Is God's Love Unconditional?

[I Luv the Chariot OH]

We don't hate homosexuals, regardless WHAT you might think.

You don't think denying them rights, then telling them they need to "repent" what they are in order to be "good enough" to get into your heaven, is hateful? For a religion that emphasizes "divine" justice so articulately, it seems to me that condemning them to hell is the most hateful thing you could possibly do.

[Moose]

You don't think denying them rights, then telling them they need to "repent" what they are in order to be "good enough" to get into your heaven, is hateful?

First of all, I've never denied them any rights. And as far as I know, Scripture doesn't deny them rights either.

 

Secondly, no I don't think giving any sinner a choice is hateful. We are all sinners, some of us are just forgiven.

[quankanne]

I'll go one step more on Moose's premise: engaging in homosexual activity is the sin; having a homosexual nature isn't the sin.

 

and all unrepentent sinners deny themselves the kingdom of heaven because they choose a lifestyle that goes against the very nature of God. Be they practicing homosexuals or practicing axe murders or practicing monkey-spankers, the sin is their very act of doing these things, not because they're wired to do so. And I think you're purposely obfuscating the point when you fuss over homosexuality and spirituality.

[quankanne]

I actually tried to look up some sources backing your point, but as I thought, all I found were silly Christian editorials. And you're right, I have no respect for something based in unreality

 

well, kid, any semblance of reason you're striving for has been all shot to hell ... if you find the opposition silly, why should we find any gravity in a viewpoint you're foisting on us?

[quankanne]

ah, bent, but if someone were to accept what you say as being a logical way of looking at things, their whole faulty argument goes down the drain. And any opportunity of true communication or learning along with it.

[I Luv the Chariot OH]

and all unrepentent sinners deny themselves the kingdom of heaven because they choose a lifestyle that goes against the very nature of God.

The point is you can't choose whether or not you're homosexual. It makes as much sense as saying I am going to hell for having brown hair (an imperfect analogy because homosexuality is a product of many thing, INCLUDING genetics, while haircolour is genetics solely, but it still works).

 

I'm not saying anybody is stupid, but if you look at a scientific fact/study and say "that doesn't apply to my reality because human logic is imperfect", that's ridiculous.

 

I use the term "hate" because you Christians are the main group of people still fighting to deny homosexuals basic rights, when we scientifically know better than that in 2008.

[quankanne]

The point is you can't choose whether or not you're homosexual.

 

you're not listening. I never said that one could choose having a homosexual nature. It's innate and unique to a particular being, just like having a heterosexual nature is innate to a particular being. You can, however, choose to act on it. Which leads us to sin, or actively doing something that goes against God's rules. And that can be of homosexual nature (two people of similar gender bumping uglies) or heterosexual nature (outside of marriage, either as a single or married person).

 

being homosexual is not the sin. Indulging in homosexual activity is. It's about separating the sin from the sinner.

[Moose]

The point is you can't choose whether or not you're homosexual.

 

you're not listening. I never said that one could choose having a homosexual nature. It's innate and unique to a particular being, just like having a heterosexual nature is innate to a particular being. You can, however, choose to act on it. Which leads us to sin, or actively doing something that goes against God's rules. And that can be of homosexual nature (two people of similar gender bumping uglies) or heterosexual nature (outside of marriage, either as a single or married person).

 

being homosexual is not the sin. Indulging in homosexual activity is. It's about separating the sin from the sinner.

You see why I hardly bother anymore? I'd rather be called stoopy than wast my time anymore.....

[I Luv the Chariot OH]

It seems severely opposed to biology to tell a species not to act on its sexual impulses--it's not natural.

 

Do animals that engage in homosexual activity go to hell too? This is a serious question.

[I Luv the Chariot OH]

You see why I hardly bother anymore? I'd rather be called stoopy than wast my time anymore.....

You didn't say anything akin to what she did--stating nonsense facts with no sources then being a baby when you're called out on it isn't exactly intelligent debate.

[quankanne]

point taken, moose.

 

ILTC, I think that while your heart is in the right place, you need to polish your argument because it's misguided. We're not talking about whether animals have souls, and therefore merit heaven or hell; we're not talking about what is impulse or not; we're addressing the idea that unrepentent sinners go to hell because it's the choice they made.

[quankanne]

then being a baby when you're called out

 

POT!

 

KETTLE!!!

 

:laugh:

[Moose]

This is a serious question.

Sounds more like a trap to me....

 

First there's an arguement whether or not animals will be in heaven in the first place. The Bible tells us they will be in the new kingdom, but doesn't mention animals being in Heaven....as far as I know...

 

But, I personally believe you must understand the difference between what is moral and what isn't. Animals don't have that capability.

[I Luv the Chariot OH]

First there's an arguement whether or not animals will be in heaven in the first place. The Bible tells us they will be in the new kingdom, but doesn't mention animals being in Heaven....as far as I know...

