How to start from scratch in 12 mo separation ?

[SingleDad]

Owl - I know, I know

[Owl]

SD, I've fought and fought to get you to see that if she IS seeing someone now, if she WAS seeing someone while you were still together...IT MATTERS.

 

IT CHANGES YOUR TACTICS

[SingleDad]

I would prefer to maintain my marital relationship with my Wife - assuming she would no longer be the B-tch she has been the last 12 months.

 

But if you will say next that I have to expose the affair - then I would say it doesn't matter at this point - We are both able to date other people and I could never prove that the divorce was initiated by W after starting an affair - and still it wouldn't matter to anyone...

 

To W and to her family - the only thing that matters is that she is happy - and she wasn't happy in the marriage when she was with me.

 

All I can do now is live my life - GAL, be a great father, be friendly to my W, manke my home warm and inviting, and leave an open invitation to return... and see if she ever wants to return.

 

I guess I'd like to have the ability to give our marriage another chance, knowing things now that I didn't understand before.... and see if it can work, and if it can't then I would know with my eyes wide open and while on manual control, rather than on auto-pilot not knowing how easy it is to divorce and break apart a family.

[SingleDad]

SD, I've fought and fought to get you to see that if she IS seeing someone now, if she WAS seeing someone while you were still together...IT MATTERS.

 

IT CHANGES YOUR TACTICS

 

I do not see how it affects anything.

 

True - My family would see my W poorly that the afffair broke up the marriage.

 

But - W and my W's family would just see it as she wasn't happy in the marriage and she did the right thing ending it to be with someone who made her happy - that is exactly what her family has already done in the past.

 

Anything I do to fight that - would just prove to W the kind of B-stard I am... And that I had to stalk her to find out the truth, invade her privacy, etc. I would never live that down - that would be more damning to her than having an affair.

 

If she is seeing someone she is not doing it when she has our daughter. So the only way I could spy on my W is when I have my daughter - and bring my daughter into it. I did try to find out if she was seeing someone before the separation - with no success. All I knew is that she was lying to me on several occassions. I stopped when my lawyer suggested that stalking my wife would undermine my legal rights in a custody battle.

 

The truth will reveal itself someday.

[SingleDad]

Is finding out the truth of an affair worth the risk of losing the ability to coordinate or re-schedule parenting time - and cooperate with each other over parenting issues for the benefit of our daughter ?

[TrustInYourself]

Difficult decision.

 

I can tell you're fairly sucessful in your career. What strengths do you have that allow you to be successful there? How can you implement them in your strategy for reconciliation (assuming that is still something you hope for).

 

Tactics can't be employed unless you understand the situation you are dealing with. Right now, you're adrift on the ocean with a goal of getting home and you have an excellent understanding of the path you need to take. The problem is you have no idea where you are at presently. The current situation is foggy.

 

Conflict can be used to create resolution. Did you not create conflict by refusing to divorce? Why would you hesitate to create conflict by asking for an honest appraisal of the situation? Do you not deserve the truth? Do you not care about the truth? Do you prefer not knowing?

 

I hate asking these questions. If there is no hope for reconciliation then you are doing the right thing by not pressing for reconciliation and working towards an amicable relationship to co-parent your daughter for the rest of her childhood.

 

If there is hope for reconciliation you need to create conditions which are conducive to your efforts. She needs to wonder about you, she needs to feel jealousy, love, anguish, hurt, confusion, indecisiveness. There are methods to induce these reactions or to gain her desire.

[Owl]

Is finding out the truth of an affair worth the risk of losing the ability to coordinate or re-schedule parenting time - and cooperate with each other over parenting issues for the benefit of our daughter ?

 

I guess that's up to you, SD.

 

I personally don't see how you successfully recover your marriage without fighting to get the affair to end first.

 

If she's building a relationship with someone else (and it totally sounds to me like she is), then you can pretty much FORGET about any hope of her re-establishing her relationship with you before the divorce comes through...unless something changes the equation.

