Why not tell the wife?

[herenow]

HN you make this all sound so civilised and rational. I'm sure that if you were the BW of one of the MMs I'd been using as a sex toy, making that request in that kind of way, I'd have had no problem sitting down with you over a cup of coffee to talk.

 

Thing is - and obviously I can't speak for other OWs on this, merely from my own experience - when one is in the middle of an A, calmness and rationality are not really the primary descriptors. As the OW, I had no conception - and wanted none - of the MM outside of the times I summoned him to use as a sex toy. W, kids, job, whatever - was as relevant to me as what colour underwear Ronald Reagan wore on set. So the notion of a W who may have had a request like yours wasn't something that ever fitted into that kind of universe - any more than some teenage girl getting off on fantasies about some movie star would feel the need to phone up the movie star's W and confess.

 

It's highly possible that some of those BWs were as mature and constructive as you - these were all men claiming to be happily married, after all - though the brief glimpses I got of their Ms (phone calls witnessed, emails shown, etc) were not impressive. An absence of respect and way too much inequality of power no doubt made it easy for these MMs to decide to engage with me when approached, and being treated like disposable sex objects - which they were to me - no doubt addressed some imbalance elsewhere... but I wonder if those BWs actually had the self-assurance and confidence to ask, as you have, to hear a truth they would almost certainly not have liked. It's a question I'm almost certain never to get an answer to!

 

There are many things that we don't like to hear, but that doesn't mean we should ignore them. I obviously can't answer any questions about people I don't know, but I can tell you that if the truth hurts, then maybe the reality that caused that truth needs to be looked at.

 

If a MM is having an affair, then IMO, there are issues that run deeper than the sex he is having with the OW that need to be addressed. I believe that the MM himself needs to take a long hard look at why he is living the lie in the first place. Why he has the need to stay married while having an affair with an OW. But, is it really fair for the BW to not have the benefit to change her own reality? I guess as a woman I wonder why another woman would want to become involved in such a lie and then keep the lie from the one person who is in the dark. I don't expect an answer that I will understand, but I do find the discussion interesting.

[outofdarkness]

well said..Correct in my vies

[silktricks]

I guess as a woman I wonder why another woman would want to become involved in such a lie and then keep the lie from the one person who is in the dark. I don't expect an answer that I will understand, but I do find the discussion interesting.

 

This is the reason I began reading/posting on LS to begin with. I do understand now. I'm just not very crazy about what I learned.

[frannie]

If a MM is having an affair, then IMO, there are issues that run deeper than the sex he is having with the OW that need to be addressed. I believe that the MM himself needs to take a long hard look at why he is living the lie in the first place. Why he has the need to stay married while having an affair with an OW. But, is it really fair for the BW to not have the benefit to change her own reality? I guess as a woman I wonder why another woman would want to become involved in such a lie and then keep the lie from the one person who is in the dark. I don't expect an answer that I will understand, but I do find the discussion interesting.

 

Of course it's not 'fair'. I don't think anyone could argue that it was.

 

I don't know, HN. Perhaps it's because you cannot put yourself mentally in a place where you would be having an affair anyway, and I can certainly understand that, given that I felt the same way myself at one time.

 

But imagine that you were involved with someone in an affair situation (if possible). Now, imagine that you love that person you're with, and believe in him (again, I know its a massive stretch, and I totally understand if it is impossible!), or believe in what you have. Given that scenario, what on Earth could you imagine would be your motivation for betraying that person (which is what it would be), in order to 'do right by' a third person, who in all likelihood you don't know? Some kind of strange altruism which would have you betraying the one you're with for a third party?

 

I'm not saying any of this is nice, because it isn't. Affairs are horrible things in my opinion, and I'm not defending them one way or another. But looking at it dispassionately, logically, if possible: ask yourself, what would be the motivation there..? There is none. Because you are involved with, and love, that one person. Why go against him..?

 

Nasty, selfish, incomprehensible to many as affairs are, they have their own internal logic. And telling the W (while the affair is going on) flies right in the face of that.

