Some thoughts on modern marriage

[fral945]

As I read through a lot of these posts, I wonder to myself if we should re-evaluate the standards and expectations for marriage. People seem to comment often on how marriages don't last anymore. I would tend to agree that marriage is not successful today. There are a number of factors, but one of the biggest I see are the increased and very idealized standards and expectations of marriage today.

 

I've read a little about marriage and relationships in history because I wanted to learn more about it. From what I have researched so far, marriage was never about love, romance, or sexual gratification, which seem to be a given part of today's expectations. These seem to be more a result of Western society. It appears (to me at least) Eastern societies had a more practical view on interpersonal relationships and Western had a more idealistic view.

 

From what I can tell, the original purpose of marriage was to gain in-laws (i.e., keep power in certain families) and have children. If love came along after great, but it wasn't absolutely necessary. It seems many men found their sexual gratification outside of marriage (i.e., courtesans, prostitutes, etc.), and it was socially acceptable to do so in many societies. Obviously women didn't have it very well. It doesn't seem that women ever had a place to find romance outside of marriage, so if they weren't getting it from their husband they either found it secretly with lovers or (depending on the society) didn't get it at all.

 

As I see it today, relationships have gotten better for women. Arranged marriage are less common and they have many more rights than any other time in history. For men, I think they have less control and there is less tolerance for sexual gratification outside of marriage.

 

I would guess my opinion on this will be in the minority, but why not lower the standards and expectations of marriage? For men - Why expect one woman to satisfy you sexually your whole life? For women - Why expect one man to be your romantic ideal for your whole life? Allow outlets for men and women to satisfy their desires, and keep the expectations of marriage basic and simple.

 

I know there will be many that will disagree, and I would like to hear some other viewpoints. I am looking at this from a purely pragmatic point of view and what would work. Do you think having lower expectations and standards would make marriage more successful?

[Storyrider]

I've recently come to wonder whether the modern breakdown of marriage was inevitable as soon as women were given the right to have a job and hold property, and then, more recently, access to reliable birth control.

 

For men, marriage was always a choice. Now it is a choice for women too.

 

Add to that our longevity--people's lifetimes are double what they once were--and I think that explains a lot about where marriage is today, without having to blame it on some kind of moral decline.

[jerbear]

As I see it today, relationships have gotten better for women. Arranged marriage are less common and they have many more rights than any other time in history. For men, I think they have less control and there is less tolerance for sexual gratification outside of marriage.

 

I would guess my opinion on this will be in the minority, but why not lower the standards and expectations of marriage? For men - Why expect one woman to satisfy you sexually your whole life? For women - Why expect one man to be your romantic ideal for your whole life? Allow outlets for men and women to satisfy their desires, and keep the expectations of marriage basic and simple.

 

I know there will be many that will disagree, and I would like to hear some other viewpoints. I am looking at this from a purely pragmatic point of view and what would work. Do you think having lower expectations and standards would make marriage more successful?

 

I believe it is quite plausible and can be done but how does one change approximately 2000 years of religion, culture, familiar inprinting, social norms.

 

I do see the Japanese culture having something like what was mentioned above. Unwritten rule where the guy goes out and can have geishas yet still be married. But it is not equal where the woman can have her own "geisha".

[quankanne]

Do you think having lower expectations and standards would make marriage more successful?

 

I think a successful marriage nowadays is less about lowered expectations (though there is that) and standards (that, too, to a degree), but more about the need to lower our expectations of autonomy so that two beings can come together and "meld" into a whole new entity. Because most of us in the Western world have a strong sense of self, but not all of us are capable of sharing or compromising (and that sounds like such a horrible word, but I mean it in the best sense) to allow that melding to take place.

 

mind you, I think the evolution of women's rights as perceived by society has gone a long way in keeping a bride from being a bit of property, but now it's both parties for themselves, not just one (traditionally the groom of old).

 

a successful marriage takes into consideration the needs of both parties, and both can find common ground to exist happily together. It's when one decides his or her needs out-rank his/her spouse's is when it gets sucky.

[Trialbyfire]

In order for a modern marriage to be successful, both parties have to be willing to put the relationship before self. How many people are capable of doing this, appears to be less and less per day.

 

I personally hope that marriage remains an institution for people who are both willing to give and take, holding themselves to a higher standard.

 

Whether it's an institution I'll partake in, in the future, remains to be seen. The older I get, the less I see the advantage to women, unless you're a traditional woman.

[Dark-N-Romantic]

You know a lot of people would laugh about the days of ole and how courting and not having sex before marriage, getting to meet the parents, not shacking up (or as Judge Judy would say, "Playing house without the benefits of marriage."), and all this other non-sense men and women today consider taboo and/or too outdated to work. Too many feel that it is because of these old standards (like two couples making work for the sake of the family or fighting to overcome adultery or even sticking by that person when financial times were terrible). There word was their bond and barring extreme abuse and/oe r totally outrageous acts intended to hurt a person even after they had been warned, these married folks fought for their marriage to the bitter end. Why? Because THEY WHERE AS ONE!

