Sending the wrong signals?

[QWERTY]

Hi,

 

My S/O can act in a way that I considered mildly flirty (being extra charming, laughing at things that aren't really funny, touching the person's arm). She never says anything inappropriate and I'm pretty certain she doesn't mean to flirt, but it still bothers me. In the past men seem to have responded to her behaviour positively (being extra friendly back, offering to do nice things for her), but only once has her behaviour led to someone acting in a way that I felt (and she felt) "crossed the line."

 

It gets a little more complicated because she doesn't seem very aware of her behaviour. If I touch someone's arm when I'm talking to them it's a conscious decision, and I remember doing it. When she does it and I mention it to her, she says she doesn't remember doing it at all.

 

I'm recognizing (and working to change) my feelings of insecurity and jealousy that come from her relatively innocent behaviour because it has led to me being controlling and is damaging our relationship.

 

But there are two issues that I'm having trouble reconciling:

 

1) I feel (although I think it's probably irrationale) that the signals she sends by acting this way with other men are somehow disrespectful to me, and show a failure on her part to take responsibility for herself. For example, she has a nice chest and sometimes wears a top that shows of just a little bit of cleavage, but then she gets mad when some guy stares at her breasts. She also got very mad at the guy who made inappropriate comments to her after she was "flirty" with him. I'm having trouble fighting the feeling that if she really doesn't want unwanted attention, she should take more responsibility for the signals she sends out to other men -- or at least not complain to me when it happens.

 

2) I can't help but wonder what the guys who have responded to her "flirty" behaviour are thinking about me. I try and be friendly and outgoing with them, but they usually don't have much to say to me but go out of their way to talk to her. That makes me feel disrespected to -- like "oh don't mind me, please continue flirting with my S/O." But again, I think this may be an irrationale feeling too.

 

So I guess what I'm trying to work through is:

 

1) Is it wrong for me to expect my S/O to take responsibility for the signals she sends out? Is that my insecurity, or a legitimate feeling?

 

2) If it is at all legitimate, what should I do about it? I don't think another conversation about it would go over well at all, so my only ideas are: a) act that way with another woman in front of her (which I've never done) so she can see what I'm seeing, or b) ignore it/get over it/accept it, even if it results in more unwanted attention from men?

 

So what do people think? Again, please remember that I'm trying to work through my jealousy/insecurity issues, so I'm just looking for some clear-headed advice.

 

Thanks.

[Bryanp]

I would agree with you that it sounds disrespectful to you. I wonder how she would be feeling if you exhibited the same type of behavior toward other women in front of her?

My guess is that she would not like it at all. What type of behavior did she exhibit when she crossed the line in the past that you mentioned? This all sounds like a potential red flag to me.

[QWERTY]

It wasn't her behaviour that crossed the line -- it was the guy's, who looked her up and down in a leering way (she described it as completely creepy) and then commented that she needed a man in her life. He was an electrician and she was alone in the apartment with him at the time, and then we both had to see him around the building for the next month, and she said he kept staring at her when she walked by.

 

But in that case I don't think she was all that flirty/friendly with him -- but she was friendly enough to make him think it was okay to treat her like that.

 

That's why I'm trying to get over my jealousy and insecurity -- in that case, like the other cases, I don't think she technically did anything wrong and I'm pretty certain she doesn't want to cheat on me, so I can't keep treating her like she did/does. When thinking clearly I realize her behaviour is relatively harmless -- it just may send a signal out that she doesn't want to send.

 

She says she acts that way because she has an unhealthy need to have people like her. She's going to therapy, and while her behaviour has changed (I don't think she would act the same way if another electrician was in our apartment), I still see signs every now and then that those behaviours are still there and aren't under her control.

