mistresswchildren Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 May I take a stab at this one? Did he tell you she cheated? Did you see her cheat? Because he could have lied to justify his A and she could have lied to hurt him. It could very well be true that they both cheated and in that case I have no sympathy for either of them. They both sank into the lower levels of decency and respect. They got what they both wanted, to demean and hurt the other. Sad really, because life doesn't have to be that way. SHE told me that SHE cheated. You have to understand that sadly, I cannot remove myself from this situation in the least because of my two children. I have tried to remain without contact with either of these people. I am trying to rise above it, but for some reason his W is now contacting me. I am sure that she is trying to figure out if we are still speaking (which we aren't), but either way you slice it, it is no picnic. Did I make my bed? Absolutely! However, I feel that at this point we should all just leave it as it lies. It is done, why not move on with life? Heal the wounds that were left, and move on. Dwelling in all of this is quite unhealthy in my mind. Will I always feel remorse for what happened? Yes, but that does not mean that I have to live every day for the rest of my life as an OW. I am not Hester Prynn. I will not be marked with a scarlet letter everyday. I will think about it. I will feel bad for it, but I will not let it affect the rest of my life (except for the fact that I will never again find myself involved with a MM). Link to post Share on other sites
bentnotbroken Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 Whoa, I only answered your question. I didn't even think of you in answering it, other than whether or not you 100% knew that she had or that she lied to get even. That's all that's it, nothing more. I stated my opinion in your case months ago, why would I hound you? Ease up, I am not your judge. And I don't believe anyone has to live in the past. We can all overcome whatever we see fit to overcome and move beyond. Link to post Share on other sites
Love4Eternity Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 [/b] If you have moved on, then why are you here complaining about him? Was a bs, yes. Nobody is perfect. But people like you just seem to think that there is nothing wrong with what you did. This quote from you says it all: "Actually im human and I have a free pass to do what ever the hell i want as long as its not illegal, I pay my taxes and I take care of my family" So as long as its not illegal, its a-ok to do whatever you want. its a-ok to sh#t on your husband, cheat, and do whatever you want eh? Like I said, that statement says it all. I have moved on to a better life....I divorced her. Oh please, don't even try to pretend you are religious. Apparantly not, otherwise you wouldn't have the attitude that you'll do anything you damn well like, including cheating if it so strikes you again. But hell, I digress there, you're husband is willing to be a cuckold, so it doesn't really matter does it. So you do have a free pass to cheat again....enjoy. Nope, because you still have the cheater's attitude, as posted above. I wasnt complaining about him you read to much into my posts and come up with your own conclusion as to what I am trying to say... I NEVER EVER and I REPEAT NEVER said it wasnt wrong again you seem to MISREAD what I am saying and tend to put your own thoughts into it, again reading more into it then what I said...This seems to be a continued problem with you... HMMM GOSH your good at this arnt you, WHERE IN THE HELL DID I SAY ITS OK TO CHEAT ON MY HUSBAND? where did i say I was going to cheat on him again? Please point out in any of my post where I said this??? I said I can do what I want when I want as long as its not illegal I DID NOT say I was going to cheat on him again!!!!!!!!!! Just because I can do what I want doesnt mean I will do what I want get that through your head!! And I am not a religious person but I beleive in God and I beleive my God has forgiven me just as my husband has so what I think you need to do is deal with YOUR issues and stop blaming me and everyone else who has made poor choices or mistakes in life for your misforutune.. I think you did your wife a favor not the other way around! You sound like a very bitter person with alot of anger and you need to address your anger with the appropriate person not people who have NOTHING to do with your situation. Your wife cheated on you Not me, and I am sure no I am certain she had reasons too, although I am also certain your not going to take any blame because again your just mr perfect arnt you! Get over yourself and move on!! I am not wasting anymore of my valuable time with you, either you learn to read and understand what I am saying or just butt out of my posts and replies! Is this not a forum for om/ow - I came here for a reason because i can relate to others in here, why are you here? Link to post Share on other sites
Love4Eternity Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 TS - has it occurred to you that the problem is how you tend to shove your opinions down everyone else's throats? Her point was that YOU don't have the right to tell her (or anyone else, for that matter) what she can and cannnot do. Everyone knows you're still angry about what happened in your life. But could you please just step back and take a couple of breaths? Everyone knows you don't approve of cheaters. Nor do you approve of forgiving a cheater. But since you so obviously don't approve of practically everyone on this forum, nor do you couch your opinions so that they can have any positive effect, why do you come? THank you!! I think he is just reading to much into what i am writing and making his own conclusion based on his feelings, i understand the anger he has but dont get why he feels the need to come here and vent his anger...we didnt cheat on him, his wife did... Link to post Share on other sites