 

That's not to say that it can't make you sick to the core, what is happening and that the W is at home, in the dark. I certainly felt plenty of that during the affair, and it was in part why I was led to break it off in the end, much as I could have continued with it if that hadn't bothered me at all. But little things to do with his W started to creep into our relationship, and I began to hate what he/we were doing. BUT that translated into breaking it off. Not telling her about it. Though as I say, I was tempted to do that at the end, but not really to help her. My allegiance was to him, and when telling her would have hurt him, I had no reason to tell. I was tempted to tell her for my own selfish reasons.

 

I am not trying to justify anything I did or claim I was right in any of this. I couldn't do that because I don't agree with what I did, and I can't support my actions. This is written just to explain, for the interests of those searching for answers.

[OWoman]

I guess as a woman I wonder why another woman would want to become involved in such a lie and then keep the lie from the one person who is in the dark.

 

To me it wasn't about the lie - to the extent I was even aware of their being a lie, since that all happened off-stage for me; it was about the sex.

 

I couldn't have cared less if they went home and turned into serial killers or werewolves or computer geeks or loving husbands (OK - rule out the computer geek ) - what they did in their own time was their business, not mine. Just like what (and who) I did in the time I wasn't with them was no business of theirs.

 

I suppose it's a bit like approaching the guy who cuts the grass for the Council to cut yours every second weekend, on his own time. You approach him, and if he says yes, you have a deal. You don't consider approaching the Council to ask their permission. Your assumption - correctly or otherwise - is that the guy would consider any conflict of interest / restraint of trade or other relevant policies and act in accordance with those. Your agreement is with him, and so long as he cuts your grass to your spec on your schedule, you're cool. If the Council has issues with him cutting your grass - well, that's between him and the Council.

[Owl]

I would agree with your example, Owoman, but here's the rub.

 

In a real marriage, one side or the other doesn't have the authority or right to unilaterally change the contract.

 

And the ODDS of that person being in a non-monogamous marriage are miniscule.

 

So you can pretty much be GARAUNTEED that what was going on was a conflict of interest...you just avoid any responsibility for that by saying that it was HIS job to make sure that it wasn't. Even when you know that its pretty much a spot on assured thing that he would do no such thing.

 

In other words...there was no way he was going to go home and make sure it was ok with his wife. You knew that, and you knew that the odds were extremely high that it would NOT be ok with his wife. You avoid responsibility for sleeping with a married man simply by pointing the finger at him and saying "its his fault for sleeping with me when he's married!!!".

[grogster]

HN you make this all sound so civilised and rational. I'm sure that if you were the BW of one of the MMs I'd been using as a sex toy, making that request in that kind of way, I'd have had no problem sitting down with you over a cup of coffee to talk.

 

Thing is - and obviously I can't speak for other OWs on this, merely from my own experience - when one is in the middle of an A, calmness and rationality are not really the primary descriptors. As the OW, I had no conception - and wanted none - of the MM outside of the times I summoned him to use as a sex toy. W, kids, job, whatever - was as relevant to me as what colour underwear Ronald Reagan wore on set. So the notion of a W who may have had a request like yours wasn't something that ever fitted into that kind of universe - any more than some teenage girl getting off on fantasies about some movie star would feel the need to phone up the movie star's W and confess.

 

It's highly possible that some of those BWs were as mature and constructive as you - these were all men claiming to be happily married, after all - though the brief glimpses I got of their Ms (phone calls witnessed, emails shown, etc) were not impressive. An absence of respect and way too much inequality of power no doubt made it easy for these MMs to decide to engage with me when approached, and being treated like disposable sex objects - which they were to me - no doubt addressed some imbalance elsewhere... but I wonder if those BWs actually had the self-assurance and confidence to ask, as you have, to hear a truth they would almost certainly not have liked. It's a question I'm almost certain never to get an answer to!

