pelicanpreacher Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 pelic, that's the point, they don't and sometimes those that are merely "attempting" actually DO, but that said, addressing the OP, given the history she is probably correct that it is purely an attempt to manipulate the estranged H, and should an attempt succeed I don't see where is fair to "blame" the OP. In a perfect world most would reasonably come to that conclusion but, we live in the world we're in and death by suicide will always raise more questions than answers so its best to do everything possible to assure that any accidental misadventures don't occur while she's being treated until all parties are sure she's got a clean bill of health. If she is still determined to commit suicide no matter what then they have no other choice in the matter except to institutionalize her until she is proven fit again. There will still be questions and blame placed upon the affair for pushing her over the edge but, at least she'll be alive to potentially heal and live to fight another day. If, however, its all a matter of manipulation she will soon find out that the path she's chosen leaves her vulnerable to the whims of others regarding the control she has over her own life which will hopefully make her think long and hard before she takes this type of ruse too far! "Grass is on the field". "Play Ball"! Link to post Share on other sites
Lookingforward Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 In a perfect world most would reasonably come to that conclusion but, we live in the world we're in and death by suicide will always raise more questions than answers so its best to do everything possible to assure that any accidental misadventures don't occur while she's being treated until all parties are sure she's got a clean bill of health. If she is still determined to commit suicide no matter what then they have no other choice in the matter except to institutionalize her until she is proven fit again. There will still be questions and blame placed upon the affair for pushing her over the edge but, at least she'll be alive to potentially heal and live to fight another day. If, however, its all a matter of manipulation she will soon find out that the path she's chosen leaves her vulnerable to the whims of others regarding the control she has over her own life which will hopefully make her think long and hard before she takes this type of ruse too far! "Grass is on the field". "Play Ball"! Yes, she could find herself hospitalised anyway......... Link to post Share on other sites
pelicanpreacher Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 We had some guy who wanted to get out of the Marine Corps so bad, he claimed he was suicidal and said that over one weekend he tried to kill himself by overdosing on aspirin. DNR If one is going to going to take themselves out, do it with some flare. Jump off of a building dressed in a clown suit. They should Section 8 this guy just for being that stupid! :lmao::lmao::lmao: Did he get Dishonorably Discharged, Levinsworth, or both? Link to post Share on other sites
marlena Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 I think what Marlena was saying (and I may be wrong) was that the son, even though an adult and capable of rational thought, might not see his mother's suicide as a consequence strictly encompassed within her own responsibility, but instead, may blame himself or others involved for the reasons behind her death. Yes, this is exactly what I was trying to say. Although he is an adult, she IS his mother and probably loves her very much. No matter how much he tries to rationalize the matter in the event that she does go through with it, his emotions will get in the way and out of grief and rage even, he will put the blame on the OW and his father most likely. It is all too human a reaction. The same could happen with the MM. Regardless of how much he loves the OW, he could eventually turn against her and transfer the blame onto her and himself should things go down such a tragic path. It is known to happen. Although it is very likely that she is using the threat of suicide as a tool to manipulate her husband into staying and leaving the OW, one JUST NEVER KNOWS. Does one take the risk? Is it a risk worth taking? I personally would not want to be a part of any of this. I could never live with myself if she did go through with it. No matter how I tried to rationalize the situation and hold onto the belief that each person is accountable for his/her actions, emotionally, I would feel guilty and responsible for the rest of my life. That is why I would get out of the entire messy situation. But that´s just me. The OP needs to ask herself how she thinks she would react or feel if indeed this woman followed through with her threats. I also agree that any threat of suicide should be taken seriously. It is not very hard to go off the deep end in a moment of complete and utter despair. Link to post Share on other sites
Lizzie60 Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 Although I can agree with the precept that someone might use suicide to manipulate others but, the question still begs as to how she would know how many pills is one pill too many? There are countless deaths attributed to "suicide through misadventure" by someone taking one too many pills or a dangerous "cocktail" of medication. Anna Nicole Smith springs to mind as the most recently famous case in point. Since this woman is not a doctor nor probably has any significant medical background to speak of I'd say that any time she attempts suicide she should be taken seriously! I agree.. it's hard to know.. BUT if she holds people around her hostages with this tactic.. then maybe she deserves to take that one too many pill.. Link to post Share on other sites
marlena Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 Lizzie, I agree. I say, you don´t want me once, I don´t want you a hundred times over. Good riddance!! But not everyone thinks like this. Some people are just too co-dependent on their partners and losing them is like a near-death situation. Not good. If only peopled valued themselves and their independence more!! No one is worth dying for. Link to post Share on other sites
Nevermind Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 Mh. Somebody who is in a corner, emotionally drained and confused, who tries to manipulate somebody deserves to die? Awesome attitude. Manipulation is bad, and she does not deserve to be praised for it, quite the contrary, but saying that she deserves to die, as Lizzy did, is just sick. Link to post Share on other sites
