Another porn question...

[trust]

Yes and I believe most things I read on the internet. Must be a fact.

 

Your problem isn't porn, it's a lack of compromising between you and your husband based on differing beliefs.

 

Uhhhhhh......not quite. His "porn" went past healthy, into addiction. Did you minimize your porn window long enough to read the part about him doing it at the family BBQ with the kids present? Seriously? And she needs to compromise? Yeah. Ok... your husband got 3 Driving Under the Influence tickets and has lost his license. You and your husband need to compromise on what you believe a healthy alcohol consumption is.

[Jennifer26]

Uhhhhhh......not quite. His "porn" went past healthy, into addiction. Did you minimize your porn window long enough to read the part about him doing it at the family BBQ with the kids present? Seriously? And she needs to compromise? Yeah. Ok... your husband got 3 Driving Under the Influence tickets and has lost his license. You and your husband need to compromise on what you believe a healthy alcohol consumption is.

Thank you!

 

I think I have been pretty compromising with the entire thing. I'm totally willing to accept him looking at it sometimes, just not all of the time.

 

But an update, I did decide to go ahead and have a talk with him about it tonight. He did agree he has been looking at it too much and he said he won't look anymore. I stopped him right there and told him it is okay if he looks, but just if he could try to keep it maybe once or twice a week instead of daily I would be a much happier wife. And I think our sex life would be better and he agreed.

 

It was actually one of the first times we've had a discussion about this without having a heated argument. So I am feeling much more positive about things.

 

The problem will be of course, if he'll be able to restrain himself. I do hope so.

 

And thank you for the kind comments. I agree with what you said about being ripe for an affair. I have often thought about the possibility. And while I don't condone cheating, nor have I come close other than just slightly entertaining the idea - I do know that often I feel pretty neglected and sexually frustrated and I'd love to say my morals would prevent me from an affair. But years of frustration, anger, lack of trust and feeling like my husband really doesn't want me may make it harder to resist another man filling these voids.

[luvstarved]

Good for you, Jennifer26. I must say that you seem very honest and open minded and I think that will serve you very well in your M...I do understand your "icky" feelings about guys walking around thinking sexually about women they know or see...I accept it, I guess, but...

 

I feel weird because I know my H does this but I do not know who his "targets" are. Sometimes I feel odd standing around with my H and an attractive female neighbor chatting, wondering if he was thinking about her that morning while he was jerking off and now here we are all standing around making idle chit-chat. It DOES make me feel weird, I can't deny it. That isn't to blame him for it, just telling the truth about my feelings.

 

I don't know if there is much to do but try to accept the gender differences and attempt to act respectfully to each other.

 

I mean, you see an ugly rock star with a supermodel and a guy will think, how did an ugly ass like him get such a great woman - and a woman will think, he is so talented and successful, why would he be with such a bimbo?

 

Well. They have their reasons.

[Jersey Shortie]

For men to achieve the visual fidelity and emotional chastity that you seem to want for us, we'd have to be castrated AND lobotomized. But then, maybe that's what you'd prefer? No wandering glances, no fantasizing about that good-looking secretary, we'd be docile and easily domesticated...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

No, Mr. Lucky I don't want men castrated and lobomotmized. I'd like to see more self control . Something I find lacking in most men when it comes to sex. The occasional look/glance/fantasy is okay. But how often is it "occasional" compare to pretty damn "consistent" with men? The amount of things men expect women to be "cool" with and do it with a crap-eating smile, is over whelming. It seems that anything short of physically sleeping with another woman is okay by men's standards. I just wonder where the commitment is. I wonder why men pretend they even value commitment and loyalty when it doesn't seem like most men value those things at all. It's easy to "committ" if you have all these other outlets you are using to sustain yourself. So it makes the commitment worth less.

 

 

Jersey, I see your point and tend to agree. However, who cares.. as long as it's not acted on.

 

Because it makes it seem like a facade. Here a man might have a beautiful family, a wife that loves him, and at the end of the day behind close doors he is wanking it to the lastest new crop of young women in porn. It's disheartening and hard to trust men that they really value or care about women at all. No matter what you do for a guy, what seems to trump and come out on top is whatever he doesn't have and whatever is "new".

 

 

Jersey_Shortie, suppose a man was uncomfortable with his partner wearing make-up and dressing attractively? He might argue that her choices were making him upset and unless she wore a sack hiding everything but her eyes (as some cultures do), she is provocatively inflaming other men's desires and disrespecting him. Does the man have the right to demand this of his partner? Should she acquiesce to soothe his jealousy?

 

Her wearing make up and dressing attractively doesn't have anything to do with wanting to attract other men or masturbate to them. I think most women are okay with her man dressing attractively and would be proud of him for it. I think most women would be okay with a woman looking at her husband and her saying "oh he is attractive", and going on about her day.

 

 

That is probably the exact reason he was less then truthful. This forum is a perfect example, most (not all) women dislike porn/strip clubs/wandering eyes. And obviously most men know this too, not like it's a big secret the way women rant about it constantly.

