Is God's Love Unconditional?

[disgracian]

There wouldn't be a choice now would there? Unconditional love is all about choice isn't it?

Unconditional love is about loving people regardless of the choices they make, not blaming people for guessing incorrectly and then punishing them indefinitely. That isn't a proper choice at all. As I said before, nobody chooses eternal punishment over eternal reward. So the "choice" is completely bogus. Everybody makes up their own mind (or has their mind made up for them by their family/society/culture) based on the limited knowledge they have, and then they die. People believe based more on geography than anything else, so not everybody has a fair or equal chance. That's the problem you run into when you fall into the trap of thinking that your beliefs are the only valid ones.

 

That is why I abhor your religion, and why I will try to shout it down every time one of its agents (unwitting or otherwise) tries to advance its hideous cause of bigotry.

Sometimes I hate what my kids do, and what they decide. That doesn't change the punishment that they know is clearly coming to them.

Punishment is (or should be) an instructive device. Punishment for its own sake (which is exactly what eternal punishment is) is sadism. You worship a sadistic god, well done.

I've been trying to rap your knuckles for a long time now

I was referring to god. You are not god.

As long as your breathing you'll have to face accepting Him, or rejecting Him, you will NEVER be able to ignore Him.

There is nothing to accept, reject, or ignore.

 

Cheers,

D.

[quankanne]

Unconditional love is about loving people regardless of the choices they make, not blaming people for guessing incorrectly and then punishing them indefinitely.

 

so basically, your argument is that if God is truly an unconditional lover, he's going to allow us to sin, and still give us a free pass to eternal life – whether we've truly embraced it or not – simply because people shouldn't be held culpable? That's like saying rapists and murderers shouldn't be tried in a court of law because our laws are unfair and we don't want to be unfair by holding them accountable for their actions.

[Sks]

Unconditional love is about loving people regardless of the choices they make, not blaming people for guessing incorrectly and then punishing them indefinitely.

 

so basically, your argument is that if God is truly an unconditional lover, he's going to allow us to sin, and still give us a free pass to eternal life – whether we've truly embraced it or not – simply because people shouldn't be held culpable? That's like saying rapists and murderers shouldn't be tried in a court of law because our laws are unfair and we don't want to be unfair by holding them accountable for their actions.

 

So simply not believing in your god will give me life of eternal damnation?

 

Sounds like hes not a nice guy..........

[disgracian]

so basically, your argument is that if God is truly an unconditional lover, he's going to allow us to sin, and still give us a free pass to eternal life – whether we've truly embraced it or not – simply because people shouldn't be held culpable?

Yes and no. That is what unconditional means: there is nothing that can happen, nothing any of us can do to make this god stop loving us. We probably both agree up to that point.

 

Where we part company is that I interpret love as meaning he won't create an eternal torture chamber to dump us in for all eternity if we displease him. In my opinion you can't claim to love somebody without forgiving them of everything, and an eternity of hell is the very opposite of forgiveness.

 

You, like many other Christians, might attempt to argue that we send ourselves to hell instead. The only problem with that idea is that we don't. My only choice (and that of virtually everybody else on the planet) is to believe what makes sense to me. In that sense I don't have a lot of control; I can't choose to hold a belief on a whim. My mind goes wherever the data leads. So I believe in what I find to be believable. When you think about it, it's not even really a choice.

 

Ask yourself honestly if you could just choose to give up your beliefs and maybe turn gay while you're at it. If, as I suspect, your answer would be a resounding no to both, then you've proven my point.

 

The no part is that people are accountable for their actions. But that only justifies them receiving their measure of punishment in proportion to what they have done. Nothing in this finite existence justifies infinite punishment, or even comes close. That aspect of god's character that dictates otherwise could be described as psychopathic.

 

I think the very basis of Christianity with regards to these issues is hopelessly mired in contradictory notions.

That's like saying rapists and murderers shouldn't be tried in a court of law because our laws are unfair and we don't want to be unfair by holding them accountable for their actions.

This statement takes over from Moose's, I'm afraid. I can't believe you are seriously suggesting this.

 

Unconditional love is love without condition, without caveat. It is operating at 100% efficiency all the time for everybody. Consequently, there is no room for sadism, barbarism, lack of forgiveness, or any act of malice whatsoever. This completely, unambiguously rules out any notion of Hell.

