InDoubt Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 I wrote to you guys a few weeks ago about a guy I'm dating. We have a lot of physical chemistry (so far...) but not much else. Apart from travel we don't have common interests, when I ask what he likes to do, that's all he can come up with. When I or our friends start talking about something in the news that impressed us, he pays no attention, he wonders to other, insignificant things. He's not poor (driving a brand new BMW...) but he's a cheapskate. We've been dating for a month and he's never asked me out to dinner, it's mostly a sandwich or coffee. He came first time to my house for dinner, he was the only one who came with empty hands and all my friends noticed. I have to say that he calls (2-3 times a week), he's affectionate and wants to spend a lot of time with me. But otherwise I think this guy is just not a giver. All he wants to know is what I can do for him: "When are you gonna cook for me" "are you giving good massages".... The fact that he's still living at home in his late thirties (not uncommon for people of our cultural background, still this is America!) tells me that he's very spoilt. His sister urges me to be the one to suggest where to go and what to do, in other words I have to make my wants clear to him all the time otherwise, I presume, they are not gonna be met out of his own generous, giving heart. He has given me such indications too, that if I push him he'll do things with me that I like to do. I am very independent and not the type of woman who likes pushing men around or taking them by the hand. WHat do you think, should I lose this guy? Link to post Share on other sites
jalexy Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 simply put, if he is not what you want, get out. Link to post Share on other sites
clia Posted July 29, 2003 Share Posted July 29, 2003 I'm curious, what did you do on your first few dates? He didn't take you out? I think if you want him to take you out to dinner (or anything else), you turn down any invitation from him that does not meet your requirements. You don't offer to cook, you don't make do with coffee. You simply say "Oh, I'm sorry, I can't." Or whatever. Either he'll get the hint...or he won't...and you can go off and find a guy who will treat you the way you want to be treated. I'm generally not a big fan of the noncommunication approach, but... He has given me such indications too, that if I push him he'll do things with me that I like to do. This guy knows better. He knows he is getting away with not doing what he should be doing, because you have let him. Stop letting him! Link to post Share on other sites
InDoubt Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 First date we met for brunch, then we decided to go for an impromptu drive to a winery a couple of hours away. That was nice. Second date we met at night for coffee. Third date we went for lunch, fourth he was going shopping in my city, so we strolled the streets then shared a sandwich. So far so good. Fifth he said Let's get together Friday night. I checked to see if there's anything special going on, didn't see anything interesting (and didn't want to 'assume' he wanted to take me out to dinner, he hadn't so far), so he said Let's go for coffee (surprise!). 9pm on a friday night, the last thing I wanna do is have dinner alone in a hurry, then drive half an hour to have coffee! I am also troubled with his short 'attention span' than the cheapness. It feels like he's telling me "impress me!", at the same time that I am very unimpressed with HIM! (During a romantic date, he kept looking at a nail that looked unevenly cut and asked me if I paint my nails from time to time. At the same time he was offering the information that he hadn't bothered to shave -for thee days- because he couldn't be bothered! I had spent an hour getting ready!). The reason I'm writing is that I don't want to be too picky with men, I'm 34 and want to start a family. I often find it hard to know what's important and what is not Link to post Share on other sites
jalexy Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 im really confused with this, actually. did he pay for all those dates? if so, what is your problem? he seems to be ok....maybe you are just being ridiculous? Link to post Share on other sites
InDoubt Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 I personally don't care paying for our dates. That's not the problem. He does buy coffee, if that's what you mean. The problem is that he's cheap to a point that is making dating uncomfortable. I have declined dates with him on a Saturday night becuase i know I'll end up eating alone at home whan I could be having fun out with my friends. When we meet in the afternoon, he cuts the dates short, saying vagely that he has to 'catch up with things' so that he doesn't have to get into any more expences. What would happen if we seriously start dating and wanna go away on a long weekend? Will his mom pack all his meals for him before we go? Link to post Share on other sites
