How to start from scratch in 12 mo separation ?

[TrustInYourself]

I am learning that I do not "need" my wife... But I do "want" her in my life - well not the way she is now, but the way she was for the 6 years prior to this last year.

 

And maybe it is not my wife per se... I want the family, things happening around the house - and not me trying to think of something to do to occupy myself.

 

Before I seemed to busy that I could not find the time to relax, spend time doing fun things with the family, and do the things I enjoy. Now I have too much time that I can't think of what to do to enjoy myself - have no will to enjoy myself - do not remember what I enjoy doing.

 

Strange twist of thought patterns.

 

Your wife could be angry because she sees changes now. Why didn't they happen sooner. I know my wife was angry with my changes because they happened so quickly. She kept asking me why after she had already stopped feeling like she loved me.

 

Rediscover yourself. Until you know what makes you happy and what you enjoy, then you won't be able to bring anything to the table as a couple.

[SingleDad]

pelicanpreacher - My wife had always claimed that she was spiritual, though neither she or I went to church after we were married. We were trying to join a devote church as members so we could be married there - but to do so the church requires that you turn you heart over to Jesus... I was not there... my wife mocked me with my comment that "Jesus was a good man". Then mocked me that I was turning to the church for spiritual guidance during the divorce and with the DivorceCare classes. She knows I attend regularly now and have asked if she would like to go several times - she declines... But I do think she sees me growing spiritually.

 

I honestly do not think she has a boyfriend - my daughter has not mentioned any other name. Maybe she had an affair. I know she thinks the grass is greener and there is someone else out there for her... but I seriously do not think she is ready for another committment.

 

I would like to take cooking classes - usually those are summer community Ed classes - but are ending with school to start soon. But I do have other activities. I went for a run and workout, then a whirlpool bath. I was feeling better.

[Maladjusted]

One thing that was hard for me to hear but helped me when I was going through what I was going through was something my counselor said to me, and I think it may be true for you as well.

 

He told me "The woman you married is gone. The woman you are married to now is a stranger".

 

How right he was. It helped me see that the person I was fighting so hard for wasn't the person I thought I was fighting for. Only when she knew I was done did she realize what she had with me.

 

I hope this helps.

[SingleDad]

Your wife could be angry because she sees changes now. Why didn't they happen sooner. I know my wife was angry with my changes because they happened so quickly. She kept asking me why after she had already stopped feeling like she loved me.

 

Rediscover yourself. Until you know what makes you happy and what you enjoy, then you won't be able to bring anything to the table as a couple.

 

TIY - that may be exactly it. My wife left me for no other reason than I did not express or show her my love as much or the way she wanted, especially after our daughter was born.

 

NC or LC will not win my wife over. She needs to feel loved - even though her attitude now is that it is over and she has no feelings for me.

 

I hate having limited communication.

 

I just called her to switch a couple of days with her. She asked if there was anything else. and I said "yes... I love you... I miss you... and I think about you a lot". She responded that she has to get back to work. I was not demanding or clingy or weak. I just miss her.

 

As much as she does not want to hear it consciously - out of guilt, lack of love, not ready, OM, etc. I truly believe subsconsciously she craves to be loved (by me). I mean that is her reason for the divorce - she was not feeling loved. I want her to know that I am being true to her and I want her back in my life -

 

The part A along with most of the the 180 rules, avoid love busters, and start making deposits to the love bank. The "I do not need you, but I want you" route. Love without demands, need or clingyness.

 

With my wife, I truly believe that distance and just strengthening myself are not enough (I am working on that). Yet an "I don't care anymore" attitude about her would just re-affirm to her that she made the right decision - that attitude would just make it easier in her mind. the easy way out.

 

I think she needs to realize that I truly love her for who she is, unconditionally. Yet not out of weakness or loneliness. Pure love, despite all.

 

Yes it is tough the express pure love when she overtly doesn't want to hear it on the surface (while subconsciously craving it)... and a fine line between showing her my love without her seeing it as weak or clingy. And also agree with her - do what she wants (per Dr. Harley's recommendation) - and no arguing.

 

Any suggestions along this way of thinking would be appreciated.

[Owl]

I have a suggestion, but you're not going to like it.

