Why berate Christians?

[FleshNBones]

Influences such as the divine right of kings? The spreading of their religion across Europe at the point of a sword, across the Americas at the barrel of a gun? The influences that led to the Dark Ages?

The plagues were what led to the Dark Ages.

 

I think Rome had something to do with the spread of Christianity. Don't forget about missionaries like St. Paul or St. Patrick.

What a singularly ironic statement, given that the rise of secular influences overthrew much of the Christian tyranny we suffered under hundreds of years ago.

I can only imagine the horror of a low crime rate, and supportive family atmosphere.

I guess you are a brothel boom town type of guy.

[disgracian]

In the US Christians aren't beating females who got gang raped, can't say the same about Muslim countries.

No, they're beating gay people to death and picketing their funerals.

 

Cheers,

D.

[disgracian]

I can only imagine the horror of a low crime rate, and supportive family atmosphere.

I guess you are a brothel boom town type of guy.

No, I like living in a society where women are treated equally instead of like property, and black people aren't enslaved.

 

Cheers,

D.

[I Luv the Chariot OH]

Touche, disgracian!

 

Seriously, "America remaining stable"? What planet is sks from? Has he ever heard of the Vietnam War? The Iraq War? The numerous other senseless and murderous wars/human rights violations that that "great Christian nation" has ravaged upon the world? Sickening.

[lemony fresh]

People do it to cause trouble. It's like when people go over to the OW/OM infidelity threads, people go on there to just berate them for having affairs, when the purpose of it is to provide insight and help for them. You can't have a decent discussion with people who do have spirituality as a form of strength and support in their lives because other people are too hell-bent on calling us stupid for having faith.

[kchiapet95]

I don't have a problem with Christians whose faith makes them better people, who use it to govern their lives and how they treat others. Anything that makes the world a better place, I'm all for. But there are those who use their faith to judge and berate others, and they deserve to get berated themselves. People who use their Christianity as a weapon, people who consider themselves superior to others instead of exercising humility...that's ignorance. And then they claim, "Well, Jesus said we would be persecuted."

 

They are like whitewashed graves, to quote the Bible again.

[FleshNBones]

No, I like living in a society where women are treated equally instead of like property, and black people aren't enslaved.

 

Cheers,

D.

Have you seen the difference between churched and unchurched black people? Maybe you should ask a black churchgoer.

 

I am not aware of women being bought or sold in the Christian community. I believe the tradition was for the bride's father to pay a dowry.

 

Rhetoric only works the converted.

[lemony fresh]

Yeah what is funny is that the people out there bashing Christianity are the same people hitting the stores to buy Christmas presents and going all out with the credit cards and entertaining to celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ.

[JamesM]

The above site is set-up to discredit the bible, but nothing in it is made up or not present in the bible.

 

Correct. While it is not "made up," it IS taken out of context.

 

Even the devil can quote the bible to his own ends.

 

Well said. So seems to be the case.

[JamesM]

Touche, disgracian!

 

Seriously, "America remaining stable"? What planet is sks from? Has he ever heard of the Vietnam War? The Iraq War? The numerous other senseless and murderous wars/human rights violations that that "great Christian nation" has ravaged upon the world? Sickening.

 

Coming from the great intelligent city of Waterloo, Ontario, this is not one of the finest remarks.

 

While the US is not perfect by far, for the past 200 plus years it has remained quite stable as a country even when instability threatened to overtake it. And as a result, the neighboring country of Canada has had the "privilege" of having a peaceful neighbor. If Canada bordered say Iraq while Saddam was in power, I am guessing that like the Turks, the above comment would be quite different.

 

I like living in a society where women are treated equally instead of like property, and black people aren't enslaved.

 

Disgracian, I do, too. And I am thankful that a Christian president had the courage to abolish slavery here in America. The US was set up as a free society, and thankfully, it has stayed that way. And I know that you must realize that in your great country and town, there has been influences of religion that has kept it a free society.

 

In the UK, it was Wilberforce who led the fight against slavery.

 

While Christianity has been used as a tool for evil means, it has shown to be a great influence for bettering life, too.