clia Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 Okay, I was with you (well--the second date of meeting at night for coffee is a little odd) until... Fifth he said Let's get together Friday night. I checked to see if there's anything special going on, didn't see anything interesting (and didn't want to 'assume' he wanted to take me out to dinner, he hadn't so far), so he said Let's go for coffee (surprise!). 9pm on a friday night, the last thing I wanna do is have dinner alone in a hurry, then drive half an hour to have coffee! This is insane to me. He asked you out for Friday night...and he wants to go out for coffee? At 9 p.m.? How weird. This does sound really strange and uncomfortable. I mean, when you feel like he doesn't want to spend time with you because of the money he might spend...not fun. I know I wouldn't like it. I'd probably kick him to the curb, but that's just me. There are better men out there, and I don't think you are being too picky at all! Link to post Share on other sites
vixen Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 i've heard that break-ups are often done over coffee in a public place. Not to make anyone paranoid, but *shrug* the late night sounds mad fishy. That's just my 2 cents. ja ne Link to post Share on other sites
InDoubt Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 The Friday night coffee thing was the weekend before, so we're still 'together'. Since then I saw him last Saturday when I had some common friends (among them a woman he's known for 20 yrs) over for a late lunch. That's the time he didn't bring anything (and to our culture that's a no-no). It was obvious he was giving extra attention to the other woman in the group, who's engaged. It was funny that after lunch, because of her taking initiative in planning the rest of the evening, he came along to a movie AND dinner AND he paid for my dinner! Next day he called and said that was a lot of fun and we should do more of that (of having a full day? Of having other women around to entertain him?). Maybe that was a clue for me to take more initiative- Or a clue that we need to have those people he respects around in order to have fun Weird, did anyone say? Link to post Share on other sites
vixen Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 Did you try talking to him about his odd behavior. Unfortunatly he sounds like one of those walk three steps behind me guys. Tell him how you feel, worse comes to worse the relationship ends, but if he knows where you stand, he can't say you didn't give him fair warning. Link to post Share on other sites
sharkgirl Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 If I wasn't in England, I'd say we were dating the same guy! I have been dating him for over 3 years (2+ being Long Dist.) and once I moved over here to the UK it has been a real hard time for me. This is EXACTLY how he is. He has lived at home since he left University and his Mum still does his laundry. He doesn't take any initiative and can never make a decision. He is painfully shy so never wants to go out with me or meet my friends, it's really frustrating. I was so lonely, so was he and then we found each other. I love him, he makes me laugh, but I don't know what to do either. Ugh. I hope we both find the answers soon. Link to post Share on other sites
InDoubt Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 he is the walk three steps behind me kind of guy! I just never quite thought it like that before. But I've seen his insecurities coming through quite a few times, too. Guys like that used to intimidate me, not any more, I don't think. I may give this whole thing another month, see how it goes. But I think I should try to imitate him a little: he is very forthcoming about what HE wants from me, and I can't blame him for that. We all choose relationships that satisfy OUR needs. I think I should learn how to be pro-active about letting him know what MY needs are, and verbally (or non-verbally) confer this to him. So far my approach to a new relationship has been: go along, see how it goes, then walk away if it's not satisfying. I think I've been too proud and/or afraid I might come across as needy or controlling if I actually said anything. I just have to find out how to be assertive without feeling like I'm begging for my needs to be met AND without coming across as bossy! Link to post Share on other sites