 

If you don't fight to get the affair ended...then you may as well go ahead and focus all your effort and energy on creating the best possible divorce solution you can.

 

Like I said...some things are mutually exclusive. EITHER you support the divorce, or you support reconciliation.

[Owl]

Good post, TIY...that's basically the same thing I'm saying.

[TrustInYourself]

Acceptance is different than resigning yourself to fate/chance.

 

I'm talking about assessing your current situation, understanding your chances, weighing your choices, formulating a plan, enacting the plan, measuring the results of your actions, adjusting your actions and reactions, assessment, and achieving your goal.

[Owl]

Acceptance is different than resigning yourself to fate/chance.

 

I'm talking about assessing your current situation, understanding your chances, weighing your choices, formulating a plan, enacting the plan, measuring the results of your actions, adjusting your actions and reactions, assessment, and achieving your goal.

 

Which all STARTS with the creation of a clear, concise, single minded GOAL.

[TrustInYourself]

Owl stop reading my mind.

[SingleDad]

Difficult decision.

 

 

Strategy 1: If there is no hope for reconciliation then you are doing the right thing by not pressing for reconciliation and working towards an amicable relationship to co-parent your daughter for the rest of her childhood.

 

Strategy 2: If there is hope for reconciliation you need to create conditions which are conducive to your efforts. She needs to wonder about you, she needs to feel jealousy, love, anguish, hurt, confusion, indecisiveness. There are methods to induce these reactions or to gain her desire.

 

My W would be completely in favor of Strategy #1... That is the path that I have been following - as my W has also been saying that the only chance for us is if she respects me... and she can only do that if I let her go, agree on the legal separation, let her live on her own without any interference and with complete respect for her privacy. After she regains her self and is happy and we can be friends, then maybe there is a possibility to see what happens then.

 

Strategy #2 - to date she does not seem to have any of these emotions... I am not the right man for her, so she is moving on. The only thing I can do is to let her see that I am the right man for her, buy getting a life myself, being a better father than she imagined, and having her feel like she made a mistake and is missing out on something wonderful. I do not know How I could do that by putting her through more anguish, or hurt by exposing an affair ...

 

But jealousy, love, indecisiveness, confusion would be emotions I would like to have her feel inside - those feelings could have her question her actions. Yet, I do not think dating someone else would make her jealous - I think instead it would let her know I have moved on and she would no longer need to feel guilty for ending the marriage. I think her keeping her Guilt or at least questioning my status is better than knowing that I am seeing someone else.

[SingleDad]

Fine - my GOAL is to get my wife back - the wife I knew before we even had a daughter - and with my efforts, make our marriage better than it was before.

 

I have to sign off this fantasy land now - I have to go to a client appointment. Chat more tomorrow.

[SingleDad]

Oh - and I would say I had a couple recent successes.

 

Monday when my W stayed around the house for 30 minutes - sitting on the couch and petting the dogs.

 

Tuesday when she called me and asked me to help her invest the money (I gave her). She didn't even let me invest her 401(k) when we were married - and that is what I do for a living.

 

Maybe it's because she just closed on her house - and I did not get in her way.

 

Also,W just finished with her brother for a week visiting - Her brother and sister in law had agreed that a separation might be good when things are bad... never indicated to me they favored a divorce... I am sure they talked about our situation - whether it was improving, what does she want, am I being a good father, etc. Maybe they put a word in her ear to keep her options open - including seeing if her marriage can be saved ??!

 

do not know for sure - but there has been a slight difference in the right direction the last two days.

[TrustInYourself]

Yeah, I'd agree. You've backed off and that's something you didn't do initially. We can both agree that she's more open since you've stop pressing her.

 

What I am asking is, what if you take it a tad further. What if you tell her you're busy when she asks to come over or after she's visited for a short while? What if you spend a weekend or some time during the week for yourself? That's what I'm suggesting. Going with what works. If what you are doing now is working, well that's good. It might be good to see what happens when you give her more of what's working. That's on you though.