 

 

The way you choose to word your posts appears that you don't really have much sensitivity towards women on this issue. If a man is less then truthful about what he wants, that is his fault. By not being honest about the person you are and what you can give in a relationship, you are taking away the choices of your partner to see if they really want to be with the type of person you really are. I do understand why men lie about it. However, it makes us trust you less, it makes us more resentful and it means that you are basically making a choice for us that should be ours.

 

 

And since we know that most all men have a wandering eye for looking at women, a large majority of men do in fact look at porn and a smaller percentage go to strip clubs, it looks like the only lasting relationships that would make it are the ones where the women have an interest in it too and aren't insecure about it or the guy complete forgos all of the previous stuff and only has eyes for her.

 

Not such a good deal for women is it. Men get partners that value him and want to make a commitment to him and don't have nearly the wandering eye he does, and women get partners that are pretty much just looking at any other attractive woman, thinking about her, wishing and fantasizing about her. I guess it works out great for men. You guys are pretty lucky. It's just too bad that women are the ones that end up with the raw deal. I guess that's just the way men want it. I don't know to be honest but that's how it would appear. It's extremely discouraging and makes committed, loyal relationships with men truly impossible.

 

 

The reason I said it was bitter because that is the first thing she seems to think about when she sees a man with his family, that he has some terrible porn habit. Maybe you don't think that comes off as bitter but I sure do. That's harboring some real resentment and hatred about something to feel so strongly about it that it is the first thought someone has when they see a man.

 

I don't believe I said "terrible porn habit".. I believe what I said was that when I go out in public and I see a man with his family, behind closed doors he is probably wanking it off to 18 year old girls with implants. It's not a very promising future for those of us that would like a good man.

 

I do harbor resentment over this. I don't deny that. I wish I didn't but it is how I feel. How are women suppose to trust men if what men show us is that they will go to such lengths to hide and protect their porn? How are women suppose to trust men if everytime we got our back turned and even when we don't, he is checking out the other options. You said yourself that :"since we know that most all men have a wandering eye for looking at women, a large majority of men do in fact look at porn and a smaller percentage go to strip clubs..." It's a serious question out there for all the men. How is a woman suppose to feel trust and respect and security in the relationship that you have together if everytime she turns around you are looking at another woman? Do you think that's the thing that creates trust? I actually think this is a good question and would be open to hearing what men think the solution is for that.

 

 

I've been told numerous times, by men, that often when they're checking out a woman they're saving a picture so to speak, for later on.

 

I have been told that as well. It's one reason why i get upset when I notice a man out with his family or wife checking me out. He is being completely disloyal to his wife and family all because he doesn't want to show her respect.

 

 

It DOES make me feel weird, I can't deny it. That isn't to blame him for it, just telling the truth about my feelings.

 

I don't really even get the impression men want the truth of our feelings. It seems that they just want us to smile and pet them them and tell them how wonderful they are all the while, they are thinking about other women.

 

At the end of the day I truly love men and love their differences. But I also have alot of hurt and discourgament over the way men behave sometimes. Especially when it comes to other women. There is not control, there is no true loyatly from men. They will defend the porn and other women over the one woman in their life that you would hope would mean something to them. Nothing is every enough/good enough for men and they don't value or respect their relationships with women. They seem to value and respect women in numbers, but never the importance of one woman over it all. Discouraging and disheatening. They should probably tell us when we are little girls that when you grow up and have a relationship with a man, fall in love with him, give him your heart and try to be a good partner, at the end of the day in the relationship it's going to be you, him and the harme of other owmen he needs to feel happy with himself and with you. Maybe father's should be having those talks with their daughters instead of giving their daughters the false idea that they will actually have and be an important part of a mans' life.

[The Collector]

 

Her wearing make up and dressing attractively doesn't have anything to do with wanting to attract other men or masturbate to them. I think most women are okay with her man dressing attractively and would be proud of him for it. I think most women would be okay with a woman looking at her husband and her saying "oh he is attractive", and going on about her day.

 

You missed/sidestepped my point. I am asking where one person's right to be themselves ends and where their partner's desire to change them based on being upset or unhappy begins.

 

For most people (not that most means right), relationships involve monogamy. Not so for the OW on this site, who have their own frameworks. For some, like you, monogamy is in an ideal state which features not even the thought of another person, and definitely no jerking off over them. For many others, in this thread included, that's unrealistic and perhaps a little unattractive, so porn is tolerated or enjoyed by both.

 

So you cannot speak for all women, and your issues with men's porn habits are your own, not a universal truth. If you want to address hypocrisy, you could argue that if the same men that watch porn wouldn't like their partners fantasizing about other men, or watching 'Big-Tooled Lummoxes XIV' or whatever, then they have double-standards. I'd agree.

 

But women in healthy relationships do fantasizeother men, go to male strips shows where the men are presented as a great big joke and if they watch porn, will see some bigger better cocks than their partner's. And plenty of men have no problem with that whatsoever.

[trust]

Which is why porn use and any concerns about it should come up much earlier in the relationship than after marriage! How are all these couples getting married without knowing anything about each other's fantasy lives and masturbation habits and views?

 

More to the point, WHY would you get married if you can't or don't discuss your sexuality with each other????

