How far would you go for a job?

[Walk]

How many hoops would you jump through to get a job? Could you give me some examples of things potential employers have asked you to do as an applicant that you felt was beyond reasonable, and did you do it? If so, why?

 

I had an interview with a company last thursday, and at the end (this was the second interview) they told me they want me to complete a test they have to make sure I can really code in C#.net. It requires downloading a trial version of a content management system. And using those components to build a web application.

 

They said it should take me approximately 7 days to complete this.

 

My question is, would you go to such lengths for a job? (Assume the job isn't exactly ideal and it was an hour commute one way)

 

It seems excessive to me. Include the two interviews into the mix, one in which I drove 2 hours to meet with the company.

 

I've spent three days so far downloading, installing and setting up the environment in order to FINALLY get to the point where I could interact with their components.

 

what would you do if you were in this situation? Would you bother with learning the package and writing the application?

[jerbear]

The application test is actually legit provided that they give the same test to all the applicants. It is quite common to test developers by giving them a spec to see if they can actually code and more accurately how they code.

 

I would take the time to learn their stuff and work hard to make sure it does something. You will have to submit the app following their specs as much as possible with error checking.

 

7 days maybe an overestimate but I would work double time to learn their packaging and get portions of the application to work.

 

Also taking a page from rapid prototyping, just get a mock up first to get it working then worry about the final product. Don't worry about optimizing the code, i.e. using "bubble sort" when that is the only algorithm coming in to your head. I would document and comment the heck out of the code.

[quankanne]

if it wasn't particular to the job you're interviewing for, yeah, I'd say it'd be over the top. But in this case, I think they want to see for themselves just what you're capable of – I sat out a year working odd jobs before going back to the world of journalism, and one of the smaller dailies I applied at did something similar to what you described: I had to write a story based on an old UIL contest prompt.

[johan]

If I really wanted the job, I'd do it. If I didn't really want it, I probably wouldn't.

 

One thing to keep in mind: all of your co-workers will have been evaluated the same way (I assume), and so you can expect that they will be a bit better than average. Depending how critically the company evaluates the work.

[Nemo]

Honestly, if you're having this much trouble already, then the job sounds like it's too hard for you.

[MaxManwell]

Just do it, even if it is a take you can keep the program and show other perspective employers what you made.

[Walk]

Also taking a page from rapid prototyping, just get a mock up first to get it working then worry about the final product. Don't worry about optimizing the code, i.e. using "bubble sort" when that is the only algorithm coming in to your head. I would document and comment the heck out of the code.

 

Thank you Jer. I'll try that. I'm kind of thinking Nemo's right though, that the job is beyond my skill set. They want things like "assign 3 additional metadata fields to the primary content block or form that will be used on the templates", and part of it says "store the header Id in the web.config file". I searched google and can't find anything about storing an Id in the .config file.

 

Or.. i.e. "2nd content Id is pulled from metadata of primary content block." I'm assuming the content Id of the scond content block means that it's a child element of the first one... but I've never used metadata to hold that kind of information. I'm not finding many examples of metadata (when searched for it).

 

How do I store an Id of something in the .config file? Why would I store it in the web.config file?

 

Guess I'll go beat my head against the wall a while more with this stupid test. grrrr...

[jerbear]

Sounds like an content management system application.

 

It seems like the app looks at the content and updates the web.config file to designate the contents of that directory.

 

The 2nd or 3rd metadata could be anything to describe the content like using the title being the 1st tag, the 2nd being user tags, then the third being optional user tags.

 

The webconfig file is a text file that you can use a worker process to change the contents of the file.

[Walk]

I can't do this. Youre right Nemo, this is way beyond me. I haven't the first clue what the hecks going on. I can't even get it to set up properly. I thought I had it... but in the manual it says there should be a new option for this cms site in the templates, and there's nothing there.

 

I set up and implemented ajax for .net 2.0 in less then a day. I wrote my own ajax to update records. why is this so friggin' hard to get it to work?

 

**** it. I'll find some where else that needs a stupid programmer. funny that my previous bosses thought I was the bomb as a programmer. Used to use me to train others. guess the last laughs on them. haha

[jerbear]

You know, this sounds like a patch problem that might have broke your app.

 

The ajax apps you've written in the past was database focused? This CMS app is more local text file purpose.

 

I think you are not seeing the tree in the forest. You have writer's block.

 

Some things I've done in the past when I've gotten stuck was to take a break.

[Lookingforward]

I agree with jer...take a step back and breathe....you're overthinking it..........