 

Take note, however, that I do not suggest (and never did) that god or any being is required to actually be like this, though I suspect that many of you assumed otherwise. I actually think it's hopelessly quixotic, impractical and unjust.

 

In my mind it is born of the unfortunate compulsion among Christians to try to max out all of their god's attributes until he no longer makes any sense. It's not enough to be powerful and just and loving, he has to be infinitely powerful, loving, merciful, just, strong, big, and so on ad nauseum. Now you're left with, IMO (for those that accuse me of stating my opinions as facts), an infinite train-wreck of logic and reason.

 

Cheers,

D.

[Lovelybird]

You, like many other Christians, might attempt to argue that we send ourselves to hell instead. The only problem with that idea is that we don't. My only choice (and that of virtually everybody else on the planet) is to believe what makes sense to me. In that sense I don't have a lot of control; I can't choose to hold a belief on a whim. My mind goes wherever the data leads. So I believe in what I find to be believable. When you think about it, it's not even really a choice.

I don't think it has much to do with data. It rather has something to do with how much you know yourself and your heart, and human's heart.

 

God is spirit, not data, He made himself known through Jesus Lord, Jesus Lord is words of God

 

might be your focus wasn't right? studying in words of God might show you something amazing

[disgracian]

I don't think it has much to do with data.

Your decision-making process might not, but mine does.

 

Cheers,

D.

[Moose]

Now you're left with, IMO (for those that accuse me of stating my opinions as facts),

Your entire post FINALLY indicates to me and the rest of the members and readers that these are just your thoughts and opinions.

 

I find this tactic more respectful than your norm, thank you!!

 

Anyway.....it's clear how much of an "intellect" you are and you have your own way of thinking.....

That is what unconditional means: there is nothing that can happen, nothing any of us can do to make this god stop loving us. We probably both agree up to that point.

That's all I'm sayin'.....

[Enema]

... and conveniently ignore the non sequitur's which Disgracian pointed out at length.

[Moose]

... and conveniently ignore the non sequitur's which Disgracian pointed out at length.

Nah....the horse is already dead....pointless....

[quankanne]

Unconditional love is love without condition, without caveat. It is operating at 100% efficiency all the time for everybody. Consequently, there is no room for sadism, barbarism, lack of forgiveness, or any act of malice whatsoever. This completely, unambiguously rules out any notion of Hell.

 

you can still love someone unconditionally – my God of the Open Arms premise – yet know that they face consequences of bad decisions. Spiritually, "the wages of sin are death," and that little formula will never, ever change, even as we understand God as unconditional love.

 

or, to put it another way: It's not about God changing his mind, because his love is ageless, but it's about us changing our hearts to claim that bit of divinity we've been created with.

[disgracian]

Your entire post FINALLY indicates to me and the rest of the members and readers that these are just your thoughts and opinions.

A begrudging concession made to the whiney minority, who go after that because they have no other leg to stand on.

I find this tactic more respectful than your norm, thank you!!

I certainly find it more respectful than you referring to my "intellect" in quotation marks. I suppose the best you can do is make sly little potshots like that since you can't address the bulk of what I have to say.

 

Cheers,

D.

[disgracian]

you can still love someone unconditionally – my God of the Open Arms premise – yet know that they face consequences of bad decisions. Spiritually, "the wages of sin are death," and that little formula will never, ever change, even as we understand God as unconditional love.

Sorry quank, nobody can claim to love somebody in any way let alone unconditionally, and use their power against them. Sealing anybody's eternal fate over a bruised ego just because of honest doubt they may have had while alive is utterly abhorrent, and more accurately describes the emotion of hate than love.

 

Hypothetically, if my wife stopped reciprocating my love and left me, didn't acknowledge me or answer my phone calls, I would still not want her tortured forever because of it. In fact I'd wish her well and hope she was happy in whatever she decided to do. Therefore (and not to blow my own trumpet) I am better, more forgiving and more loving than your god, who would cast her down into the lake of fire for the equivalent behaviour.

 

How can I seriously respect a deity who isn't even as good as me?

 

Cheers,

D.

[Lovelybird]

 

How can I seriously respect a deity who isn't even as good as me?

 

Cheers,

D.

you mean you are perfect and never hurt people?