 

Sexual compatibility is very important to the success of a marriage, clearly, and masturbation is a key component of everyone's sexuality. If you don't have the kind of relationship where you talk about it, then what compels you to marry someone like that? And if you do marry, then you really have no leg to stand on in terms of wanting to prohibit your partner from thinking or doing what they've done all their lives.

 

How hard is it to say to your bf when you're dating, "I've heard a lot of guys masturbate to porn. Do you?"

 

I agree with you completely. It’s called – getting married when you are emotionally immature. You’re asking them to be relationship smart enough to know the things to ask in order to be relationship smart. How’s that supposed to happen? There’s no class, no good examples, basically no education for relationships. There’s no wonder we fail miserably at it. I’m just confused as to why you’re confused. So what happens? Lessons are usually learned the hard way and then we’re left with consequences. That’s why most folks (me included) are here on this forum sharing our experiences.

 

 

There’s also the common scenario where you have a girl who is more “relationship smart” than the guy. Girl asks young-and-relationship-dumb guy, “I’ve heard lots of guys masturbate to porn. Do you?” Young-and-relationship-dumb guy thinks, “uh oh, here comes a conflict, time to tell her what she wants to hear instead of the TRUTH.” Girl believes him. Young-and-relationship-dumb guy survives for another day. Right until the day the truth comes back to bite him in the ass. This so happens to be the scenario I was wrapped up in. Only she was the young-and-relationship-dumb girl. Even when one is a little wiser, you are still left with the lies. Then the lies came back and bit her in the ass, taking me down with it.

 

The hope I hold on to, and also the satisfaction that I get, is the possibility that some young-and-relationship-dumb guy/girl takes part in these discussions, learns something, and applies it, before the horse is out of the barn.

[norajane]

There’s no class, no good examples, basically no education for relationships. There’s no wonder we fail miserably at it. I’m just confused as to why you’re confused.

 

I'm confused because in every serious, long term relationship - and in most short ones, too - the topic of masturbation has come up. Often. And generally in a playful way. It wasn't a loaded issue - it was just one more thing we talked about before, during, or after sex. Wanting to know about each other and our turn-ons.

 

I suppose if I'd been adamantly opposed to masturbation, fantasy, and the concept of porn, they may have kept their mouths shut about it.

 

And I suppose some guys might have tried to hide it. But...even as a teen, I knew that guys masturbated a lot, and they watched porn, and they masturbated to porn, so if anyone had ever said they didn't or would never use porn, I'd have known they were lying.

[fral945]

But an update, I did decide to go ahead and have a talk with him about it tonight. He did agree he has been looking at it too much and he said he won't look anymore. I stopped him right there and told him it is okay if he looks, but just if he could try to keep it maybe once or twice a week instead of daily I would be a much happier wife. And I think our sex life would be better and he agreed.

 

It was actually one of the first times we've had a discussion about this without having a heated argument. So I am feeling much more positive about things.

 

The problem will be of course, if he'll be able to restrain himself. I do hope so.

 

Jennifer26,

 

I think that was a very reasonable decision you made. Much better than telling him don't look at it at all. You've got a good head on your shoulders. It's good there are women like you that are understanding and can make reasonable compromises.

 

Now it's up to him to control himself. You can't control another person, and trying to would be futile. If he's mature enough and realizes what he has, he'll change. If not, find another guy who is.

 

Of course if things don't work out, you can always call me

[trust]

***************************************************

 

Jen: It’s very clear to me why you feel the way you feel. Only I haven’t heard you put the whole situation into enough words yet. Most of us need to backup for a minute and do our homework on just exactly what *sexual integrity* means. Porn and marriage just don’t mix. In a marriage, porn compromises sexual integrity, plain and simple. I would hope that for a married woman, sexual integrity equates to intimately connecting physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually (in all ways, not just some) with her husband and no other man outside of her marriage. Do you agree so far? Any compromise whatsoever (physical, mental, emotional, or spiritual) affects her sexual integrity as a whole. One infected part will eventually infect all of its corresponding parts or, at the very least, rob her of the sexual wholeness and fulfillment that she longs to have.

 

You’re out of balance right now, feeling the way you do, because your husband compromised the physical part of the sexual integrity that the two of you share. And does it really make sense to say that you think it’s a good idea to watch porn together? The moment you allowed that huge temptation into your home, you deserved the consequences. If it’s addictive and compromises your sexual integrity, why play with it? Wise up, don't dumb it down. Although I hope not, your story will most likely end like most others. You’ll give up the fight to correct it in order to keep the peace. Compromising things that shouldn’t be compromised. Resentment builds. Something else happens, you let it slide… resentment builds… Before you know it you’ve let so many pollutants into your marriage that you won’t be able to breathe. Compromise is case by case, by the way. Some things are “all or nothing” and this is one of them. Husband’s been diagnosed with lung cancer? Time for compromise. Just smoke a couple of cigarettes a day. That ought to do it. Then instead of posting in the “Marriage and Life Partnerships” section, you’ll be posting in the “Separation and Divorce” section. Take a peeksy over there when you get a sec. It’s not a fun place to be. Especially if you never learn the lessons, and repeat the whole cycle.

