Why MM Stay

[NoIDidn't]

What was so bad about what he posted? I don't get it.

[OWoman]

Or perhaps the strain exerted on MM's marriage, brought on by the intrusion of an aggressive affair, caused such tension in the household that MM found it easier to be a wimp and leave rather than face his consequences and live up to the commitments he made when he exchanged vows and said "I do"! Maybe his daddy's sperm got weak when he planted his seed for the proof is in the pudding when it comes to how this "Chicken Little" reacted when the pressure was on!

 

Peli your argument defies logic! Wimps tend to follow the line of least resistance and go with inertia rather than face the massive upheaval of bringing about significant change. If the MM was truly a wimp he'd have stayed put on that fence and when he was knocked off, he'd have lain there in the mud.

 

Leaving a M - particularly where a MM is invested in his kids and hasn't checked out entirely - is a very traumatic experience, and certainly not one for wimps.

 

Staying, on the other hand, requires no balls at all. Staying and making a go of the M, leaving the A and really working on the M is something else, but the mere act of staying requires nothing more than inertia. It's simply more of the same. It really is the line of least resistance because it just happens, without any action needing to be taken one way or another. (Unless, of course, the BW kicks the MM out after DDay, or sets some boundaries that he has to abide by, in which case there's a real choice to be made one way or another. But that wasn't the situation you were referring to, if I'm reading your post correctly.)

[OWoman]

What was so bad about what he posted? I don't get it.

 

It's an assault on logic and rationality, for a start. Like insisting that 1+1=45. The universe wants to implode.

[White Flower]

Peli your argument defies logic! Wimps tend to follow the line of least resistance and go with inertia rather than face the massive upheaval of bringing about significant change. If the MM was truly a wimp he'd have stayed put on that fence and when he was knocked off, he'd have lain there in the mud.

 

Leaving a M - particularly where a MM is invested in his kids and hasn't checked out entirely - is a very traumatic experience, and certainly not one for wimps.

 

Staying, on the other hand, requires no balls at all. Staying and making a go of the M, leaving the A and really working on the M is something else, but the mere act of staying requires nothing more than inertia. It's simply more of the same. It really is the line of least resistance because it just happens, without any action needing to be taken one way or another. (Unless, of course, the BW kicks the MM out after DDay, or sets some boundaries that he has to abide by, in which case there's a real choice to be made one way or another. But that wasn't the situation you were referring to, if I'm reading your post correctly.)

I must agree. It certainly is easier to stay. And if he did, the cheating would have continued because he was so unhappy in that R. I'm glad he did the right thing for himself this time.

[Lyssa]

Leaving a M - particularly where a MM is invested in his kids and hasn't checked out entirely - is a very traumatic experience, and certainly not one for wimps.

 

I agree with this and the rest of your post. Good one - as always, OWoman.

[grogster]

Peli your argument defies logic! Wimps tend to follow the line of least resistance and go with inertia rather than face the massive upheaval of bringing about significant change. If the MM was truly a wimp he'd have stayed put on that fence and when he was knocked off, he'd have lain there in the mud.

 

Leaving a M - particularly where a MM is invested in his kids and hasn't checked out entirely - is a very traumatic experience, and certainly not one for wimps.

 

Staying, on the other hand, requires no balls at all. Staying and making a go of the M, leaving the A and really working on the M is something else, but the mere act of staying requires nothing more than inertia. It's simply more of the same. It really is the line of least resistance because it just happens, without any action needing to be taken one way or another. (Unless, of course, the BW kicks the MM out after DDay, or sets some boundaries that he has to abide by, in which case there's a real choice to be made one way or another. But that wasn't the situation you were referring to, if I'm reading your post correctly.)

 

As someone who divorced, I agree wholeheartedly with OWoman: unhappy wimps stay in dead marriages; unhappy men leave dead marriages.

 

I did not leave because of the MW--my affair was long over. Rather, I left because the marriage was dead, and had been so for the last 5-6 years. Leaving my estranged wife was easy, leaving my kids was Hell. But we all survived.

 

That was almost 4 years ago. Thursday, the family and I celebrated my son's 19th birthday at the old marital home. And later this month I'm going back to the old marital home to keep an eye on things while my ex is in Dublin.

 

Most families don't end, they adapt.

[White Flower]

As someone who divorced, I agree wholeheartedly with OWoman: unhappy wimps stay in dead marriages; unhappy men leave dead marriages.

 

I did not leave because of the MW--my affair was long over. Rather, I left because the marriage was dead, and had been so for the last 5-6 years. Leaving my estranged wife was easy, leaving my kids was Hell. But we all survived.

