snide responses to porn...don't get mad guys

[tanbark813]

To me, the whole thing basically comes down to this: the man isn't wrong for looking, but the woman is wrong for allowing herself to be looked at.

 

Does anyone else see it this way? This seems like a huge inequality.

 

I don't see it that way. I see it as:

 

The man and the woman are both not wrong for looking.

 

The man and the woman are both wrong for displaying themselves to others.

 

IMO, you're only looking at half of the possibilities.

[Jennifer26]

 

Does anyone else see it this way? This seems like a huge inequality.

Yes, and I agree.

[angie2443]

How would she get sexual gratification from other men looking at her? Would she masturbate at the thought of them looking at her nude body after posting the pictures? I'm not quite sure I understand how that would work.

 

For the record, I am a woman and I have no desire or urge to display my body for other men to look at, nor would i get any sexual gratification from that act. In fact, the thought of it makes my vagina dry as a bone.

 

Maybe this is why I cannot understand how you equate the two.

 

This makes sense to me. If you don't like bieng looked at by other men and/or enjoy looking at porn, then you probably wouldn't see how bieng looket at sexually is the same for women as looking at women sexually is for men.

 

The truth is, however, that most women do enjoy bieng looked at sexually by other men. Why do you think they wear bikinis in the summer? Why do you think there is such a market for cellulite and antiwrinkle skin creams. Why do you think push-up bras exist? You just don't see this kind of market for men. At the same time, most women don't look at porn or ogle men's bodies in the same way that men ogle women. Off the top of your head, think of 5 skin magizines marketed towards women. Now, think of 5 marketed towards men. You see, it is differant for men and women.

[angie2443]

Wow. This has become a very interesting thread.

 

Again, I am very surprised, but I agree with your further comments, Jersie Shortie.

 

I think this is the double standard some people are arguing:

It's not cheating for a man to look at a naked woman engaging in sexual acts online, and to derive pleasure from that looking.

 

It is cheating for a woman to be looked at in nude/naked pictures or videos online, and to derive pleasure from being looked at.

 

I thought the whole thing with porn is that it satisfies men's natural desire for variety without actual infidelity, so the marriage stays in tact. What about women's natural desire to be desired by many different men? If she posts nude/naked pictures of herself online and has feedback that lets her know she is being desired, that fulfills her natural desire. She is not actually making contact with another man or interacting with him in real life, it's all on the computer. How is that cheating? No one gets touched, each partner just has some way to fulfill urges that might otherwise lead to infidelity. What's the problem?

 

Exactly! Why should a woman have to stop doing what is natural and fulfilling to her, when the man gets to keep his sexuallity, so to speak.

[tanbark813]

Exactly! Why should a woman have to stop doing what is natural and fulfilling to her, when the man gets to keep his sexuallity, so to speak.

 

She doesn't have to stop. And the guy doesn't have to be with her. Do whatever the f**k you want.

[blind_otter]

The truth is, however, that most women do enjoy bieng looked at sexually by other men. Why do you think they wear bikinis in the summer? Why do you think there is such a market for cellulite and antiwrinkle skin creams. Why do you think push-up bras exist? You just don't see this kind of market for men. At the same time, most women don't look at porn or ogle men's bodies in the same way that men ogle women. Off the top of your head, think of 5 skin magizines marketed towards women. Now, think of 5 marketed towards men. You see, it is differant for men and women.

 

I wear bikinis. I just like the way they look.

 

I exercise to avoid getting cellulite because I don't like the way it looks. I use sunscreen and moisturizer and I don't lay out or go to tanning beds to avoid getting wrinkles.

 

I used to wear pushup bras (I can't now, being pregnant) because I like the way they make my figure look.

 

I cannot imagine focusing my energy on what other people think about me. It must be exhausting to be a woman and have to think all the time about whether men find you attractive or not. I just am who I am, and if men find me attractive, yay for them. If not, I really couldn't give two sh*ts.

 

I see men bending over backwards to make themselves look attractive for women all the time. I used to mainly have male friends, prior to being in a relationship. I remember sitting at my friend Tony's house watching him get ready to go out, and he changed outfits like 3 or 4 times and wanted to know if this or that shirt made him look better.

 

Personally, I don't know very many men who look at skin magazines. But, if you google "porn for women" - you get a lot of hits.

 

I dunno, I guess I just have a very different outlook. Maybe I'm not a woman! I should have a press conference. The real pregnant man!