Lookingforward Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 I think it sets a bad precedent to tell an OW she should "back off" if the W threatens suicide Just my 2 cents worth and I don't think that's exactly what lizzie was saying nevermind Link to post Share on other sites
Nevermind Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 I agree.. it's hard to know.. BUT if she holds people around her hostages with this tactic.. then maybe she deserves to take that one too many pill.. Oh, really? Link to post Share on other sites
Lookingforward Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 Oh, really? maybe she's fed up with the "victim mentality" - I dunno more like she was saying "you wanna play with fire one day you'll get burned" Link to post Share on other sites
Lizzie60 Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 maybe she's fed up with the "victim mentality" - I dunno more like she was saying "you wanna play with fire one day you'll get burned" Yes I am fed up with the victim mentality.. if she is going to hold everyone around her on egg shells for the rest of their lives.. then yes... she should take that one extra pill.. I can't stand people like that... they are manipulative and extremely selfish... Link to post Share on other sites
pelicanpreacher Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 Yes I am fed up with the victim mentality.. if she is going to hold everyone around her on egg shells for the rest of their lives.. then yes... she should take that one extra pill.. I can't stand people like that... they are manipulative and extremely selfish... Lizzie, If I even hallucinate that you're anywhere near my hospital bed I'm calling security!! Link to post Share on other sites
Lizzie60 Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 Lizzie, If I even hallucinate that you're anywhere near my hospital bed I'm calling security!! As long as I'm not the 'hostage' ... you're safe.. Link to post Share on other sites
Lizzie60 Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 Yes I am fed up with the victim mentality.. if she is going to hold everyone around her on egg shells for the rest of their lives.. then yes... she should take that one extra pill.. I can't stand people like that... they are manipulative and extremely selfish... Oh and I should add.. let's say she keeps this 'manipulative' tactic.. I bet anything that more people will eventually and secretly wish she takes that one extra pill.. Link to post Share on other sites
Nevermind Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 Oh yes, and by adding a cute yellow smiley you turn it into fun and games, right? :sick: Link to post Share on other sites
Tomcat33 Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 I do a lot. I fight a lot of depression. I am all about facing my doubt and pain and overcoming it. No my thought of possible suicide would be like if I was terribly injured or if I suffered from a incurable disease. DNR Oh I see so you do have your own breaking point or threshold when it comes to suicide. Funny you can't see that for others their threshold is something else. Of course they are selfish and out of line, but if you had a terrible injury that is justifiable. It just amazes me the amount of critical remarks and double standards I see for people in pain. "If it happens to me and within what I deem is ok then that's fine if it happens to others then they are just weak and selfish" pffft. Link to post Share on other sites
OWoman Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 I would think common sense would mandate that the counsellor instruct all parties directly or indirectly connected to said sucidal person refrain from deliberately provoking further sucide attempts by suspending those activities the sufferer finds traumatizing or completely retracting from the periphery of their patient's consciousness (if possible) until a diagnosis can be determined as to whether the suicidal individual can be successfully treated on an outpatient basis in a timely manner or must be consigned to a sanitarium for a more indepth and extended psychoanalysis' treatment regiment. To completely absolve all parties closely involved with the drama of their behavior's consequences as it impacts upon the fragile mental state of someone contemplating suicide prior to or at the onset of treatment seems counterintuitive to me. JMO. Well, luckily counsellors are not governed by "common sense" but by very strict ethical guidelines which stipulate no such thing! If there is a risk of suicide, get the person to a hospital or clinic immediately! Every state hospital here as a psychiatric emergency unit for just such cases, and you the counsellor are OBLIGED to refer - sending an ambulance out if required - the person past haste. You the counsellor most certainly do not tell any of the other people to adapt their behaviour to comply with the (delusional or manipulative or whatever else) directives of someone who may be a suicide risk. That person will be safely in a rubber room being assessed by professionals, so such advice would anyway be redundant. It's easy for anyone here to claim to be anything they want. Tossing jargon around doesn't convince anyone of authenticity. it just confuses people and makes them skip to the next post. If anyone is in doubt what a REAL counsellor would advise, pick up the phone and phone Life Line or the Samaritans or whichever organisation operates in your area and get REAL advice from REAL people who've been trained and certified to practice. Do not take as gospel what someone on an anonymous internet forum claims to be truth. Link to post Share on other sites
herenow Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 Saying that the RESPONSIBILITY for an action rests with that person is not the same as laying BLAME for that action. The people involved with the person DO usually blame themselves, but the responsibility for the action lies with the person who took that action. If on the other hand, someone is trying to manipulate with threats then giving in to them is exactly their goal. So, when the OW went to the hospital to make it look like she had tried to commit suicide and then later used suicide as a manipulation threat, my H and I should have just ignored it? Wow, how easy that would have been. I guess I was wrong to try and treat her gently so that she wouldn't do anything rash. Silly me. Link to post Share on other sites
marlena Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 Wow, how easy that would have been. I guess I was wrong to try and treat her gently so that she wouldn't do anything rash. Silly me. No, you did the most humane and kindest thing possible. That says a lot about your own character. Good for you. Link to post Share on other sites