Love4Eternity Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 Nobody does have that right. Everyone puts an opinion out there. Or do some people have supernatural mental mind powers and what is written is what happens? And I know nobody can tell her what to do. As she said, as long as it isn't illegal...no matter who she hurts, she will do what she damn well pleases. Nope. Sure, it pisses me off that there are people out there who are selfish and could care less who they hurt as long as they get "theirs". I am free from that. Still doesn't mean I don't despise that in other people. HMM I NEVER said this "no matter who she hurts" you said it and just fibed your ass off to make what i said sound worse then what it was intended to mean, for the record, I would never do anything to hurt anyone intentionally YOU READ WRONG!! You need to understand that NOT everyone who cheats, lies, betrays the one they love sets out to HURT the one they love but while in pain some may make the wrong choice in order to comfort themselves as they are NOT getting that comfort from the person that they love or are suppose to get it from...i bet you will read this, rewrite it to your specifications and turn it around to make it sound worse then whats intended hmm i can almost guarantee this... You are NOT free untill you let go of your anger!!! And furthermore, I could care less what you think of me, now that is meant as it sounds...what matters is what my family, my friends and most of all my husband thinks of me!! I would seriously recommend counseling because your anger towards me and any others on here, is simply not going to help you in any way shape or form... Link to post Share on other sites
OWoman Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 :sick:This alone says so much about you. You actually think most people only feel mild aversion disapproval or distaste for someone like Ted Bundy? Frankly, I have no idea or interest who Ted Bundy is - I googled "serial killer" and the name came up. It's not a subject that interests me remotely so I don't invest any emotions in it either way. Emotional investment signifies attachment. That is ABC stuff, which hardly bears repeating. If something means nothing to you, you have no attachment and invest no emotions. I've never watched those Hollywood movies so the name Freddy Krueger doesn't bring me out in goosebumps either. If that makes you you're free to do so (just face the other way please when you do.) Wow I guess I am what you consider on the flakey side of mental health you said it, not me.... because I think I would vomit if I was in the presense of Ted Bundy. your choice. I choose whose company I spend time in with a little more discretion than you do, apparently. I've never hung with serial killers and don't intend to. But feel free, if it works for you. Maybe you need to ask yourself why you are so detached from the feelings of others and have so little empathy for strangers that you are not sickened by his behavior and think people should only find him distasteful. It's quite a leap from saying someone should not get emotionally invested in newspaper headline stuff to saying one is "detached from the feelings of others" but I'm not your logic professor so I'm going to spare myself the effort of bringing you up to speed on that one. Sign up for the course if you need it explained. Link to post Share on other sites
OWoman Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 HMM I NEVER said this " Love - you're wasting your time. Some people CAN'T hear. They're just not ready. One can only hope that he does sometime get the help he needs so that he can let go and move on, and ultimately find happiness. Link to post Share on other sites
Nevermind Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 Just a sidenote: bringing somebody like Ted Bundy up and then saying "oh well, I don't care, I don't know" is weak, and a tad inappriate for the discussion. Saying that you do not know him or about him, but claiming to know which reaction to him/ his crimes is acceptable and healthy is ignorant and a tad arrogant. No offense OW, but you usually have better arguments, and a better style of discourse. Just sayin' since you brought the "take a class if you don't get it" up in the first place. Link to post Share on other sites
pelicanpreacher Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 That may not be the relevant question. The question may be who wants to be happy, until the relationship falls apart. Sometimes happiness however ignorant is preferable to the searing pain of disclosure. But purposely living under the sword of "Damocles", no matter how comfortable, can never be fullfilling because the constant reminder of the danger looming overhead, no matter how absent, prevents one from fully relaxing and enjoying life. I'd consider it a forced happiness to attempt to live in blissfull ignorance when I know or at least suspect, somewhere in the back of my mind, that she's cheating on me. Link to post Share on other sites
OpenBook Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 But purposely living under the sword of "Damocles", no matter how comfortable, can never be fullfilling because the constant reminder of the danger looming overhead, no matter how absent, prevents one from fully relaxing and enjoying life. I'd consider it a forced happiness to attempt to live in blissfull ignorance when I know or at least suspect, somewhere in the back of my mind, that she's cheating on me. And this is EXACTLY the reason why I don't understand how a BS could stay with their S after an A has been discovered. Why anyone would deliberately choose that kind of life is beyond my comprehension. I'm not going to condemn that decision, however, as I'm incapable of judging it due to my complete lack of understanding it! Maybe LSD is right... if the A was meaningless and a momentary stumble on the WS's path of righteousness:rolleyes:, maybe it would be better if the BS never found out. The A would be irrelevant to the health and wellbeing of the M. I have the impression that this is how most European's think of it. They're more "go-with-the-flow" than Americans are... a little more willing to acknowledge that M people are (gasp!!) fallible human beings, just like the rest of us. Am I wrong? Link to post Share on other sites