 

And Jen, better get your balance back in your marriage and quick. Personally, I have no bigger temptation than sex…and maybe coming in a distant second place, a bowl of Coco-puffs. Not only did I know you are ripe for an affair (glad to hear you admit it), but I’ll tell you how it would happen (so watch out for guys you may be “connecting” with during this time period). Remember that sexual integrity is not limited to physical boundaries. You’re not just going to go pounce on some guy one day soon out of the blue. No no. It’ll be more seemingly innocent than that. Rarely do we understand the emotional progression of relationships before it’s too late and we’ve been sucked into an *affair of the heart*. Because a woman can jeopardize her emotional integrity long before her body becomes vulnerable to temptation. Keep your thoughts in check. If you can guard your heart, you can protect your body as well.

[Jennifer26]

Ugh! I am so mad.

 

So not even two days went by, and not only did he go and look at more porn last night as soon as I went to sleep, he deleted it this time because now since our talk he knows I was looking. Which he said he was not going to do.

 

I know I said he could look sometimes, but I thought maybe, just maybe after a big discussion like this he could go a week?

 

But the fact he tried deleting all of his history, cookies, cache files, etc. just tells me he had no intention of cutting down. Only doing what he has done in the past and just took further measures to keep me from knowing. And our 'civil' discussion was probably just him saying whatever to keep me off of his back.

 

Really disappointing.

[trust]

Ugh! I am so mad.

 

So not even two days went by, and not only did he go and look at more porn last night as soon as I went to sleep, he deleted it this time because now since our talk he knows I was looking. Which he said he was not going to do.

 

I know I said he could look sometimes, but I thought maybe, just maybe after a big discussion like this he could go a week?

 

But the fact he tried deleting all of his history, cookies, cache files, etc. just tells me he had no intention of cutting down. Only doing what he has done in the past and just took further measures to keep me from knowing. And our 'civil' discussion was probably just him saying whatever to keep me off of his back.

 

Really disappointing.

 

Of course nothing has changed. Change requires work. His problem is a "we" problem and he's got to do his work.

 

See my second paragraph above, beginning with "You'll give up the fight..."

 

Sorry to hear that by the way.

[fral945]

Ugh! I am so mad.

 

So not even two days went by, and not only did he go and look at more porn last night as soon as I went to sleep, he deleted it this time because now since our talk he knows I was looking. Which he said he was not going to do.

 

I know I said he could look sometimes, but I thought maybe, just maybe after a big discussion like this he could go a week?

 

But the fact he tried deleting all of his history, cookies, cache files, etc. just tells me he had no intention of cutting down. Only doing what he has done in the past and just took further measures to keep me from knowing. And our 'civil' discussion was probably just him saying whatever to keep me off of his back.

 

Really disappointing.

 

Sounds like he does have a problem with porn, and it may take him a while to wean himself off of it. I'm no counselor, but I know with other addictions (i.e., alcohol, cigarettes), it can be difficult to break bad habits that are deeply ingrained. If you think it's not going to improve, though, give him an ultimatum: tell him he needs to get help (i.e., some kind of counseling) or you will leave.

 

I think you probably have a bumpy road ahead as far as your relationship goes. You'll have to decide if it is worth going through.

[Jennifer26]

Sounds like he does have a problem with porn, and it may take him a while to wean himself off of it. I'm no counselor, but I know with other addictions (i.e., alcohol, cigarettes), it can be difficult to break bad habits that are deeply ingrained. If you think it's not going to improve, though, give him an ultimatum: tell him he needs to get help (i.e., some kind of counseling) or you will leave.

 

I think you probably have a bumpy road ahead as far as your relationship goes. You'll have to decide if it is worth going through.

 

I've done this before.. the ultimatums, made him go to a MC once with me, I've even thrown him out of the house before.

 

I just don't have it in me anymore to keep fighting this. The thought of giving him another ultimatum, or making him leave, just exhausts me to even think about. I can't even take the thought of another heated argument.

 

I am at a point where I just don't even want to be around him anymore because of this. I barely speak to him these days either.

 

I don't really have a plan at this point. I guess keeping myself distant from him makes me feel better. I have a vibrator, and I guess that is going to have to take his place in the bedroom. I never use it because he hates that I have it (can you believe the audacity?) so I feel too guilty - but no more.

 

For the most part I have been extremely loyal to him. With the exeption of a few years ago (when our marriage was at a really rocky point and we never saw each other due to opposite work schedules) I screwed up and went seeking attention from other men online. I ceased that behavior long ago however, and I was upfront and told him everything I had done, which included showing a nude photograph of myself. I've never gone back and done anything like this again, and in real life I don't flirt with men, I don't check out other men, nothing.

 

I felt terrible over what I had done, and here, he doesn't give a **** what he is doing to me and he knows he is doing it. He's had an emotional affair with a real person in the past, which he only gave up because I threatened to leave him. He's went to a strip club while I was pregnant and spent hundreds of dollars and lied about that. He's spent countless hours seeking out porn and women to lust over while I've sat in our bed sexually frustrated. There have been times I've went upstairs, lit candles, put on lingerie and waited for him . . only to fall asleep and wake up in the morning to find him sleeping on the couch and having taken care of himself.