OWoman Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 So, when the OW went to the hospital to make it look like she had tried to commit suicide and then later used suicide as a manipulation threat, my H and I should have just ignored it? Wow, how easy that would have been. I guess I was wrong to try and treat her gently so that she wouldn't do anything rash. Silly me. HN, should or shouldn't depends on what you're going to find easier to live with afterward. You have no control over the life of another - you could have treated her as gently as you like and should could still have taken her life - or you could have laughed in her face and dared her, and calling her bluff could have shocked her cout of it - there's no way of knowing until after the event. All you can do is acto consistently with your own moral compass so that, whatever the outcome, you know you did what you thought was best. The only people who can make the call with any kind of certainty are professionals, and even they don't have a spotless record Link to post Share on other sites
Lookingforward Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 So, when the OW went to the hospital to make it look like she had tried to commit suicide and then later used suicide as a manipulation threat, my H and I should have just ignored it? Wow, how easy that would have been. I guess I was wrong to try and treat her gently so that she wouldn't do anything rash. Silly me. Where did I post you should have ignored it ? I said the ultimate responsibility for the decision is HERS............ plus, every case as I'm sure you are aware is different....and it's not YOUR case I was adressing that post to.. Link to post Share on other sites
Tomcat33 Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 HN, should or shouldn't depends on what you're going to find easier to live with afterward. You have no control over the life of another - you could have treated her as gently as you like and should could still have taken her life - or you could have laughed in her face and dared her, and calling her bluff could have shocked her cout of it - there's no way of knowing until after the event. All you can do is acto consistently with your own moral compass so that, whatever the outcome, you know you did what you thought was best. The only people who can make the call with any kind of certainty are professionals, and even they don't have a spotless record Well I can assure you that laughing in someone's face and daring them to go for it IS NOT the best course of action, even if the person is lying and trying to manipualate. And you don't have to be a councellor to know that much. And I disagree we have no control over someone else's life. When a person is reaching out they need reassurance to laugh in someone's face and to call their bluff is essentially pushing the over the edge. If you can live with that then yes ultimately it is up to each other's moral compass. Link to post Share on other sites
OWoman Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 Well I can assure you that laughing in someone's face and daring them to go for it IS NOT the best course of action, even if the person is lying and trying to manipualate. And you don't have to be a councellor to know that much. TC I would agree that it doesn't appear to be the best course of action. The point I was making is that one can't predict the outcome - one can do what one imagines is the sensible thing - and still get a negative result - or one can do what looks dumb, and get lucky. I use that particular example because I actually witnessed someone doing that, and the result of it. I found it totally shocking at the time - I was much younger; the person who did it was a nurse - and it's not something I'd ever recommend. Which is my point - recommending something which seems sensible to one person may still backfire, and leave the person who was perhaps going to follow another route feeling awful and guilty for not doing what they thought was right. You have no control over another. I've sat and held the hands of dear and close friends and done absolutely everything "right", but still the moment came and they took the gap and killed themselves. One moment's lapse of attention is all it needs. Link to post Share on other sites
Lookingforward Posted July 13, 2008 Share Posted July 13, 2008 The thing I have objected to on this thread is the posters that are recommending that the OP "back off" as the W may be suicidal...and I think that is entirely the wrong message to send. Is this how it is then ? Oh your H left for another woman? Just threaten to commit suicide and she'll back off and he'll come running........... Link to post Share on other sites
Tomcat33 Posted July 14, 2008 Share Posted July 14, 2008 TC I would agree that it doesn't appear to be the best course of action. The point I was making is that one can't predict the outcome - one can do what one imagines is the sensible thing - and still get a negative result - or one can do what looks dumb, and get lucky. I use that particular example because I actually witnessed someone doing that, and the result of it. I found it totally shocking at the time - I was much younger; the person who did it was a nurse - and it's not something I'd ever recommend. Which is my point - recommending something which seems sensible to one person may still backfire, and leave the person who was perhaps going to follow another route feeling awful and guilty for not doing what they thought was right. You have no control over another. I've sat and held the hands of dear and close friends and done absolutely everything "right", but still the moment came and they took the gap and killed themselves. One moment's lapse of attention is all it needs. We are definitely on the same page, I missed your meaning earlier then. Utlimately indeed we have no control over someone's decision. But we can definitely try to influence or steer someone in the right direction in a caring way. To do the best we can is really all we can ask of ourselves. I have seen many times especially on public forums when the topic of suicide comes up there are those that get so enraged with it and start to call the poster threatening to take their life ugly names and accuse them of being seflish weak and a lot of other very negative adjectives, and basically meet the person with doubts with animosity basically the same thing we see around here, people who kick those that are down. That simply is not caring about another. I've seen people go as far as saying "go on do it then if you are so tough then stop talking about it and do it" and I just don't for the life of me understand how people like than can exist. How they can look at themselves in a mirror and think "I am really being the best that I could be" Link to post Share on other sites
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