Seeking new perspectives

[Stung]

My post is in part the classic 'why won't he propose?' I've seen a hundred times here already, but I haven't seen my variation here yet. You see, my partner and I are not young, inexperienced, or struggling; nor do we have all the time in the world. I am 33, he is 37, we have been living together for two years, we already have joint bank accounts and insurance, we own property, we are solvent, we are already raising a child together (joint custody), and I am pregnant with his baby. Also, technically, he did propose. Sort of. Maybe?

 

The pregnancy came along a couple of years before we'd planned on it, but yes, it was something we'd talked about...however, we had always talked about it in context of being married first. We started our relationship long-distance, and when he asked me to move across state lines to live with him two years ago, I made it clear that I could only permanently leave the home I had made for myself where I was if we were going to be working towards marriage and family, because those were important to me. He said that was what he was hoping for too, and I moved in with him and his daughter from a previous relationship. She lives with us 1/2 the time and I have taken on the role of a second mother to her. We get along famously and he has been happy to have someone help him build a second family structure for her (before, his house was definitely a geek bachelor pad and while he has always been a loving father and very giving of his money and time, he's pretty clueless about stuff like laundry, family holidays, and the motivations of little girls, etc.) Just to forestall any members' accusations of accidental-on-purpose pregnancy, let me clarify a little: I had an abortion in my late teens. I'm not going to go into the very private reasons behind it or try to justify myself, but while I still believe it was the right choice for me to have made, the whole experience was painful and traumatizing and left me depressed afterwards. I told my partner back when we first started dating that it was something I would never do again, especially now as a capable adult. Also, I wasn't on the pill or anything I might 'forget' to take, chemical birth control makes me sick and so we have always used a diaphragm, after we agreed we were monogamous and stopped using condoms. he is always aware of it being put in...hell, he usually did it for me. What can I say...the diaphragm ain't 100%, people.

 

Now, shortly after we found out I was pregnant, he DID bring up marriage. I give him more credit for that than you might think. However...I'm not a total hearts-and-flowers-white-knight-sweep-me-away type, but we were sitting over breakfast, talking about the mortgage, and the next thing I know he asks if we should get married because of A) taxes, B) insurance forms C) pressure from my parents (who are not exactly thrilled about their first grandchild before their only daughter has a wedding). While I understand that those things are all considerations, there was not a single mention of love, commitment, growing old together...anything loving or romantic in the slightest. It really felt like he was making a temporary business proposition just because he'd knocked me up, and to tell you the truth, it hurt me. I tried to remind myself that he is a little afraid of marriage and has never asked anyone to marry him before, even the mother of his daughter (who left him because of it), but my pregnancy hormones were in full swing and it was hard being rational about my quasi-marriage proposal being solely about taxes, insurance and pressure. I basically said no, but we talked about why I was saying that. I told him that I could never say yes to a marriage proposal with the word 'pressure' in it, and that I wanted us to take a break from the discussion right then because I was getting upset. I asked him if we could continue to talk about it over the next few months, so we could figure out what we both wanted with clearer heads. I told him that I loved him and wanted to be with him and it did bother me to think about giving birth to his child without being married or engaged, but that I was also worried about the cost of a wedding, given that we are expecting a baby and looking to buy a bigger house together before it arrives. I pointed out that while I would be more than happy to elope, his (enormous) family would be upset by that, so it might be more practical to get engaged now but wait to marry until after the baby was born and finances settled a little. He seemed flustered and said I was misunderstanding him when I said that I could never marry because of taxes and pressure, but he couldn't or wouldn't say anything else to clarify, so he agreed when I said we should continue the talk later.

 

I am now five months pregnant and later has never come. I have brought it up a few times, and he always looks uncomfortable and lets the conversation fall into an awkward silence. I hate this. I hate it so much. It makes me feel like the first conversation was solely because he thought I might end up walking like his former girlfriend/mother of child did, and now he feels like he's off the hook, since I didn't snap him up right away. I keep going back and forth between two memories: one where he says he views marriage as nothing but a piece of paper, and one where he told me, on a night when we'd been drinking, that the reason he'd never married was that he felt like marrying someone was telling them that you loved them more than you had ever loved anyone else. Two diametrically opposed statements, which I am now torn between. If he really feels like it's just a paper, which might be backed up by the fact that we live together and have joint accounts, why would he be afraid of it? Or is he basically telling me that he just doesn't love me as much as he feels he should to marry me?