 

That was almost 4 years ago. Thursday, the family and I celebrated my son's 19th birthday at the old marital home. And later this month I'm going back to the old marital home to keep an eye on things while my ex is in Dublin.

 

Most families don't end, they adapt.

I must say that I admire your courage and strength as well as loyalty to the family after the divorce. One can only hope an ex spouse to be as warm and cooperative as you are. Kudos to you.

[grogster]

Thank-you. It was no sacrifice. I love my children more than anything. Plus, my ex has been civilized, and is a very good person.

 

Because of her decency the great adjustment has been doable.

[Lookingforward]

You're right grogster, only idiots stay in dead M, but then there's no shortage of idiots these days........

[Owl]

I must agree. It certainly is easier to stay. And if he did, the cheating would have continued because he was so unhappy in that R. I'm glad he did the right thing for himself this time.

 

I've not seen the whole thread, just the last page. I'm not filled with all the 'facts' on this, but wanted to post an opinion on this part.

 

I disagree with this somewhat.

 

Having seen the sheer amount of strain and work and effort it takes to recover a marriage from an affair, I can tell you that it sometimes is easier to LEAVE than it is to rebuild/recover.

 

And I've seen a good number of cheaters...men and women both...who left the marriage because they couldn't face what they'd done to their family and their spouse. They couldn't take responsibility for that...and leaving let them avoid taking that responsibility.

 

It takes a LOT of effort to deal with the emotional trauma that's created by the affair. Both on themselves, and on their BS's. And remember...that 'withdrawl' state you hear people talk about is sheer hell for them and for their spouses. Its the first real challenge in recovery, and it happens immediately after NC is established between the OW/OM and the WS.

 

Its often EASIER for them to "give in" to that and either return to the affair or walk out than it is for them to try to rebuild the marriage from the splinters left after the explosion of d-day.

 

I'd amend some of what I've seen posted. Unhappy whimps stay in DEAD marriages. Unhappy whimps also refuse to take responsibility for their actions and attempt to take the best course of action they can for EVERYONE involved (whether that means recovery or divorce). REAL men make the right choice and do take that responsibility and "man up". Again, that could mean divorce...or it could mean TRULY reconciling the marriage.

[OWoman]

I've not seen the whole thread, just the last page. I'm not filled with all the 'facts' on this, but wanted to post an opinion on this part.

 

I disagree with this somewhat.

 

Having seen the sheer amount of strain and work and effort it takes to recover a marriage from an affair, I can tell you that it sometimes is easier to LEAVE than it is to rebuild/recover.

 

Owl the distinction being made was between leaving (effort) and staying (no effort), not between staying (no effort) and rebuilding the M (effort). At the outset that distinction was made (that "staying" did not refer to "rebuilding the M" with all that that involved - which was the end result of a decision, rather than no decision, merely inertia) as The Way of The Wimp would be simply to carry on as before, rather than to face up to the responsibility of action and change, one way or another.

[Owl]

Fair enough.

 

From what I've seen, I've not seen many BS's that accept the "way of the whimp" either tho.

 

Most BS's don't want the "old marriage" anymore than the WS does. Often, the affair ends up being a catalyst for change...aka, recovery.

 

So I personally tend to view "staying" as relatively the same as "recovering"...with the Way of the Whimp as an exception, not the rule.

[grogster]

I was referring to dead, not bad or troubled, marriages.

 

The latter relationships are salvageable; the former, not so much.

[Owl]

Who should make that determination that its a dead marriage, vs a troubled/bad one? What should they base that determination on? How do they get the information that they base it on?

[Lookingforward]

Fair enough.

 

From what I've seen, I've not seen many BS's that accept the "way of the whimp" either tho.

 

Most BS's don't want the "old marriage" anymore than the WS does. Often, the affair ends up being a catalyst for change...aka, recovery.

 

So I personally tend to view "staying" as relatively the same as "recovering"...with the Way of the Whimp as an exception, not the rule.

 

 

Some however do, they just want the status quo returned - they want their M back the 'way it was' which often suited them, if not the straying partner.....

 

You have to admit there are SOME BS that also don't want to put in the effort it takes to truly REPAIR an ailing M....

[Lookingforward]

Who should make that determination that its a dead marriage, vs a troubled/bad one? What should they base that determination on? How do they get the information that they base it on?

 

The people IN the M I would presume........

[grogster]

Who should make that determination that its a dead marriage, vs a troubled/bad one? What should they base that determination on? How do they get the information that they base it on?

 

Not you, as to my marriage.