 

An Affair experienced and an Affair discussed are two entirely different animals. Unless one has been in a passionate, over-the-top, Id-drenched Affair, you have no idea how the Affair's sexual dynamic takes over one's life. You don't think about the spouse at home, or the kids, all you want is your lover--in every sexual way imaginable. Affair sex is to marital sex as a flute of perfectly chilled champagne is to a glass of warm water.

 

That's why discussion breaks down. The OM/OW often is in a semi-permanent state of erotic arousal, and, like an aroused animal, desires his/her lover more than anything and will risk anything to be with him/her.Affairs don't just "cloud" judgment; they annihilate judgment.

 

Can Affairs be defended? Not in my view. But they're a part of the human condition, and should be understood as much as condemned. Adultery's been around an awfully long time. And this site provides an ongoing chronicle of infidelity, which adds to the sum total of knowledge of this outlaw love.

[OWoman]

I would agree with your example, Owoman, but here's the rub.

 

In a real marriage, one side or the other doesn't have the authority or right to unilaterally change the contract.

 

And the ODDS of that person being in a non-monogamous marriage are miniscule.

 

So you can pretty much be GARAUNTEED that what was going on was a conflict of interest...you just avoid any responsibility for that by saying that it was HIS job to make sure that it wasn't. Even when you know that its pretty much a spot on assured thing that he would do no such thing.

 

In other words...there was no way he was going to go home and make sure it was ok with his wife. You knew that, and you knew that the odds were extremely high that it would NOT be ok with his wife. You avoid responsibility for sleeping with a married man simply by pointing the finger at him and saying "its his fault for sleeping with me when he's married!!!".

 

 

Owl, I don't know labour law elsewhere, but in my country, neither side has the authority or right to change the contract unilaterally. That would be an unfair labour practice, and would earn you a massive pay out .

 

Non-monogamous marriages are very common here - sometimes in a formalised way (eg Muslim men with more than one wife) and sometimes in a less formal way owing to the nature of traditional marriage (something which more than half of the population subscribe to - whether or not they formalise those unions through civil marriage ceremonies or not). Traditional marriages can be, and often are, polygamous. And people raised according to traditional customs and practices - we're talking up to 80% of our population, so this isn't "miniscule" - have pragmatic views on monogamy. Typically, a young MW will say, "if he has other GFs, I don't want to know", while older MWs will want to be assured of their place in the hierarchy of Ws and GFs to ensure that their children are the ones at the head of the queue for provision from pensions, death benefits, etc so typically DO want to know where they stand wrt other women (of the LTR kind, not the ONS or fleeting A kind). So here - any assumption is just that, an assumption.

 

DISCLAIMER - I realise that things are very different in the US, Western Europe and some other places too. But for much of the world, particularly third world societies, this is how it is. Sorry if we're not as "civilised" as you guys are, but our values and societal norms are different.

 

In my case though - I neither seek to embrace nor avoid responsibility for engaging sexually with MMs - same way I feel nothing about travelling on the Shabbat. I don't subscribe to that value system and so don't consider myself bound by it, and don't judge my behaviour according to its standards, but rather according to my own.

[OWoman]

Affair sex is to marital sex as a flute of perfectly chilled champagne is to a glass of warm water.

 

Brilliant description, grogster!

 

The OM/OW often is in a semi-permanent state of erotic arousal, and, like an aroused animal, desires his/her lover more than anything and will risk anything to be with him/her.

 

I wish it was only SEMI-permanent....

[Owl]

Sorry if we're not as "civilised" as you guys are, but our values and societal norms are different.

 

Note: I've mentioned I've travelled a good amount in my life. I've never, EVER met anyone that I didn't consider 'as civilised' as I am.

 

You live in a different culture...its got nothing to do with being civilised, or a level of sophistication. Its simply a culture that works off of a slightly different premise than mine. Neither is 'better'...they are simply different.

 

With that said, you need to bear in mind that the vast majority of posters here do not share YOUR cultural views. Just as you clearly don't feel it would be fair for us to make you accept your cultural perspective, its equally foolish to expect us to share yours.

