Reread what I wrote.

 

This category (OW/OM) "as" (and INFIDELITY") meaning "PLURAL" as in OW/OM AND Infidelity are TWO categories that will...."

 

Your reply just proved my earlier reply to your post. Everyone perceives every post differently as they do what is written by posters.

 

apparently some of us can read board header titles better than others

[NewSunrise]

apparently some of us can read board header titles better than others

And some type better than others!:bunny: It's all good!

[NewSunrise]

Only with hindsight, if at all I guess. Like ageing - you just look in the mirror one day and realise it's happened (Well, so I'm told.. )

Worse when you go to work one day and find that you're old enough to be the mother of the new employee.

 

Sometimes I also wonder about that - I think some "liars" are so adept at rationalising that they are genuinely unaware that the "reality" they're portraying - to themself as well as to others - is not consistent with the "reality" experienced by those others. I suspect most people view themselves as honest, and so seek to cushion themselves from an admission that they're perhaps not. Some can fool themselves indefinitely; some have a nasty shock and realise they can't sustain the contradictions; still others put themselves through agonies trying. And others just make peace with it, and lie.

 

That's just it. The more people spend time and energy rationalizing or justifying to others and themselves to be such and such when in reality are otherwise such and such are in actually only fooling themseves. It's a form of defense and coping mechanism to deflect the real truth and not have to deal with. Do you know why? Because to deal with the truth reguire facing the inner ugliness in us. It requires uncovering pain, opening up old wounds and often reliving them. But after awhile, all the rationalizations and justifications become a bottomless pit of denials. For many, easier to do. Their actions, hidden, undermined or even seemingly genuine on the surface aren't what and who they claimed or seemed to be. It's a facade of their ideal self.

 

In general, people are good people. We have in us the ability to be honest and good. But those qualities often get lost and trampled over by our desire to be the first to make it to the finish line first. People will screw anyone who will get in the way of achieving that goal. Be it a promotion, a bonus, lying in court under oath, getting the cheating H to leave the BW, it doesn't make any difference. Just as long as the "ME" factor survives. With regards to this thread, the OW, in an ideal world, sees the BW as the encumbrance to getting to the finish line, at whatever pace that might be.

 

I meant betrayal in the sense of not fighting more actively to keep it on track being a betrayal of that starry-eyed ideal... Maybe it is stretching a point, or a metaphor, but perhaps I'm still in the starry-eyed stage and so see it that way.

This really spoke volume to me. I wasn't quite sure at what stage you were in the A, nor do I know how long you've been in it, but it seems (IMO) to allign with the way or how you've replied to each posts.

 

OWoman, you seem like a very self-assured, independent and intelligent woman who have so much to offer to someone who would like nothing more than to give you his full-time attention, whom you don't have to rely on as in waiting for him to do whatever he needs to do with his life and M, ever asked yourself why you've chosen such a path?

[OWoman]

This really spoke volume to me. I wasn't quite sure at what stage you were in the A, nor do I know how long you've been in it, but it seems (IMO) to allign with the way or how you've replied to each posts.

 

Perhaps you missed the ? I was being ironic.

 

OWoman, you seem like a very self-assured, independent and intelligent woman who have so much to offer to someone who would like nothing more than to give you his full-time attention, whom you don't have to rely on as in waiting for him to do whatever he needs to do with his life and M, ever asked yourself why you've chosen such a path?

 

Thank you for patronising me. "Why I've chosen such a path" has been answered here so many times. Just because my choices are not your own, or because you cannot understand them from your own vantage point, makes them no more inferior or less valid from those you'd have preferred me to make.

[herenow]

Like any other action or decision, it all comes down to who you are a person and how you treat others. If someone is OK with being involved in infidelity and has no moral issues with it, then who am I to argue? If someone has no issue with the fact that there is another person who is part of the triangle that isn't part of the decision, then go for it. If you don't feel that you owe anyone anything because you didn't make any promises, no problem, it's your life. This is a place for opinions to be shared and from what I gather as long as we can do it in a civil manner, then take what you want and leave the rest for others to read. Maybe someone will get some value from what is posted here.

 

I can understand how telling the BW would jeopardize an affair, but I can't understand how a person who engages in an affair is not at least partly responsible for the lies that are told to the betrayed. Just because the AP isn't married to the BS doesn't remove them from the responsibility of the effects of the affair.

 

Before anyone says that it's the cheater that should be blamed. I agree that the cheater is the main source of the problem, but as humans I feel we owe each other the decency of truth and if someone knows that another person is unknowingly being betrayed, I see no problem with allowing that person the benefit of the truth.

 

So, as I said in the beginning to all the OW who have posted here asking "Should I tell?" my opinion as a BW is YES PLEASE!