rubgirl202 Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 Maybe I'm just paranoid, but you said that he's late 30s and still lives at home with his parents (which is not out of the ordinary for your culture), but are you SURE that he DOES still live at home with his parents and not someone else? Fine that he's not taking you out to dinners (which is strange to me because the evenings are so romantic, and the not going out to dinner indicates some sort of curfue...), so perhaps you should invite him to dinner and see how the time thing works out. Since you invited him, you'd be the one that is the (unsaid) one controlling the date...this situation needs a few tests...also, is it typical of your culture for you to be introduced to parents sooner than later? If so, meet the folks! (make sure that living with parents story is true). this one is just rubbing the detective in me the wrong way. Also, being that you're 34 is absolutely NO reason to think you need to settle! Being safe and happy should be up there! Link to post Share on other sites
InDoubt Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 Thank you so much rubgirl for your concern. I often wonder about how he spends his evenings when he says he 'catches up with things'. But I am certain that he does live at home with his parents. His sister is one of my closest friends and, although I've known him the last couple of years, we just started dating now because of her 'intervention'. And I believe that she knows that he's a cheapskate- it's funny, I called her before the fifth date (the Friday night coffee thing) and she said: has he suggested what you're doing tonight, I said no. "Good! Then tell him to take you to so and so restaurant.."! But I couldn't suggest it to him. I guess I wanted to see what he felt like offering out of his own heart. I think Clia was right on target when she wrote " This guy knows better. He knows he is getting away with not doing what he should be doing, because you have let him. Stop letting him!" He KNOWS what he should be doing. For instance, he said "I should bring something to your dinner party" but because i didn't say "Yes, maybe a bottle of wine.." he didn't bring anything. He knows he should shave because he brought it up himself - he said I got bored and haven't shaved in three days but let me know if it hurts your chick" I felt like saying to him "Am I bleeding??" but didn't say anything! I'm sure he'll keep doing it! I just have a seriously hard time telling people what to do! Link to post Share on other sites
clia Posted July 30, 2003 Share Posted July 30, 2003 I just have a seriously hard time telling people what to do! You don't have to explicitly tell him what to do. You can tell him what to do through actions. For example: (1) Say he calls on Friday evening and asks if you want to get together. You say "What did you have in mind?" He says "Oh, maybe grab a cup of coffee." You say "Oh, that sounds nice, but I haven't even eaten dinner yet, so I'm going to have to pass tonight." And if he says..."What about after dinner?" (dummy!) You can say "I think it'll be too late by then. I need my beauty sleep." In this way, you have not directly said "Take me to dinner." But he will get the hint that if he wants to see you, he should take you to dinner. The door is open for him to offer... (2) Say he mentions that he hasn't shaved in three days. Look bored. Change the subject. ("Ooh...look at the pretty flowers.") Whatever. Don't smile and nod or do anything to indicate that you think it's cute of him not to put any effort forth into getting ready for you. Same goes for him staring at a nail all evening. Look bored. (3) When he says "I should bring something to your dinner party" you say "Oh, so and so is bringing the nicest bottle of red wine!" Or "So and so is bringing her famous lemon meringue!" You don't directly tell him what to do--but you let him know what others are doing and hope he takes the hint. And, most importantly, when he DOES do something you like, indirectly compliment him. As in, "This is a great restaurant!" or "This is the best seared ahi tuna I have ever had!" Guys eat this stuff up. He'll feel like he cooked the food, and he will like it that he was able to make you happy, so he will want to do this again. (Or at least that's how it usually works!) Link to post Share on other sites
vixen Posted July 31, 2003 Share Posted July 31, 2003 That advice just kinda helped me too!! My jon is sweet but sometimes i just don't like, or want to do that, or sometimes i'd just like some love and affection. Any tips on how to get him to be more affectionate in your sly manner, or is the whole praise for good deed done the way to take this case? Like if he gives me love then be happy and somehow let him know i realy like it. Thanks!! Link to post Share on other sites
rubgirl202 Posted July 31, 2003 Share Posted July 31, 2003 Well, InDoubt...a wise person (my mother) once told me a long time ago when i was in relationship woes that "the woman sets the tone of the relationship" in layman terms, what that means is the woman indicates to the man how she will let him treat her and what she will and will not take. If you continue to be a doormat to this guy, he'll just keep doing it and get used to doing it. If you want change, now is the time to do it. You're 34! Time to assert your womanhood!Be strong! Be kind! Be gentle! But be honest! At the end of the day, you answer to yourself, and if you don't like what you're hearing, time to change things...don't let this dude get away with treating you like crap or how you don't want to be (or else you obviously would not have written). Now go out there and get treated well!!! Link to post Share on other sites