 

Here are some of the issues I see with marriages today...

 

1) We don't train our children how to be married. We teach them how to act around one another. We teach them to go for their goals. We teach them now to find a good college or area of training for their careers. But, we don't teach them how to date/court. We don't teach our girls that love is not spreading your legs for a man before you are wedded. We don't teach our boys that a woman's body should be treated as a temple and that you should seek a temple and not a bordello for a mate.

 

2) We don't loose ourselves to marriage. Have you ever seen a couple who you knew were of different families, yet they are so entwined that they could pass for blood? Very few are the couples you see like that. Why? Because we are all about the individual. We teach couples its to loose one self to their spouse/marriage is wrong, when actually it is the purpose of marriage itself. So, if the two that should be one are acting as individuals, how do we expect them to have a union.

 

3) We fail to accept and desire that the wife is subject unto the husband as the husband is subject to the wife. We want to barter and bargain for affections and expressions of love vice do it because my wife comes before me or my husband must come before me. When they should be like a mind and a body behind the marriage. Just like the mind is useless without a body to transport it and enact its will, a body cannot find desire or power to do anything without the mind. As should be the marriage. If the husband is hurt, the wife hurts, thus, the marriage is hurting. If the wife is worried and upset, the husband should be worried and upset, and thus the marriage will be worried and upset. This is the true nature of marriage.

 

4) We are quick to bolt should things not go our way. We are taught this ludicrous idea that if your husband isn't living up to your expectations, live him girl. Or if your wife isn't performing her duties, homie, get yourself a new woman. We pervert and mock the REAL intent of marriage by telling others, its okay to go if your not happy in your marriage. How many people leave because they don't see them getting the house they wanted? How many spend so much time believing the honeymoon suppose to last forever, and marriage is suppose to be the ultimate bliss and crumble when they can't travel the road once the see how steep some of the mountains are, or how deep that valley can be, or how wide an ocean of storms and waves they will cross. No, they live in a land of fairytale happiness where things are always bright and sunny.

 

These are but a drop in a pond compared to the huge lists of things that is wrong in today's unions. Maybe I will post some more at a later time.

 

 

DNR

[jerbear]

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4) We are quick to bolt should things not go our way. We are taught this ludicrous idea that if your husband isn't living up to your expectations, live him girl. Or if your wife isn't performing her duties, homie, get yourself a new woman. We pervert and mock the REAL intent of marriage by telling others, its okay to go if your not happy in your marriage. How many people leave because they don't see them getting the house they wanted? How many spend so much time believing the honeymoon suppose to last forever, and marriage is suppose to be the ultimate bliss and crumble when they can't travel the road once the see how steep some of the mountains are, or how deep that valley can be, or how wide an ocean of storms and waves they will cross. No, they live in a land of fairytale happiness where things are always bright and sunny.

 

These are but a drop in a pond compared to the huge lists of things that is wrong in today's unions. Maybe I will post some more at a later time.

 

 

DNR

 

Interesting part on #4. I think that maybe somewhat localized to NYC. I noticed the #4 "culture" exists in NYC and Las Vegas. If the relationship is broken on the 1st sign of trouble or conflict, it is easier to bolt and find someone new. Then repeat the process.

 

I've noticed in other cities, i.e. Washington D.C. & Atlanta, once you find someone unless it is a major red flag/red card; or something really bad, the two people try to work it out. At least an attempt is made.

[quankanne]

I'd have to disagree with your observation, jer – it's not so much localized to certain areas, but the mindset seems to be prevalent among baby boomers down. As DNR puts it, we don't train our kids on that creature known as marriage. There's more of an emphasis on self-sufficiency, so much so that two people have a hard time learning how to be one. Because there's ALWAYS the option to leave if someone doesn't like being in the relationship – there's no fighting to keep the marriage alive, you can automatically take the "walk" option and it's all cool. Or better yet, you can opt for a trial marriage and live with someone, then walk when you get tired of the relationship.

[Mr. Lucky]

As DNR puts it, we don't train our kids on that creature known as marriage. There's more of an emphasis on self-sufficiency, so much so that two people have a hard time learning how to be one.

I think you make a good point. I've raised my daughter to be a strong person, to stand up for herself and make her voice heard. Now that she's in her early 20's, I see her struggle in relationships simply because she's so oriented to making her priorities happen that she has a hard time balancing what she wants with what the relationship needs. Maybe that more gentle skill set will take this "instant gratification" generation a longer time to learn...

 

Mr. Lucky

[Stockalone]

I would guess my opinion on this will be in the minority, but why not lower the standards and expectations of marriage? For men - Why expect one woman to satisfy you sexually your whole life? For women - Why expect one man to be your romantic ideal for your whole life? Allow outlets for men and women to satisfy their desires, and keep the expectations of marriage basic and simple.