 

I know where you're going with this, and discussion's impossible. I suspect you believe that virtually all marriages are fixable if the parties simply apply themselves: All it takes is work. That's your belief; however, it's not my experience.

 

Do not presume to dictate how other people should experience their marriages based on your value system. Every marriage is different.

[Dark-N-Romantic]

1) Some realize the grass is NOT greener on the other side and REALLY do want to be with their wives.

 

2) Some do it because the wife isn't strong enough to say no and get packing.

 

3) Why should they leave if they have the best of both worlds?

 

4) They are willing to tough it out for the sake of the children.

 

5) They have no one to turn to should the leave.

 

6) It would cost him too much to get a divorce.

 

7) The wife is willing to work things out.

 

8) The did not want to leave in the first place.

 

9) Their ego would be hurt, especially if they would be seen as the villain.

 

10) Might have an more insidious motive for staying.

 

There are some good reasons for ANY married person to stay if they have strayed and there are some bad. But, this is my belief, if it can be fix, fix it. If it can, do everyone a favor, get divorced and live a happy life.

 

 

DNR

[Owl]

LOL...don't presume to assume about my intent.

 

My intent was to point out that the people in the marriage are often too close to the problems to be able to make that determination by themselves. They often need to work with an UNBIASED third party to make that choice. Which is why good counseling can work wonders in a lot of these situations...

 

The OW/OM clearly aren't reliable sources to make that determination...they've got a "vested interest" in the outcome. And they (typically, though I'll admit not always) only have one side of the story, and the version they hear is deliberately canted even further because of the 'goal' of the WS to have a relationship with the OW/OM.

 

My point was simply that its impossible to make the choice clearly when you're too close and too vested in the problem...and that's the reason why that choice should be made with help from good counseling or from good, NEUTRAL outside parties.

 

My 'value system' wasn't involved in this. Lighten up.

[Cliche]

Most families don't end, they adapt.

This is such a wonderfully insightful statement, and one that doesn't get enough recognition on this board. This board so often slides into an us v. them mentality, when the truth of it all is so much more complicated and bigger than the one individual--us--we make it about. Relationships, families--they're fluid. Even M's that last will not be the same M the entire time. Families adapt. Partners adapt. Lives continue and sometimes not the way we "planned." And that is all okay.

 

Yes, pain happens and that sucks. But that is part of the human condition. Enjoy the happy times and find a way to get through the painful ones until we come out on the other side...whether you're a BS or an OW--whether you get the man or you don't.

[Dark-N-Romantic]

Your right to a point Cliche, marriages do evolve and change as time goes past. But, there are certain foundations that never change and that cements the course of action within the marriage. Those are the vows men and women speak to each other. We are to look back to those vows when certain questions come up with our marriage that isn't obviously answered.

 

The vows are like the laws for whatever land you live in. Yes how the laws are executed and enforced might vary from time to time, but they are the cement of what a person's conduct and consequences of fail conducted is corrected/punished by.

 

And yes, while SOME families do adopt each other in. A lot more than not does than do. And a lot more marriages and families who believe so and so will be an added parent figure fail and leave the children once again without that stability. Affairs and divorces and marital issues affect more than the spouses. If affect EVERYONE and think in their lives. And this is why such issues aren't approached or treated lightly. Why so many have very little sympathy or compassion for those who engage in such behavior because most of us have to deal with those issues in our lives. Either as direct people directly affected (i.e. spouse, child, lover, family member, friend) or indirectly affected (boss, coworker, stranger on the bus, tax payers).

 

Everything is so intertwined in this universe and very few of us see and/or accept our influence within the universe. We live in our own little worlds not realize our worlds impact other worlds which affects the real world.

 

 

DNR

[Cliche]

Your right to a point Cliche, marriages do evolve and change as time goes past. But, there are certain foundations that never change and that cements the course of action within the marriage. Those are the vows men and women speak to each other. We are to look back to those vows when certain questions come up with our marriage that isn't obviously answered.

 

The vows are like the laws for whatever land you live in. Yes how the laws are executed and enforced might vary from time to time, but they are the cement of what a person's conduct and consequences of fail conducted is corrected/punished by.

 

And yes, while SOME families do adopt each other in. A lot more than not does than do. And a lot more marriages and families who believe so and so will be an added parent figure fail and leave the children once again without that stability. Affairs and divorces and marital issues affect more than the spouses. If affect EVERYONE and think in their lives. And this is why such issues aren't approached or treated lightly. Why so many have very little sympathy or compassion for those who engage in such behavior because most of us have to deal with those issues in our lives. Either as direct people directly affected (i.e. spouse, child, lover, family member, friend) or indirectly affected (boss, coworker, stranger on the bus, tax payers).