rubgirl202 Posted July 31, 2003 Share Posted July 31, 2003 clia hit the nail on the head. ignore negative behavior and reinforce the positive...just like children! that's icky you have to deal with that, InDoubt...but hey, we have faith in you. You can do it!!! Link to post Share on other sites
InDoubt Posted July 31, 2003 Share Posted July 31, 2003 Thanks Clia and rubgirl for all the advice. I can see how reinforcing the positive behaviour can work and it's something I need to do more of. But ignoring the negative is what I've been doing so far with this guy and it's not working. I make no comment whatsoever and that's my problem. Link to post Share on other sites
InDoubt Posted July 31, 2003 Share Posted July 31, 2003 Thanks Clia and rubgirl for all the advice. I can see how reinforcing the positive behaviour can work and it's something I need to do more of. But ignoring the negative is what I've been doing so far with this guy and it's not working. I make no comment whatsoever and that's my problem. Link to post Share on other sites
clia Posted July 31, 2003 Share Posted July 31, 2003 "the woman sets the tone of the relationship" Absolutely. I believe that most guys know what the highest standard is. (There are of course, some that need a little more guidance.) They've seen enough movies to know how to treat a woman. But if the woman doesn't demand this kind of behavior, they slack off, and for good reason. I mean, if you don't care (or don't let them know you appreciate) if they take you out or do nice things for you, then why should they bother? Any tips on how to get him to be more affectionate in your sly manner, or is the whole praise for good deed done the way to take this case? The "praise for a good deed done" (I like that terminology) really works with guys. How many guys do you see posting on here confused about what their girlfriends want/like? Make sure you let them know and are really appreciative when they do nice things for you. Don't take it for granted. He's being a great boyfriend when he does nice things--make sure you let him know! That ensures they will keep it coming. But what you can do is, if you are hanging out with him one night and want a little affection, just say "I really liked it that one time when you [fill in the blank]. That made me feel really [fill in the blank]." Do you think he will jump to do that again? I think so. I fully believe that men really enjoy it a lot when they do things that make us happy. I don't know if you've read any John Gray, but he advocates giving guys indirect compliments. In my experience, this works. This, in a nutshell, means telling him how he makes you feel, not throwing compliments directly at him. (Not that you shouldn't tell him if you think he's looking good from time to time!) But, you say "I really like spending time with you" instead of "You are so easy to be with" or "That really makes sense" instead of "You are so smart" or "I am so glad we went to see this movie" instead of "You sure know how to pick a good movie." See? I don't know, it may be psych mumbo jumbo, but I've really found that guys respond better to these types of compliments, because they insinuate that the guy is making YOU happy, which they all like to do very much, at least in my view. Guys like to know that the results of their decisions and actions are appreciated. (Keep in mind, this is just my view and is what has worked for me--everyone is different.) Men are wired differently from us--we like personal compliments, right? Well, they do too, from time to time, but I've gotten the best "results" (bad word, but I can't think of another) with the indirect compliments. I make no comment whatsoever and that's my problem. Get up and go to the bathroom when he bores you. That will hopefully give him time to come up with something more exciting to discuss, other than the nail in the wall. Link to post Share on other sites
InDoubt Posted July 31, 2003 Share Posted July 31, 2003 I always thought that being a doormat means that you accept people's behaviour that affects you in a negative way. The only thing he's done really that affects me in any negative way is not shaving, really (and even that is a personal matter whether he shaves or not). I mean, I cannot so much as imply: "I won't put up with your treating me to coffee instead of dinner" or "I won't put up with your coming empty handed". I have no trouble whatsoever indicating to him how far I want him to go, say, sexually, or tell that "I am busy tonight, let's get together another day" when he asks me out, etc etc. Where I have trouble are the cases where I don't have much saying, where I would be limiting his rights of choice if I said something. In the same way, I would be really upset if he made negative comments about how, say, my eyebrows are shaped funny or how my shirt is not ironed well (and that's what I meant by nail: he was playing with my hand all night, but he made it obvious that the one chipped nail on my hand was a cacophony...). Things that are totally a personal choice and is none of my business to comment on. Do I make any sense? Link to post Share on other sites