 

you can forgive your enemies? suppose those people tried to crucify you? not so difficult case, let's say someone hurt your feelings

 

you can love everyone impartially?

 

never jealoucy?

never selfish?

never covet?

never had impure thought?

and long suffering when facing other's weaknesses, and patiently guide them?

 

From this, I know you don't know yourself, nor God. maybe you use all energy to justify self righteousness, so cannot see other things

[quankanne]

unless you can open your mind up to the infinite possibilities of God's healing, forgiving love, how can you begin to understand that HE is not forcing us into "choosing" hell, we merit it of our own actions and decisions. Remember, EQG gave us free will and a moral sense to choose right and wrong.

 

you are benevolent in forgiving your wife's theoretical abuses of you, yet unless she makes reparation by consciously admitting that what she did was hurtful to you, what real impact does your forgiveness have? You feel good, even proud of offering it, but your actions most likely are going unobserved by her. What you propose is close, but no cigar ... because the relationship goes both ways ...

[disgracian]

you mean you are perfect and never hurt people?

Never hurt people? You believe in a god that drowned the entire world, created hell, sent plagues, destroyed cities, caused natural disasters, created hell, incited and assisted in wars, and created hell. This god has hurt more people than everyone and everything else combined. And it's a very good thing for all of us that he doesn't exist.

you can forgive your enemies?

I can even forgive Moose.

you can love everyone impartially?

Your god had his own chosen people and helped them to kill other tribes. That is not very impartial behaviour.

never jealoucy?

Lol. Exodus 20:5.

From this, I know you don't know yourself, nor God.

I think you are the more likely candidate for that remark than I am. I seem to know more about the god of the Bible than you do.

 

Cheers,

D.

[disgracian]

unless you can open your mind up to the infinite possibilities of God's healing, forgiving love, how can you begin to understand that HE is not forcing us into "choosing" hell, we merit it of our own actions and decisions.

Nobody merits unending torture from which there is no reprive or forgiveness. Finite crimes do not ever merit infinite punishment.

Remember, EQG gave us free will and a moral sense to choose right and wrong.

And most people utilise this sense better than the being you worship.

you are benevolent in forgiving your wife's theoretical abuses of you, yet unless she makes reparation by consciously admitting that what she did was hurtful to you, what real impact does your forgiveness have?

It doesn't have to have any impact, it just means that I'm nicer and more forgiving than a supposedly unconditionally loving superbeing.

You feel good, even proud of offering it

This is not about pride; please do not confuse what I said with boasting. It's not especially uncommon behaviour; amicable separations occur all the time, so I'm not really putting myself on any pedestal here. I'm making a point that your claims that god's love is unconditional or in any way greater or better than that of your average human is highly dubious at best, and an absolute farce at worst.

 

Cheers,

D.

[Moose]

A begrudging concession made to the whiney minority, who go after that because they have no other leg to stand on.

Not so. But think what you may. I typed my immediate response because I sincerely was impressed with you finally admitting these are only your opinions, it's not the be all end all.....

I suppose the best you can do is make sly little potshots like that since you can't address the bulk of what I have to say.

Again, whatever you think buddy....I put intellect in quotations simply because your logic is most definitely different than what I would consider the norm....that's not to say your aren't a smart cookie, anyone can see that....

 

I don't feel the need to address what you've said either simply because you've announced these are just your thoughts and opinions.....everyone is allowed to have them.....(Of course except for us Christians according to you)

 

I find most of what you say entertaining anymore......and a little sad that there are some people, (like yourself) who doesn't understand the concept of unconditional love....

I can even forgive Moose.

Pesonally, I don't think I did anything wrong to you.....maybe you think it's unfair to be treated the way you treat me?

[I Luv the Chariot OH]

Can we touch the gay issue here please? I know there's not a whole let said in the bible, but in Corinthians Paul says homosexuals "shall not inherit the kingdom of God," and I'm assuming this is no matter if they follow the other doctrines of the bible or not. Is this not an example blatant hatred, to basically condemn a group to 'eternal suffering' because of heredity/environment/everything else in the world except choice?

[Moose]

Is this not an example blatant hatred, to basically condemn a group to 'eternal suffering' because of heredity/environment/everything else in the world except choice?

Just remember that you're the one that said, "choice".....anyway.....homosexuality is simple not natural.