[Stockalone]

The truth is, however, that most women do enjoy bieng looked at sexually by other men. Why do you think they wear bikinis in the summer? Why do you think there is such a market for cellulite and antiwrinkle skin creams. Why do you think push-up bras exist? You just don't see this kind of market for men. At the same time, most women don't look at porn or ogle men's bodies in the same way that men ogle women. Off the top of your head, think of 5 skin magizines marketed towards women. Now, think of 5 marketed towards men. You see, it is differant for men and women.

 

I am a guy and I don't watch porn when I am in a relationship. Does that mean that I can tell my gf that she is not allowed to wear make-up and that she is only allowed to wear clothes that diminish her beauty when she leaves the house? After all, I don't enjoy it when she gets stared at by other men. Why should she be allowed to get some kick out of it?

 

Best case scenario if I did that would be that I get laughed at for being an insecure loser, or that people tell me to move to Iran if I insist on being a controlling SOB who doesn't respect women.

 

I am not saying that women are wrong when they don't want their guy to watch porn, but you can't just demand that he stops watching it. If porn is a dealbreaker and no compromise can be reached, then people (man or woman) need to look for someone else that is a better fit for them.

[SunnySideUp]

I wear bikinis. I just like the way they look.

 

I exercise to avoid getting cellulite because I don't like the way it looks. I use sunscreen and moisturizer and I don't lay out or go to tanning beds to avoid getting wrinkles.

 

I used to wear pushup bras (I can't now, being pregnant) because I like the way they make my figure look.

 

I cannot imagine focusing my energy on what other people think about me. It must be exhausting to be a woman and have to think all the time about whether men find you attractive or not. I just am who I am, and if men find me attractive, yay for them. If not, I really couldn't give two sh*ts.

 

I see men bending over backwards to make themselves look attractive for women all the time. I used to mainly have male friends, prior to being in a relationship. I remember sitting at my friend Tony's house watching him get ready to go out, and he changed outfits like 3 or 4 times and wanted to know if this or that shirt made him look better.

 

Personally, I don't know very many men who look at skin magazines. But, if you google "porn for women" - you get a lot of hits.

 

I dunno, I guess I just have a very different outlook. Maybe I'm not a woman! I should have a press conference. The real pregnant man!

 

As always, there are exceptions to any generalization and nothing is clear cut. I understand that there are men who focus on looking attractive to women and women who like to look at those men. As a woman who occasionally watches porn, I understand there are women who watch porn. I also understand that many women want to look nice for themselves, that they want to look their best and it can help their confidence and self-esteem. All I'm saying is that there are women, myself included, who get pleasure out of noticing they are being looked at in a sexual way by men. It is not something I personally spend hours a day on or focus on in any way. It is not even close to the top of my list of priorities in my life, coming in way behind my son, my husband, my family, my job, my creative outlets in life, friendships, etc, all the thing that are rich and fulfilling. However, it is wonderful and amazing and feels just great to notice a man looking at me in that way that I just know he's attracted somehow to me. I'm starting to understand other women may feel the same. It's a fleeting, unimportant, passing, but fun part of being a woman.

 

My argument is that it is unfair to say a man can fulfill a natural desire to look at women and at the same time say that a woman (who happens to possess this desire, not ALL women) can not fulfill a natural desire to be looked at in a very similar manner to the way the man can fulfill his desire.

 

 

One of you is arguing that for both males and females, it is ok to seek out other people to look at but not seek out other people to BE looked at. If everyone in the world were married or had SOs, and all the men looked at other women, would all the women be in the wrong? Would the women be in the wrong if they were looked at? Would they be in the wrong if they took pleasure in being looked at? Would they be in the wrong if they sought situations in which they could be looked at so they could take pleasure in it?

[tanbark813]

One of you is arguing that for both males and females, it is ok to seek out other people to look at but not seek out other people to BE looked at. If everyone in the world were married or had SOs, and all the men looked at other women, would all the women be in the wrong? Would the women be in the wrong if they were looked at? Would they be in the wrong if they took pleasure in being looked at? Would they be in the wrong if they sought situations in which they could be looked at so they could take pleasure in it?

 

There is no universal rule for everyone. Personally, I just abide by the same rules I place for my SO. I don't do anything I wouldn't want her doing. Simple and equal.

[SunnySideUp]

using these terms in this manner: object=person being looked at, subject=person doing the looking

 

one gender has typically (not in all cases, but in MANY) been the object, and the other gender has been the subject.

 

What many of you are now saying is it is ok to take pleasure in being the subject, and to seek this pleasure on a regular basis, on the contrary you're saying that it is not ok to take pleasure in being the object or to seek this pleasure on a regular basis.