 

I'd be willing to bet that most posters do not think about you being from/in a different cultural with such different views when they post to you...instead, they ASSUME that they're posting to someone who was raised to share THEIR cultural values but chooses not to.

 

See where the disconnect comes in?

 

This disconnect could explain a LOT about why I continually say that your situation is "different"...it IS...because the basis of it is founded from an entirely different culture than mine, and/or the majority of the posters on this forum.

 

And that is something to consider...while a lot of the world is different...the majority of THE POSTERS ON THIS FORUM are all from a similar culture as mine. While they may not be representative of the world at large, they are representative of the culture of this forum.

[grogster]

Brilliant description, grogster!

 

 

 

I wish it was only SEMI-permanent....

 

What I'm attempting to say is that an Affair is better experienced than discussed. Words cannot capture the lovers' sexual hunger, emotional power and high-wire intimacy. An Affair is a super-charged romance.

 

That's why infidelity threads are so painful to read: the OW/OM want to celebrate the relationship, and the BS's and their supporters want to condemn the relationship.

 

And the twain never meet.

[OWoman]

Note: I've mentioned I've travelled a good amount in my life. I've never, EVER met anyone that I didn't consider 'as civilised' as I am.

 

That wasn't directed at you, Owl. It was a general statement in anticipation of SOME posters who feel that everyone ought to share their values and that anyone who doesn't is prima facie wrong.

 

You live in a different culture...its got nothing to do with being civilised, or a level of sophistication. Its simply a culture that works off of a slightly different premise than mine. Neither is 'better'...they are simply different.

 

With that said, you need to bear in mind that the vast majority of posters here do not share YOUR cultural views. Just as you clearly don't feel it would be fair for us to make you accept your cultural perspective, its equally foolish to expect us to share yours.

 

I'd be willing to bet that most posters do not think about you being from/in a different cultural with such different views when they post to you...instead, they ASSUME that they're posting to someone who was raised to share THEIR cultural values but chooses not to.

 

Which is why, as I explained on that other thread, I constantly feel the need to draw attention to the fact that I am not American and don't share American values - and that American values are not universal.

[Owl]

They're not universal...but they probably apply to >90% of the posters on this forum.

 

THAT is something to keep in mind. You can't spend the majority of the time addressing the minority of the people.

[twice_shy]

And this differs from your attacking them how?

 

It differs because they are the ones hurting someone in real life....thats how.

 

Funny how people like you could care less who they hurt and expect a free pass to screw with anyone. Oh, but get some harsh words in a forum, and that just aint right is it? geez....get real.

[herenow]

It differs because they are the ones hurting someone in real life....thats how.

 

Funny how people like you could care less who they hurt and expect a free pass to screw with anyone. Oh, but get some harsh words in a forum, and that just aint right is it? geez....get real.

 

You know TS, you bring up an interesting point I never thought of. With all the talk on this board about being civil to each other and not "flaming" people because of a differing opinion, it really is amazing that having an affair with someone else's spouse isn't a problem.

 

You would think that if someone can be offended by something a stranger on an internet forum says, that they would certainly have the same consideration for people in real life. Mind boggling!

[twice_shy]

You would think that if someone can be offended by something a stranger on an internet forum says, that they would certainly have the same consideration for people in real life. Mind boggling!

 

You would think wouldn't you. But hey, this is the mind of a cheater and people that like to screw with other people's spouses.

[grogster]

That wasn't directed at you, Owl. It was a general statement in anticipation of SOME posters who feel that everyone ought to share their values and that anyone who doesn't is prima facie wrong.

 

 

 

Which is why, as I explained on that other thread, I constantly feel the need to draw attention to the fact that I am not American and don't share American values - and that American values are not universal.

 

"American values" exist, if at all, in public myth, not deed. In fact, there's less and less consenus among the American public as to what should be annointed an "American value." Watch what we do, not what we say. And that goes double for infidelity.

