Is God's Love Unconditional?

[quankanne]

yet you impose them, trying to build this mentality that there's something wrong with a natural human occurrence (most often paired with pop-pseudo-scientific "facts" about homosexuality that are blatantly outdated, as in one of Moose's first posts)--I think that is wrong and hateful.

 

most believers aren't trying to condemn, but to help people avoid an occasion of sin so that they can reap the benefits of everlasting life. Even if said sinner professes his non-belief in God.

 

I think it's far more cruel and hateful to leave someone hanging when you're capable of lending a hand to help them out of a bottomless hole. However, I know this explanation isn't going to float with someone who would rather come up with blind arguments about how "bad" and "wrong" it is to show genuine compassion and care and worry for another person's immortal soul. You wouldn't be you if you saw my end of things, and I wouldn't be me if I walked away from someone who needed that spiritual connection.

[Moose]

I believe that God's love is conditional.

 

I believe that God ranks sins, some ARE worse than others. The order of the Ten Commandments comes to mind.

 

What is unconditional with God then? I believe that is His willingness to forgive, no matter what. "Father forgive them, because they don't know what they are doing." comes to mind.

 

My two cents.

Okay....

 

I'll attempt to explain this as easily as I can.....

 

Let's first take this part....

I believe that God ranks sins, some ARE worse than others. The order of the Ten Commandments comes to mind.

I also believe this, in the time, place and situation in which God in His Wisdom placed these Commandments, (AKA Morals).

What is unconditional with God then? I believe that is His willingness to forgive, no matter what. "Father forgive them, because they don't know what they are doing."

Unconditional is that He was willing to substitute our sins with the very Fabric of His Being..(Christ)..there's no possible way any of us can follow God's Law of the Old Testament today...unless you like jail or the insane asylum....

[NoIDidn't]

Okay....

 

I'll attempt to explain this as easily as I can.....

 

Let's first take this part....I also believe this, in the time, place and situation in which God in His Wisdom placed these Commandments, (AKA Morals).Unconditional is that He was willing to substitute our sins with the very Fabric of His Being..(Christ)..there's no possible way any of us can follow God's Law of the Old Testament today...unless you like jail or the insane asylum....

 

 

Moose,

 

I have no idea of what you are reacting to in my post. I stated what I believe about God's love and forgiveness.

 

I obviously know the differences in the Old and New Testaments. One could argue that there is no forgiveness in the Old Testament (I wouldn't make that argument since personal discretion existed in meting out the punishments, Judah and Tamar come to mind, Mary and Joseph, Jesus and the woman caught in adultery, etc.).

 

So just what ARE you explaining to ME?

[NoIDidn't]

Unconditional is that He was willing to substitute our sins with the very Fabric of His Being..(Christ)..

 

I don't agree with this. Even Christ has a condition. You MUST believe in Him. That's the condition, otherwise, even the atheist is already saved because Christ was definitely offered. But the atheist chooses not to believe.

 

Maybe God's Love IS unconditional, but what is conditional are his promises? That's a thought.

 

He has done much for His creation, but He will still condemn some to Hell based on His conditions. KWIM?

[Moose]

Moose,

 

I have no idea of what you are reacting to in my post. I stated what I believe about God's love and forgiveness.

 

I obviously know the differences in the Old and New Testaments. One could argue that there is no forgiveness in the Old Testament (I wouldn't make that argument since personal discretion existed in meting out the punishments, Judah and Tamar come to mind, Mary and Joseph, Jesus and the woman caught in adultery, etc.).

 

So just what ARE you explaining to ME?

My apologies, I didn't even look at who posted.....

 

You did just state your opinion however I wanted to stress that there is no rank in sin.

 

Sin is sin. It's all taboo period. None of us can avoid it.....ever.

 

To say that God ranks sin doesn't fly in the New Testament at all. Otherwise, Christ would have to keep coming back to make deposits......(Copyright Moose)

[Moose]

FINALLY!!!!

 

BING BING BING BING

 

The title of this thread is, "Is God's Love Unconditional"

[Moose]

but what is conditional are his promises? That's a thought.

 

He has done much for His creation, but He will still condemn some to Hell based on His conditions. KWIM?

That's totally up to the individual. THAT's how much He loves us.....

[Explorer]

Just remember that you're the one that said, "choice".....anyway.....homosexuality is simple not natural.

 

That being said, how can anything un-natural be allowed into the Kingdom?