 

Telling your wife that you love her right now is driving her away...its won't bring her back.

 

What you're doing is making her feel guilty. She's feeling guilty because she can't say it back right now with feeling. Either because of the distance between you or because she's in love with someone else... But, everytime you say "I love you and want us"...you're hurting her.

 

You're driving a wedge.

 

 

Both LJ and I have tried to tell you this in the past.

 

You need to STOP that for now. It won't win her back. She doesn't want to hear it, and everytime you MAKE her hear it, you're just hurting her and making her angry. ENOUGH already.

 

SHOW her, with small actions. Not gifts, not flowers, not telling her. And...STOP ASKING/EXPECTING HER TO SAY IT TO YOU.

 

You don't give a gift with the intent of recieving something back.

 

You SHOW her the kind of man she wants in your day to day interaction with her. When you pick up your daughter, look and smell your best. Be polite and kind...but don't force her into the "I love you" game that you've been playing. Heck...keep it short...make it seem like you're rushing off to something.

 

That will pique her interest and curiousity. It'll cause her to wonder about you, think about you. Think about how good you looked and smelled, and what you were going to go do.

 

That's the ghist of the "180 plan" that LJ mentioned. When you step back from her, she'll try to fill the gap by getting closer to you.

 

Everytime you step up to her (say I LOVE YOU, or all the little things like that), she feels forced to step AWAY from you.

 

Can you see what's going on here?

[SingleDad]

Owl - I respect you and LadyJane and all of you advice. Every thing you say is true and dead on accurate.

 

Some issues complicate the pure Plan A, B and 180.

 

I do not see my wife everyday like that. Daughter's pick-up and drop-off is at daycare. There is no way for her to see me being strong. We could go a month without visual contact. There is no day to day contact with which I can subtly pique her curiosity.

 

Yes she may be feeling guilty - I do not mean to drive a wedge between us. I have stopped telling her that I love her everytime we talk like I did at the height of our anguish... I do not press it until she feels uncomfortable. Now I tell her only infrequently as a gentle reminder.

 

I think LadyJane did say that NC is not "the heart grows fonder", but instead "Out of sight, Out of mind".

 

My wife has her space, she has her freedom, I have paid out the marital settelement- so much freedom that If I do not get my foot in there - she will forget about me. She has got to second guess herself... she will not do that with no contact... she will only do that I she truly believes I love her for who she is... and not out of desperation or loneliness

 

She unconsciously wants to be loved... but there is so little contact, I do not think the Plan B would ever work. And aspects of plan 180 will not work either.

 

I am convinced that if I act like I have moved on in my life and I don't want her - she will be convinced that she made the right decision. She would not want to be with a man who does not love her.

 

I need my Wife to feel my love without overt gifts, trying to hard, pushing my wants on her - forcing her away from me.

 

In her mind she tried to express her love to me over and over and over again during our marriage and got little in return... Part of me thinks this a payback - now I have to show her over and over and over again my love for her to win her back... but again as you said without pushing her, confronting her, making her feel angry or guilty. Just subtle love with some spoken words of love and appreciation - and no expectation or pressure for anything in return.

[Owl]

I understand how hard the "plan A" part is for you. When she's not right there, its really hard to show her that you love her.

 

So you make the most out of the opportunities you do have.

 

Any opportunity to do something for her (not always from a money perspective, but from a help perspective) is something you should jump on.

 

Any interaction between you should be viewed as a chance to let her see what she's giving up. Always well-dressed, well-mannered, clean shaven...you know what she likes. Make sure that you're like that EVERY TIME you meet with her.

 

She may be subconsciously wanting you to love her. Then woo her subconscious mind...but not her conscious one. Don't TELL her I love you anymore. Or if you do...not more than once per week, tops! That's targetting the thinking part of her brain. You're not going to win there right now.

 

Telling her she looks nice, etc...that's all good. But aviod I LOVE YOU, avoid any talks about your relationship or lack of one or desire for a future one...

 

Get the idea?

[SingleDad]

Owl - that I can do...

 

I am just tired of sitting back and not doing anything proactive toward her.

[TrustInYourself]

Every time you say I love you and miss you, it reinforces one thing in her mind. How she feels and that's the opposite. She doesn't love you and doesn't miss you.