 

So I've accepted that she isn't really meaning to flirt, but what I'm struggling with is:

 

a) the fact that her behaviour, even though she isn't interested in the guy, may suggest to him that she is,

b) that she doesn't really seem aware of her behaviour sometimes, and the way other people might interpret it, and

c) that she seems to not take responsibility for the way other people respond to her behaviour

 

I think a big part of the problem is that I am very aware of my behaviour. A while back a woman at work started flirting with me. I had thought the woman was safe to be friendly (not flirty, just friendly) with because she was recently married, but I was wrong. I told my S/O about it (both when I had suspicions that the woman was interested, and when she made it more clear), completely changed the way I engaged with the woman, and accepted that I couldn't assume that it was okay to be friendly with a woman just because she was married. I recognized the mistakes I made that gave this woman the impression that she could flirt with me, and I took responsibility for that and for changing my behaviour.

 

I guess, because I do that, I expect the same from my SO, which isn't necessarily fair on my part, but this is what I'm struggling with. I feel like "I'm doing this for you... why aren't you doing it for me?" And even though she has changed her behaviour around men, there are still signs that the behaviour is still there.

 

So how do you come to terms with an S/O who can be unaware of and/or doesn't take responsibility for the signals they send out to the opposite sex (when you go out of your way to do that out of respect for her)? I know that if I acted the same way she did with another woman it would bother her, and to me even though her behaviour is relatively innocent it feels disrespectful to me and like we have a double standard in our relationship. Do I just need to suck it up and deal with it because it's my issue and not her's, or is there something I should say or do?

[angie2443]

Hi,

It gets a little more complicated because she doesn't seem very aware of her behaviour. If I touch someone's arm when I'm talking to them it's a conscious decision, and I remember doing it. When she does it and I mention it to her, she says she doesn't remember doing it at all.

Thanks.

 

She is aware of her behavior. She knows what she's doing. She just doesn't want to change it. If she acknowledged what she was doing, she might feel she had to change it, so she fools you (and maybe herself) into thinking she's now aware of her actions.

 

As far as showing the cleavage, she does it to get looked at and she knows this. I don't think this is wrong in itself. I like to show a little at times to get some attention. Most of us enjoy that validation from time to time from the opposite sex even if we are in a commited relationship. As long as she's not seeking it the majority of times, it shouldn't be an issue. What I find a little deceptive here, is that you say she shows the cleavage and then doesn't understand why she's getting looked at. Come on! She shows the cleavage because she knows she'll get looked at.

 

I wish I could help you more. The problem is, if she doesn't acknowledge her behavior, then I don't see how you two can resolve this issue.

 

Good luck:)

[angie2443]

She says she acts that way because she has an unhealthy need to have people like her. She's going to therapy, and while her behaviour has changed (I don't think she would act the same way if another electrician was in our apartment), I still see signs every now and then that those behaviours are still there and aren't under her control.

 

I'm sorry, I just skimmed over this second post so I missed and/or misunderstood a couple of things.

 

I think the part I quoted here could very well be what's going on with her. Many women judge their worth on how well they're liked by others, especially men. Her flirting is a way to be validated and she knows this. She sounds like she has some self esteem issues. With a healthy self esteem, women/men enjoy bieng liked, enjoy bieng looked at, but don't constantly seek to be liked or looked at. They don't constantly need others to tell them they are attractive and likeable. The therapy sounds lke it might be a good first step.

[I am who I am]

Sounds like a classic Attention Whore. Nothing you do will change this. She will not change this. Accept it or don't. Those are your options.

[non4321]

She is aware of her behavior. She knows what she's doing. She just doesn't want to change it. If she acknowledged what she was doing, she might feel she had to change it, so she fools you (and maybe herself) into thinking she's now aware of her actions.

 

As far as showing the cleavage, she does it to get looked at and she knows this. I don't think this is wrong in itself. I like to show a little at times to get some attention. Most of us enjoy that validation from time to time from the opposite sex even if we are in a commited relationship. As long as she's not seeking it the majority of times, it shouldn't be an issue. What I find a little deceptive here, is that you say she shows the cleavage and then doesn't understand why she's getting looked at. Come on! She shows the cleavage because she knows she'll get looked at.

 

I wish I could help you more. The problem is, if she doesn't acknowledge her behavior, then I don't see how you two can resolve this issue.