 

Today's New York Times had a front page story about how other countries--Canada, England, for example--prohibit and criminalize so-called "hate speech." While in the USA, even "hate speech" is protected from Governmental action by the First Amendment.

 

America no longer enjoys a "values" hegemony--if it ever did: Yet another consequence of that f@cking War.

[OWoman]

It differs because they are the ones hurting someone in real life....thats how.

 

Your words may be having the exact same effect on someone who IS hurting in real life - and whose hurting just got pushed over the edge by your complete lack of sensitivity, consideration and humane-ness.

 

Not that you care, because you'd stone them if you could. In real life. Hey. Whateva.

 

Funny how people like you could care less who they hurt and expect a free pass to screw with anyone. Oh, but get some harsh words in a forum, and that just aint right is it? geez....get real.

 

I could care less what you say to me. I hate to break it to you, but I lose no sleep at all over your opinions. Sorry...

 

But I do feel for those people who arrive here in trauma, in a crisis, and have you go off at them as if they're the antichrist. I think that kind of behaviour sucks and I will continue to object to it when it manifests - from you or anyone.

[noforgiveness]

You are so far off the mark I didn't even recognise this as a response to my post, until I saw I'd been quoted in it.

 

I was extensively psychometrically profiled as part of a leadership programme, and so I copied and pasted your comments and mailed them off to the consultant who did the profile, as I saw he was online. He graded it 2 out of 10 for accuracy, and 1 out of 10 for coherence - which he said was interesting given that you'd slated my "stream of consciousness" reply to Owl as "wishy washy" and "doubtful".

 

Anyway, I won't waste my time engaging with the content, since I have better things to do than provide opportunities for further insult flinging, but I'm glad to have afforded you and opportunity to practice your Psych 101 skills. I'm sorry you got a failing grade - better luck on your next attempt.

 

LOL sure you did. You told your profiler that you post on an ow board and this is the conclusion they had for you and thenhe/she graded it? Ummm ok yea umm lol.

 

When you were having that profile done did you tell the evaluator that you like to play with married men?

[Owl]

Feel free to move to a different country and change your allegiance anytime, Grogster.

 

That's the beauty of it all. If you don't like it, you're not forced to remain a citizen here.

 

I'm sorry you've been so flattened by the TV screen that you don't believe that Americans have values anymore. That is truly sad.

 

We must live in completely different worlds...because while I see people who don't have values, I see just as many who DO.

 

From my perspective, if you don't like the situation, you have three choices. You can attempt to change it, you can leave it, or you can complain about it.

 

I'm curious...do you blame this 'lack of American morals' for you choice to cheat? Was that what made it ok for you to do so? Or were you part of the choice to set aside your morals so that you COULD cheat?

 

You see...I see myself as PART of America. MY morals are PART of "America's morals". So what I do also reflects on my country...just as much as my country reflects back on me.

 

When I go somewhere outside the U.S. I'm both an example of America, and an ambassador of it. People see me as an American...and so my country reflects on me. They see my actions, my attitude, my morals...and my country is thereby judged by my actions...how its percieved is determined by how I behave. Its a reflection of me.

 

So...I DO believe that we have morals. I'm saddened that you don't feel the same.

[grogster]

Feel free to move to a different country and change your allegiance anytime, Grogster.

 

That's the beauty of it all. If you don't like it, you're not forced to remain a citizen here.

 

I'm sorry you've been so flattened by the TV screen that you don't believe that Americans have values anymore. That is truly sad.

 

We must live in completely different worlds...because while I see people who don't have values, I see just as many who DO.

 

From my perspective, if you don't like the situation, you have three choices. You can attempt to change it, you can leave it, or you can complain about it.

 

I'm curious...do you blame this 'lack of American morals' for you choice to cheat? Was that what made it ok for you to do so? Or were you part of the choice to set aside your morals so that you COULD cheat?