 

I'm leaning towards the latter, right now, and it's painful for me. It makes me question our future together. It's really weird, because it's turning out that marriage is way more important to me than I ever thought it was. Thinking that I might be about to have a baby with a man who doesn't think he loves me enough to marry me hurts, and I am pretty sure that I will become extremely resentful of it, over time. This all makes me think that maybe I should be considering moving on, instead of moving into a bigger, more expensive house with him. I don't want to, because I love him, and I want this baby to live with it's father and sister, but I also don't want to live in resentment or feel like I'm not good enough.

 

This pregnancy has been really hard on me. I've had to go to the hospital for extreme constant vomiting, dehydration, and migraines. For four months I was basically confined to my home, and I lost my biggest client because I was having trouble making deadlines. It sucked. I have been depressed, partly because I'm feeling uncertain of my future, but I am aware that it's also due to hormones, much as I hate to admit it. I know my emotions have been under a lot of stress and I am hormonal and having a harder time being rational than usual. This has made me reluctant to force this conversation again, because I'm a little afraid I'll throw down some ultimatum I don't entirely mean, or say something I'll regret. I'm confused and questioning myself and what I want. I'm really happy about this baby, but I'm also very sad that I don't feel certain about where I'll be living with it in a year's time. My relationship with my partner has had rocky patches, but I am not a kid with stars in my eyes, I know this is the man whose faults seem to mesh well with mine, whom I would like to spend the rest of my life working things out with. But not if he's still waiting and keeping an eye out for The One who's worth the ring, kwim?

 

I know you're all going to tell me I need to talk to him, and I plan to. I am going to visit my home city and my family for a week, in a week, and I plan to talk to him about all of this the night before. That way, if things get overly charged, we'll have a few days space to think about things. I know I have a tendency to get a little hot under the collar right now and so I want to give myself that space cushion in case I should feel tempted to make any rash proclamations; also, I figure it can't hurt to give him a few days to think without feeling like I'm pressuring him, and since I do feel he sometimes takes me for granted, maybe he'll remember how much he used to miss me when I lived out of state.

 

I guess what I am seeking from the LSers is new perspective. I don't necessarily want to be married before this baby comes, but I do feel strongly that we should work out some of these questions before we put a down payment on a bigger house. But am I rushing him? Am I overreacting? Did I miss something when he first mentioned marriage, or react badly, so that his clamming up is something I provoked? Are there big man/woman issues here I'm blind to? Also, how best to push this conversation without making it sound like I'm ultimatum-dropping? I'm worried about how my emotions might be clouding my judgement, and while I need to figure some of this stuff out, I don't want to neglect his emotions here. I just wish he'd be more forthcoming with them. I know he's under stress right now...the whole reason I waited this long to really pursue the conversation again was in an attempt to be considerate of his work schedule, since he just completed a major and difficult career goal, and I didn't want to stress him out further while he was in the middle of that.

 

I'm sorry this post was so long, I just wanted to try to hit all relevant background points and present this situation as fairly as I could. I'm an editor, but it's hard for me to edit myself, in an emotional situation.

[Ronni_W]

he DID bring up marriage. ...because of A) taxes, B) insurance forms C) pressure from my parents ...there was not a single mention of love, commitment, growing old together...anything loving or romantic in the slightest.

First, I freely admit that I did not read your entire post. But...

 

I think sometimes guys just think totally different than we do. It is so very possible that, in HIS (guy) mind, the "loving and romantic" stuff goes without saying, given all the other tangible signs that you (both) are totally committed and in love and planning to raise a family together.

 

If he NEVER expresses his love and devotion, then that might be worthy of further consideration on your part.

 

And he may also have been taking into account that you are not the "hearts-and-flowers-white-knight-sweep-me-away type" (which I'm getting that you are somewhat practical, organized, efficient, etc. -- not in a bad way, though)...anyway, then he (wrongly) guessed to apply those same qualities that you value to his marriage proposal. (Cos, like I said, sometimes guys just think totally differently...and in ways that I really can't make much sense of .) Memo to guys...don't do a practical and efficient proposal, for goodness' sake!!!