 

Besides, homosexuals have the same opportunity as anyone else to be heirs...homosexuality is considered sin in God's eyes. All one needs to do is confess their sins and ask Christ into their hearts.....this too is also a choice.

 

Moose,

 

I think whether or not homosexually is a choice or not can be answered by whether or not YOU have had homosexual thoughts. Right? If you haven't, then where does a choice come in? Right...?

 

I am a heterosexual that would never choose to have sex with men simply because I'm not attracted to other men. There is no choice because I'm only attracted to females.

 

Also, what about the homosexuals that go through intensive unorthodox catholic rituals to rid themselves of that "sin" only to find out that it didn't work.

 

Just saying.......

[Lovelybird]

I've heard some homosexuals said, after they repented their sins, Holy Spirit helped them to change, some even experienced instant delivery from homosexual desires

[Explorer]

I've heard some homosexuals said, after they repented their sins, Holy Spirit helped them to change, some even experienced instant delivery from homosexual desires

 

Why would they go through this in the first place? It's a choice remember......they should just turn it off.

 

"Science without religion is lame, religion with science is blind" - Albert Einstein

[Lovelybird]

Why would they go through this in the first place? It's a choice remember......they should just turn it off.

 

"Science without religion is lame, religion with science is blind" - Albert Einstein

I mean "help them overcome"

 

when they are filled with much spirit, they won't want things that are against spirit. Depends which side they feed themselves, flesh or spirit

 

It is like when a person feed himself porns, soon he will find out he wants more than normal porns, then he curiously watch violent porns, or gay porns, gradually he will find himself turn on by those violent and gay porns. So flesh is like a monster, if you feed it, it becomes bigger, if it becomes bigger, then it will become hungerier; but if you feed spirit, then you will get peace, rejoice, kindness.....and flesh will become smaller

[disgracian]

I don't feel the need to address what you've said either simply because you've announced these are just your thoughts and opinions.....everyone is allowed to have them.....(Of course except for us Christians according to you)

Oh, feeling persecuted because you occasionally have to read somebody disagreeing with your beliefs? Man up for goodness sake.

I find most of what you say entertaining anymore......and a little sad that there are some people, (like yourself) who doesn't understand the concept of unconditional love

I understand it a lot better than you do.

 

Cheers,

D.

[disgracian]

Nope, not going to happen. I'm not about to waste my time with you....you've made it clear that you hold no respect for Christians, or Christian opinion(s) whether they're True or not.

Help me out here Moose. Why is it that, no matter who you're talking to whether it be me or anyone else, you always choose to drop out of the discussion with a few parting insults as soon as somebody asks you where you get your information from?

 

Could it be that you are just spouting unsubstantiated drivel?

 

I think it could be.

 

Cheers,

D.

[disgracian]

and all unrepentent sinners deny themselves the kingdom of heaven because they choose a lifestyle that goes against the very nature of God.

Since Moose is obviously out of the race, maybe you can step up and tell us where you get these notions that our sexual orientation is a choice.

 

I wonder if any of you could choose to become sexually attracted to people of your own gender. Give it a try and tell us how successful you were.

 

Cheers,

D.

[disgracian]

Then why even bother argueing with us? Go on with your life, and we will ours....how's that??

That statement cuts both ways, here you are sniping back and forth. Why not lead by example and go on with your life? To take this stance while you're here in the thick of it is hypocrisy at its most base level.

 

Cheers,

D.

[disgracian]

What is unconditional with God then? I believe that is His willingness to forgive' date=' no matter what. "Father forgive them, because they don't know what they are doing." comes to mind.[/quote']

Well, it's not quite "no matter what" now is it? Once you're dead, brought before this great big tyrant and you can actually make an informed decision, then it's too late and you're condemned for choosing the wrong god amongst thousands that have been worshipped.

 

Cheers,

D.

[Taramere]

But, I personally believe you must understand the difference between what is moral and what isn't. Animals don't have that capability.

 

Cats might not, but dogs do. Unless there's a total lack of discipline in the household, a dog that's a family pet won't kill a cat that belongs to the same family (or, from its perspective, pack) that it belongs to. Nor will it make a mess in the house, unless it's ill or desperate.

 

If you tell a dog off for doing something wrong, it will adopt a look of abject repentance. Shout at the cat for scratching the furniture, and it'll just stare at you for a moment then carrying on scratching unless you physically restrain it or frighten it away from what it's doing.

 

The dog, meantime, will grin wretchedly, hold its tail between its legs and snivel around the pack leader - only resuming the usual joyful tail-wagging when reassured repeatedly that it's not the one being shouted at. That it's the cat who's the hell-bound baddie.