 

I'm just sick of it all.

 

I don't mean to pat myself on the back too much, but I know that I am a fairly attractive woman. I am fairly intelligent, and I have a good sense of humor. I take care of our home, my hobby is cooking gourmet dinners for him. I am a good mother..

 

And none of this matters to him.

 

I think I am wasting my youth, and making pointless attempts to change him. I don't think he is ever going to change.

[Jersey Shortie]

You missed/sidestepped my point. I am asking where one person's right to be themselves ends and where their partner's desire to change them based on being upset or unhappy begins.

 

Well if you can't be monogmous, don't have a committed relationship. There is nothing wrong with that. But don't get into a committed relationships where the other person is counting on you to make a commitment to them, and then turn around and say you need things like "variety" in women and want not.

 

 

For some, like you, monogamy is in an ideal state which features not even the thought of another person, and definitely no jerking off over them. For many others, in this thread included, that's unrealistic and perhaps a little unattractive, so porn is tolerated or enjoyed by both.

 

A passing thought about another person is no big deal. But when you entertain every thought in your head about another person, masturbate to porn reguarly, it's a different ball game. It's not easy and I never said it was, but it's not unrealistic either. There are men out there that are able to not look at porn, as porn is not a big part of their lives. Those are the good men out there that care about being committed to a relationship.

 

 

So you cannot speak for all women, and your issues with men's porn habits are your own, not a universal truth.

 

Nothing is a universal truth. There are too many different variables. Yours isn't an universal truth either. I know many women that feel the same way as me about porn.

 

If you want to address hypocrisy, you could argue that if the same men that watch porn wouldn't like their partners fantasizing about other men, or watching 'Big-Tooled Lummoxes XIV' or whatever, then they have double-standards. I'd agree.

 

I think that men have other inherent insecurities that they worry about women wanting them for, using them for. I think if women exploited those qualities in the same manner that these are exploited in porn of women, we would have a different story on our hands. "Big Tooled Lummonex" might be a movie out there but the majority of women aren't watching it. "Housewives *insert four letter word here*" is a movie out ther that alot of men are watching. At the end of the day most porn is made for men, by men.

 

But women in healthy relationships do fantasizeother men, go to male strips shows where the men are presented as a great big joke and if they watch porn, will see some bigger better cocks than their partner's. And plenty of men have no problem with that whatsoever.

 

The occasional fantasy is healthy I agree. But how many men only occasionally fantasize about other women?

 

And you said it yourself male strip shows are a joke to women. Most women are not turned on by male strip shows like men are turned on by female strip shows. Add in the fact that there are way more female strip joints then male ones, that tells you something right there. I bet more men go to female strip joints then women go to males ones.

 

Maybe there are bigger cocks in porn. There are also old men having sex with young women, fat men having sex with pretty women.... the stereotypes of looks in porn about men are just not equal to what women have to deal with. I'm sorry you can't understand that or be sensitive towards it. Most men really aren't I've discovered.

[Jersey Shortie]

I think that was a very reasonable decision you made. Much better than telling him don't look at it at all. You've got a good head on your shoulders. It's good there are women like you that are understanding and can make reasonable compromises.

 

 

Sometimes no porn at all is a reasonable compromise as well. There are some really good guys out there that are able to put it down for a change without being attached to it. It's just harder to find a truly good guy though. There aren't that many left.

 

Aside from that, look at all she has done and she still gets a man that doesn't treat her right. So the lesson here? No matter what you do, it's never good enough for men.

 

Jennifer, I am sorry you are going through this. It sounds like you have made all types of compromises and efforts and he has done little in return to show his appreication and care for you. I don't know your situation but I don know that you need to tell him how you are getting to the end of your rope with the situatoin and things either need to change or you need to make the change yourself and that will no longer include him.

 

Oh and in case any of the guys are wondering what makes women loose hope in men lets look at the things Jennifer did for her man that showed she cared for him and the things he did back in return:

 

 

1. He's had an emotional affair with a real person in the past, which he only gave up because I threatened to leave him

.

 

2.He's went to a strip club while I was pregnant and spent hundreds of dollars and lied about that.

(This one is truly disheartening because here is a woman that had his baby and he was where? At a strip joint while she was pregnant...he might of as well said :"hey hunnie, thanks for having my child but I need to go check out the tight little bodies of some 20 year old".

 

3.He's spent countless hours seeking out porn and women to lust over while I've sat in our bed sexually frustrated.

 

4.There have been times I've went upstairs, lit candles, put on lingerie and waited for him . . only to fall asleep and wake up in the morning to find him sleeping on the couch and having taken care of himself.

[Order & Chaos]

Uhhhhhh......not quite. His "porn" went past healthy, into addiction. Did you minimize your porn window long enough to read the part about him doing it at the family BBQ with the kids present? Seriously? And she needs to compromise? Yeah. Ok... your husband got 3 Driving Under the Influence tickets and has lost his license. You and your husband need to compromise on what you believe a healthy alcohol consumption is.

 

Um what!?! My apologies, no I didn't see the part about him doing it a family bbq and no, sorry, I don't have porn up on my computer.