 

Yes, I do think it was kind of unfair of you to take his word 'pressure' out of context (even coming as the word did, in his marriage proposal.) One might make a case that he was simply trying to show his understanding of something that he felt (rightly or wrongly) was important to you.

 

So...yes, maybe a lot of inaccurate guesses and mouth malfunctions on his part. It's up to you if/how you want to reframe them in your own mind and heart.

 

For my money...tell him maybe, just maybe, you've been over-sensitive for whatever reasons (big life change, many hormonal changes, concerned about HIS own feelings about the changes, etc., etc.) Ask for and promise more open lines of communication in future. Then...

...go for the BIGGIE. Just say, "Darling, I do love you and I want to spend the rest of my days with you...now, when are we going to make this all nice and legal?"

 

May I be the first to congratulate you on your upcoming engagement and nuptials??? :love:

[porter218]

I agree the proposal is one I would have said no to as well. I think that you should tell him that you do want to get married but you want a real proposal, and maybe it would be more sincere feeling after the baby is born. I think you should calm down and recognize it is only stressing you out so much because there are so many life changing things going on at once( baby, new house, talk of marriage). tell him what it is that you really want and then just drop it completely until the baby is born. He will give you the proposal you want. I think that conversation was just trying to sell you on the idea of marriage before he went out on a limb and did the actual proposal.

[GPFan]

My sense is that he loves you very much. Some people simply aren't hearts-and-flowers romantics. Talk of taxes, insurance and family values isn't romantic but it shows a very practical mind that wants the best for you and your mutual child; not romantic but sincere and heartfelt nonetheless.

 

You are 'married' in every sense of the word except legal as it is.

 

You both sound like mature, level-headed people with differing modes of showing love and affection. You will have to decide whether or not to move forward with him, taking the good with the bad. Looks to me like there is a lot of good here.

 

Good luck and congratulations on your pregnancy.

[Stung]

Thanks for your replies, and for your congratulations!

 

You might be right, I can see how I might have landed too hard on the word 'pressure'...he was using it in the context of feeling it from my family, not from me, but it had this horrifying ring in my ears, used in the context of him asking if we should marry. And you're definitely right that we have both been under a lot of stress.

 

I had pretty much brought myself to the point most of you seem to be at, that it was a preliminary proposal discussion, that he didn't intend it to come out quite so dry and cold, that at least part of the reason I took that so personally was due to stress and hormones. The part that was really sending me into a spin was that although we mutually agreed to continue the conversation, every time I have gently brought it up in the four months since, he has let the conversation falter to an awkward halt, or changed the subject entirely. THAT was my biggest WTF, and what was leaving me feeling really sore on the subject.

 

Since the original post, however, the landscape around this has changed again. This weekend the ex-gf, mother of his daughter, announced her intention to split up her own family, and move a few hours away, of course taking her kids with her. Obviously, my partner and I are upset about this, and trying to figure out our next step. While I still feel my questions are important ones that need to be addressed before we plop down a big down payment on real estate, I also think they need to be back-burnered for the time being while he deals with this new stressor and we all try to decide how to handle this.

[porter218]

Thanks for your replies, and for your congratulations!

 

You might be right, I can see how I might have landed too hard on the word 'pressure'...he was using it in the context of feeling it from my family, not from me, but it had this horrifying ring in my ears, used in the context of him asking if we should marry. And you're definitely right that we have both been under a lot of stress.

 

I had pretty much brought myself to the point most of you seem to be at, that it was a preliminary proposal discussion, that he didn't intend it to come out quite so dry and cold, that at least part of the reason I took that so personally was due to stress and hormones. The part that was really sending me into a spin was that although we mutually agreed to continue the conversation, every time I have gently brought it up in the four months since, he has let the conversation falter to an awkward halt, or changed the subject entirely. THAT was my biggest WTF, and what was leaving me feeling really sore on the subject.

 

Since the original post, however, the landscape around this has changed again. This weekend the ex-gf, mother of his daughter, announced her intention to split up her own family, and move a few hours away, of course taking her kids with her. Obviously, my partner and I are upset about this, and trying to figure out our next step. While I still feel my questions are important ones that need to be addressed before we plop down a big down payment on real estate, I also think they need to be back-burnered for the time being while he deals with this new stressor and we all try to decide how to handle this.