[SingleDad]

As far as investigating an affair...

 

IF knowing my W was having an affair, and IF she broke off our marriage so she could have and affair, and IF I could prove it, and IF I could use that evidence to tell her family, and IF it would bring her back to the marriage - Don't you think I would do it !!!!

 

There are just too many IF's... I tried to find out is she was having an affair early on. But had no luck. Her cell phone and PDA and e-mail were password protected. She was home evenings and weekends - so if she was, it would have had to be during the day - and likely with a co-worker. I investigated a man from daycare and traced his cell phone to his house - no luck there. I had a fellow co-worker inquire around her office - nothing. I looked into hiring a private investigator - $150/hour at a time when the legal bills were piling up. I looked into a GPS device to track her car. I followed her twice to see where she was driving off to. My attorney told me it wouldn't affect custody - in fact it could have hurt me being perceived as stalking and mentally unstable. My pastor told me nothing good would come from it - it would just piss her off more. My family told me not to stalk her. Her family wouldn't have cared - theie only concern is her happiness.

 

So what good would have come from it ? I stopped looking for it.

 

Now it is too late anyway - it is accepted by current culture to date after legal separation.

 

I will just assume that my W is seeing someone or at least wants the freedom to see others... so given that i do not think there is any tactic I can take - other than doing things for myself, trying to enjoy my life and learn to be happy, be there for my W if she ever needs me (or usually), be friendly to her, have her feel welcome in my home, free of any attempts by me to be clingy or ask about our relationship, be laid back, and let my W see that I have a great life, and maybe let her curiousity about what I am doing build - - and see if over time she wants to work her way back in my life... Be better to her and be a better father to our daughter than any potential boyfriend could be.

 

I think that sums up many of the things the I have learned from Owl, TIY, badbrit, pelicanpreacher, Ladyjane and others

 

If there is anything else I can do - I'd like to know.

[Owl]

Again, your description of your goal sounds nothing like trying to save your marriage...it sounds like learning to live and be happy with appeasing your wife.

 

I'm going to speak BLUNTLY...even moreso than usual for me. That should speak volumes by itself.

 

You're not going to stand a snowball's chance in heck in EVER recovering your marriage if you continue to live in fear of your wife.

 

Every post you make clearly outlines that you're afraid of your wife's responses to anything you do. You've talked yourself out of taking any potentially confrontation that could come up.

 

You have GIVEN her all the power in this relationship. She has all the decision making power, all of the control in your entire relationship. What she says, goes. What she doesn't like, isn't considered, or is summarily dismissed as not feasible. You have relinquished all control...willingly.

 

Remember the numerous times LJ and I have both commented that a woman doesn't love a man that she can't respect?

 

How can she respect a man who refuses avoids any potential conflict, who lives his life in fear of upsetting her?

 

I've got no further advice to offer you. There really isn't anything else I can suggest. I wish you well, but unless something happens to FORCE a change in your situation, I don't see what else I can give you.

[badbrit]

Yeah, be consistant with your actions, never falter, never slip up and also get busy and show that she may be losing the option of you.

 

She may not want you but she knows she always has the option of you. Take it away and see how she likes it. Not in a nasty way, just be mysterious, unavailable sometimes, even sometimes say you cannot see your daughter because you have plans.

 

Oh and the other thing you need to do is stop with the excuses because I can already hear them coming. "OH i cant do that, if I do that then she will start reducing when she allows me to see daughter......it will make her angry....I want her to see I am a great dad not a bad one....I miss my daughter, I want more time with her not less...."

 

You need to be a lot smarter. There is SOME level of interest still coming from her, I can sniff it a mile off. Yank that rug away CLEVERLY and create some uncertainty

 

Hope + Uncertainty = desire

 

BINGO!!

[SingleDad]

Again, your description of your goal sounds nothing like trying to save your marriage...it sounds like learning to live and be happy with appeasing your wife.

 

I'm going to speak BLUNTLY...even moreso than usual for me. That should speak volumes by itself.