 

That being said, how can anything un-natural be allowed into the Kingdom?

 

Besides, homosexuals have the same opportunity as anyone else to be heirs...homosexuality is considered sin in God's eyes. All one needs to do is confess their sins and ask Christ into their hearts.....this too is also a choice.

[I Luv the Chariot OH]

Just remember that you're the one that said, "choice".....anyway.....homosexuality is simple not natural.

 

That being said, how can anything un-natural be allowed into the Kingdom?

 

Besides, homosexuals have the same opportunity as anyone else to be heirs...homosexuality is considered sin in God's eyes. All one needs to do is confess their sins and ask Christ into their hearts.....this too is also a choice.

Oh dear god. I really thought you were better than that.

 

If homosexuality isn't natural, why is it exhibited by almost every species in the animal kingdom? Why is there copious scientific evidence indicating that it is determined prenatally, and no evidence credible evidence otherwise except the Christian distortion of reality?

 

I know you think human logic is flawed and all, but how else do you intend to interact meaningfully with other humans if you refuse to use it?

[Moose]

Oh puhleeeeze, don't try and feed us that junk.....

 

Next you'll spout out that ten percent of all Americans are gay (the figure is actually closer to one or two percent), that all competent psychiatrists and psychologists believe homosexuality is a healthy lifestyle (the majority do not), that homosexuals are born that way (most therapists disagree) and cannot change their sexual preference (disproven by numerous accounts where gays have converted to heterosexuality).

 

It is the Christian's task to point out that while homosexuality is a sin, we are all sinners and there is forgiveness and deliverance for all who turn to Jesus Christ.

[I Luv the Chariot OH]

Oh puhleeeeze, don't try and feed us that junk.....

 

Next you'll spout out that ten percent of all Americans are gay (the figure is actually closer to one or two percent), that all competent psychiatrists and psychologists believe homosexuality is a healthy lifestyle (the majority do not), that homosexuals are born that way (most therapists disagree) and cannot change their sexual preference (disproven by numerous accounts where gays have converted to heterosexuality).

 

It is the Christian's task to point out that while homosexuality is a sin, we are all sinners and there is forgiveness and deliverance for all who turn to Jesus Christ.

Um...where exactly are you getting your sources for this? I'm just out of university where I did study psych, so I have a contemporary understanding of the "homosexuality situation". Yours sounds extremely outdated--you do realize it's 2008, right? Please, show me ONE credible (ie. non-Christian) source that says psychologists believe homosexuality is an "unhealthy lifestyle" :lmao:

 

And how about the prevalence of homosexuality in nature? Do your imaginary therapists think animals make the "choice" to be gay as well? No comment for that, eh? Just stick your finger in your ears and say LA LA LA and it will go away, right? Such clever Christians!

[Moose]

Please, show me ONE credible (ie. non-Christian) source

Nope, not going to happen. I'm not about to waste my time with you....you've made it clear that you hold no respect for Christians, or Christian opinion(s) whether they're True or not.

 

Do your own work, what you're looking for is out there....

[I Luv the Chariot OH]

Nope, not going to happen. I'm not about to waste my time with you....

Don't be so childish; it's not going to happen because you can't find one. You think you can try to make bs up to someone who knows what they're talking about--someone who has studied this extensively at a post-secondary level--and they're not going to call you out on it? Sorry, no.

 

I actually tried to look up some sources backing your point, but as I thought, all I found were silly Christian editorials. And you're right, I have no respect for something based in unreality that is trying to override science just for the purpose of ostracizing a group different from you. Hateful, intolerant, small-minded Christians are the ones I have no respect for.

 

Edit: this article (http://www.narth.com/docs/hom101.html) has some very basic and unbiased information about homosexuality. I think you should read it and educate yourself.

[Moose]

someone who has studied this extensively at a post-secondary level--and they're not going to call you out on it? Sorry, no.

Then your next breath:

I actually tried to look up some sources backing your point,

DO YOU or don't you know already?????!!!!!

And you're right, I have no respect for something based in unreality that is trying to override science just for the purpose of ostracizing a group different from you. Hateful, intolerant, small-minded Christians are the ones I have no respect for.

We don't hate homosexuals, regardless WHAT you might think.

I think you should read it and educate yourself.

No thanks. I'll remain small minded if it's all the same to you......