[jerbear]

I don't know if you are still working on the problem.

 

Here was something I thought about today. What you are trying to do is similar to a listing.

 

In theory, when you are on LS, look under the logo, you can look at the code for "LoveShack.org Community Forums > Platonic > Business and Professional Relationships > How far would you go for a job?" as an example.

 

When you read/write to the web.config, each item is on it's own line. You'll have to parse it to find the stuff you are looking for.

[Walk]

I wrote the guy I interviewed with and told him I wasn't able to do it.

 

I still think they were asking for a hell of a lot from an applicant. I'm pissed. I'm tired of being screwed with. I think its bunk to ask an applicant to learn a proprietary add-in for a job interview. That'd be like having an applicant who told you up front that they have no experience with SAP, interviewing them for hours, and then telling them AT The End that the job is contingient on being able to program in ABAP. And them home to prove they can do it. Its bunk.

 

How can an applicant have 5-8 years experience in the .net 2.0 when it's only been out since 2005? Why are they even interviewing inexperienced programmers with less then 2 years, if what they really want is an experienced programmer?

 

Just feeling really bummed I failed the test. I wasn't even capable of writing the simpliest statement in c#. I'd never even heard of using metadata to control a contentblock before. Don't even know how to write a statement that uses metadata. That was Never covered in college. And sure as heck never saw anything like that at my last position. But they required it be used in the test....

 

I hate being unemployed.

[Walk]

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

 

I don't know if you are still working on the problem.

 

Here was something I thought about today. What you are trying to do is similar to a listing.

 

In theory, when you are on LS, look under the logo, you can look at the code for "LoveShack.org Community Forums > Platonic > Business and Professional Relationships > How far would you go for a job?" as an example.

 

When you read/write to the web.config, each item is on it's own line. You'll have to parse it to find the stuff you are looking for.

 

I've done that before in vb.net. use a xml to parse in links, and linked the path through the webconfig file. Couldn't figure it out with the new component. (I think that's what you were talking about?) I tried that yesterday, and no matter which way I tried it, it kept giving me an error. Not sure what I did wrong, but wasn't working.

 

Thanks again Jer. Sorry I wasted your time.

[Desperado620]

Wow, all that programming mess is way over my head.

 

I see you already told them no. Well, question answered. However, if I really wanted a job, I'd do what they asked me to do for them. It does, however, seem a little extreme to me to have you already do part of the job with no help or training as a "test". I've taken typing tests for secretarial jobs and my husband is a welder, so he takes welding tests all the time, but downloading a program and writing code... seems a little much.

 

I don't know if you do this, but I have a little tip that actually got me my current job. I was in a big field of applicants, so I sent a little card thanking the company for their time in seeing me, telling them what a great work environment they had, and telling them I hoped to be seeing them again soon. I was told later by the office manager that it set me apart and made them realize that I really wanted the job. Just a thought.

 

Good luck!

[jerbear]

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

 

 

 

I've done that before in vb.net. use a xml to parse in links, and linked the path through the webconfig file. Couldn't figure it out with the new component. (I think that's what you were talking about?) I tried that yesterday, and no matter which way I tried it, it kept giving me an error. Not sure what I did wrong, but wasn't working.

 

Have you tried stepping through the code with LOTS of watches and writing to a log?

 

Thanks again Jer. Sorry I wasted your time.

 

Not a waste of my time. I think you can do it. Where is Tanbark when you need him!

[tanbark813]

How do I store an Id of something in the .config file? Why would I store it in the web.config file?

 

For future reference you can store anything (within reason) in a web.config file. For ASP.NET, in the <configuration> section there is an <appSettings> section where you can put custom variables. For example:

 

<configuration>

<appSettings>

<add key="tanbark" value="Tanbark is awesome!" />

</appSettings>

</configuration>

 

You can then retrieve it in the code behind page with:

 

string msg = ConfigurationManager.AppSettings["tanbark"];

 

You typically put things in the web.config file that may change from time to time that shouldn't be hardcoded in the application so you don't have to go edit it and recompile it every time. Database connection strings are a common example.

 

As for the coding sample, it does seem a little excessive. It better be a good company with great pay and benefits to ask that much. In the 8 years I've been a programmer I can only recall one company asking for a coding submission prior to an interview and that one wasn't nearly as complicated as it sounds like yours is/was.

[Walk]

As for the coding sample, it does seem a little excessive. It better be a good company with great pay and benefits to ask that much. In the 8 years I've been a programmer I can only recall one company asking for a coding submission prior to an interview and that one wasn't nearly as complicated as it sounds like yours is/was.