[JamesM]

 

Q. Why berate Christians?

 

A. "Just as your lack of religious belief affects us. At football games, in a community where no one has an objection to saying a prayer before the game, we are now not allowed to do so by law. Also, it is now politically incorrect to tell a fellow Christian in public Merry Christmas...now the "right" thing to say is "Season's Greetings". In a country where majority is suppose to rule (um, isn't that how voting and democracy works?), it seems the minority has taken over. Careful not to offend the minority! Oh No! It's just so horrible! But its perfectly ok for the minority to offend the majority?" - haloandhorns85

 

"Who is the one suicide bombing people? Its not Christians. / The Muslim religion is 800 years behind Christianity, look at the culture that endorses it. / As much as people go on about equality, Christianity is superior Islam any day of the week, at least at this point in time." - sks

 

"Who is the one suicide bombing people? Its not Christians. / The Muslim religion is 800 years behind Christianity, look at the culture that endorses it. / As much as people go on about equality, Christianity is superior Islam any day of the week, at least at this point in time." - sks

 

In short, because while I'm sure intelligent, open-minded, non-self-righteous Christians exist, they are far, far too rare.

 

 

I am an atheist

 

So is that why you used two quotes from an atheist to support your reasoning?

[Geishawhelk]

Disgracian, I do, too. And I am thankful that a Christian president had the courage to abolish slavery here in America. The US was set up as a free society, and thankfully, it has stayed that way. And I know that you must realize that in your great country and town, there has been influences of religion that has kept it a free society.

 

In the UK, it was Wilberforce who led the fight against slavery.

 

While Christianity has been used as a tool for evil means, it has shown to be a great influence for bettering life, too.

 

Furthermore, it's important to understand that Christians never began slavery in the first place, just by way of an additional factor...

The main traders in slavery were fellow countrymen in the middle East and Africa, who used is as a means of conquering other tribes and subjugating them. What better way to deplete the power of people than

by making them forcibly work for you, and selling them as a commodity. The Slave trade began slap bang in the middle of the slaves' own countries. At the hands of their neighbours, more often than not.

 

And these people are still in conflict and acting these hateful actions today. Israelite against Palestinian, Mugabe against his own people.

The Scots, Welsh and British - and the Americans and Canadians get along just fine....

 

So Christians and Atheists, today, are living in relative harmony, by comparison!!

 

Just noodling.....

[Sks]

Touche, disgracian!

 

Seriously, "America remaining stable"? What planet is sks from? Has he ever heard of the Vietnam War? The Iraq War? The numerous other senseless and murderous wars/human rights violations that that "great Christian nation" has ravaged upon the world? Sickening.

 

America has nearly always been in the right, to say otherwise is to deny history.

[Haloandhorns85]

No, they're beating gay people to death and picketing their funerals.

 

Cheers,

D.

 

 

Hmmm....and where is that? Because I'm pretty sure in this day and age, with the mostly liberal gay-rights supporting media, it would surely be on the news that I watch on a daily basis. Maybe years ago, but I'm not aware of that happening anytime recent.

[Haloandhorns85]

And that shows a callous disregard for the feelings of others.

I was a Practising Roman Catholic Christian for over 40 years.

I am now a Buddhist.

In both cases, I learnt - and am still learning - that we are owners of our reactions and responses, and we are responsible for how things affect us, and we are wholly responsible for the way we decide to inter-act with others.

Of course we feel frustration and anger. Of course we feel stressed and despondent. Of course we are subject to every emotion under the sun. The big thing is, how we manifest it.

It is beneath us, as civilised and serious practitioners to pass those emotions on to others, when what we should be doing is feeling the experience and working to transcend such basic states.

Remember the lesson of turning the other cheek? It's not just a one off you know.

If we accept a certain standard of literal teaching, then it is up to us to accept it 100%, and to live it 100% of the time. Or else, we cannot call ourselves "practising" anything.....

 

That you are a good christian is not for you to say. It is for others to evaluate your ability to practise what you are supposed to be learning.