[blind_otter]

using these terms in this manner: object=person being looked at, subject=person doing the looking

 

I see it as being IN a porn versus watching the porn.

 

As you may know, having casually viewed porn yourself, there is porn out there that involves simple vouyerism. A woman stripping, pouring baby oil all over herself, and massaging her own body, for instance (that example comes from an actual clip I stumbled upon on a free porn site).

[SunnySideUp]

There is no universal rule for everyone. Personally, I just abide by the same rules I place for my SO. I don't do anything I wouldn't want her doing. Simple and equal.

 

tanbark I guess what I'm trying to express on a deeper level is that our ethical points of view have everything to do with societal ethics, even as much as we would like to think we're individuals and our ethics our simply our own, constructed from experience. I'm sure before women's lib many men wouldn't have liked the thought of their wives getting a vote, but probably had no idea there was a problem on the societal level. Maybe they all thought it was just a personal preference.

 

You don't do anything you wouldn't want your SO to do. You think her displaying her body is wrong, so you don't do it. You're taking an ethical stance on something. But how much desire do you actually have to display your body? It's probably not a big deal to you because that's not something that interests you anyway. However, you said in one of your posts before that if a woman didn't like you looking at porn, you'd leave.

Are you saying that if your SO posted nude pics of herself online, you wouldn't be ok with it? But you would be ok with it if she looked at porn or nude men online? If so, it seems like you're making a judgement that one type of desire is acceptable and the other type is not. Men and women are not built the same and do not have the same desires (obviously). Looking at nude members of the opposite sex does not have the same effect for both genders. Obviously, men have much more of a desire to do so and seek it out. On the converse, being looked at by members of the opposite sex may not have the same effect for both genders. Maybe women have much more of a desire to look attractive to the opposite sex than men do, and therefore seek it out more.

 

This all is kind of rambling and tangential, but my actual point is this. If it is a natural desire of (some) men to look at many different women in a sexual way, and if it is a natural desire of (some) women to be looked at by many men in a sexual way, then you are making a judgement that 1. it is ok for men to seek ways to satisfy their inherent desire without physical contact with another woman, therefore not breaking monogamy, and 2. it is not ok for women to seek ways to satisfy their inherent desire without physical contact with another man, still not breaking monogamy.

[Jennifer26]

My current gf doesn't dislike porn and isn't a whore who puts naked pics of herself online so it works out just fine.

Nice.

 

I love how women are whores, but the men who will push their spouses away and risk their marriages to look at these "whores" are totally justified because it suits their biological urges.

 

This entire thread just confirms in my mind sexism is long from being gone. There is still a huge double standard in our society when it comes to men and women and sex.

[blind_otter]

Nice.

 

I love how women are whores, but the men who will push their spouses away and risk their marriages to look at these "whores" are totally justified because it suits their biological urges.

 

I think everyone has said that if a man denies his partner a sexual relationship because of his addiction, that is abnormal.

 

Lots of people can and do look at porn occassionally and do so without damaging their relationship. Just like lots of people can and do enjoy drinking alcohol in moderation, but there are alcoholics who cannot control their drinking and thus negatively impact those who are involved with them.

[Jennifer26]

I think everyone has said that if a man denies his partner a sexual relationship because of his addiction, that is abnormal.

 

Lots of people can and do look at porn occassionally and do so without damaging their relationship. Just like lots of people can and do enjoy drinking alcohol in moderation, but there are alcoholics who cannot control their drinking and thus negatively impact those who are involved with them.

I understand this, but look at all of the women on this board and all of the discussions about porn and how it can effect a relationship.

 

Porn doesn't always have to be at an addiction level to cause problems in a marriage. I've perused enough message boards to see that it is a major problem for many people and some of it is because of the frequency in which the man uses the porn, other times it causes self esteem issues for the women, and other times there are moral reasons she may not like it, and there are other reasons as well.

[angie2443]

I wear bikinis. I just like the way they look.

 

I exercise to avoid getting cellulite because I don't like the way it looks. I use sunscreen and moisturizer and I don't lay out or go to tanning beds to avoid getting wrinkles.

 

I used to wear pushup bras (I can't now, being pregnant) because I like the way they make my figure look.

 

I cannot imagine focusing my energy on what other people think about me. It must be exhausting to be a woman and have to think all the time about whether men find you attractive or not. I just am who I am, and if men find me attractive, yay for them. If not, I really couldn't give two sh*ts.""