Geez, where do you apply to?? I've been asked for coding submissions out the wazoo.

 

Glad you thought it was excessive. It wasn't even a great job. Pay was in the low 40's, only got into building web sites in the last 2 years (no programming prior to that), and we'd already established I knew more about stored proc's and IIS then the IT manager. I wasn't sure they'd actually be around for the long haul anyway.

 

Thanks for explaining the web.config appSettings. I didn't realize you could put darn near anything in there and retrieve it so easily. Seems rather simple.

[jerbear]

Glad you thought it was excessive. It wasn't even a great job. Pay was in the low 40's, only got into building web sites in the last 2 years (no programming prior to that), and we'd already established I knew more about stored proc's and IIS then the IT manager. I wasn't sure they'd actually be around for the long haul anyway.

After you've mentioned this, this test seems excessive.

[tanbark813]

Glad you thought it was excessive. It wasn't even a great job. Pay was in the low 40's, only got into building web sites in the last 2 years (no programming prior to that), and we'd already established I knew more about stored proc's and IIS then the IT manager.

 

Yeah, asking for a coding submission for a 40K job is completely ridiculous. If you're doing mid to senior level .NET work you should be getting at least double that.

[Angel1111]

I can't do this. Youre right Nemo, this is way beyond me. I haven't the first clue what the hecks going on. I can't even get it to set up properly. I thought I had it... but in the manual it says there should be a new option for this cms site in the templates, and there's nothing there.

 

I set up and implemented ajax for .net 2.0 in less then a day. I wrote my own ajax to update records. why is this so friggin' hard to get it to work?

 

**** it. I'll find some where else that needs a stupid programmer. funny that my previous bosses thought I was the bomb as a programmer. Used to use me to train others. guess the last laughs on them. haha

 

This test seemed way out of your league. I'm just curious as to how you got through 2 interviews and they didn't realize that you weren't right for the job. It seems strange not to fill you in on what the test involved to see if you were even in the ballpark.

 

I definitely have my limits as to what I will do for a job. Some of the big companies have you jumping through hoops like crazy just filling out applications online. I have no patience for that nonsense.

[brothermartin]

Welcome to whats left of our economic work force. I've been unemployed for about 4 months now, and I've jumped through a few hoops trying to get another job. I'm still unemployed. I've decided to go back to school to learn something new, but I also have help. If you think you're being pushed to jumping through hoops for a potential employer, you could just ask the employer. Whatever they say (or don't say) will tell you what you already know.

[jerbear]

Yeah, asking for a coding submission for a 40K job is completely ridiculous. If you're doing mid to senior level .NET work you should be getting at least double that.

 

Glad you thought it was excessive. It wasn't even a great job. Pay was in the low 40's, only got into building web sites in the last 2 years (no programming prior to that), and we'd already established I knew more about stored proc's and IIS then the IT manager. I wasn't sure they'd actually be around for the long haul anyway.

 

I've taken some weird tests to some jobs, one was a mechanical test on what gear D will do when gear A is clockwise, B is counter, and C is blank and connected to D. The same test had simple math questions like 3*7, a+7=4, and other things.

 

Test for a job in the low 40's is excessive. Hopefully this is not a startup with stock options.

[BoooredGuy]

Depends on the job and your career goals.

 

I've had the most random questions asked in interviews (brain teasers such as how many toasters can I fit inside the Empire State building), as well as being grilled at social settings (i.e., dinner interviews) and before panels.

 

I have friends who had to model and develop VBA macros during an interview - the interviewers left the room for about 30 minutes. Bomb the model = no job offer (we are not developers or programmers but modeling is part of the job).

 

I don't think these questions are a stretch at all. Nobody is going to pay someone decent money (or more) if you can't add value.

[tanbark813]

Depends on the job and your career goals.

 

I've had the most random questions asked in interviews (brain teasers such as how many toasters can I fit inside the Empire State building), as well as being grilled at social settings (i.e., dinner interviews) and before panels.

 

I have friends who had to model and develop VBA macros during an interview - the interviewers left the room for about 30 minutes. Bomb the model = no job offer (we are not developers or programmers but modeling is part of the job).

 

I don't think these questions are a stretch at all. Nobody is going to pay someone decent money (or more) if you can't add value.

 

There's a big difference between a brain teaser or 30 minute assignment during an interview and a weeklong project. The former I have no problem with but the latter is overkill. It's also unreasonable to demand that much time of someone when you're not paying them.