pelicanpreacher Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 And this is EXACTLY the reason why I don't understand how a BS could stay with their S after an A has been discovered. Why anyone would deliberately choose that kind of life is beyond my comprehension. I'm not going to condemn that decision, however, as I'm incapable of judging it due to my complete lack of understanding it! Maybe LSD is right... if the A was meaningless and a momentary stumble on the WS's path of righteousness:rolleyes:, maybe it would be better if the BS never found out. The A would be irrelevant to the health and wellbeing of the M. I have the impression that this is how most European's think of it. They're more "go-with-the-flow" than Americans are... a little more willing to acknowledge that M people are (gasp!!) fallible human beings, just like the rest of us. Am I wrong? Acutally I, as an American, am pretty much the same way you've described the attitude Europeans towards relationships! I've been wronged in the past and have always striven to forgive the offending party because I know I've not lived a perfect life and therefore, leave the stones to lay on the ground. Although I try to be consistent in my efforts to forgive I still have my limits on how much abuse I'll take and that's when a decision has to be made in regards to whether I'll continue or end the relationship. Others may show themselves to be more rigid but I'm just not the one to hold grudges. Link to post Share on other sites
twice_shy Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 And I am not a religious person but I beleive in God and I beleive my God has forgiven me just as my husband has so what I think you need to do is deal with YOUR issues and stop blaming me and everyone else who has made poor choices or mistakes in life for your misforutune.. Not blaming you or anyone else at all. Still doesn't mean I can't despise despicable behavior when I see it. I think you did your wife a favor not the other way around! LOL...nice try pumpkin. Yup, she is living it up. Her new boyfriend just got sent up the river for drugs, drinking and driving. What a favor I did. You sound like a very bitter person with alot of anger and you need to address your anger with the appropriate person not people who have NOTHING to do with your situation. Despising what you did has nothing to do with my situation. I despised cheaters way before I found out I had one. Your wife cheated on you and my kids Not me, and I am sure no I am certain she had reasons too Yup, she was a selfish tramp. although I am also certain your not going to take any blame because again your just mr perfect arnt you!j I blame myself for being a fool. For staying home and watching our children while she went out and partied because I thought I was doing a good thing staying at home so she could get out with friends. yes, I blame myself for that. Get over yourself and move on!! I am not wasting anymore of my valuable time with you, either you learn to read and understand what I am saying or just butt out of my posts and replies! Your words are your words and they show that you are selfish. You said you'd do what you damn well please as long as it isn't illegal. don't even try to tell me you weren't talking about cheating. Is this not a forum for om/ow - I came here for a reason because i can relate to others in here, why are you here? Because I came here looking for talks on my situation. Well, my situation is over, I divorced her. but then I found that there are alot of worthless people who betray others and try to justify it and make excuses...like you do, and like you tried to do with my x-tramp. Nice try. Link to post Share on other sites
OWoman Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 No offense OW, but you usually have better arguments, and a better style of discourse. Just sayin' since you brought the "take a class if you don't get it" up in the first place. Yeah that was far from coherent, and it's too late to edit it into what I MEANT to say... My brain is scrambled from marking too much idiocy! Link to post Share on other sites
twice_shy Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 HMM I NEVER said this "no matter who she hurts" you said it and just fibed your ass off to make what i said sound worse Nope, didn't "bib my ass off". The "no matter who she hurts" was all my own. That comment you made that you'll do whatever you like implies cheating too. Because afterall, it isn't illegal and that was what we were talking about....cheating. then what it was intended to mean, for the record, I would never do anything to hurt anyone intentionally YOU READ WRONG!! You need to understand that NOT everyone who cheats, lies, betrays the one they love sets out to HURT the one they love but while in pain some may make the wrong choice in order to comfort themselves as they are NOT getting that comfort from the person that they love or are suppose to get it from Ok ok...you are validated and justified in what you did!! Geez! Carry on! You are NOT free untill you let go of your anger!!! I never did have a shield up. I never got angry(and you are mistaking anger for plain old disgust at cheating). But look where that got me. Happens to alot of people. They play the fool and get taken advantage of. And furthermore, I