 

You are focusing your energy on what other people think. Nothing wrong with this. Everyone to some extent cares about what others think. People only care about cellulite and wrinkles because others do not find them attractive. People where bikinis because they show more skin. People wear push-up bras to showcase the boobs. Again, nothing wrong with this.

[JerseyShortie]

Nice.

 

I love how women are whores, but the men who will push their spouses away and risk their marriages to look at these "whores" are totally justified because it suits their biological urges.

 

This entire thread just confirms in my mind sexism is long from being gone. There is still a huge double standard in our society when it comes to men and women and sex.

 

I'd request that Tanbark take back his "whore" comment. If men truly want women to be sexual beings and be vunerable and open with them, then we need to stop throwing words around like "whore" that are meant to make women feel bad for being sexual.

 

Tanbark, not one woman here has refered to a man in a degrogary way. It would be nice if you could do the same in regards to women.

 

 

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I cannot imagine focusing my energy on what other people think about me. It must be exhausting to be a woman and have to think all the time about whether men find you attractive or not. I just am who I am, and if men find me attractive, yay for them. If not, I really couldn't give two sh*ts.

 

 

Blind Otter, most women from 5-100 take a very feminine pleasure in being noticed by men. It's the nature of women. No one is saying that we focus all our energy on this or that it completes us as a person, but it's nice and flattering when a man finds you attractive. I don't spend my time worrying about what everyone thinks of me but I take pleasure in looking nice, doing my hair, wearing make up. I still am who I am for it too. And if a man doesn't find me attractive, it's all good. I don't give two sh*ts either. But that doesn't mean I don't get a very female pleasure from being thought of as pretty when a man does.

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I could not sum it up any better then SunnySideup is doing. She is expressing everthing perfectly and I am in total agreement. And she has posed some really good questions that I have yet to see be directly addressed. So I for one, would really appreaciate any male perspective on answering Sunny's questions:

 

If everyone in the world were married or had SOs, and all the men looked at other women, would all the women be in the wrong?

 

Would the women be in the wrong if they were looked at?

 

Would they be in the wrong if they took pleasure in being looked at?

 

Would they be in the wrong if they sought situations in which they could be looked at so they could take pleasure in it?

 

 

 

She also asked these:

 

 

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Is a man cheating if he watches an online video (porno) of a married woman performing sexual acts on herself? (and is it cheating on the married woman's part?)

 

Is a man cheating if he watches an online webcam show of a married woman performing sexual acts on herself? (and is it cheating on the married woman's part?)

 

Is a man cheating if he looks at a nudie pic online of a married woman? (and is it cheating on the married woman's part?)[/FONT][/COLOR]

[/FONT][/COLOR]

 

 

 

 

Even if you don't want your woman to put nude pictures of herself online, which is completely in your right and understandable to not want that in your relationship, to say she is a "whore" for doing it, is just wrong. Men are okay with women expressing their sexuality when it best alines with their own sexuality. But when you begin to take it to the context that is more feminine in it's heart, it seems that issues arise. It goes along with women being condemned for their sexuality. One of the reasons men are okay with porn, and their woman viewing porn is because it best alines with male desires and wants. Men of course are okay with women expressing their sexuality in a way that best agrees with his own. If you don't want your woman to show naked pictures of her body, and have discussed these terms, that is extremely resonable. But to say a woman is cheating for doing so, and a man isn't cheating for ogling other women's bodies, is hypocritcal. Perhaps women should lie about it? After all, if men weren't so uptight and just relaxed, there would be no issue.

[tanbark813]

You don't do anything you wouldn't want your SO to do. You think her displaying her body is wrong, so you don't do it. You're taking an ethical stance on something. But how much desire do you actually have to display your body? It's probably not a big deal to you because that's not something that interests you anyway.

 

Yes but my interest in doing so is irrelevant. Cheating is still wrong regardless of whether or not I want to.

 

However, you said in one of your posts before that if a woman didn't like you looking at porn, you'd leave.

Are you saying that if your SO posted nude pics of herself online, you wouldn't be ok with it? But you would be ok with it if she looked at porn or nude men online? If so, it seems like you're making a judgement that one type of desire is acceptable and the other type is not.

 

That is correct. I'm fine with one activity, not the other. That applies to both myself and my gf. It can't possibly be a double standard if I apply the same rules for her as I do myself.

 

Men and women are not built the same and do not have the same desires (obviously). Looking at nude members of the opposite sex does not have the same effect for both genders. Obviously, men have much more of a desire to do so and seek it out. On the converse, being looked at by members of the opposite sex may not have the same effect for both genders. Maybe women have much more of a desire to look attractive to the opposite sex than men do, and therefore seek it out more.

