Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster > Christianity

[electric_sheep]

I can just as easily say that you are and other athiests/agnostics are transvestites from transsexual transylvania here for the purpose of fulfilling some sick fantasy, and tell you to prove me wrong.

 

This is precisely why the onus of proof is on the one making claims. If I come up with an idea or a theory, it's not the responsibility of others to disproof it. It's my responsibility to proof it.

 

Einstein didn't just come up with the idea of relativity and leave it at that. He didn't expect you to believe it on faith. Rather, he demonstrated how his theories could predict and interpret things about the universe. People checked, and sure enough, he was right.

[electric_sheep]

In case anybody doesn't get it, yes... the Flying Spaghetti Monster is a joke.

 

It's a joke meant to highlight just how inane the "faith" argument is. After all, why don't any of you have faith in the Flying Spaghetti Monster? You may laugh and think the people that do are idiots. Well, that's exactly what we think of you. The "joke" is in making an equivalence. Most religious arguments would logically be the same if you substituted "Flying Spaghetti Monster" for God. When substituted in this manner, the sheer idiocy and inaneness of the argument becomes apparent to all involved.

 

The reason religion "works" to begin with is because religious systems are propagated via mass indoctrination. Indoctrination that starts at a very young age. If you don't think this is true, think for a moment about the geographic relativeness of religious systems. People born in the middle east are overwhelmingly Islamic. People born in the West, to Christian parents, are overwhelmingly Christian. People born in India are overwhelmingly Hindu. Religion is culturally propagated. If you were born into a Western Christian household, then chances are you are Christian. All of the squabbling over the specifics and minutia is really just cultural squabbling. You're reading the Bible right now and not the Koran simply because you were born in Missouri or Idaho. Christianity is a part of our Western cultural tradition. People in other parts of the world don't think the Bible is any more divinely inspired than Moby Dick or Bonfire of the Vanities.

 

And if you're inclined to think that God has simply revealed himself in a different manner around the world, well then stop nagging us with all the damn minutia of your Bible. Please stop fighting over all the insipid details! How can we take all the details of the "message" seriously, giving all the troublesome contradictions, from one religious system to the next. Funny how the adherents of all of these systems have lots of "proof". Funny how good God is at doing a disappearing act.

 

The reason people suddenly "find Jesus" in the US is because they never really lost him. The memory of all that religious upbringing is like a comfortable, warm blanket. Something traumatic happens in their life, and they feel lost and helpless, and they go back to something that makes them feel good. How often do you hear about people reporting to have found Vishnu? Probably not often. I'm sure it happens all the time in India though.

 

People are too scared to face a reality without the support religion provides them, so they cling to it like a toddler clings to his blanket. Showing any doubt at all is considered the first steps to Hell. The more adamant and absolutist the believer, the greater his fear. He fears so much, he can't even allow his mind to foster the slightest doubt. He is afraid the entire scaffolding will crumble around him, and he will find him/herself in a nihilist nightmare.

 

This is the reason religion is colliding with science right now. Science is fine so long as it doesn't challenge any of the old ideas of religion. Computer science, electronics, volcanology... anything that doesn't cast a shadow of doubt on the old ideas of religion is fine. It's when these old ideas get threatened, by say Geologists (yes, the Earth is older than 6000 years), or Darwin, that the uproar begins. They cling to their old ideas fiercely, ignoring all evidence to the contrary.

[Moose]

For someone who's so down on religion, you sure put alot of effort into your posts.....

 

Now.....if you knew how ridiculous all of your spouting sounds to a believer you wouldn't waste your time.

 

None of what you posted is even close to reality.....for instance, Christianity is spreading ALL over the world. Hindus are converting, Islamists are converting, Jews are converting, Christian Churches are going up literally everywhere.....

 

You think there are troublesome contradictions where we see the whole story, not bits and pieces pre selected to debate and divide over....

 

Finally, now True Believer would dismiss Science at all. We will admit that we don't fully understand how the world was created, we just know Who created it....