clia Posted July 31, 2003 Share Posted July 31, 2003 I always thought that being a doormat means that you accept people's behaviour that affects you in a negative way. True. But to me it also means accepting behavior that you may not realize at the time affects you in a negative way. (Ah, hindsight.) It means to me being so caught up in "early love feelings" that you are willing to put up with anything to see him or be with him. It means ditching your friends when he calls at the last minute, accepting it when he cancels on you for no reason at the last minute, accepting it when he says he'll call and he doesn't, accepting it when he picks you apart (more on that below), accepting it when he acts rudely or inconsiderately toward you, etc. I think while these things fit into your definition, a lot of this covers ground where women don't even realize they are being doormats. (Does that make sense?) They get so caught up in how they feel about they guy that they neglect to notice how he may feel about them, which is apparent through the aforementioned actions. I don't necessarily think you are exhibiting "doormat" behavior. You haven't been seeing him long enough, in my opinion, to establish that. I mean, you've only known this guy a month. You are still trying to figure him out and figure out if he is the right guy for you, right? You followed his lead, and his personality is showing through. And you aren't thrilled with what you are seeing. So from here on out, it is either "doormat," see if he is capable of what you want, or find another guy. Things that are totally a personal choice and is none of my business to comment on. Do I make any sense? Absolutely. You can't change him. He is how he is. I'm not saying to change him--I'm saying to understand what he is capable of, or what he is willing to do to get such an awesome woman as yourself. The point is to get to the bottom of who he is. In my view, his not shaving falls into this category also. He's been seeing you for a month, yet he didn't deem you worthy of shaving for one of your dates? That says a lot to me. He no longer feels like he needs to impress you at all. To me, a month is too early for that unless he was so busy he simply did not have time to shave. (But for three days...also depends on how good he looks without shaving...ha ha) He's already trying to see how little he can get away with, in my opinion. I'm not saying if he shows up at your door without having shaved you should ditch him immediately, but...I don't know. I really don't know how you handle that other than to not encourage it when he so explicitly brings it up. To me, his bringing it up was looking for some kind of sign from you that this behavior is okay with him for the future. Well, you know it's not. You need to indirectly let him know that. Am I making any sense? If this was a longer term guy, you could certainly mention it in a playful way, but at a month it's questionable. I still think he is just trying to see how much he can get away with. And you need to put him in his place. Because you are worth more than that. Link to post Share on other sites
vixen Posted July 31, 2003 Share Posted July 31, 2003 couldn't agree more. and i think sometimes the old school childish comments might still help. for instance the face hair. Hmm excuses, It's to itchy i can't kiss you, you look so much older with it. Or if he's one of those guys, is that your natural color??? I love your advice clia, i mean the whole, "I really like spending time with you" instead of "You are so easy to be with" or "That really makes sense" instead of "You are so smart" or "I am so glad we went to see this movie" instead of "You sure know how to pick a good movie." That was fabulouse. I will do that from now on. Besides if i compliment jon he just says I know. Which irratates me to know end, i've come up with calling him a jerk when he does it. And giving him "the look" You know the "you've gone to far" look. but your way is much better, now i can compliment him and he can't say I know, or he can, and it would be less ego more i'm aware of how you feel. Wow dude, you rock!! Like tuesday i said, you look good in that hat. he said i know, i said jerk, he said, you know im just kidding. I should say instead, I like you in that hat. this way if he says I know, then it's more like he's aware i would find that attractive. Still egotistical, but hey, i like it bettter that way. Thanks Clia Link to post Share on other sites
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