If moving closer to where she is moving is possible, I would do it. It is important for you to be close to the other kid now that a new one is on the way. You guys were going to buy a house anyway so it shouldn't be a problem, unless work is an issue.

[Stung]

Moving to the city this woman is moving to is not possible. We were planning on moving, yes, but only because the condo we currently live in was already too small and cramped, before any baby issues came along; we were moving within our metro area, only about fifteen minutes from where we are now, to stay close to his daughter's mother and to his work. It is impossible for him to leave his work situation at the moment, for many reasons, and will be for at least another couple of years; also both of us have extensive family networks in this area, while in the city his ex-gf wants to move to, we will have nobody but her.

 

Tonight she changed her plan somewhat; she is now offering to stay put where she is, but only if we abandon our plans to move to the area, 15-20 minutes away, with a good school district where we can afford a bigger house. Essentially if we stay where we are, which is a place that we hate and that is far too small, she won't rip the daughter away, but if we go ahead and buy our nearby dreamhouse, she's taking the kid. She does have her reasons, but I am really seeing red.

[GPFan]

I don't blame you for seeing red! Do you think you are being manipulated?

[Ronni_W]

The part that was really sending me into a spin was that although we mutually agreed to continue the conversation, every time I have gently brought it up in the four months since, he has let the conversation falter to an awkward halt, or changed the subject entirely. THAT was my biggest WTF,

Putting myself in his shoes, I would also be reluctant to go down that road again -- because I really did try to do my best that first time, and I totally blew it, and my proposal (that is, "I") got rejected.

 

It's easy from where I'm sitting, of course, but possibly just letting him know that you accept your own role in his current fear of 'THE conversation' may help him start feeling a bit more confident about it again -- not even that he'll be all ready to TALK yet, but just will start feeling better about his first attempt.

 

I also think they need to be back-burnered for the time being while he deals with this new stressor and we all try to decide how to handle this.

Ah, that's a slippery slope! Sounds like a good idea to not talk about the wedding right now. BUT perhaps an excellent time to discuss how far you are BOTH willing to let the ex's vindictiveness interfere with your plans and happiness?

She is obviously using the only leverage she has, to try to spoil your relationship and create situations where he is forced to make ugly choices...for which you will likely grow to resent him once there are enough of them. A slippery slope.

 

If she does move out of spite, are there any negative consequences that SHE would experience? Possibly he can make her see the 'silliness' of her plan...but only if going through with it will also negatively impact her.

 

It sucks -- don't you just wish some people would grow up and try to keep their kid's best interest in mind...no matter what they think of the other parent?

 

Sending hugs and best wishes.

[porter218]

 

Tonight she changed her plan somewhat; she is now offering to stay put where she is, but only if we abandon our plans to move to the area, 15-20 minutes away, with a good school district where we can afford a bigger house. Essentially if we stay where we are, which is a place that we hate and that is far too small, she won't rip the daughter away, but if we go ahead and buy our nearby dreamhouse, she's taking the kid. She does have her reasons, but I am really seeing red.

 

WTF? what kind of reason for this could she possibly have?

[Stung]

Tonight she changed her plan somewhat; she is now offering to stay put where she is, but only if we abandon our plans to move to the area, 15-20 minutes away, with a good school district where we can afford a bigger house. Essentially if we stay where we are, which is a place that we hate and that is far too small, she won't rip the daughter away, but if we go ahead and buy our nearby dreamhouse, she's taking the kid. She does have her reasons, but I am really seeing red.