 

So......equally, you drive us nuts just as much as we drive you nuts....I won't win here, and you should realize that you won't either....

[FleshNBones]

So......equally, you drive us nuts just as much as we drive you nuts....I won't win here, and you should realize that you won't either....

I think it is the lack of respect that drives us nuts.

[Moose]

I think it is the lack of respect that drives us nuts.

That's a river that flows both ways....

 

Most of what "our" battles are about is the offense we natural take when we're called idiots, or unreasonable, or not open minded enough to consider one side or the other.

 

We all have innate properties, and what happens to be true in all of us is the fact that everyone believes we have had to come from somewhere....my position is that we're just too naive to think we'll ever find that answer....

 

As for me and my house, I will serve God as my creator....all others have the option to opt out....

[FleshNBones]

The reason people suddenly "find Jesus" in the US is because they never really lost him. The memory of all that religious upbringing is like a comfortable, warm blanket. Something traumatic happens in their life, and they feel lost and helpless, and they go back to something that makes them feel good. How often do you hear about people reporting to have found Vishnu? Probably not often. I'm sure it happens all the time in India though.

 

People are too scared to face a reality without the support religion provides them, so they cling to it like a toddler clings to his blanket. Showing any doubt at all is considered the first steps to Hell. The more adamant and absolutist the believer, the greater his fear. He fears so much, he can't even allow his mind to foster the slightest doubt. He is afraid the entire scaffolding will crumble around him, and he will find him/herself in a nihilist nightmare.

 

This is the reason religion is colliding with science right now. Science is fine so long as it doesn't challenge any of the old ideas of religion. Computer science, electronics, volcanology... anything that doesn't cast a shadow of doubt on the old ideas of religion is fine. It's when these old ideas get threatened, by say Geologists (yes, the Earth is older than 6000 years), or Darwin, that the uproar begins. They cling to their old ideas fiercely, ignoring all evidence to the contrary.

The courageous athiest. So resolute in his belief system that he is the first one out the door when things get weird. There is always a logical explanation. The evidence is fine as long as the outliers are ignored.

 

The only problem with a spiritual world is that athiests are at its mercy. I don't think ignoring it will make it go away.

 

I know some childish people here are just being rebellious. Some of them will eventually grow out of it.

[Lookingforward]

Let's say that you believe that people who do not know Jesus as their Savior would go to hell when they die. If you loved and cared for other people, then wouldn't you want to witness to them and tell them about Jesus?

 

That's why Christians witness, cause they care about the "afterlife" you could say, or eternity, and based on beliefs, want people to be forever ok, you see what I mean?

 

Peace and God bless

 

So people that may believe in a God but not in Christianity per se will go to hell ?

 

fwiw I believe the passage said that those who have been shown the way and reject it are the ones going to hell........not those that have never BEEN told....

[disgracian]

Finally, now True Believer would dismiss Science at all. We will admit that we don't fully understand how the world was created, we just know Who created it....

Congratulations on the most self-contradictory statement I've read all week. (Assuming of course you meant "no" when you said "now".)

 

And of course unless, by True Believer, you mean somebody who accepts evolution, and an earth that is millions of years old, in which case I take it all back.

 

Cheers,

D.

[Moose]

Congratulations on the most self-contradictory statement I've read all week. (Assuming of course you meant "no" when you said "now".)

 

And of course unless, by True Believer, you mean somebody who accepts evolution, and an earth that is millions of years old, in which case I take it all back.

Yes, I did mean, "no".

 

I do believe humans can and have adapted to their enviroment over the course of time. (This isn't to say that we came from goo though.) As far as how old the earth is, no one really knows that for sure. Scriptures don't tell us either. So I can't say one way or the other.

 

What I do know is that I'm promised these things will be revealed to me in an instant when I'm finally in His presence.

[Desperado620]

I'm not very old, nor am I truly wise in the ways of the world, but I definately want to add my two cents.