 

But, I personally believe you must understand the difference between what is moral and what isn't. Animals don't have that capability.

Might it not be fair to say, then, that if homosexuality is something animals do so naturally and with no sense of morality attached, that perhaps the morality we attach with it is man-made?

[I Luv the Chariot OH]

then being a baby when you're called out

 

POT!

 

KETTLE!!!

 

:laugh:

Not that it matters, but show me where I a) was called out successfully, or b) acted like a baby.

[quankanne]

sorry ... I guess I've had a fit of irony reading through these posts and seeing you get torqued up, but not comprehending this side of the dialogue

[I Luv the Chariot OH]

sorry ... I guess I've had a fit of irony reading through these posts and seeing you get torqued up, but not comprehending this side of the dialogue

It's not so much a question of comprehension as it is relevance. YOUR Christian beliefs are irrelevant to a non-Christian homosexual, yet you impose them, trying to build this mentality that there's something wrong with a natural human occurrence (most often paired with pop-pseudo-scientific "facts" about homosexuality that are blatantly outdated, as in one of Moose's first posts)--I think that is wrong and hateful.

 

I realize we all interpret reality differently, and I do respect the way you've stated your opinion--the only thing I don't respect is when people deny scientific facts from the standpoint of faith. That just brings Christianity back to its archaic motive of control and domination by any means necessary.

[Moose]

yet you impose them, trying to build this mentality that there's something wrong with a natural human occurrence

You're still not getting it are you? WE Christians didn't come up with the idea or premise that homosexuality is wrong or immoral. GOD did. We follow GOD, therefore we adhere to what HE tells us is moral or not.

 

As far as it being a natural human ocurrence, that's still debatable and there is no REAL evidence of it's validity.....from EITHER side, Christian or not.

the only thing I don't respect is when people deny scientific facts from the standpoint of faith. That just brings Christianity back to its archaic motive of control and domination by any means necessary.

Scientific fact does not Truth make......besides, what can I say? You'll just have to learn to live with it.

[I Luv the Chariot OH]

You're still not getting it are you? WE Christians didn't come up with the idea or premise that homosexuality is wrong or immoral. GOD did. We follow GOD, therefore we adhere to what HE tells us is moral or not.

I think YOU'RE the one not getting it. "Because god says so" is irrelevant for people who don't believe in god (and furthermore, circular reasoning is a logical fallacy).

[Moose]

I think YOU'RE the one not getting it. "Because god says so" is irrelevant for people who don't believe in god (and furthermore, circular reasoning is a logical fallacy).

Then why even bother argueing with us? Go on with your life, and we will ours....how's that??

[electric_sheep]

Ah.....you see.....you aren't taking Scripture as a whole.

 

Jesus didn't come to change the law(s) of God, rather He came to fulfill the law(s) once and for all.

 

He knew man is in-capable of keeping God's law(s) so He took our place and paid our debt for our inability to satisfy them.

 

That's what I call unconditional love.....

 

Yeah, but... God in the old testament was a bit of a psychopath, wouldn't you agree?

[FleshNBones]

Yeah, but... God in the old testament was a bit of a psychopath, wouldn't you agree?

Psychopaths don't create anything, and they don't offer anything.

 

Don't worry, he will be around long after you and I are gone.

[Lovelybird]

Just remember that you're the one that said, "choice".....anyway.....homosexuality is simple not natural.

 

That being said, how can anything un-natural be allowed into the Kingdom?

 

Besides, homosexuals have the same opportunity as anyone else to be heirs...homosexuality is considered sin in God's eyes. All one needs to do is confess their sins and ask Christ into their hearts.....this too is also a choice.

True.

 

Oh dear god. I really thought you were better than that.

 

If homosexuality isn't natural, why is it exhibited by almost every species in the animal kingdom? Why is there copious scientific evidence indicating that it is determined prenatally, and no evidence credible evidence otherwise except the Christian distortion of reality?

 

I know you think human logic is flawed and all, but how else do you intend to interact meaningfully with other humans if you refuse to use it?

what if a children molester has sexual desires for children? are they born this way? or they choose to feed themselves porns and choose to act on them?

 

we can see animal kingdom sometimes son will have sex with his mother. Can you use the same stardard on human being? if not, why not?

[FleshNBones]

True.what if a children molester has sexual desires for children? are they born this way? or they choose to feed themselves porns and choose to act on them?

 

we can see animal kingdom sometimes son will have sex with his mother. Can you use the same stardard on human being? if not, why not?

I know you mean well, but please don't encourage him.

 

For a logical guy, he used an obvious fallacy.

[NoIDidn't]

I believe that God's love is conditional.

 

I believe that God ranks sins, some ARE worse than others. The order of the Ten Commandments comes to mind.

 

What is unconditional with God then? I believe that is His willingness to forgive, no matter what. "Father forgive them, because they don't know what they are doing." comes to mind.

 

My two cents.