And what you are supposed to be learning is to be a Christ-ian. Just as what I am daily learning is to be a Buddhist.

 

And before you tell me that Christ lost his temper with the traders and merchants in the grounds of the temple, I will tell you this:

If in all his 30+ years, that is the only account of his losing his temper, he hasn't done too badly.

We need to strive to do likewise.

 

 

 

With much metta to all.

 

GW

 

 

1. How so? I stated my opinion about my faith and how I really have no care about what others think of my relationship with my religion and my God and its a "callous disregard for the feelings of others"? Seriously doesn't make sense, especially seeing as it has nothing to do with anyone but myself.

 

2. How are human emotions and the reactions to those emotions beneath us? It's called being human. Yes, we can control our emotions but just because you react with emotion to certain stimuli doesn't make you beneath civility.

 

3. No one is perfect or can live perfectly. No one. Not even you, I'm sure.

 

4. I honestly do not care if someone else, besides my Lord and Savior, considers me a good Christian. In my opinion, my relationship with God has absolutely nothing to do with what others think of my life as a Christian or if they think I am a good Christian. I do what I believe is right and what I believe will get me into Heaven. Why should I even bother with what other people think of me? I never have and surely never will.

 

In addition, to everyone who wants to personally attack me again...I started this thread looking for answers to why I, a Christian, am treated badly for believing in God....not looking for more berating. As for the comments I've made, I am HUMAN! I never said I was a perfect Christian. As a human though, when I am personally attacked (as in this thread, repeadily) , I stand up for myself and my beliefs.

 

As far as the Bible showing that Jesus lost his temper, the Bible does not have a day to day account of Jesus' life. Therefore, no one knows for sure that Jesus only got mad one time. Seeing as none of the posters here were actually living during that time, you cannot prove anything to me otherwise. Again, that's the "I don't care what you think of me or my opinions" thing coming out again.

[Haloandhorns85]

Being a Christian doesn't mean we don't get pissed off and say what we think. We are still human and our emotions are still a part of us. Even Jesus got pissed off in the temple. So yes, there is a right way to respond to things(the same as everyone else)but to assume as Christians that we have to push all our emotions down in order to portray an assumed behavior is just wrong.

 

 

For the people that do that, they aren't doing justice to Jesus. We are supposed to lift him up, but remain truthful in the fact that we will and often do make mistakes. So if we are to find a problem with Christians, let's find something else other than they are human.

 

Very well said.

I just thought this was worth repeating at this point in this thread.

[Geishawhelk]

1. How so? I stated my opinion about my faith and how I really have no care about what others think of my relationship with my religion and my God and its a "callous disregard for the feelings of others"? Seriously doesn't make sense, especially seeing as it has nothing to do with anyone but myself.

If you had a relationship with no-one but yourself, this would make a lot of sense. But you not only interact with others, you are interdependent. We all are. Whether we like it or not, we are all dependent one on the other. so is it not better to develop a loving Compassionate and caring attitude towards others, instead of a bristling hostility?

 

2. How are human emotions and the reactions to those emotions beneath us? It's called being human. Yes, we can control our emotions but just because you react with emotion to certain stimuli doesn't make you beneath civility.

 

Read my post to you again:

It is beneath us, as civilised and serious practitioners to pass those emotions on to others, when what we should be doing is feeling the experience and working to transcend such basic states.

 

Being a christian - or a Buddhist - or follower of any devotional practise, means exactly that. Practice. We strive to eliminate Sin, or defilement, and to act in a Christian or compassionate nature. Not caring what other people think, and being rsponsive in an aggressive and hostile manner, is hardly walking the talk, is it?

 

3. No one is perfect or can live perfectly. No one. Not even you, I'm sure.

Never said we could. But there's no harm in doing our best. better than making no effort at all, isn't it...?

 

4. I honestly do not care if someone else, besides my Lord and Savior, considers me a good Christian. In my opinion, my relationship with God has absolutely nothing to do with what others think of my life as a Christian or if they think I am a good Christian. I do what I believe is right and what I believe will get me into Heaven. Why should I even bother with what other people think of me? I never have and surely never will.