could care less what you think of me Gee, wouldn't have guessed that with all the underlines and bolded text now that is meant as it sounds...what matters is what my family, my friends and most of all my husband thinks of me!! Well there is a discussion in itself...what your husband thinks of you. He is willing to ignore if you cheat again, like you said. Why? Just to keep from having to go through divorce? To keep the family at home? Trust me, I went through all those emotions too and wanted to stay for the wrong reasons. Difference is, I am not willing to settle for a cheater for any reason. Your husband is and is willing, for god knows why, to settle for you cheating again if you decided to. I would seriously recommend counseling because your anger towards me and any others on here, is simply not going to help you in any way shape or form... I'd suggest counseling for your husband and figure out why he would be willing to ignore your cheating and find out why he is willing to settle for that. Link to post Share on other sites
twice_shy Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 Love - you're wasting your time. Some people CAN'T hear. They're just not ready. One can only hope that he does sometime get the help he needs so that he can let go and move on, and ultimately find happiness. This coming from someone who has admitted you specifically went after married men. Link to post Share on other sites
OWoman Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 Acutally I, as an American, am pretty much the same way you've described the attitude Europeans towards relationships! I've been wronged in the past and have always striven to forgive the offending party because I know I've not lived a perfect life and therefore, leave the stones to lay on the ground. Although I try to be consistent in my efforts to forgive I still have my limits on how much abuse I'll take and that's when a decision has to be made in regards to whether I'll continue or end the relationship. Others may show themselves to be more rigid but I'm just not the one to hold grudges. Then Peli you're an example of what Grogzen described as the diversity of American values and ... whatever else it was he said, sorry, my brain's gone fuzzy at the end of a lonnnnnnnnnnng and tiring week! But yea, basically what he was saying is that Americans aren't all the same and assuming OSFA model for "American values" is pretty stoopid. Only he said it rather more coherently. Link to post Share on other sites
silktricks Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 And this is EXACTLY the reason why I don't understand how a BS could stay with their S after an A has been discovered. Why anyone would deliberately choose that kind of life is beyond my comprehension. I'm not going to condemn that decision, however, as I'm incapable of judging it due to my complete lack of understanding it! Well, because it isn't that kind of life for the former-BS anymore than it is for anyone in a relationship anywhere at anytime. No one ever really KNOWS that the future of their relationship is sound. You've got to work at it. If someone has made a bad mistake and truly regretted what they did, then they also know what led to the bad judgement in the first place. They have at least as much resistance to a future affair as someone who has never erred. Please note the phrase "truly regretted" in the above example, as that's the requirement IMO to staying with a formerWS. Maybe LSD is right... if the A was meaningless and a momentary stumble on the WS's path of righteousness:rolleyes:, maybe it would be better if the BS never found out. The A would be irrelevant to the health and wellbeing of the M. I have the impression that this is how most European's think of it. They're more "go-with-the-flow" than Americans are... a little more willing to acknowledge that M people are (gasp!!) fallible human beings, just like the rest of us. Am I wrong? I think part of the reason for such high divorce rates in America is the belief in "happily ever after". We are a nation who believes too whole-heartedly in fairy tales. Then when our fairytale partner turns out to have real human problems we go looking for another fairytale. It's sad. But to the "if the A was meaningless and a momentary stumble" comment. First, that's not what I personally took LSD's comments to be, but that's neither here nor there. An A can be (and probably usually is) meaningful at the time it is happening and still not necessarily be something that will break up the marriage. Most people here have careers, so maybe this is something we can all relate to: Say you are in the middle of a huge project at work. There are the planning stages, when the teams are being assembled. You know this project is going to be a huge commitment. It will take all of your time from your family for upwards of a year, possibly even more than that. In the back of your mind, you know it's possible that your spouse could even get fed up and leave you during this project - you don't want that to happen, but you know that it's possible. But the project is so interesting, and if you want to continue to progress in your career, you know that you should pursue it. So,,, you go for it. You not only get on the project you manage the project. Your time is completely consumed. You eat, breath, sleep and dream about the project. You have no time for your family. You never see your spouse. You don't want your spouse to think they aren't important to you, so you lie about what you're thinking about, and you lie about what you are doing. You wake in the middle of the night and instead of reaching out to your spouse, you think about the project and the people on the project..... well, you get the idea. Once the project is complete, though, it's over. Maybe it helped you feel better about yourself. Maybe it just sucked you dry. Maybe your spouse telling you that if you ever take on a project like that again they will leave, made you take stock of your priorities. For sure, that project has changed you in one way or another. No one (or at least very few) would say it's inevitable that you will take on another project like that. Nor would people generally say that the spouse should immediately dump the person. But in many ways the situations are similar. To the person married to the person with the project, it feels like they are having an affair. Link to post Share on other sites