 

While that does sum up our end of the situation perfectly, it's not quite as vindictive a move as this makes it seem. I was angry when I posted last night and only wrote my end of the story. To be fair to her (and although I'm not particularly fond of the woman, I do try to be fair to her for the sake of her daughter, whom I love), she is in a complicated situation right now with her own family (she married years ago and has other children), her husband, and the graduate school she's attending. Yes, it's a situation of her own making, but we all strive for what's best for us. Without going into too many details, the part where her moving to another city gets dependent on where WE live boils down to school districts and commutes. Currently, we happen to live in an extremely expensive area with a great school district; my partner moved here many years ago when they split up. It's a small, hot ugly condo with no yard, but he owns it and he couldn't afford better in this particular area, and he wanted his daughter to go to a great school. Several years later, however, his daughter has never gone to school here because her mom wanted her to go to the school near her own house. Now that we are planning our move and actively scouting houses in our dream area, (again, roughly a 20 min drive away and also a good school district, but much more affordable real estate) circumstances are apparently changing in the ex's life to an extent that the only way she can see clear to staying where she is for at least another year is if the daughter comes to school in the district we currently live in after all. Where we had planned to move is unacceptable to her because she feels it increases her commute from her grad school too much.

 

I won't bash a mom for wanting her kid to be in a good school. However, I'm not sure how much of this is a power play. After all, this wonderful school district was available to her for the last several years, and she opted out. She had indulged in a few petty-scale power plays with me before, probably because I am the first woman to ever move in and live with her daughter, and I also feel pretty sure that she's not overjoyed about my coming baby, as it will unseat her somewhat from the Queen Bee throne she's enjoyed for years. I don't think she's evil or crazy, though, just pushy and controlling, and I don't think she'd actively try to ruin our lives or anything. That being said, she is well aware of the fact that the reason we were moving was that 1.) we both hate where we live now, 2.) we are having a baby, and we need more room, 3.) there is NO WAY we can afford a bigger place in this same neighborhood/school district. We have been planning this move since I moved in here two years ago, but the real estate market was slack enough that I agreed to suck it up and wait even though 75% of my belongings are still in storage because they simply won't fit here. The coming baby was sufficient impetus for us to just say f*ck it, let's put this baby on the market anyway, and I was totally thrilled! I have been dreaming of having a yard again and room for ALL our things and a real house with both the baby and it's big sister. Everything was set and on track except for figuring out the marital situation, and weeks before it all goes down, this gets thrown in our path.

 

We'd considered getting the courts involved, but we'd really like to keep it from getting any uglier if possible. The ex-gf graduates in a year, and I don't see any practical way to keep this from blowing up or to keep from losing my stepdaughter other than to stay where we are and have the baby here, even though the prospect makes me miserable. Surely she can't keep us here any longer than one more year, right? And there's the longterm to consider, in that we both suspect she's going to want to move out of state after she graduates, and we might have to hunker down for an ugly scene then.

 

This thread seems to have wandered from the original topic somewhat, but I was not expecting all this drama on top of the original stress. This morning after my partner left for work he came back unexpectedly because he forgot something and found me crying because I just feel so depressed about living here for another year and I'm so frustrated by having this other woman control my life. I know I signed on for it at least a little bit when I moved in with a man with joint custody, but i didn't expect it to be this hard. To be honest one of the biggest fears I had about having my partner's baby was the way it will tie me to this woman for the rest of my natural life. Anyway, he was very sweet and trying to reassure me that we will still find a way to get out of this place, but I just don't think it's realistic. Now I don't even know what to think about the marriage issue. It's still a huge deal to me but we have so much other stress and drama going on, I really don't know what to do about it. I don't want to just let it fall by the wayside, but I don't want to pile extra stress on top of us, either. One of my milestones, after all, was that I wanted to get the bigger questions about it sorted out before we plunked down a lot of money on a new house, so...I'm thinking there's plenty of time now before that's going to happen. I'm so generally upset about the last few days that I haven't even processed how I feel about THAT, yet. Next week I'm visiting my parents and I'm really not looking forward to them yapping around my ankles about getting married the whole time I'm there.

[Ronni_W]

Next week I'm visiting my parents and I'm really not looking forward to them yapping around my ankles about getting married

(((BIG hug)))

Why not tell your parents that you're both in the very early stages of planning the wedding? -- that really isn't a lie.

And that you will absolutely keep them in the loop when the time comes that you're both ready to "reveal your wedding secrets and surprises" -- that ought to keep even the most concerned hearts and snoopiest minds out of your hair for a good long while (and you can just keep saying mysteriously, "Ah...not ready yet!" and giggle like any soon-to-be-wed does .)

 

Also, I admire that you posted your anger here, and do your darndest to be fair to the other, in the "light of day" -- cheers for that!