 

Everything is so intertwined in this universe and very few of us see and/or accept our influence within the universe. We live in our own little worlds not realize our worlds impact other worlds which affects the real world.

 

 

DNR

 

DNR, I totally agree that we are all intertwined in each other's lives. I'm a big believer in the butterfly causing a hurricane theory. But I do not believe that vows or laws are the "cement" to a relationship. I do believe that a whole bunch of intangibles like love, respect, cooperation, compromise, etc. are the "cement" to a relationship. However, if one of those intangible ingrediants are missing, there is not cement, but watery goo. There can be no foundation on watery goo. That's where we disagree, I guess. I don't think truly honest and good relationships can be forced through law or promise.

[grogster]

This is such a wonderfully insightful statement, and one that doesn't get enough recognition on this board. This board so often slides into an us v. them mentality, when the truth of it all is so much more complicated and bigger than the one individual--us--we make it about. Relationships, families--they're fluid. Even M's that last will not be the same M the entire time. Families adapt. Partners adapt. Lives continue and sometimes not the way we "planned." And that is all okay.

 

Yes, pain happens and that sucks. But that is part of the human condition. Enjoy the happy times and find a way to get through the painful ones until we come out on the other side...whether you're a BS or an OW--whether you get the man or you don't.

 

 

Thanks, Cliche. Public message boards tend to bring out ideological extremes. It's all about opinion--the stronger the better.

 

Life, however, is lived--not opined. Experience often is not sexy, or perfectly reflective of our beliefs, whether strongly held or not. Life trumps text. My family and I continue.

 

I simply no longer live at home and sleep with my wife. Our split household arrangement has given our adult children stability, routine and a center of emotional gravity. Is it a perfect arrangement? Of course not. But neither is remaining married after one has completely checked-out of the marriage.

 

Families are resilient: Much more so than our strongly held message board beliefs allow.

[Dark-N-Romantic]

DNR, I totally agree that we are all intertwined in each other's lives. I'm a big believer in the butterfly causing a hurricane theory. But I do not believe that vows or laws are the "cement" to a relationship. I do believe that a whole bunch of intangibles like love, respect, cooperation, compromise, etc. are the "cement" to a relationship. However, if one of those intangible ingrediants are missing, there is not cement, but watery goo. There can be no foundation on watery goo. That's where we disagree, I guess. I don't think truly honest and good relationships can be forced through law or promise.

 

I agree with you on the intangibles, but that is why they are called intangibles. They have no set form. They are very malleable. They are formed according to the feelings of the individual. But, now what happens when an individual's intangibles don't mesh? What common measurement or tool can we use to find equality or an equal ground. This is where things like laws and vows come in at.

 

Example we as a nation or a people on a whole agree that sex with minors (whatever age we consider minors) is wrong and someone needs to go to jail for it. But what about those who say no and that it is okay and do pursue these relationships with minors? The laws are what solidify rather or not this is right and what should happen when someone over step these cemented boundaries.

 

When a two people get married, each one has their own ideas of how they will contribute to the relationship and what they expect from it, yes they may have hatched things out, but the fact is there are still a lot of things that slip in without notice. If we did not have the vows to give foundation and frame to the intangibles, we have issues like lopsided expressions of love and fidelity. But it is the vows that we look back and use to judge what we are doing in this relationship.

 

So, yes, the laws and vows so many hold dear to (even those who don't use the same laws and vows have something tangible to control the intangible) are the solidifiers of all things. It works through out ALL of existence. Laws of gravity, law of relativity, guidelines of working with numbers and forming understandable communications.

 

 

DNR

[White Flower]

Thanks, Cliche. Public message boards tend to bring out ideological extremes. It's all about opinion--the stronger the better.

 

Life, however, is lived--not opined. Experience often is not sexy, or perfectly reflective of our beliefs, whether strongly held or not. Life trumps text. My family and I continue.

 

I simply no longer live at home and sleep with my wife. Our split household arrangement has given our adult children stability, routine and a center of emotional gravity. Is it a perfect arrangement? Of course not. But neither is remaining married after one has completely checked-out of the marriage.

 

Families are resilient: Much more so than our strongly held message board beliefs allow.

I like your views, grogster.

 

And I wish my STBeXH felt the same way you did. I don't think he'll adapt or be nice in any way. Too bad for him and the kids. I will be fine, however. But we could have all been friends, or a family as you say. We make life that which we want it to be. Sounds like you've made yours a nice one for the kid's and ex's sake. Kudos to you.