 

I was born and raised a Catholic, and always found mass BORING. As I entered my teenage years I wondered how there could be a God that cared for us, seeing all the horror in today's world. I turned to ancient and different religions hoping to find answers there. I studied a little of Wiccanism, Bhuddism, Islam, Judaism (sp?), and some Native American religions.

 

What I found is that there are basic tenets of faith that most modern religions share. Ultimately, there is but one God, although the name can not be agreed upon. This God wants little from us. For us to be good to each other. To have faith in something, because faith (not just in God but in people, principles) makes us strong. To care for those less fortunate or less strong. Why? Because what goes around comes around. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

 

Someone once told me (and I forget who it was) that the Bible is a guide, made of stories to help you live your life well. It's because of this I hate getting into religious arguments, so you won't see me posting on this thread again, but I had to contribute.

 

No matter what name you call your God, have great faith, and treat your brothers and sisters on this Earth with care.

 

Blessed Be, Amen, etc.

[electric_sheep]

Ultimately, there is but one God, although the name can not be agreed upon.

 

There are polytheistic faiths out there still. Hinduism, for one, and virtually all indigenous people incorporate polytheism, animism, etc...

 

I don't consider their faiths to be any less valid than anyone else's. They simply haven't been as successful at propagating it. Their faiths are dying off due to missionary work, mainly from Islam and Christianity. Ancient african beliefs are under serious threat from Islam in the north, where local religions are virtually gone. Same in Asia and Oceania. Either Christianity or Islam have supplanted them for the most part, though usually they incorporate their local customs/beliefs to one degree or another. He with the biggest sword gets his way.

 

It's a particularly easy sell too... we've been so successful at conquering other people, and at manipulating the environment via technology and science, that clearly our God must be better than their God(s).

[I Luv the Chariot OH]

Moose, I'm truly not trying to be insulting, but every post you've posted in this thread makes you look sort of insane. Because you think you need god and therefore everyone else does, and god overrides logic, and your god is better than every other god, does not make it so in reality.

 

You're right, we don't know the "exact" age of the earth--but we've found rocks that have dated back 3.8-3.9 billion years, so by logic (which I enjoy), that means the world is at least 3.8 billion years old. And you're right again, "scriptures" don't age the earth outright (although according to the timeline given directly from the bible, it is between 4000 and 6000 BCE), but that's because they're more concerned with controlling people than the truth

 

I understand Christians are supposed to stick their fingers in their ears and say LA LA LA every time they hear something they don't like, but repeating something empty over and over doesn't make you more convincing, and that sort of mentality just shows how silly Christianity is. My god is the Flying Spaghetti Monster--nobody has ever been killed, ostracized, or hated on his account, and for that reason he is a million times better (for me) than your silly god. Who are you to tell me my belief isn't as good as yours?

[Moose]

Because you think you need god and therefore everyone else does, and god overrides logic, and your god is better than every other god, does not make it so in reality.

Well, I believe you'll have the chance to tell that to Himself when you meet Him....trust me, this will not go over well...

You're right, we don't know the "exact" age of the earth--but we've found rocks that have dated back 3.8-3.9 billion years, so by logic (which I enjoy)

Man's logic is nowhere near perfect.....but hey....whatever floats your boat....

but that's because they're more concerned with controlling people than the truth

Whatever you think friend. I do know that one who follows Scripture sure leads and lives a more peaceful life than the average Joe who doesn't.

I understand Christians are supposed to stick their fingers in their ears and say LA LA LA every time they hear something they don't like,

Evidence right here that you haven't a clue about Christianity. True believers would listen then test what's been said with Scripture. Scripture wins each and every time.

Who are you to tell me my belief isn't as good as yours?

According to my God, someone who's doing their job....

[I Luv the Chariot OH]

Evidence right here that you haven't a clue about Christianity. True believers would listen then test what's been said with Scripture. Scripture wins each and every time.

I know more than I'd like to about Christianity--I wouldn't be "attacking" something I had no idea about. I was a Christian for five years, and I've almost completed a minor in Religious Studies based in Christianity--just because I am open-minded enough to see how silly Christianity is doesn't mean I don't know anything about it

 

If a Christian "doing his job" is telling everyone they're "wrong" and "going to hell" because they don't believe in your nonsense, then you've already proven my point.