 

The sooner you accept that, the better.

 

If you want her to feel love and to miss you, stop trying to control and elicit a response so you feel better and start working on making her feel better.

 

Also, why would you say that? Do you think that she has any doubt in your love? If so, she doesn't now and there should be no need to say it anymore. This isn't about how you feel, rather, how she feels.

 

Create some consequences for her actions. Right now, you're scared and she holds all the cards. You are her bitch. That needs to change.

 

What are your thoughts?

[SingleDad]

TIY - I agree that every time I tell her I love her - she retreats... So I will keep it to a minimum.

 

But I do think she needs to know I love her.

 

I think she fell out of love with me because I was not the warm fuzzy kind of love with her - which she wanted. She wanted to hear me say I love her, she wanted to be held more... she wanted more of how we were like when we were dating and early marriage.

 

I know I cannot control her... I know she does not want to be pushed... But somehow I think she needs to know I love her...

 

I think she convinced herself I did not love her when she started the divorce.... She said a couple months ago "I cannot live with someone who doe snot love me - that is not the life I want our daughter to grow up in... she needs to see her parents love each other."

 

And yes - she is in control - she has the ball(s). I either do it her way or she will try to find someone who will.

 

Eventually she could warm back up to me when she is in complete control and she knows how much I love her for who she is.

[Owl]

SD, I don't advocate that you "sit there and do nothing".

 

Not at all...I've been trying to give you advice to be proactive this whole time.

 

1. Make changes to improve yourself as a husband.

2. Make changes to make yourself a more attractive person to her.

3. Seek opportunities to SHOW her your love for her.

4. Drop the relationship talk. No pressure on her in this area.

5. Start improving your own life. If you are less stressed, happier, more relaxed, it will show. And that is FAR more attractive than someone who's stressed, haggard, exhausted, and depressed.

6. Delve into the REAL reasons behind her actions (I STILL suspect another man).

7. Show an improved ability to communicate with her by LISTENING to what she says and taking appropriate actions where it doesn't hurt your cause of rebuilding your marriage. Demonstrate to her that you're PAYING ATTENTION.

 

Make sense to you? This is HARDLY inactivity. Its a very focused ACTIVE plan of improvement and working towards your goals.

[nowhereman82]

Continuing on what Owl just said....time sitting doing nothing is a waste. You want to be one step ahead if this doesn't work out. So work on yourself for you...and as an afterthought for her.

 

Also don't change things about you that are you...bad habits are one thing but if she didn't for example like the way you laughed...don't change that, haha

[TrustInYourself]

There is no reason to tell her you love her unless you are trying to reinforce the fact that she doesn't love you.

 

Keep doing it and you'll keep having the same reaction. You're actually reinforcing her behavior. You're validating the separation. You're losing your wife. If telling your wife how you feel is more important than getting her back, keep on doing it.

 

Yeah, it sounds counterproductive, but we're not in loving marriages. You can't add to her love account unless the bank is open.

[TrustInYourself]

SingleDad, I hope everything is going well for you. Thinking of you and wishing you well.

[SingleDad]

TIY - I am hanging in there.

 

I sent my W an anniversary card that was pre-printed "Happy Anniversay" and somthing like "It's not the past, its not the future, but what is inside thats important" and signed "Love, ---"

 

W must have gotten it - today when W picked up our daughter - W was abrupt and snippy - made me feel all cold and alone inside... of course that always happens when I return my daughter. Now I do not see my D until Wed. then next weekend - then W takes D for a week vacation - that will be a long stretch.

 

I'm at Mom's doing laundry and picked up more books to read... too lonely to be home. I'm in New York City Sun pm till Tues pm for a seminar with my boss - that will be a blast - not!

 

Oh - I am violating a 180 rule and ordered a bouquet of mixed flowers for W for Anniversary to be delivered on Aug 21... Was advised not to send a dozen roses (apparently would have said too much and would just anger her more). W will prpbably be mad at me for a few days - but I truly think that in a couple of weeks or months - It would have been better to have sent it than W thinking I forgot or don't care. She always complained about not getting flowers enough while married.

[TrustInYourself]

TIY - I am hanging in there.