 

Good luck:)

 

I'd like to offer an alternative angle to this person's comment. There are many girls(myself included) that are able to wear certain clothes because they just like them. When I buy or wear a shirt that shows cleavage, it's not because I need attention. It's because I think the shirt is cute. A side thought may sometimes be, "Ooh, my tits are gonna look great in this," but I wouldn't wear some ugly shirt just to show em off.

 

I'm usually pretty modest, and can easily get embarrassed when someone's checkin em out, but I realize if I'm gonna wear a low-cut top, guys are gonna look because, well, that's just what they do.

 

In your SO's case, maybe she does do it on purpose, since she admits she feels the need for guys to like her. But she completely contradicts herself when she gets mad when guys look. In that aspect, seems she needs a reality check: if your boobs are showing, guys will look.

 

Also, to the OP, you're having a very similar problem to my post about my flirty BF. We need to give eachother a hug.

[shanny]

I agree that she knows exactly what she is doing. She very obviously does it for attention. I think she "complains" about it for more attention from you or to make you jealous. Maybe she wants to feel like you are there to protect her. So I believe she does it for attention from other men and then additional attention from you.

 

If I wear a low cut shirt, I do not get mad at men for looking. Girls wear low cut shirts because they want people to look at their boobs. Period. It doesn't have to be a bad thing... it's natural to want to be sexy. But to complain about it? That's just BEGGING for attention. She knows exactly what she is doing.

 

If you are willing to play her attention game then go for it, but I suppose it will get annoying after awhile.

[Untouchable_Fire]

So how do you come to terms with an S/O who can be unaware of and/or doesn't take responsibility for the signals they send out to the opposite sex (when you go out of your way to do that out of respect for her)? I know that if I acted the same way she did with another woman it would bother her, and to me even though her behaviour is relatively innocent it feels disrespectful to me and like we have a double standard in our relationship. Do I just need to suck it up and deal with it because it's my issue and not her's, or is there something I should say or do?

 

 

I highly suggest everyone go back and read QWERTY's other posts as they provide great insight into his GF's past. Which to be honest is kind of sketch.

 

Now QWERTY, you ARE being disrespected, and it isn't a jealously/control issue on your end! You are trying to be sensitive and understanding to the point of absolute stupidity!

 

Look, when she flirts with another guy, she is giving him signals of sexual interest. It doesn't matter if SHE thinks that or not... the OTHER GUYS obviously do. Which means she is leading them on... and DISSING YOU!

 

So, what do you do about it? Stand up for yourself! Tell her that your not saying she can't talk to guys... that your not controlling or jealous. Your just tired of feeling 2nd place, and that if she wants to continue the relationship, she needs to show that she is working on this.

 

Are you so desperate that you have to accept this behavior from her? Cause I think that is the message your unintentionally sending her. That you can't do any better than her, no other decent woman would want you. Is that how things are?

[QWERTY]

Thanks everyone. I appreciate your advice.

 

But when I read the replies, my first thought was "she's not that bad." Now Untouchable Fire referenced my other posts about her past, which I agree is a bit sketchy. But she has worked hard to make changes and she has (thanks to my complaining and therapy) changed the way she acts with men to a large degree.

 

When I read your posts, it sounded like you were describing someone who is very flirty -- who is acting in a way that shows she's trying to get men to like her. But with my S/O it's more subtle then that -- she doesn't wear low-cut tops -- just low enough to show off a little cleavage. And I often see her pulling it up when she looks in the mirror, so her cleavage doesn't show, but then gravity brings it back down again.

 

She has acted in a way that I'd consider mildly flirty, but I've known very flirty women and she's not that. And the men she's acted that way with are generally losers, and the negative reaction she has towards them (she generally ends up thinking they're *******s, and when I've suggested that they may be flirting with her she genuinely seems disgusted).