 

I have said many times that the OW is irrelevant to a marriage after an affair. I do believe that post affair if a couple decides to reconcile, then the OW is not part of that equation and any energy spent on the OW is a step backwards in the healing process. But, while an affair is happening, the OW is very much a part of the marriage and the BW has the right to know what is happening no matter how she finds out. JMO.

[NewSunrise]

Perhaps you missed the ? I was being ironic.

 

Thank you for patronising me. "Why I've chosen such a path" has been answered here so many times. Just because my choices are not your own, or because you cannot understand them from your own vantage point, makes them no more inferior or less valid from those you'd have preferred me to make.

Yes, you certainly have, haven't you?

 

And you are absolutely correct. Many such as myself would not have chosen such a path. Contrary to what you might think, I do understand why you did.

[NewSunrise]

Like any other action or decision, it all comes down to who you are a person and how you treat others. If someone is OK with being involved in infidelity and has no moral issues with it, then who am I to argue? If someone has no issue with the fact that there is another person who is part of the triangle that isn't part of the decision, then go for it. If you don't feel that you owe anyone anything because you didn't make any promises, no problem, it's your life. This is a place for opinions to be shared and from what I gather as long as we can do it in a civil manner, then take what you want and leave the rest for others to read. Maybe someone will get some value from what is posted here.

 

I can understand how telling the BW would jeopardize an affair, but I can't understand how a person who engages in an affair is not at least partly responsible for the lies that are told to the betrayed. Just because the AP isn't married to the BS doesn't remove them from the responsibility of the effects of the affair.

 

Before anyone says that it's the cheater that should be blamed. I agree that the cheater is the main source of the problem, but as humans I feel we owe each other the decency of truth and if someone knows that another person is unknowingly being betrayed, I see no problem with allowing that person the benefit of the truth.

 

So, as I said in the beginning to all the OW who have posted here asking "Should I tell?" my opinion as a BW is YES PLEASE!

 

I have said many times that the OW is irrelevant to a marriage after an affair. I do believe that post affair if a couple decides to reconcile, then the OW is not part of that equation and any energy spent on the OW is a step backwards in the healing process. But, while an affair is happening, the OW is very much a part of the marriage and the BW has the right to know what is happening no matter how she finds out. JMO.

Well said especially this part...

as humans I feel we owe each other the decency of truth

The problem however is that the A is never created with an ounce of decency. But, should such decency considered as in telling the truth, it may actually benefit the OW if her goal is to have the MM. The BW may gladly hand over the WH to the OW sooner than later.

[OWoman]

Yes, you certainly have, haven't you?

 

And you are absolutely correct. Many such as myself would not have chosen such a path. Contrary to what you might think, I do understand why you did.

 

Oh. Then why did you write such a way off the mark psych 101 screed on it earlier, demonstrating that you didn't?

 

I guess I understand your motivation about as well as you understand mine. So perhaps I should also write a long incoherent ramble analysing you, to demonstrate that and return the favour

[OWoman]

All they care about is themselves and could give a crap who they hurt.

 

All they care about is continuing their own selfish agenda and to hell with anyone else.

 

And this differs from your attacking them how?

[OWoman]

So, as I said in the beginning to all the OW who have posted here asking "Should I tell?" my opinion as a BW is YES PLEASE!

 

HN you make this all sound so civilised and rational. I'm sure that if you were the BW of one of the MMs I'd been using as a sex toy, making that request in that kind of way, I'd have had no problem sitting down with you over a cup of coffee to talk.

 

Thing is - and obviously I can't speak for other OWs on this, merely from my own experience - when one is in the middle of an A, calmness and rationality are not really the primary descriptors. As the OW, I had no conception - and wanted none - of the MM outside of the times I summoned him to use as a sex toy. W, kids, job, whatever - was as relevant to me as what colour underwear Ronald Reagan wore on set. So the notion of a W who may have had a request like yours wasn't something that ever fitted into that kind of universe - any more than some teenage girl getting off on fantasies about some movie star would feel the need to phone up the movie star's W and confess.

 

It's highly possible that some of those BWs were as mature and constructive as you - these were all men claiming to be happily married, after all - though the brief glimpses I got of their Ms (phone calls witnessed, emails shown, etc) were not impressive. An absence of respect and way too much inequality of power no doubt made it easy for these MMs to decide to engage with me when approached, and being treated like disposable sex objects - which they were to me - no doubt addressed some imbalance elsewhere... but I wonder if those BWs actually had the self-assurance and confidence to ask, as you have, to hear a truth they would almost certainly not have liked. It's a question I'm almost certain never to get an answer to!