 

I sent my W an anniversary card that was pre-printed "Happy Anniversay" and somthing like "It's not the past, its not the future, but what is inside thats important" and signed "Love, ---"

 

W must have gotten it - today when W picked up our daughter - W was abrupt and snippy - made me feel all cold and alone inside... of course that always happens when I return my daughter. Now I do not see my D until Wed. then next weekend - then W takes D for a week vacation - that will be a long stretch.

 

I'm at Mom's doing laundry and picked up more books to read... too lonely to be home. I'm in New York City Sun pm till Tues pm for a seminar with my boss - that will be a blast - not!

 

Oh - I am violating a 180 rule and ordered a bouquet of mixed flowers for W for Anniversary to be delivered on Aug 21... Was advised not to send a dozen roses (apparently would have said too much and would just anger her more). W will prpbably be mad at me for a few days - but I truly think that in a couple of weeks or months - It would have been better to have sent it than W thinking I forgot or don't care. She always complained about not getting flowers enough while married.

 

Do you want to win her back? Or do you want to do what isnt working? Do you want to keep being blind? Or do you want to see truth?

 

Ask yourself those questions.

 

We are all the same. The names change, the places, but the human experience is all similar.

 

Your wife wanted flowers when she wanted you and your marriage. You are still reinforcing the fact that you dont care about what she thinks or feels. Its the same thing as when you were married. You didnt know or see what she wanted and you probably just plowed through what she had to say. Think about that. What is she telling you now? Do you love your wife more than your needs?

 

Point blank this has nothing to do with your family or daughter. This is about the relationship between you and your wife. That should be the focus if you want your family back.

[SingleDad]

TIY - She is telling me it is over and she is living her own life. And Yes I am not getting in the way of that - She lives in her own house, I do not ask her personal questions, I do not argue with her.

 

But I also don't get it. If I forget about her myself - then it surely will be over.

 

All she wants is to be loved. And I did not give enough of that to her before.

 

I think my situation is far more dire than yours ever was. Your W was conflicted and she had the "cake and eat it too" By you symbolically moving on - your W saw that she couldn't have both and is coming back to you.

 

My wife decided we are over in January. She does not want anything to do with me, except parent our daughter separately.

 

If I do nothing - it is over. I do not think she will miraculously find something about me she misses and want back in my life. She will not.

 

If I beg and plead and clingy - I am weak and a nuicance and she will run away as fast as possible.

 

But if I live my own life independently - Yet if I am there for her when she wants and needs me, and she sees me being a great father to our daughter, and she knows I love her and care for her more than she thinks I did when we were married (which is her reason for leaving), and if she finds being on her own not the bed of roses she though it would be - then maybe we could try to start over.

[TrustInYourself]

TIY - She is telling me it is over and she is living her own life. And Yes I am not getting in the way of that - She lives in her own house, I do not ask her personal questions, I do not argue with her.

 

But I also don't get it. If I forget about her myself - then it surely will be over.

 

All she wants is to be loved. And I did not give enough of that to her before.

 

I think my situation is far more dire than yours ever was. Your W was conflicted and she had the "cake and eat it too" By you symbolically moving on - your W saw that she couldn't have both and is coming back to you.

 

My wife decided we are over in January. She does not want anything to do with me, except parent our daughter separately.

 

If I do nothing - it is over. I do not think she will miraculously find something about me she misses and want back in my life. She will not.

 

If I beg and plead and clingy - I am weak and a nuicance and she will run away as fast as possible.

 

But if I live my own life independently - Yet if I am there for her when she wants and needs me, and she sees me being a great father to our daughter, and she knows I love her and care for her more than she thinks I did when we were married (which is her reason for leaving), and if she finds being on her own not the bed of roses she though it would be - then maybe we could try to start over.

 

You could be right. I'm just concerned for you. Not your wife. Someone has to be concerned about your life and feelings.

[TrustInYourself]

I'd also like to add. Your wife got everything she wanted and needed from you when you both wrote up the separation.

 

No consequence, no remorse, no impetus for change. You want it to get better? It's got to get worse first, my man.

 

Sometimes you have to put your emotions away and play it rationally like a ruthless warrior for the sake of your own happiness.

 

In any case, I'm pulling for you no matter what. My rough talk and advice comes from the heart. That goes for anyone in a similar situation like ours.