 

"Do unto others as you would have them do to you". Luke 6:31

 

Truly I say to you, Inasmuch as you have done it to one of the least of these my brothers, you have done it to me." Matthew 25:40

 

"And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.

And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God." Mark 12. 28-34

 

You may not bother what others think of you - But if you are as good a Christian as you purport to be, you will know then, that God cares. quite a lot.

 

Need I go on?

 

 

In addition, to everyone who wants to personally attack me again...I started this thread looking for answers to why I, a Christian, am treated badly for believing in God....not looking for more berating. As for the comments I've made, I am HUMAN! I never said I was a perfect Christian. As a human though, when I am personally attacked (as in this thread, repeadily) , I stand up for myself and my beliefs.

And as I indicated, it is this very hostile attitude that you manifest, which gives you ample answer.

I am Buddhist.

I would never dream of 'speaking' to others in such a manner, in discussion regarding faith, belief or religion.

Ask anyone here, whether I have ever resorted to such measures, even when personally attacked.

If I can do it - Under my own steam, as it were, without a God to guide me - then surely, it might be something you could try?

 

As far as the Bible showing that Jesus lost his temper, the Bible does not have a day to day account of Jesus' life. Therefore, no one knows for sure that Jesus only got mad one time. Seeing as none of the posters here were actually living during that time, you cannot prove anything to me otherwise. Again, that's the "I don't care what you think of me or my opinions" thing coming out again.

 

Oooooh... be careful... you're leaving yourself wide open here......

[Haloandhorns85]

If you had a relationship with no-one but yourself, this would make a lot of sense. But you not only interact with others, you are interdependent. We all are. Whether we like it or not, we are all dependent one on the other. so is it not better to develop a loving Compassionate and caring attitude towards others, instead of a bristling hostility?

 

 

 

Read my post to you again:

It is beneath us, as civilised and serious practitioners to pass those emotions on to others, when what we should be doing is feeling the experience and working to transcend such basic states.

 

Being a christian - or a Buddhist - or follower of any devotional practise, means exactly that. Practice. We strive to eliminate Sin, or defilement, and to act in a Christian or compassionate nature. Not caring what other people think, and being rsponsive in an aggressive and hostile manner, is hardly walking the talk, is it?

 

Never said we could. But there's no harm in doing our best. better than making no effort at all, isn't it...?

 

 

 

"Do unto others as you would have them do to you". Luke 6:31

 

Truly I say to you, Inasmuch as you have done it to one of the least of these my brothers, you have done it to me." Matthew 25:40

 

"And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.

And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God." Mark 12. 28-34

 

You may not bother what others think of you - But if you are as good a Christian as you purport to be, you will know then, that God cares. quite a lot.

 

Need I go on?

 

 

 

And as I indicated, it is this very hostile attitude that you manifest, which gives you ample answer.

I am Buddhist.

I would never dream of 'speaking' to others in such a manner, in discussion regarding faith, belief or religion.

Ask anyone here, whether I have ever resorted to such measures, even when personally attacked.

If I can do it - Under my own steam, as it were, without a God to guide me - then surely, it might be something you could try?

 

 

 

Oooooh... be careful... you're leaving yourself wide open here......

 

 

First, i did not write my response with hostility in mind. I was to the point and blunt. There is no sin there. I am an opinionated person with strong beliefs. That is my personality and the way I was raised. That is the way I speak. And if you are so great...then why the taunting attitude? And why the attack on who I am? As you taunt my claim to be Christain with Bible verses and sarcasism that you claim to be above, why even respond if you are such a faithful follower of Buddism? BTW, just because I don't care what non-believers think of my faith in my God doesn't mean that I am committing a sin. That has nothing to do with "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these." I don't care if someone else doesn't worship my God, I give them respect as a person. That's what I expect in return. Again...that's why I started this thread. Yes, as a Christian I'm supposed to try to convert those non-believers, but I think everyone has their own purpose in God's plan. I think God has a different plan for me. That's just my belief.