 

You're not going to stand a snowball's chance in heck in EVER recovering your marriage if you continue to live in fear of your wife.

 

Every post you make clearly outlines that you're afraid of your wife's responses to anything you do. You've talked yourself out of taking any potentially confrontation that could come up.

 

You have GIVEN her all the power in this relationship. She has all the decision making power, all of the control in your entire relationship. What she says, goes. What she doesn't like, isn't considered, or is summarily dismissed as not feasible. You have relinquished all control...willingly.

 

Remember the numerous times LJ and I have both commented that a woman doesn't love a man that she can't respect?

 

How can she respect a man who refuses avoids any potential conflict, who lives his life in fear of upsetting her?

 

I've got no further advice to offer you. There really isn't anything else I can suggest. I wish you well, but unless something happens to FORCE a change in your situation, I don't see what else I can give you.

 

There was so much conflict between us over the past 7 months - fighting to save the marriage, fighting over terms of the parenting plan... conflict, conflict conflict. That was just pushing us further away - no ripping us apart. And now Owl, you suggest I continue to fight and have conflict with my W? WTF ? Believe me, there will be situations where I will want to argue with her - I am not planning on being her doormat.

 

Other than hiring an investigator to see that she is dating someone - I thought I have been changing to do everything you suggest.

[SingleDad]

Yeah, be consistant with your actions, never falter, never slip up and also get busy and show that she may be losing the option of you.

 

She may not want you but she knows she always has the option of you. Take it away and see how she likes it. Not in a nasty way, just be mysterious, unavailable sometimes, even sometimes say you cannot see your daughter because you have plans.

 

Oh and the other thing you need to do is stop with the excuses because I can already hear them coming. "OH i cant do that, if I do that then she will start reducing when she allows me to see daughter......it will make her angry....I want her to see I am a great dad not a bad one....I miss my daughter, I want more time with her not less...."

 

You need to be a lot smarter. There is SOME level of interest still coming from her, I can sniff it a mile off. Yank that rug away CLEVERLY and create some uncertainty

 

Hope + Uncertainty = desire

 

BINGO!!

 

BadBrit - I read Love Tactics and took 5 pages of notes to refer back to. I understand about doing things to have her more curious about what I am doing.

 

Rather than being home all the time. I frequently don't answer the phone - and I call from my cell phone to talk with my daughter when I am out of the house. Not answering questions when she asked if I was dating. Having lots to do - going places with my daughter. Regularly attending church. Etc.

[SingleDad]

I keep getting overwhelemed with opposing points of view and tactics.

 

I am trying to focus on getting a life and living for me and my daughter, and not needing my W anymore, but being there for her "leaving the light on", making her feel welcome when I see her... I thought that is the point. Have my own life that is so wonderful, my W will question what she is missing

 

Now I'm being told to allow conflict between us - so I'm not a doormat. Sure - I could easily argue with her - how the h-ll can that help things ?

 

I only have about 5 seconds a day to talk with my W when I call my daughter... What the F-ck do you think I can do about it ?

 

Does stalking her to find out about a boyfriend - would that really change anything ?

 

Does telling her I am dating and would never want my W back - "kick her to the curb" - would she really want to come back to me ??? I do not think so - she wants to know that I am dating so she doesnt' have to feel guilty anymore for her indescretions and ending the marraige.

[SingleDad]

 

Remember the numerous times LJ and I have both commented that a woman doesn't love a man that she can't respect?

 

How can she respect a man who refuses avoids any potential conflict, who lives his life in fear of upsetting her?

 

I've got no further advice to offer you. There really isn't anything else I can suggest. I wish you well, but unless something happens to FORCE a change in your situation, I don't see what else I can give you.

 

I do not know about that with my W. She respects her father immensely, because she controls him. He would do anything for her - and I learned that he fears her wrath as well.

 

I think that is what she expects her husband to be for her...Someone who will do whatever she wants, whenever she wants. Scary I know. Spoiled definately. Do I want to live like that ? no of course not.... but then I give up half of my daughter.

 

Damned if I do, damned if I don't

[Owl]

She respects her father immensely, because she controls him. He would do anything for her - and I learned that he fears her wrath as well.

 

Trust me...she does NOT respect him.

 

NO ONE RESPECTS SOMEONE THEY CAN "USE"!!!!!

 

She loves having someone around she can control. That is NOT the same thing as being in love with them. Its not even close.

 

Bluntly...your wife sounds more and more like someone who's NOT CAPABLE of having a real relationship or marriage with someone.

 

Honestly...you're right. I don't know squat about trying to reconcile a marriage with a completely self-centered, controlling personality. I wouldn't try.

 

I've got nothing further to offer you, my friend. I wish you the best of luck in whatever you decide to do.

[SingleDad]

I know....

 

Owl - much of your advice I could have used back in February when this whole thing started - about how to expose and affair and end it to repair a marriage...I wasn't on this forum back then.

 

Then when I started - I did not believe all of the advice about not being needy or clingy - I had truly believed that my W left me because I did not show her enough of my love - that all I needed to do was show her I truly loved her and would do anything for her and she would come back - I was wrong, she was already too far removed.

 

Now I think I have to look at it from a point of view much father away - and advice along the same lines.

 

Assume this scenario: Separated for 2 or 3 years with only limited communication over our daughter and my W having freedom and dating and enjoying her independent life.

 

What advice whould there be in this situation ?

 

I think that it is using Love Tactics like badbrit suggests; Avoiding Love Busters (including conflicts - yet not being a doormat); and Last Resort Techniques such as Get a Life so I can move on and be happy.

 

Only then may my W see me in a better light...

 

Owl - I'm sorry you are fed up with me. I am not planning to be a doormat. I just think that the many conflicts we had during our marriage and in ending it - is exactly what neither of us want. I do not want a relationship where conflict rules the day - like we experienced.

 

I think this new approach I am taking is a complete 180 - by not letting disagreements become conflicts.

 

They do not matter anymore - nothing conflicts me more - nothing has destroyed my world more than the dismantling of my family. Any other conflict I ever had was petty in comparison.

 

I cry everyday that I do not get to see my daughter... I am trying to get past that and learn to life a good life even on those days I do not have her.

 

I could date others - but that would be transferring my emptiness into the need for another person. I have to learn to enjoy my own company.

[TrustInYourself]

I know....

 

Owl - much of your advice I could have used back in February when this whole thing started - about how to expose and affair and end it to repair a marriage...I wasn't on this forum back then.

 

Then when I started - I did not believe all of the advice about not being needy or clingy - I had truly believed that my W left me because I did not show her enough of my love - that all I needed to do was show her I truly loved her and would do anything for her and she would come back - I was wrong, she was already too far removed.

 

Now I think I have to look at it from a point of view much father away - and advice along the same lines.

 

Assume this scenario: Separated for 2 or 3 years with only limited communication over our daughter and my W having freedom and dating and enjoying her independent life.

 

What advice whould there be in this situation ?

 

I think that it is using Love Tactics like badbrit suggests; Avoiding Love Busters (including conflicts - yet not being a doormat); and Last Resort Techniques such as Get a Life so I can move on and be happy.

 

Only then may my W see me in a better light...

 

Owl - I'm sorry you are fed up with me. I am not planning to be a doormat. I just think that the many conflicts we had during our marriage and in ending it - is exactly what neither of us want. I do not want a relationship where conflict rules the day - like we experienced.

 

I think this new approach I am taking is a complete 180 - by not letting disagreements become conflicts.

 

They do not matter anymore - nothing conflicts me more - nothing has destroyed my world more than the dismantling of my family. Any other conflict I ever had was petty in comparison.

 

I cry everyday that I do not get to see my daughter... I am trying to get past that and learn to life a good life even on those days I do not have her.

 

I could date others - but that would be transferring my emptiness into the need for another person. I have to learn to enjoy my own company.

 

Inspirational words. Live by them, bro.