 

Take care and I hope you get out and actually interact with some humans or do something at home you enjoy.

[pelicanpreacher]

Do you want to win her back? Or do you want to do what isnt working? Do you want to keep being blind? Or do you want to see truth?

 

Ask yourself those questions.

 

We are all the same. The names change, the places, but the human experience is all similar.

 

Your wife wanted flowers when she wanted you and your marriage. You are still reinforcing the fact that you dont care about what she thinks or feels. Its the same thing as when you were married. You didnt know or see what she wanted and you probably just plowed through what she had to say. Think about that. What is she telling you now? Do you love your wife more than your needs?

 

Point blank this has nothing to do with your family or daughter. This is about the relationship between you and your wife. That should be the focus if you want your family back.

 

SD you need to reread this post very carefully. Your situation is dire and may not be fixable unless you get your mind around the real issues confronting your marriage.

 

The way I see it is that you've lost your gravitational hold on your wife because your attractive forces have waned while your repulsive forces have increased during the duration of your marriage and now act to nullify each other or even further act to repell her being. She is has left you and is happily spinning in her own orbit so your entreaties of "I love you" and sending flowers are now perceived as cliched platitudes and dismissed without a second thought for they have the opposite effect on increasing her yearning for you.

 

Let's first take a look at your attractive features versus your repulsive features to see what you need to work on to re-energize the gravitational field of your being. I see from your profile that you are a decent looking guy and, according to your posts, you've remained fit through excercise and good diet. You've also shown intelligence and a strong work ethic by obtaining a college degree, establishing a career in a well paying job, and starting a beneficial charity to educate teens (I'm assuming) in the useful skill of building computers. Last but not least, you've shown yourself to be a loving father with a seeming interest in spiritual growth and a propensity for living a traditional family life. On paper you seem like a pretty good catch.

 

Now let's talk about your repulsive features that may be at the core for why your marriage has imploded. I've seen in your posts time and again a very manipulative side to your personality. You attempted to use it in an overt manner when discussing childrearing with your wife and she reacted with extreme hostility to neutralize it. You've also invited your wife to attend church activities with you but your wife perceives that as another act of manipulation, though subtle, on your part to incorporate others into your scheme to pursuade her to return to the marriage but she saw through that scheme and declined your offer. Last but not least, you've shown a propensity to childishly sulk in an attempt evoke pity in a few of your posts that seems to be used as a way of manipulating the board into empathizing more with you than your wife and, even after being called on it, you resorted to it time and again in subsequent posts which leads me to believe that you've often used this tactic to coerce your wife into doing what you want. She has become wary of you because she has experienced so many tacts of your manipulation throughout this marriage that she can't take anything from you at face value for you always seem to have an agenda behind your actions.

 

You also constantly show through your postings a very headstrong demeanor that not only allows you to ignore the perceptions of your wife but also gives you the inclination to project your feelings upon her of yearning to return to you which are contrary to her own position on the matter. You're only now beginning to reflect on what your wife wanted from you in this marriage and I suspect that you only gave your her what she needed when you felt she needed it throughout your relationship. You've been given advice from some very knowledgable posters on this forum but continue to reject counsel in deference to your own way of thinking so it's not difficult to extrapolate this dysfunction as a general character flaw to your core being.

 

Combine your manipulative demeanor with your headstrong manner and you've concocted the perfect formula for exasperating your wife and killing her feelings for you. To fix your marriage you will have to be mindful of these two destructive flaws and force yourself to break these tendencies whenever you're inclined to indulge them. You may need to resort to therapy to achieve this for it seems fairly ingrained into your nature by now. You can't help how you feel but you must control your actions and emotions so that you don't increase the emotional distance that has continued to grow throughout your separation.

 

If you take this advice and actively work at minimizing, if not completely eliminating, your negative qualities while pushing yourself to expand your horizons by pursuing other passions that can be mutually enjoyed like cooking, art, sports, or dancing that add to the attractiveness of your being then you'll re-energize your gravitational field and increase the chances of recapturing your wife within your orbit over time.