You do not know me. You have made assumptions on who I am as a person and how I follow my faith based on a couple posts in an internet forum. Obvious, as you take my responses as "bristling hostility". I am not responding to you anymore. Take your above-everyone attitude with someone else, please.

[Geishawhelk]

Fine.

carry on this way if you wish.

I have not resorted to sarcasm, rudeness or ridicule of your faith. And where was I taunting you, exactly?

 

just because I don't care what non-believers think of my faith in my God doesn't mean that I am committing a sin.

 

Well...It does actually. Because you are in fact breaking God's Commandment, aren't you? And I understand - Given that I was an active and involved member of the Church for over 40 years - that breaking God's Commandment IS a sin.

If I am wrong, please point it out to me.

 

The reason, I suspect, that you are not responding to me any more, is because you are leaving yourself precious little room for manoevre.

You ARE hostile, and being blunt and to the point is not necessary.

I have managed to avoid it, so perhaps it isn't that difficult.....

I feel sad that the only manner you feel you can respond is in this way.

And you're right, I don't know you.

I can only respond to you according to what I see infront of me.

And you sound neither happy, nor at Peace.

I truly wish you those, and a glad fulfilment of your Religious vocation.

[Haloandhorns85]

Fine.

carry on this way if you wish.

I have not resorted to sarcasm, rudeness or ridicule of your faith. And where was I taunting you, exactly?

 

 

 

Well...It does actually. Because you are in fact breaking God's Commandment, aren't you? And I understand - Given that I was an active and involved member of the Church for over 40 years - that breaking God's Commandment IS a sin.

If I am wrong, please point it out to me.

 

The reason, I suspect, that you are not responding to me any more, is because you are leaving yourself precious little room for manoevre.

You ARE hostile, and being blunt and to the point is not necessary.

I have managed to avoid it, so perhaps it isn't that difficult.....

I feel sad that the only manner you feel you can respond is in this way.

And you're right, I don't know you.

I can only respond to you according to what I see infront of me.

And you sound neither happy, nor at Peace.

I truly wish you those, and a glad fulfilment of your Religious vocation.

 

 

Your whole response is somewhat taunting. Especially your little remark at the end of your last post. Def. of taunt: a sarcastic, biting remark. Just as I don't see the hostility in my responses, I can see you don't see your taunting and sarcasm. And tell me, my dear...which Commandment am I breaking? I am looking at my Bible right this minute. Here is what my Bible says in Exodus 20.3-20.17:

 

1. No other gods, worship Him alone.

2. No carved idols.

3. No using the name of God in vain.

4. Observe the Sabbath.

5. Honor thy mother and father.

6. No murder.

7. No adultery.

8. No stealing.

9. No lies.

10. No lusting after your neighbors house, wife, etc.

 

Now which one of those am I breaking with not caring what anyone thinks of my faith and my relationship with God? The fact that you were in the Catholic faith may be why we have differing opinions on the definition of a good Christian. I am not of the Catholic faith therefore we do not have the same teachings. If you would understand that fact, this discussion may go better. Just because you had different teachings and I believe something different does not make me wrong. It is still the same God being worshipped. And thats fine. I'm just taking you as a test of my faith by God. I do not understand where you are taking hostility out of my responses, but that's your opinion, just as I have mine. Being blunt and to the point is not wrong either. Leaves little room for confusion in my opinion. Then again, its my opinion not yours. Your assumption that I am not happy or at peace is way off. Then again, maybe thats the Catholicism or Buddism seeping out again...I do not know. What I do know is, I do not appreciate being accused of being a less-than-stand up Christian when you obviously have no room to talk, seeing as you are not even of this faith anymore. In addition, when you accuse me of this...you don't even have the right information to back up your accusation. Unless there are a different set of Commandments for the Catholics, of course, then I could understand. But as my devoted Catholic cousin has just told me..the Ten Commadments are the same whether you are Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, etc. Besides, the Commandments were sent so we would know what sin is. That was befoe Jesus Christ was born. He died for my sins so me breaking a Commandment, if I really am like you say, does not make me a bad Christian. It makes me a sinner just like Jesus said I am. Everybody breaks the Ten Commandments. The only person that hasn't is Jesus. My relationship with God is a personal relationship. When Judgement Day comes, I alone will be there in front of God. Not everyone else that has their say about me and my faith. I will answer to Him alone. I don't have to answer you. That is what I mean when I say I don't care what others say regarding my personal relationship with my Lord, My Savior. It is a personal relationship that has nothing to do with you, with my friends, with my family...no one but me and God. I alone will be responsible for my sins. I'm not getting to Heaven by the Ten Commandments, I'm getting to Heaven through the blood of Christ.