 

So I guess my point is... is it not possible that her behaviour comes more from just wanting people to like her, and being ignorant of the affect her behaviour may have with others? My gut instinct is that she's not out there looking for sexual attention -- she just wants to be liked, finds that easier with men (who like her for the wrong reasons maybe, but she still gets that need of being liked met), and because that need to be liked is so strong she doesn't stop to think how the other person might be interpreting her behaviour.

 

I've known several women like that before -- who are too friendly with guys, think that the guys are their friends, and then when the guy makes a move the woman feels hurt and angry and betrayed and stops being "friends" with the person. Yes, it does show low self-esteem, but I do question if it is really flirting or just being ignorant of how others are responding to you.

 

Having said all that, her behaviour with men has changed a lot, although much of that is because she's basically cut men out of her life altogether. However, every now and then I see little signs that the impulse is still there, and that's what I'm trying to work through. I think she thinks as long as she avoids men then no problem, but I know that sooner or later someone will come along (e.g., a coworker, a female friend's boyfriend) and she won't have a choice but to interact with them.

 

So if anyone agrees with my theory that she's not doing it on purpose but is just being naive because her need to be liked is strong, how would you handle it? How do you deal with someone who is unaware of the impact of their behaviour, and who because of their issues can't seem to control it? That's why I suggested I should act that way with another woman in front of her -- I think if she saw what she looked like, it would help her to understand it a lot better. It's either that or wait until she's in a situation where she has to interact with a man, and then hope that he does make a pass att her so she'll get a better understanding of how her behaviour impacts others.

 

Sorry, I'm rambling. Anyway, any more thoughts are appreciated.

[angie2443]

So I guess my point is... is it not possible that her behaviour comes more from just wanting people to like her, and being ignorant of the affect her behaviour may have with others? My gut instinct is that she's not out there looking for sexual attention -- she just wants to be liked, finds that easier with men (who like her for the wrong reasons maybe, but she still gets that need of being liked met), and because that need to be liked is so strong she doesn't stop to think how the other person might be interpreting her behaviour.

 

I've known several women like that before -- who are too friendly with guys, think that the guys are their friends, and then when the guy makes a move the woman feels hurt and angry and betrayed and stops being "friends" with the person. Yes, it does show low self-esteem, but I do question if it is really flirting or just being ignorant of how others are sponding to you.

 

 

So if anyone agrees with my theory that she's not doing it on purpose but is just being naive because her need to be liked is strong, how would you handle it? How do you deal with someone who is unaware of the impact of their behaviour, and who because of their issues can't seem to control it? That's why I suggested I should act that way with another woman in front of her -- I think if she saw what she looked like, it would help her to understand it a lot better. It's either that or wait until she's in a situation where she has to interact with a man, and then hope that he does make a pass att her so she'll get a better understanding of how her behaviour impacts others.

 

Sorry, I'm rambling. Anyway, any more thoughts are appreciated.

 

I mean this in no offense, but you sound like your in denial. Either that, or you've exatureated her behavior in previous post.

 

I don't think your girlfriend is bad. I don't think that your girfriend wants sex with other men or anything like that. However, she knows what she's doing and knows that flirting will get attention from men. This is why she does it. This is why we all do it.

[theobserver]

Your looking for an answer that wants to support your opinion of your girlfriend and why she does these things. You compared her to other women you've seen that flirt but the thing is your going to be more bias for your girlfriend then these other women because you are trying to rationalise why she acts this way and you believe she is clueless while other flirtacious women have a clear agenda.

 

The fact is your girlfriend does have a clear agenda and it needs to stop. It does seem she's taking the chance to stop. There have been replies from some of the women here clearly telling you how they see it from personal experience plus the men who can clearly see what's up.

 

The problem with a woman who just wants to be "liked" by men there comes a time when the impulse could get too strong that it turns into sex with males for approval. She has a problem and she might not be able to discuss how she feels openly with you for fear of what you'll think so perhaps a discussion with a professional could benefit her?

 

Another possibility is she could be dying for you to man up. The situation with the electricion I hope you set him straight and had talks that she is taken etc. Alot of women hate if their boyfriend forgives every little manner to keep the piece sometimes you have to set boundaries if she wont. Sometimes you have to be a bastard if she can't be a bitch.