 

As for how you interact with your wife during your metamorphisis I'd advice that you do as one poster suggested to be your wife's biggest cheerleader and truly support her by embracing her current decision to move to another home for it may have been the right one to make at this time in her life based upon how negatively she feels about you and the marriage right now. If she gets snippy while you're dropping your daughter off give her your best smile, say "I understand", and walk back to the life you're currently creating filling with activities you enjoy that restore purpose to your day. Do not attempt to engage her with conversations about your feelings, her feelings, or your marriage in any way whatsoever for her walls are up and she can't hear you. Only contact her (sparingly) if you have a genuine question regarding childrearing. If she brings up why she left then agree with her stance on leaving because you now understand how this mess may have been caused and not because of a hidden agenda to manipulate her back into the marriage. If she asks you why you aren't available for taking your daughter on days she is suppose to have her you may tell her of any classes that you're taking in your selfimprovement efforts. If she shows curiosity then you can disclose to her how its going, what you're doing, the people you've met, or how much fun you're having but do not attempt to invite her to partake in your new life unless she asks you to.

 

If this marriage is to survive then she must come to you instead of the other way around. If you continually attempt to pry or wrench her open through flowers, sappy cards, calls of "I love you", and unannounced visits then you may as well sign your divorce papers now for you have remained your own worst enemy!

[TrustInYourself]

Haha, pretty informative post. Way to go pelican. Breaking it down. This may sound crazy, but if you would have sent her divorce papers rather than flowers, you would have seen the woman you married. That's my guess.

 

I have homework for you SD.

 

1. Go out and do something social with other humans.

2. Show complete indifference to your wife. Complete indifference.

3. Get out of your comfort zone. Do something you have never done, but always wanted to do.

 

Go forth, young one.

[pelicanpreacher]

Singledad, my post was not intended to belittle you in any way. I needed to point out that for some reason you built a wall up in your marriage made from bricks of manipulation to shield yourself while dealing with your wife in your marriage. Maybe you perceived her as being overbearing at times (especially on issues concerning childrearing) and this was your way of defeating that behavior. Your wife reacted by building a wall of indifference to counter your manipulative tactics which has created an adversarial atmosphere instead of a loving partnership. If your marriage is to survive then you will have to make the first move by bravely tearing down your own fortress to leave your soul naked to her gaze. Your wife needs to see you as you once were before you resorted to building your walls before she'll lower her wariness enough to tear down her own walls and begin the process of communication.

 

There are many more steps I'd like you to take after completing your 1st task that I believe will facilitate better communication with your wife and a collapsing of the emotional divide yawning widely in your marriage but nothing will work until you take this first step now!

 

You have opportunity galore to fix your marriage but time is not on your side so it is critically important that you begin the repair process currently being discussed asap!

 

She was curious enough to grow feelings for you once so let's peak that curiousity again!

[Owl]

Good post, PP. Seriously...well thought out.

 

 

SD, I wanted to point something out to you...you keep going back to this:

All she wants is to be loved. And I did not give enough of that to her before.

 

Dude...re-reading your thread, I'm telling you...the consistent theme here is that she either doesn't want to be loved...or she doesn't want to be loved BY YOU.

 

You keep saying that...but if you go back and reread your own posts, and look at her responses EVERY SINGLE TIME you've tried to tell/show her love...you'll see what I'm saying.

 

Actions speak louder than words. Her ACTIONS are a clearly hostile response every single time you try to shower her with love.

 

We've tried pointing this out to you time and again.

 

You're doing the same thing over and over, and all its done is push her away.

 

When are you going to be willing to try a new tactic?

[TrustInYourself]

No, I don't agree. You want to be happy? Really lay it on her.

 

Go over there on a daily basis with flowers and cards. Call her at work and profess your love. Offer to watch your daughter so she can go out. When you don't have your daughter around, go through all your pictures and videos of when you were together. Show her the pictures and videos. Prove to her that this decision was a mistake. Write long letters showing in detail how you can work things out.

 

Whatever you do, don't respect her space. Chase her and fulfill her emotional needs at any chance you can get. If she resists, disregard her chatter. Scream louder if she starts screaming. Demand love and expect results.

 

I don't think it's a matter of tactics, it's just a matter of doing more. Let me know how it goes.

[imagine]

Overwhelming her will can come off as manipulating and false.

 

A glass of water slakes a thirst but the ocean just drowns you.

 

Consider what Owl says!