 

I know there will be many that will disagree, and I would like to hear some other viewpoints. I am looking at this from a purely pragmatic point of view and what would work. Do you think having lower expectations and standards would make marriage more successful?

 

An open marriage certainly won't work for all people.

 

If people can't forsake all others, then they should remain single or find a partner who is o.k. with an open relationship.

 

Aside from that, I think that approaching marriage in a "lowest common denominator" fashion is completely wrong. Why bother getting married if you need to water down it's meaning first?

[Trialbyfire]

An open marriage certainly won't work for all people.

 

If people can't forsake all others, then they should remain single or find a partner who is o.k. with an open relationship.

 

Aside from that, I think that approaching marriage in a "lowest common denominator" fashion is completely wrong. Why bother getting married if you need to water down it's meaning first?

Yup, I agree with this!

[TechDude]

These are but a drop in a pond compared to the huge lists of things that is wrong in today's unions.

 

Excellent post, DNR.

 

My personal opinion is that recent generations seem to expect everything to come too quick and too easily. If things get tough in marriage, then just bail out. They miss out on the deep love and commitment that is learned from battling through these very issues.

[angie2443]

I would guess my opinion on this will be in the minority, but why not lower the standards and expectations of marriage? For men - Why expect one woman to satisfy you sexually your whole life? For women - Why expect one man to be your romantic ideal for your whole life? Allow outlets for men and women to satisfy their desires, and keep the expectations of marriage basic and simple.

 

Why get married if you don't want to be married? If you want a life partner, and you allow others in (sexually or romantically) you take a good chance on destroying your relationship. I've never seen the "open relationship" thing work, although I've heard otherwise. I've seen married partners allow others in and then get more attatched to those others, while their former partner stands out in the cold.

 

I know of a situation right now in which the wife had a husband and a boyfriend. Then she let in another and the boyfriend couldn't handle it. He became the odd man out. The husband didn't seem to care, I'm assuming because he stopped emotionally investing in his wife years ago. He is out of town and apparently enjoying his freedom from his wife and the drama surrounding her while getting close to another woman. It's drama all the way around. It's also very funny because each of these people entered into this relationship with their eyes open and you just feel like shaking your head. Oh well, live and learn, I guess.

 

Anyways, as I was saying above, why get married if you don't want to be with just one person? At least where I'm from, you're free to live however you want.

[Aloros]

I just wanted to add that these posts are a very skewed, very biased perspective of modern marriage. Why do people come to these boards? To post about their PROBLEMS. This is by no means a random sampling of marriage.

 

The majority of marriages I've encountered are very happy, and have lasted for a long time. Not to say the couples I know never bicker or argue, but they communicate, they love one another, and they move on to bigger and better things.

 

I just don't think lowering expectations is the way to a happy marriage.

[fral945]

I forgot about this post. Thanks for all the responses and insights.

 

I hear a lot of you saying failed marriages have a lot to do with selfishness and lack of compromise. Do you think this is a result of the society we live in (at least most Western societies like the U.S.), which are basically capitalistic societies based on "self" and the individual? We are all taught to be independent and think for ourselves (and I've fully embraced that myself). In Eastern societies their seems to be less emphasis on the individual. I'm not sure if marriages in those countries are better or worse, but do you think that the "individual" mentality has hurt our ability to sustain interpersonal relationships?

[Trialbyfire]

I forgot about this post. Thanks for all the responses and insights.

 

I hear a lot of you saying failed marriages have a lot to do with selfishness and lack of compromise. Do you think this is a result of the society we live in (at least most Western societies like the U.S.), which are basically capitalistic societies based on "self" and the individual? We are all taught to be independent and think for ourselves (and I've fully embraced that myself). In Eastern societies their seems to be less emphasis on the individual. I'm not sure if marriages in those countries are better or worse, but do you think that the "individual" mentality has hurt our ability to sustain interpersonal relationships?

No, I think failed marriages fail due to selfishness...period. Blaming society for it would suggest that adults have no free will to be who they want to be.

[fral945]

No, I think failed marriages fail due to selfishness...period. Blaming society for it would suggest that adults have no free will to be who they want to be.

 

But isn't part of selfishness the fact that it has been inculcated in us to put self first? Obviously your can be selfish without being taught to be. I'm not blaming society completely, but our society is "individual" based. The needs of the individual trump the needs of the group.

 

I'm not arguing which one is better, just pointing out that the plethora of failed marriages are partially a result of the way our society is set up and the way we have all been brought up.

[Trialbyfire]

But isn't part of selfishness the fact that it has been inculcated in us to put self first? Obviously your can be selfish without being taught to be. I'm not blaming society completely, but our society is "individual" based. The needs of the individual trump the needs of the group.

 

I'm not arguing which one is better, just pointing out that the plethora of failed marriages are partially a result of the way our society is set up and the way we have all been brought up.

Capitalism has been around in North America forever. The only difference is that in the past, women didn't have rights so they put up with infidelity because they had no real choice due to not being financially independent, concerned about the stigmata of a divorcée.