 

Good Luck.

[QWERTY]

In a moment of serendipity, I noticed an article on the MSN news page entitled "What constitutes cheating?"

 

In it, it said:

 

Flirting is such a natural act between men and women. Most confident individuals, in a secure and open relationship don't mind their man/woman joking around or engaging in a little innocent flirting. Admit it, you probably do it all the time. But if the conversations are sexual and the flirting is with the intent of eventually "getting some," then you have definitely crossed the line.

 

 

That sums up what I'm struggling with pretty well. I hear what everyone is saying, but my S/O falls into the "joking around or engaging in a little innocent flirting" category (although I don't do it myself). What she doesn't do is cross the line by talking sexual or flirting with the intent of "getting some."

 

Further, she has cut that behaviour back quite a bit, by cutting most men out of her life. The catch is, as mentioned, she's not doing in from a secure, healthy place, but from a need to be liked. But isn't that really why everyone flirts -- to feel like someone likes you?

 

So does anyone agree with the above statement from MSN? She is in therapy but because she's cut most men out of her life I don't think she sees her tendancy to flirt as an issue, and if I try and convince her that it is still an issue and she needs to work on it it's going to be a bad scene. (FYI: I recently told her I needed her to work on some of this stuff in therapy, and her therapist said I was being controlling and insecure and that my S/O wasn't doing anything wrong, which led to a pretty big fight and me starting this thread).

 

Based on your responses and my S/O's unwillingness to change further, it's kind of sounding like I either need to accept this behaviour (as long as she doesn't cross the line) or break up. And given what it said on the MSN page, I think it would be a real shame for me to break up over something that most people consider to be okay.

 

So does anyone agree with what it said on MSN?

[Untouchable_Fire]

Further, she has cut that behaviour back quite a bit, by cutting most men out of her life. The catch is, as mentioned, she's not doing in from a secure, healthy place, but from a need to be liked. But isn't that really why everyone flirts -- to feel like someone likes you?

 

It's because she is coming from such a bad place that hearing about her just makes me nervous.

 

She is the type of woman you can trust... but not too far. The moment she gets in a bad situation she totally lacks the strength of character to do the right thing.

 

Flirting is Ok in general. However, when the men/women your flirting with are consistently taking it in a "I'm available" way... there is a big problem. It doesn't have to be sexual to cross the line.

 

I also am not sure I like the idea of her just cutting men out of her life. That seems like avoiding the issue rather than working on it. Also, you need to make sure your not coming across as a controlling jerk.

[angie2443]

Flirting is such a natural act between men and women. Most confident individuals, in a secure and open relationship don't mind their man/woman joking around or engaging in a little innocent flirting. Admit it, you probably do it all the time. But if the conversations are sexual and the flirting is with the intent of eventually "getting some," then you have definitely crossed the line.?

 

I would agree with this and also add that if flirting is constant or done often with the same person, then it will probably be a problem. Otherwise, light flirting once in a while is fine. I also tend to think it's natural for young, unsettled people to flirt a lot because they still haven't selected a long term partner and they're testing the waters.

[GreenEyes13]

My situation is similar - my fiance is a flirt and loves attention from women. But he has a neat trick - he basically confines it to his (single) women friends so that his excuse is that they are "just friends," which supposedly makes it okay. He feels he is not being disrespectful, but is too touchy-feely for my liking. Naturally women respond to his charm, charisma and attentiveness, making it uncomfortable for me on their part, as well as his. Your S/O is aware of her actions; I can flirt with the best of them, so I know. And yes, I do believe there is harmless, innocent flirting, which does not mean anything. However, there's the other type of flirting that is testing the waters and looking for a response.

 

Is she looking for something? Either way, if you've discussed it, she should STOP. If it makes you uncomfortable, she shouldn't do it. As they say, a leopard doesn't change its spots. Same reason I bet my fiance is the way he is, too. I struggle with it every day, so I know the feeling!

 

Good luck!