 

Maybe they do. That doesn't make my personal stance on the matter incorrect. I'm as entitled to my opinion and how I operate within a relationship as you are.

 

As has been said before, if you don't want your SO to look at porn, then don't be with a person who does. If you want to be free to expose yourself to others, then be with a person who is okay with that. Just because you feel certain things are right or wrong for you personally or for your SO doesn't mean other couples have to adopt the same viewpoint. Conversely, you are by no means required to adopt the viewpoint of others.

 

This all is kind of rambling and tangential, but my actual point is this. If it is a natural desire of (some) men to look at many different women in a sexual way, and if it is a natural desire of (some) women to be looked at by many men in a sexual way, then you are making a judgement that 1. it is ok for men to seek ways to satisfy their inherent desire without physical contact with another woman, therefore not breaking monogamy, and 2. it is not ok for women to seek ways to satisfy their inherent desire without physical contact with another man, still not breaking monogamy.

 

This doesn't logically follow. You're making generalizations about some men and some women and then drawing conclusions about all men and all women. You're also assuming all women have the same inherent desires which BO has proven is false. Different people like different things.

 

Again, IMO:

 

1. It is okay for me to look at porn. It is okay for my gf to look at porn.

 

2. It is not okay for me to post naked pics of myself publicly. It is not okay for my gf to post naked pics of herself publicly.

 

You are not required to agree. Likewise, it is not your place to dictate what rules I should adopt for how I conduct myself and my relationships. It also can't possibly be a double standard if I have the same rules for myself as I do my gf.

[tanbark813]

I'd request that Tanbark take back his "whore" comment. If men truly want women to be sexual beings and be vunerable and open with them, then we need to stop throwing words around like "whore" that are meant to make women feel bad for being sexual.

 

Tanbark, not one woman here has refered to a man in a degrogary way. It would be nice if you could do the same in regards to women.

 

Okay, I'll take back the whore remark. My feelings on the matter are still the same though.

[blind_otter]

You are focusing your energy on what other people think. Nothing wrong with this. Everyone to some extent cares about what others think. People only care about cellulite and wrinkles because others do not find them attractive. People where bikinis because they show more skin. People wear push-up bras to showcase the boobs. Again, nothing wrong with this.

 

I am? Wow, I wasn't aware of this fact. Apparently I'm running around trying get attention from men and I am completely unaware of the fact. How interesting. I love it when people think they know the motivations of others that they have never met, never talked to, and don't know anything about.

 

I don't like the way cellulite and wrinkles look because it is not something that I find attractive in myself. I am the one who looks at my body in the mirror everyday - I don't showcase myself, so I don't know why I would be concerned with cellulite or wrinkles if no one ever sees those parts of my body but me, or my SO.

 

I don't wear bikinis because they show more skin - for god's sake I'm 9 months pregnant and I still wear a bikini - I am NOT trying to get attention from men at this point in my life!

[JerseyShortie]

If a man isn't cheating for looking at naked pictures of other women with no futher interaction, how could a woman possibly be cheating for men looking at naked pictures of her with no futher interaction?

 

 

Okay, I'll take back the whore remark. My feelings on the matter are still the same though.

 

That's fine if you don't agree with the matter. But lets not put women down for being sexual, just as men would like if women didn't put them down for being sexual. We don't seem to have as much name calling directed to men as we do women.

[Lookingforward]

I understand this, but look at all of the women on this board and all of the discussions about porn and how it can effect a relationship.

 

Porn doesn't always have to be at an addiction level to cause problems in a marriage. I've perused enough message boards to see that it is a major problem for many people and some of it is because of the frequency in which the man uses the porn, other times it causes self esteem issues for the women, and other times there are moral reasons she may not like it, and there are other reasons as well.

 

and please take note of the women posting who frankly don't really give a chit if their SO watches porn as long as they get theirs......it may be YOUR view but it's not ALL women

[EnigmasMuse]

Some people like calling other people names. It makes them feel better about themselves.

[Jennifer26]

and please take note of the women posting who frankly don't really give a chit if their SO watches porn as long as they get theirs......it may be YOUR view but it's not ALL women

It isn't MY view actually.

 

I don't have a problem with my husband looking at porn so long as it isn't conflicting with our sex life.

 

I'm just trying to look at this objectively, and I do see some hypocrisy and double standards taking place on this issue.

[tanbark813]

If a man isn't cheating for looking at naked pictures of other women with no futher interaction, how could a woman possibly be cheating for men looking at naked pictures of her with no futher interaction?

 

Because it's not the same activity.