OWoman Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 Well, because it isn't that kind of life for the former-BS anymore than it is for anyone in a relationship anywhere at anytime. No one ever really KNOWS that the future of their relationship is sound. You've got to work at it. If someone has made a bad mistake and truly regretted what they did, then they also know what led to the bad judgement in the first place. They have at least as much resistance to a future affair as someone who has never erred. I'm going to turn that around and say, isn't that the same kind of risk we're taking, as OWs, with our MMs when we M or LTR them post-A? I've seen more than one OW here post, in response to a question about "why would you trust a known cheater", state that BECAUSE of the history of the A, they're far more aware and tuned in to the dynamics of an R, sensitised to the little things that can go wrong, and committed to act on those before they get to the point of no return. I'm not sure if it's easier or more difficult (or a bit of both) for a BS who's been in the disrupted M with the CS, than a OW who's been in a different position vis a vis the "cheating", but I imagine the same kind of thinking applies. Link to post Share on other sites
LakesideDream Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 But purposely living under the sword of "Damocles", no matter how comfortable, can never be fullfilling because the constant reminder of the danger looming overhead, no matter how absent, prevents one from fully relaxing and enjoying life. I'd consider it a forced happiness to attempt to live in blissfull ignorance when I know or at least suspect, somewhere in the back of my mind, that she's cheating on me. Read, read, read. I wans't living under a sword that last year, or attempting blissfull ignorance as you put it. I didn't know she was cheating. I did know that she was happier, nicer, more romantic, hyper sexual, all the things I had hoped for in her as a mate for the previous 24 years. I didn't know that she was "compensating" for her adultery, or plans to leave on a schedule. She knew me well enough after a long marriage to fool me completely. it was a happy time for me until discovery day. Sure it was a lie. Howerever I have been pampered emotionally, physically, and sexually for a year (exactly to the day as it turned out) and it was blissful. Link to post Share on other sites
pelicanpreacher Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 Read, read, read. I wans't living under a sword that last year, or attempting blissfull ignorance as you put it. I didn't know she was cheating. I did know that she was happier, nicer, more romantic, hyper sexual, all the things I had hoped for in her as a mate for the previous 24 years. I didn't know that she was "compensating" for her adultery, or plans to leave on a schedule. She knew me well enough after a long marriage to fool me completely. it was a happy time for me until discovery day. Sure it was a lie. Howerever I have been pampered emotionally, physically, and sexually for a year (exactly to the day as it turned out) and it was blissful. I apologize for the misunderstanding...I see your point completely! Link to post Share on other sites
OldEurope Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 Where do people get this idea that Europeans have a casual attitude toward affairs? They get very hurt as well and I have seen bad fallout from such situations yes, even here in amorous Italy. Indeed, there are parts of European society that you don't read about in the hum-drum press which are quite conservative and where divorce is still taboo. It's not all some free-love love fest out here. And as for the American divorce rate--I don't think it is because of the disallusioned "fairy tale". I think most rational people go into a marriage with steady expectations. I think it is more the fact that Americans go on living as singles in their marriages rather than thinking big picture about the couple. We have an autonomous streak which is fine and wonderful, but autarky in a relationship can be deadly. xoxo OE Link to post Share on other sites
herenow Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 Where do people get this idea that Europeans have a casual attitude toward affairs? That's what we have been told here on LS by a couple of posters. I know that here is where I got that idea. Link to post Share on other sites
OWoman Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 She knew me well enough after a long marriage to fool me completely. Then LsD... how come the converse didn't apply? Why did you not "know her well enough after a long marriage" not to be fooled by her? You'd been in the same marriage, just as long, and had spent as much time with her as she with you. Surely? I'm genuinely curious. Link to post Share on other sites
OWoman Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 Where do people get this idea that Europeans have a casual attitude toward affairs? OE I think the depiction wasn't so much "casual" as "pragmatic". Link to post Share on other sites
Nevermind Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 Still, I am from Europe and I don't see it very pragmatically. Nor do any of my friends, actually. We're all individuals. Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts