mopar crazy Posted July 2, 2008 Share Posted July 2, 2008 Last night my little brother, his W, and myself got into a Religious debate. My brother and I were raised and dedicated in the Baptist church but then our parents moved us to the Church of Nazarene for several years, then back to Baptist. The reasons was b/c of the change in ministers, parents didn't like new ones. Anyhow, I did not realize my brother believes in purgatory, I do not. PLZ do not bash me for not believing in it, it's my belief. I believe you either go to Heaven or Hell after you die. Well, this raised the debate of ppl that do not know God, do not know He exist, was never taught about Him etc. Do these ppl go to Hell b/c they never accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Savior? Most of my dad's side of the family are missionaries so they do go to other Countries and share the word of God, but what about those ppl that do not? Do they go to Hell when they die b/c they don't know God and live by His word b/c no one taught them? What about the children that were never taught by their parents about God? Do they go to Hell if they die? I feel God is a merciful God, and I believe you do need to have God as your personal Savior and follow His Word. I feel the way into Heaven is through Jesus Christ but what about those unfortunate not to know Him? Where never taught about Him? Link to post Share on other sites
blind_otter Posted July 2, 2008 Share Posted July 2, 2008 Last night my little brother, his W, and myself got into a Religious debate. My brother and I were raised and dedicated in the Baptist church but then our parents moved us to the Church of Nazarene for several years, then back to Baptist. The reasons was b/c of the change in ministers, parents didn't like new ones. Anyhow, I did not realize my brother believes in purgatory, I do not. PLZ do not bash me for not believing in it, it's my belief. I believe you either go to Heaven or Hell after you die. Well, this raised the debate of ppl that do not know God, do not know He exist, was never taught about Him etc. Do these ppl go to Hell b/c they never accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Savior? Most of my dad's side of the family are missionaries so they do go to other Countries and share the word of God, but what about those ppl that do not? Do they go to Hell when they die b/c they don't know God and live by His word b/c no one taught them? What about the children that were never taught by their parents about God? Do they go to Hell if they die? I feel God is a merciful God, and I believe you do need to have God as your personal Savior and follow His Word. I feel the way into Heaven is through Jesus Christ but what about those unfortunate not to know Him? Where never taught about Him? This is just idle curiosity, but do you believe unbaptized babies go to hell? I assume baptists believe in original sin, since they do practice baptizing.... And according to most christian theology, AFAIK, yes if you do not accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior, then you do go to hell. Disclaimer - I do not believe this. Link to post Share on other sites
Author mopar crazy Posted July 2, 2008 Author Share Posted July 2, 2008 This is just idle curiosity, but do you believe unbaptized babies go to hell? I assume baptists believe in original sin, since they do practice baptizing.... And according to most christian theology, AFAIK, yes if you do not accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior, then you do go to hell. Disclaimer - I do not believe this. No, I do not feel unbaptized babies go to hell. My belief on baptism is that you should be old enough to understand why you are being baptized, hence why I don't believe in infancy baptism. Sorry if that offends anyone. Link to post Share on other sites
blind_otter Posted July 2, 2008 Share Posted July 2, 2008 No, I do not feel unbaptized babies go to hell. My belief on baptism is that you should be old enough to understand why you are being baptized, hence why I don't believe in infancy baptism. Sorry if that offends anyone. Ah, Ok. In the Catholic faith they used to say unbaptized babies went to limbo, but now current theology indicates they go to heaven. But of course, Catholics believe in infant bapitsm. Catholics also have a number of sacraments that followers go through, like confirmation (to enter into adulthood in the church), reconciliation, and first communion. It's strange how much various christian sects differ in their belief systems. I always wondered if other christian sects believe that christians who have different beliefs go to hell. Link to post Share on other sites
blind_otter Posted July 2, 2008 Share Posted July 2, 2008 I think that they do. That's why I try to study and read the bible, so if you can't show me the basis for your beliefs in the Word of God, I ain't buying what you're selling. I'm not sure I understand. You're saying that some sects of christianity DO believe that other types of christians are going to go to hell? I always thought that was bizarre. Then again, organized religion in general has always been bizarre to me. I believe in God, but I don't buy organized religion. Seems to me it's just one person's interpretation (the founder of whatever sect) of what God is saying. Link to post Share on other sites
Enema Posted July 2, 2008 Share Posted July 2, 2008 I think that they do. That's why I try to study and read the bible, so if you can't show me the basis for your beliefs in the Word of God, I ain't buying what you're selling. How do you know your version of your particular group's book is the right one? Link to post Share on other sites
Author mopar crazy Posted July 2, 2008 Author Share Posted July 2, 2008 Jesus won't come back until the gospel has been preached to all people, in all parts of the world. We don't know when that will be, but until then, no one is going anywhere. And as far as unbaptized babies. They can't make a choice to believe or not, so they are loved and protected. Thanks bent. But what about the ppl that die b4 Christ returns? The ones that do not know the Gospel? What about them? Will they go to Hell b/c they haven't asked Jesus Christ to come into their hearts as their personal Savior? Link to post Share on other sites
quankanne Posted July 2, 2008 Share Posted July 2, 2008 I feel the way into Heaven is through Jesus Christ but what about those unfortunate not to know Him? Where never taught about Him? this is a simplistic answer, shaped and formed by my Catholic upbringing: Jesus was and is the ultimate sacrifice for all of mankind, for the nonbelievers and the believers, for the churched and for the ignorant, for Christians and non-Christians alike, throughout all the ages. because God gives the gift of grace and faith leads us to him because we are created in his image, his gift of salvation of Christ is definitely possible for all, past, present and future. In the Apostles Creed we recite at every Mass, we profess our belief that Christ descended into Hell, rising rising on the third day, according to Scripture and faith tradition. why would Jesus bother to go to hell if not to rescue the souls of people who awaited their savior even though they died long before his arrival? Who have the natural grace of God, that spark of divinity that led them to God even before Christ's arrival? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Harrowing_of_Hell so yeah, I believe those folks who have never heard of Jesus but who choose to be of God will see him on Judgment Day. Because with God, anything is possible, and his grace and love for us endless. Link to post Share on other sites
quankanne Posted July 2, 2008 Share Posted July 2, 2008 infant baptism *raises hand* I believe in it, because it goes back to that time in the Scripture when the apostles were baptizing whole families into communities of faith. Catholics baptism takes place on a whole number of levels: to initiate the child into the sacraments; to wipe the stain of original sin from the baby's soul; to welcome a child into a community of believers; and most importantly, to provide that community the opportunity to renew themselves sacramentally to God. We profess our believe in Him, we reject the works of Satan, we renew our covenant with God every time someone is baptized in the Church, be it that tiny baby or an adult. as Otter points out, the Catholic Church has a slew of sacraments that mark, if you will, the different milestones in people's lives, from birth to death ... and they all start with baptism. Link to post Share on other sites
The Collector Posted July 2, 2008 Share Posted July 2, 2008 Religion is stupid for so many reasons, including the unfairness illustrated by this thread's question. But people love believing in any old rubbish so long as it makes them feel better. Link to post Share on other sites
quankanne Posted July 2, 2008 Share Posted July 2, 2008 how does unfairness enter the question? At some point, people who profess a belief in God come to the realization that anything is possible through and with him, and these "rules & regs" man insists upon fall by the wayside. Link to post Share on other sites
The Collector Posted July 2, 2008 Share Posted July 2, 2008 The unfairness relates to all those who will supposedly burn in hell because they weren't 'fortunate' enough to hear about Jesus. Link to post Share on other sites
Author mopar crazy Posted July 2, 2008 Author Share Posted July 2, 2008 Religion is stupid for so many reasons, including the unfairness illustrated by this thread's question. But people love believing in any old rubbish so long as it makes them feel better. If you think I started this thread b/c I feel that anyone who does not know about God should go to Hell you couldn't be more wrong. It was a question, simple as that. I did NOT post this thread to "feel better." I feel I am "fortunate" to know the love of Christ. If you feel my thread is unfair then that is your opinion, If you are going to start bashing my thread plz stay off and take your own "Religion is stupid" attitude to your own thread. Thank you Moose, where are you? I would love for you to give your thoughts. Link to post Share on other sites
disgracian Posted July 3, 2008 Share Posted July 3, 2008 And before you ask, if I am wrong(I am not) then what have I lost? If I am right( I am) I have gained eternal life in His glory. If you followed the wrong god, you go to their hell. You have lost just as much as the rest of us. If you're wrong and accumulate negative karma, you come back as plankton. This argument is so bogus, because it assumes that if god exists then it is the one you believe in. On a planet that has worshipped thousands and thousands of gods throughout history, it is completely invalid to make that assumption. And any argument you put forth that does will be completely ineffectual. Cheers, D. Link to post Share on other sites
disgracian Posted July 3, 2008 Share Posted July 3, 2008 Yep, you got me. I'm here on a discussion forum arguing my opinions with people who think differently. Just like you were up until the moment you thought it was best to retreat behind a volley of sour grapes and sarcasm. Cheers, D. Link to post Share on other sites
Enema Posted July 3, 2008 Share Posted July 3, 2008 My faith is in God, therefore I follow the precepts of the bible. I know it is right, because of my faith. And before you ask, if I am wrong(I am not) then what have I lost? If I am right( I am) I have gained eternal life in His glory. You've missed the point of the question. How do you know your version of "god" is the right one? Of course, you followed it up with pascals wager, which Disgracian rightly pointed out is one of the worst rationalizations for being a religiot as it has so many flaws. Link to post Share on other sites
disgracian Posted July 3, 2008 Share Posted July 3, 2008 I will never have the answer you seek, because you believe you are right. No, but because your answers do not hold up to scrutiny. I don't need tangible proof, hence faith. Moreover, you probably don't even want it. All depictions of god have one thing in common: they exist just beyond collective human knowledge. They always have and always will. And the more we know, the more our gods retreat into what is left of the unknown. They do, afterall, exist outside of space and time. This place is known as our imaginations. Cheers, D. Link to post Share on other sites
annieo Posted July 4, 2008 Share Posted July 4, 2008 If you followed the wrong god, you go to their hell. You have lost just as much as the rest of us. If you're wrong and accumulate negative karma, you come back as plankton. This argument is so bogus, because it assumes that if god exists then it is the one you believe in. On a planet that has worshipped thousands and thousands of gods throughout history, it is completely invalid to make that assumption. And any argument you put forth that does will be completely ineffectual. Cheers, D. I think that people have been worshipping the same god, only giving him/her/it different names, which would make sense that we are all formed of his/her/it's essence. And we are all so topically and personality-wise different. All one thing, you, me, everyone and everything else, including the stars and galaxies. All one thing, just risen up in different forms that bicker and hopefully inform themselves of their true oneness and divinity in the little time we have as separate, sentient entities, before we dissolve back into the basic elements of truth. I am a Catholic by trade and tradition, that is my path. But there are numberless paths, all leading to the same singularity, and maybe (I hope) love. Link to post Share on other sites
disgracian Posted July 4, 2008 Share Posted July 4, 2008 You guys always gripe about Christians who try to shove their believes down your throats, what do you call what you are doing to me. I call it "disagreeing with you on a forum". I don't preach on street corners, I don't lobby politicians to legislate my intolerance of minority groups or anything else. I keep my remarks on topic, I don't try to persuade anyone from their beliefs. You believe you are enlightened, so why try to force YOUR enlightenment on others, especially after they say they don't want it. I do not believe I am enlightened, nor am I forcing anything on anyone by speaking my mind on the internet. For you to claim otherwise borders on delusional. You told me you didn't want to understand my beliefs, so I know longer burden you with them. But if someone else asks a question and they are willing to listen, then don't jump on me for answering someone else. If you don't want to run the risk of being corrected by somebody else, then don't post on a public forum. Otherwise, just deal with it. People aren't always going to agree, and sometimes they will tell you why. Do you really expect everybody else to tip-toe around you? I am not the Christian you try to pigeon hole in a box. Oh really? And what sort of Christian do you think I think you are? I am not on a conversion crusade or damn them to hell mission. I don't recall ever suggesting you were. I think that you have gathered a lot of misapprehensions about me. In fact, it is you that seems to be pidgeon-holeing me rather than the other way around. Cheers, D. Link to post Share on other sites
disgracian Posted July 4, 2008 Share Posted July 4, 2008 I think that people have been worshipping the same god, only giving him/her/it different names, which would make sense that we are all formed of his/her/it's essence. And we are all so topically and personality-wise different. This is, to me, the only sensible depiction of a singular all-powerful god. One would fervently hope that the author of the Universe is big enough to rise above this tribal mentality that most of our religions are dogged with. One would also hope that such a being's ego is not so fragile as to be offended if some insignificant carbon-based meatbag does not acknowledge its existence because it has been given no compelling reason to do so. All one thing, you, me, everyone and everything else, including the stars and galaxies. All one thing, just risen up in different forms that bicker and hopefully inform themselves of their true oneness and divinity in the little time we have as separate, sentient entities, before we dissolve back into the basic elements of truth. Verily! Everything we are made up of comes from something else. While we live, we shed cells and excrete, when we die we return to the earth and fertilise the soil which, in turn, grows plants that are eaten by animals and humans and so on. In this sense, every part of me is made up of everything and everybody else that have come before, and we are indeed all one. It is my dream that one day, perhaps even within my lifetime, more people will come to realise this. I am a Catholic by trade and tradition, that is my path. But there are numberless paths, all leading to the same singularity, and maybe (I hope) love. I admire you for having such an attitude in spite of a lot of Catholic tradition that would probably argue otherwise. Cheers, D. Link to post Share on other sites
mental_traveller Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 Answer - no one knows. Since we have no reports of dead people coming back and telling us what it's like, no one has any evidence of whether there is an afterlife at all, let alone the finer points of what happens to non-believers. The only thing we know is that life as we know it ends at the point of death. Everything beyond that is unsubstantiated speculation. If you are right, and there is a god, then chances are IMO he would be understanding of anyone who had a good heart and tried to live decently. Link to post Share on other sites
Lovelybird Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 Actually there are many reports that dead people came back, and when they came back, they became believers of Jesus. They saw something out there; some saw hell, some saw heaven And one man died, and doctor claimed death, but his wife yelled "XX, in Jesus name, come back to your body', then he woke, all doctors were amazed, just like Bible described that bring dead alive again and Holy Spirit healed uncurable cancer IMO you all just listen to unbelief too much, what's fun is about losing hope, losing expectation of seeing miracles happen, losing faith that a good pure God is working in people's lives Link to post Share on other sites
disgracian Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 Absolute piffle. Cheers, D. Link to post Share on other sites
Lovelybird Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 There are only 3 men who have sight, but the rest of the world cannot see. Then the 3 men decribed the colorful beautiful world to all the rest. The rest said "they must be out of their mind, piffle" One of the 3 men began to doubt himself, "maybe the world is right, I am abnormal". So he pulled his eyes out, became just like the rest of the world, totally blind and living in darkness And the other 2 men trust in their hearts still enjoy the beauty, the colors, the natures Link to post Share on other sites
Enema Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 Actually there are many reports that dead people came back, and when they came back, they became believers of Jesus. They saw something out there; some saw hell, some saw heaven We've explained this to you before. Near death experiences cannot be taken as evidence as we have been able to replicate them simply by stimulating different parts of the brain with electricity. In laymans terms: We can zap a part of your brain and you'll think you saw god. When you die, your brain activity goes haywire and it's extremely likely that this and the lack of oxygen is the cause of any such experience. and Holy Spirit healed uncurable cancer He only ever "heals" things that occasionally remit by themselves... never heals an amputee. IMO you all just listen to unbelief too much, what's fun is about losing hope, And here it is folks... the reason lonelybird believes... because it's fun to have hope! Who cares about the truth if it makes you feel bad awwww.... Link to post Share on other sites
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