 

Isn't it funny that circular reasoning is a logical fallacy in every tradition in history EXCEPT Christianity?

[I Luv the Chariot OH]

On that note, how much do YOU know about the history of Christianity? Did you know that it is/was mainly used as a justification to marginalize and often destroy "outside" groups, and to enforce the dominant structure of upper soceity? Did you know the single biggest genocide in history was done by Christian missionaries "saving the heathens"?

 

I emphasize this because mentalities like yours are dangerous--Christians who think they can defy logic and order by any means necessary, imposing beliefs not because it works or makes sense for other people, but because, ultimately, it to make people easier to control. THAT is real evil, to me.

[electric_sheep]

Well, I believe you'll have the chance to tell that to Himself when you meet Him....trust me, this will not go over well...

 

Ha!

 

Hell knowith no fury like that of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Try explaining to It why you didn't honor his tasty pasta tentacles.

[electric_sheep]

True believers would listen then test what's been said with Scripture. Scripture wins each and every time.

 

You take Scripture as your axiomatic foundation.

 

Any system of logic will have an axiomatic basis, but I'm not sure of the meaningfulness of considering the "truthfulness" of them. It may be more interesting to consider the usefulness of them. Axioms in science are considered useful if they predict useful things about the world. Axioms in mathematics not only lead to interesting and fun logical systems, but these systems are useful in other fields as well, such as science, economics, etc... Indeed, the interplay between math and the physical sciences is so successful it tempts one to almost want to apply the word "truth" to it, but I'd resist the temptation.

 

I can see how your axiomatic foundation of scripture can be useful for you in your day to day life. However, it's useless to use inferences from this system in a debate with other people who don't accept it. People who are Islamic, Hindu, or whatever.

 

Some of the religious people on this board wonder why the rest of us get irritated with Christians... well, mainly it's because they try and use this "system", with it's scriptural axiomatic foundation, to try and influence public policy. Restricting stem cell research, for example, or sodomy laws, or attempting to amend the constitution to fit their idea of marriage, outlawing abortion, or even something as mundane as me not being able to buy some Bourbon on a Sunday. It's... well, irritating. There are plenty of people here that don't believe your basic "axiom".

 

Personally, I'm somewhat libertarian when it comes to civil rights issues, and I don't want the Government telling what I can or cannot do, within reason. I want the "axiomatic" system that is used to determine public policy to be as small as possible, so as to allow individuals the leeway to apply their own axiomic system as they see fit, whatever that system may be.

[elaina]

Likewise, I speak up because I care as well. I want people to recognise their kinship with every other human and living creature on this planet (and the planet as well for that matter) because I think it's vital to the continued survival of the species. This cannot be accomplished with the exclusivist and horribly primitive and tribal belief systems we have today.

 

Cheers,

D.

 

Hi Disgracian,

 

Yeah it's important that people recognizes the importance and value of every human and living creature I agree with you on that, but do you think that people believing in God cannot care for others and the earth?

 

Peace

[disgracian]

Yeah it's important that people recognizes the importance and value of every human and living creature I agree with you on that, but do you think that people believing in God cannot care for others and the earth?

Hi elaina,

 

Not at all. It's not that they can't, it's just that a lot of them don't. Christianity asserts that man has dominion over the planet and all its inhabitants, and while it's true that some of them see this as a role of responsible caretaker as well, just as many if not more don't. There are also a small (but frighteningly influential) group who are actively trying to bring about the end of the world as described in Revelations who frequently advise the current US government. But I am digressing again.

 

So, what I'm saying is that while there is nothing inherent about belief in god that divides people (indeed, it could (if done right) be the biggest unifying force imaginable), the Abrahamic religions in specific do divide and devalue people. I find them truly awful things, and in order to be of one of these religions and be a good person in this day and age, a believer has to ignore a lot of what their holy books have to say. If somebody did base all their behaviour on the commandments in those books, they would quickly find themselves either in prison or an insane asylum.