 

And your last statement, well you lost me completely. My husband has never consumed a drop of alcohol so . . .

[Order & Chaos]

You missed/sidestepped my point. I am asking where one person's right to be themselves ends and where their partner's desire to change them based on being upset or unhappy begins.

 

For most people (not that most means right), relationships involve monogamy. Not so for the OW on this site, who have their own frameworks. For some, like you, monogamy is in an ideal state which features not even the thought of another person, and definitely no jerking off over them. For many others, in this thread included, that's unrealistic and perhaps a little unattractive, so porn is tolerated or enjoyed by both.

 

So you cannot speak for all women, and your issues with men's porn habits are your own, not a universal truth. If you want to address hypocrisy, you could argue that if the same men that watch porn wouldn't like their partners fantasizing about other men, or watching 'Big-Tooled Lummoxes XIV' or whatever, then they have double-standards. I'd agree.

 

But women in healthy relationships do fantasizeother men, go to male strips shows where the men are presented as a great big joke and if they watch porn, will see some bigger better cocks than their partner's. And plenty of men have no problem with that whatsoever.

 

Thank you! Exactly!

[trust]

Norajane: You said that, “even as a teen, I knew that guys masturbated a lot.. I'd have known they were lying.”

 

 

 

False. Sounded good though. Can you qualify that? All guys, or most guys? And if he had said no, then how would you determine, unless you caught him in the act, which group he belonged in? Comes down to time and effort. Did I think he was lying? How important of an issue is it? You may not think it’s important at the time but as you mature, all of the sudden it *becomes* an important issue..usually right after you get married to this same guy. Should I chase this masturbation issue? How much time will I give it? Hey! This is too much work… I want to have fun. This is bringing down my happy spirit. I’ll worry about that another day. Contrary to popular belief, money is not the root of all evil, laziness is.

 

 

When I dated my ex (I refer to her by another name but I’ll keep this polite), I had asked her that same question. She told me she had NEVER masturbated. Wow? Really? Never? And you know what? She wasn’t lying. Not about that. So my point is, no, sometimes you don’t know when they’re lying and the burden is on you to exercise some due diligence to figure it out. And if this guy has established TRUST with you, it’s all the harder to think he’s lying. Don’t be naive. They slip the lie in after the trust is established. Often times, I pretend to be naïve, just waiting for some girl to slip that lie in on something serious. “Oh?” you may say, “You don’t trust the girls you are with?” Hell no I don’t trust the girls I’m with. It’s called a discovery period. Trust isn’t given out. It’s earned, maintained, and to be respected. But you’re only working with your own smarts here, assuming someone else doesn’t catch the lie and bring it to your attention. Sometimes the professional liars will get the best of us.

[trust]

You missed/sidestepped my point. I am asking where one person's right to be themselves ends and where their partner's desire to change them based on being upset or unhappy begins.

 

For most people (not that most means right), relationships involve monogamy. Not so for the OW on this site, who have their own frameworks. For some, like you, monogamy is in an ideal state which features not even the thought of another person, and definitely no jerking off over them. For many others, in this thread included, that's unrealistic and perhaps a little unattractive, so porn is tolerated or enjoyed by both.

 

So you cannot speak for all women, and your issues with men's porn habits are your own, not a universal truth. If you want to address hypocrisy, you could argue that if the same men that watch porn wouldn't like their partners fantasizing about other men, or watching 'Big-Tooled Lummoxes XIV' or whatever, then they have double-standards. I'd agree.

 

But women in healthy relationships do fantasizeother men, go to male strips shows where the men are presented as a great big joke and if they watch porn, will see some bigger better cocks than their partner's. And plenty of men have no problem with that whatsoever.

 

Wow. There's so much wrong with that....I don't even know where to begin. Clearly you are one of those who are at the low end of the emotional development pole (not meant to be a slam...just an observation).

 

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOhhh…it’s a “framework” and “ideal state” now….How convenient to dodge the hard work of integrity and setup a new system devoid of it. I suppose if I had no clue as to what integrity was, I’d setup the same thing and call it a “belief system.” Stay in your camp of no integrity, but stop trying to recruit members from my camp of integrity (those who wish to do the work to keep the bar high). You’re so Hollywood.

 

 

Unrealistic and unattractive? Of course it’s unrealistic and unattractive. Who wants to do all that work that goes with keeping the bar of integrity high? Driving the speed limit is unrealistic and unattractive to me but I don’t go convincing other people that speeding is ok because I don’t agree with the law. What laws are you adhering to? Someone (our society) made some laws, we agree to them to avoid chaos, and have a system of checks and balances setup. Works fine for the most part. Better than a system where anything goes. The reason we can’t get along with respect to relationships is because everyone is writing their own laws. There’s no standard. Welcome to chaos, and welcome to this thread.

[fral945]

Aside from that, look at all she has done and she still gets a man that doesn't treat her right. So the lesson here? No matter what you do, it's never good enough for men.

 

JS, How do you come to that conclusion? What BS. Please quit with all the doom and gloom and man bashing. You provide no real solutions in your posts, just sympathy.