[Dark-N-Romantic]

Actually there are only two commandments Christians are suppose to follow, which in essence covers the 10...

 

1) Love thy God with all they heart, with all thy mind, with all thy soul, and with all thy strength.

2) Love each other as you love yourself.

 

(Paraphrased from Mark 12:31 & 32)

 

 

DNR

[JamesM]

You do not know me. You have made assumptions on who I am as a person and how I follow my faith based on a couple posts in an internet forum. Obvious, as you take my responses as "bristling hostility". I am not responding to you anymore. Take your above-everyone attitude with someone else, please.

 

First off, everyone here makes assumptions regarding each other based on postings here. It would be hypocritical to accuse someone of not knowing you because of your postings. This is how we all know one another. While you may be a different person than what is being shown by your posts, it is impossible for any of us to know this.

 

Second, if you go back through Geishawhelk's posts on any thread here in Spirituality, I think you will find that she has the most "Christian" attitude of any non-Christian here. And I have to say that many of us (yes, I definitely include myself) Christians fail to be as humble as she is at times. She is an example to me personally. And yes, I know she doesn't believe in a God. However, one cannot accuse her of being above the rest of us. far from it. IMO she has shown herself to be a good example of what I have perceived Buddhism to be.

 

Third, you DO have a responsibility IMO when it comes to being an example. Christians do need to model their beliefs in every activity and though they do every day. We all fail many times...very true. But it DOES matter what non-believers think when it comes to our example. We never do know when a post here, a word IRL, or a deed we do may actually be used to show someone else that it may be worthwhile investigating these claims made in the Bible. On the other hand, our actions that portray the opposite give ample ammunition to a non-believer in justifying their belief that Christians have nothing of value. Even if this is just an internet forum, it is without a doubt a reflection of what you and I profess to believe.

 

H&H, I say this kindly. Some here do probably deserve your righteous indignation, but IMO Geishawhelk is not one of them.

[JamesM]

And tell me, my dear...which Commandment am I breaking? I am looking at my Bible right this minute. Here is what my Bible says in Exodus 20.3-20.17:

 

1. No other gods, worship Him alone.

2. No carved idols.

3. No using the name of God in vain.

4. Observe the Sabbath.

5. Honor thy mother and father.

6. No murder.

7. No adultery.

8. No stealing.

9. No lies.

10. No lusting after your neighbors house, wife, etc.

 

Please turn in your Bible with me to John 13:34. Here is what Jesus tells those who are His followers. This is the KJV Bible.

 

A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

 

Our love is shown to each other by our words and deeds whether it be in real life or on some internet forum.

 

 

I'm not getting to Heaven by the Ten Commandments, I'm getting to Heaven through the blood of Christ.

 

Matt 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

 

We all need to be reminded of this especially when we post on anonymous internet forums. Our words here still speak volumes about what...or rather Whom we profess to represent.

[FleshNBones]

No, they're beating gay people to death and picketing their funerals.

 

Cheers,

D.

Now I remember. There was picketing by anti-war protesters at the funerals of fallen soldiers.

 

There was something so familiar about what you said.

[sb129]

JamesM- hi!

Another one of the believers who I have alot of time for- your posts are always interesting and articulate and never rude or hostile.

 

Some of the quotes from the bible in this thread are how we should ALL try to live our lives, whether we believe or not.

Love and respect for all others is paramount to a harmonious society, regardless of what each individual believes.

 

Unfortunately, there are individuals on BOTH sides of the fence who let each side down, and perhaps they are the ones that you are alluding to H&H?