 

Cheers,

D.

[elaina]

Hi elaina,

 

Not at all. It's not that they can't, it's just that a lot of them don't.

 

Hello. Yeah that's true a lot don't and that's sad.

 

Christianity asserts that man has dominion over the planet and all its inhabitants, and while it's true that some of them see this as a role of responsible caretaker as well, just as many if not more don't.

 

Well, to me I don't really see it as dominion but more as caretaker... like a gardener who doesn't own the land but who takes care of the grounds... I believe God owns the land and we are to take care of it but obviously haven't been doing a very good job in many areas.

 

There are also a small (but frighteningly influential) group who are actively trying to bring about the end of the world as described in Revelations who frequently advise the current US government. But I am digressing again.

 

So, what I'm saying is that while there is nothing inherent about belief in god that divides people (indeed, it could (if done right) be the biggest unifying force imaginable),

 

That is very true - that it could be the biggest unifying force imaginable... especially if you saw God, right? or saw concrete evidence that you really know without a doubt He is and who He is, yeah?

 

Sometimes I wonder why God doesn't show Himself to more people, but it's cause God wants us to have faith in Him and seek Him.

 

the Abrahamic religions in specific do divide and devalue people. I find them truly awful things, and in order to be of one of these religions and be a good person in this day and age, a believer has to ignore a lot of what their holy books have to say.

 

Hmm. I understand what you mean but I think it depends on how you see something, like what color glasses you're wearing for example... I'm going to put a thread on Jonah here on this site and I'm bracing myself already cause I already know people aren't gonna look at it the same way I do, but yeah I understand why... I just see it different cause I have a different perspective. I would be interested in your opinion if you have time, and if you have any questions I might not be able to answer them but I could think about them.

 

If somebody did base all their behaviour on the commandments in those books, they would quickly find themselves either in prison or an insane asylum.

 

Cheers,

D.

 

Peace Disgracian

[disgracian]

Well, to me I don't really see it as dominion but more as caretaker... like a gardener who doesn't own the land but who takes care of the grounds... I believe God owns the land and we are to take care of it but obviously haven't been doing a very good job in many areas.

I agree on both counts.

That is very true - that it could be the biggest unifying force imaginable... especially if you saw God, right? or saw concrete evidence that you really know without a doubt He is and who He is, yeah?

That would certainly help. I think most people are the same, they go where the evidence leads them.

Peace Disgracian

And to you.

 

Cheers,

D.

[FleshNBones]

If somebody did base all their behaviour on the commandments in those books, they would quickly find themselves either in prison or an insane asylum.

 

Cheers,

D.

 

Peace Disgracian

There are enough laws in this country to fill a library, and they are written in a language of their own. If a certain someone cannot handle 10 rules, that certain someone may already be insane.

[I Luv the Chariot OH]

There are enough laws in this country to fill a library, and they are written in a language of their own. If a certain someone cannot handle 10 rules, that certain someone may already be insane.

Perhaps you're talking about the law "Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" (Leviticus 19:19), or, one of my personal favourites--"If you hear it said . . . that wicked men have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" . . . you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. Destroy it completely, both its people and its livestock" (Deuteronomy 17:2-7). Such healthy, tolerant laws--kill anyone who has different beliefs from you (even their animals, who have no choice in the matter). Yeah, this is why I love Christianity <3

[FleshNBones]

Perhaps you're talking about the law "Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" (Leviticus 19:19), or, one of my personal favourites--"If you hear it said . . . that wicked men have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" . . . you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. Destroy it completely, both its people and its livestock" (Deuteronomy 17:2-7). Such healthy, tolerant laws--kill anyone who has different beliefs from you (even their animals, who have no choice in the matter). Yeah, this is why I love Christianity <3

I am not an Orthodox Jew.

 

BTW tolerance is a Christian idea.

[Enema]

BTW tolerance is a Christian idea.

 

LoL. Substantiate this.