 

Jennifer26, ignore her comments. There are good men, but obviously you don't have one. You've got a guy who obviously isn't long term relationship material. He still has a lot of growing up to do. Cut your losses while you can and get on with your life. Get help from your friends and family if needed, make a plan. Life doesn't sound like it is going to get better in your current situation. You can keep fretting over it or take action to change it.

[norajane]

Norajane: You said that, “even as a teen, I knew that guys masturbated a lot.. I'd have known they were lying.”

 

 

 

False. Sounded good though. Can you qualify that? All guys, or most guys? And if he had said no, then how would you determine, unless you caught him in the act, which group he belonged in? Comes down to time and effort. Did I think he was lying? How important of an issue is it? You may not think it’s important at the time but as you mature, all of the sudden it *becomes* an important issue..usually right after you get married to this same guy. Should I chase this masturbation issue? How much time will I give it? Hey! This is too much work… I want to have fun. This is bringing down my happy spirit. I’ll worry about that another day. Contrary to popular belief, money is not the root of all evil, laziness is.

 

 

When I dated my ex (I refer to her by another name but I’ll keep this polite), I had asked her that same question. She told me she had NEVER masturbated. Wow? Really? Never? And you know what? She wasn’t lying. Not about that. So my point is, no, sometimes you don’t know when they’re lying and the burden is on you to exercise some due diligence to figure it out. And if this guy has established TRUST with you, it’s all the harder to think he’s lying. Don’t be naive. They slip the lie in after the trust is established. Often times, I pretend to be naïve, just waiting for some girl to slip that lie in on something serious. “Oh?” you may say, “You don’t trust the girls you are with?” Hell no I don’t trust the girls I’m with. It’s called a discovery period. Trust isn’t given out. It’s earned, maintained, and to be respected. But you’re only working with your own smarts here, assuming someone else doesn’t catch the lie and bring it to your attention. Sometimes the professional liars will get the best of us.

 

You're making it so complicated, when it just wasn't. Maybe it's because I grew up in a blue collar neighborhood, but guys talked about sex and masturbation and porn movies and porn stars ALL the time. I knew all about John Holmes and Marilyn Chambers even though I hadn't seen a porn movie until I was 18 and off to college. If you had ANY guy friends or contact with guys, you knew. It was not a secret. There was no need to lie. Every guy may not have been so vocal about it, but enough were that it seemed pretty clear that guys were playing with their toys ever since they knew they could, and that they used porn - magazines, movies, whatever they could get their hands on - to do it.

 

Girls, yes, much less likely to masturbate early on. And less likely to discuss it. But women's masturbation habits are not the problem here.

[trust]

For men to achieve the visual fidelity and emotional chastity that you seem to want for us, we'd have to be castrated AND lobotomized. But then, maybe that's what you'd prefer? No wandering glances, no fantasizing about that good-looking secretary, we'd be docile and easily domesticated...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

LOL. Mr. Lucky, I’ve read quite a few of your posts since I first landed here at Loveshack maybe a week ago. And for every one of those posts, and for every one of the points you’ve made, I’ve said, “Uh huh, yeah, uh huh, exactly, that’s right, uh huh..” ….until now. Man…it hurts to go up against the team (team fellas) but you’ve got this one all wrong. And boy did Jersey Shortie spell it out. Jersey Shortie, for what it’s worth, I’ll stand right next to you and support the truth and integrity all day long with you. I agree with you completely and whole-heartedly. Every single word you typed out was the absolute truth. If only more mothers were like you. Jersey Shortie listen to me when I tell you this -- Mr. Lucky is a smart cookie. I think he knows he’s wrong… he’s just not at a point to admit, or maybe realize it yet. Old habits are hard to break. I don’t know how in the world anyone could read what you had to say and argue against it. My guess is you won’t get much of an opposition to that complete truth.

 

 

I see a lot of people talking past each other. One marriage is not equal to the other. Why? Because of our definition of terms. What does it mean to be married? What is sexual integrity? What is a healthy relationship? What is love? What is happiness? What’s loyalty, commitment? And to what degree must I adhere? Etc. Etc… most married couples never answered those things for themselves, not to mention never comparing notes if they had. It’s when we got married that all of those details from not being on the same page hit us. It would be a good idea for Raven or Jen to go into detail about what it means for her and her husband to have a healthy marriage. Sad to say most married couples won’t have but a few sentences because of the depth of their emotional understanding. Until we define all those terms (the work necessary to upgrade our emotional maturity), there won’t be a clear understanding of what we’re dealing with. It all comes down to laziness. Laziness comes in many different forms. Then we start making excuses based on our priorities (which we set by the way). In trying to understand ourselves and our partners we just give up and wait for the damage to set in, thinking automatic pilot will get us where we’re going. Hoping the good times will outweigh the bad.

 

 

What’s really sad is when people chime in with lame points and buzz words that sound good in a different context, that end up just bringing down integrity (i.e. compromise, healthy porn use, etc.) The logic they try to sell you is: compromise is good --> therefore compromising on the porn is good. No no no. COMPROMISE IS NEVER GOOD WHEN IT’S AT THE EXPENSE OF INTEGRITY. And if you have a low to no level of integrity, this doesn’t give you the right to confuse others into lowering the bar. Stop that!