 

You see...I see myself as PART of America. MY morals are PART of "America's morals". So what I do also reflects on my country...just as much as my country reflects back on me.

 

When I go somewhere outside the U.S. I'm both an example of America, and an ambassador of it. People see me as an American...and so my country reflects on me. They see my actions, my attitude, my morals...and my country is thereby judged by my actions...how its percieved is determined by how I behave. Its a reflection of me.

 

So...I DO believe that we have morals. I'm saddened that you don't feel the same.

 

All part of the Culture Wars: abortion, porn, infidelity, evolution, assisted suicide, nonmarital sex, polyamory, Gay marriage.

 

Reasonable minds differ. Believing in one set of values, as opposed to another, does not make anyone less American. Conservative Republicans and "Christians" do not monopolize "values" or "morality."

 

It's a big tent.

[Owl]

All part of the Culture Wars: abortion, porn, infidelity, evolution, assisted suicide, nonmarital sex, polyamory, Gay marriage.

 

Reasonable minds differ. Believing in one set of values, as opposed to another, does not make anyone less American. Conservative Republicans and "Christians" do not monopolize "values" or "morality."

 

It's a big tent.

 

You're right. Its a HUGE tent, with people who have brought pieces of culture, values, ideals, etc... from all over the world with them into that tent.

 

The REAL trick is to figure out how to live by YOUR moral code without impinging on or interfering with someone ELSE's moral code.

 

I believe in monogamy. Having someone who doesn't believe in it pursue my wife interferes with my life.

 

I don't personally care for polyamory. However, as long as those who practice it don't choose to use it as a tool to interfere with my choices and life, I have no reason whatsoever to have issue with it.

 

That's part of MY moral code at least.

[herenow]

I'm not sure that morals have anything to do with where you live. I think it's more about who you are. Common courtesy is a human thing (or so I once believed). I don't think that being an American or not gives anyone the go ahead to "screw" others literally or figuratively.

[silktricks]

{snip}

I'm sorry you've been so flattened by the TV screen that you don't believe that Americans have values anymore. That is truly sad.

 

{snip}

I'm curious...do you blame this 'lack of American morals' for you choice to cheat? Was that what made it ok for you to do so? Or were you part of the choice to set aside your morals so that you COULD cheat?

{snip}

 

 

OWL - my heavens - this doesn't seem like you at all...

 

Grogster was speaking about the fact that American's do not have a universal set of "values". Which, of course, we do not. It's obvious from the Americans on this forum at the very least.

 

He said nothing about the presence or lack of American morals - and just like other countries, some have morals, some do not, and some refer to the morals of a person they disagree with as non-existent....

 

We aren't all alike and thank heavens (and our founding fathers) for that.

[Lookingforward]

Feel free to move to a different country and change your allegiance anytime, Grogster.

 

That's the beauty of it all. If you don't like it, you're not forced to remain a citizen here.

 

I'm sorry you've been so flattened by the TV screen that you don't believe that Americans have values anymore. That is truly sad.

 

We must live in completely different worlds...because while I see people who don't have values, I see just as many who DO.

 

From my perspective, if you don't like the situation, you have three choices. You can attempt to change it, you can leave it, or you can complain about it.

 

I'm curious...do you blame this 'lack of American morals' for you choice to cheat? Was that what made it ok for you to do so? Or were you part of the choice to set aside your morals so that you COULD cheat?

 

You see...I see myself as PART of America. MY morals are PART of "America's morals". So what I do also reflects on my country...just as much as my country reflects back on me.

 

When I go somewhere outside the U.S. I'm both an example of America, and an ambassador of it. People see me as an American...and so my country reflects on me. They see my actions, my attitude, my morals...and my country is thereby judged by my actions...how its percieved is determined by how I behave. Its a reflection of me.

 

So...I DO believe that we have morals. I'm saddened that you don't feel the same.

 

 

wow, didn't realise you were in the kneejerk "love it or leave it" brigade, owl

 

<muses> must be something in the water on LS lately