 

 

The basic problem here is that we are not all on the same level of understanding. We’re not at the same level of emotional maturity. You can go back and forth all day long but some people will never get it. It’s really refreshing to come here and listen to people who not only have a high degree of INTEGRITY, especially as it relates to something as sacred as a marriage, but who are also not afraid to set the record straight.

[trust]

You're making it so complicated, when it just wasn't. Maybe it's because I grew up in a blue collar neighborhood, but guys talked about sex and masturbation and porn movies and porn stars ALL the time. I knew all about John Holmes and Marilyn Chambers even though I hadn't seen a porn movie until I was 18 and off to college. If you had ANY guy friends or contact with guys, you knew. It was not a secret. There was no need to lie. Every guy may not have been so vocal about it, but enough were that it seemed pretty clear that guys were playing with their toys ever since they knew they could, and that they used porn - magazines, movies, whatever they could get their hands on - to do it.

 

Girls, yes, much less likely to masturbate early on. And less likely to discuss it. But women's masturbation habits are not the problem here.

 

Oh human behavior is complicated, especially when it comes to lies. You've just not done the work, resigned, and accepted a simplistic view of it.

 

I think you missed my point but it doesn't matter much as far as moving this topic along. The only point I was making was that sometimes they (guys and girls) lie about it, sometimes they don't. The lies then lead to problems. Women's masturbation habits are not the problem here - agreed. I only brought up an example of women/masturbation to support my point on lying about it.

[trust]

JS, How do you come to that conclusion? What BS. Please quit with all the doom and gloom and man bashing. You provide no real solutions in your posts, just sympathy.

 

Jennifer26, ignore her comments. There are good men, but obviously you don't have one. You've got a guy who obviously isn't long term relationship material. He still has a lot of growing up to do. Cut your losses while you can and get on with your life. Get help from your friends and family if needed, make a plan. Life doesn't sound like it is going to get better in your current situation. You can keep fretting over it or take action to change it.

 

Yikes. She came to that conclusion because she got emotional at the very end. She's an emotional being, cut her a little slack. At least 99% of what she was saying was true. Yeah, she went a little far there at the end. But she is not man bashing (that was the only time I've seen her talk in absolutes...I'm sure she meant "most" men so give it a rest). And most certainly, she is not a prophet of doom and gloom. Instead of sitting back and watching folks dumb the integrity down, she's fighting to keep it high. That's very admirable.

 

As for the solutions/sympathy....would you rather have a word full of women who were solution centered as opposed to sympathetic? You need a better understanding of the differences between men and women. Jen just now revealed that she sent some guy on the internet a naked picture of herself. If she did that, what else was she capable of? What else did she do? The other side of the story would be necessary with this particular case. Offering a solution of cutting her loses is just premature and ignorant. Typical response from a man though, to just slap a solution on it without listening.

 

Jen, don't ignore her comments...just that last one. There is a good man out there...you do need to review your vows, do some soul searching, and find it in your heart (seeking the best advice you can, making the best effort you can) to make this marriage **work**. After all that's done, let an experienced counselor, and your family help guide you on such an important decision as this. You're going to need all the help you can get.

 

God bless.

[J2FT1]

I've done this before.. the ultimatums, made him go to a MC once with me, I've even thrown him out of the house before.

 

I just don't have it in me anymore to keep fighting this. The thought of giving him another ultimatum, or making him leave, just exhausts me to even think about. I can't even take the thought of another heated argument.

 

I am at a point where I just don't even want to be around him anymore because of this. I barely speak to him these days either.

 

I don't really have a plan at this point. I guess keeping myself distant from him makes me feel better. I have a vibrator, and I guess that is going to have to take his place in the bedroom. I never use it because he hates that I have it (can you believe the audacity?) so I feel too guilty - but no more.

 

For the most part I have been extremely loyal to him. With the exeption of a few years ago (when our marriage was at a really rocky point and we never saw each other due to opposite work schedules) I screwed up and went seeking attention from other men online. I ceased that behavior long ago however, and I was upfront and told him everything I had done, which included showing a nude photograph of myself. I've never gone back and done anything like this again, and in real life I don't flirt with men, I don't check out other men, nothing.

 

I felt terrible over what I had done, and here, he doesn't give a **** what he is doing to me and he knows he is doing it. He's had an emotional affair with a real person in the past, which he only gave up because I threatened to leave him. He's went to a strip club while I was pregnant and spent hundreds of dollars and lied about that. He's spent countless hours seeking out porn and women to lust over while I've sat in our bed sexually frustrated. There have been times I've went upstairs, lit candles, put on lingerie and waited for him . . only to fall asleep and wake up in the morning to find him sleeping on the couch and having taken care of himself.

 

I'm just sick of it all.

 

I don't mean to pat myself on the back too much, but I know that I am a fairly attractive woman. I am fairly intelligent, and I have a good sense of humor. I take care of our home, my hobby is cooking gourmet dinners for him. I am a good mother..

 

And none of this matters to him.

 

I think I am wasting my youth, and making pointless attempts to change him. I don't think he is ever going to change.

 

From looking at your avatar, I have simply NO idea why your husband would pick porn over you.