 

That seems, to me, to be in line with religious notions of morality.

[FleshNBones]

Well, it's not quite "no matter what" now is it? Once you're dead, brought before this great big tyrant and you can actually make an informed decision, then it's too late and you're condemned for choosing the wrong god amongst thousands that have been worshipped.

 

Cheers,

D.

For leading other Christians astray, and spreading lies after recieving his message. I don't have a problem with eternal punishment for those who betrayed God.

[FleshNBones]

Cats might not, but dogs do. Unless there's a total lack of discipline in the household, a dog that's a family pet won't kill a cat that belongs to the same family (or, from its perspective, pack) that it belongs to. Nor will it make a mess in the house, unless it's ill or desperate.

Cats were never really domesticated.

[Taramere]

To expand on my last post about the notion of animal morality, and to try to link it more into the opening topic.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/30/science/30side.html?_r=1&pagewanted=print&position=&oref=slogin

 

 

Does God love sinners and the righteous equally and unconditionally? Does God love a cat and a dog equally? The dog, a social animal, is more than happy to have and know its place in the hierarchy - even if that place is right at the bottom. It's more than happy to be reminded of that place by the rest of the pack. Liken it to a congregation in a church. A pack of dogs being chastened by the head dog. If you're a human dog, then religion is a great thing - regardless of where you are in the pecking order.

 

Dogs are preoccupied with food, survival and the pack hierarchy. Humans are more sophisticated. Love and justice are two of the things we argue most about. Don't we do it all the time on this board? So the notion of a perfect entity who is able to love unconditionally, is all powerful and administers absolute, perfect justice is incredibly seductive. Just as the strongest, fittest member of the pack is worshipped by its pack, this impossibly perfect mythical creature who we created in our own likeness is worshipped by the dog humans amongst us.

 

God, to me, is just a metaphor for human potential. The ability to love a sinner? Yes, that would tie in with my notion of God (ie me at my best - any other person at their best). Replace sinner with "someone who has different values from you", and replace "love" with "accept". It's called being broad minded, and it's essential if dog humans and cat humans are to co-exist reasonably happily.

 

Let people have their churches and organised religious belief systems - and let them accept that not everyone needs that pack discipline and pack approval in order to survive.

[FleshNBones]

Since Moose is obviously out of the race, maybe you can step up and tell us where you get these notions that our sexual orientation is a choice.

 

I wonder if any of you could choose to become sexually attracted to people of your own gender. Give it a try and tell us how successful you were.

 

Cheers,

D.

Why do you use the same tired old ploy?

Sin is an act not a state.

 

I am also tired of the deception in regards to abortion, stem cell research, and even science. Obviously you aren't to tell the truth or the whole truth.

[disgracian]

For leading other Christians astray, and spreading lies after recieving his message. I don't have a problem with eternal punishment for those who betrayed God.

This is consistent with the qualities I have perceived in you.

 

Cheers,

D.

[I Luv the Chariot OH]

what if a children molester has sexual desires for children? are they born this way? or they choose to feed themselves porns and choose to act on them?

 

we can see animal kingdom sometimes son will have sex with his mother. Can you use the same stardard on human being? if not, why not?

Incest is not biologically harmful, it just causes loss of social differentiation. It's been socialized into being taboo, but not for any sensible/biological reason. (Not that I necessarily approve of or would engage in incest; just stating the facts.)

 

I'm going to quote someone who said it much better than I can:

 

"Heterosexuality is a sexual preference.

Homosexuality is a sexual preference.

Bisexuality is a sexual preference.

Asexuality is a sexual preference.

Pedophilia is a sexual preference.

Bestiality is a sexual preference.

 

The issue at hand is whether or not people are born with their sexual preference. Heterosexuals are quick to claim they were "born that way," while some do and some do not accept that homosexuals were "born that way." Homosexuals are also quick to claim they were "born that way," but many people from both orientations eagerly discount OTHER sexual preferences as being "born that way." You CAN'T have it BOTH ways, people.

 

The "jury" is still out over whether or not people are born with sexual preferences or if they're a product of environment or learned behavior. It may, in fact, be that some ARE born "that way" while others "become" that way. HOWEVER, even simple logic and common sense dictate that whatever the cause(s) for sexual preference(s), they must reasonably be considered valid for ALL types."

 

The end.

 

I've heard some homosexuals said, after they repented their sins, Holy Spirit helped them to change, some even experienced instant delivery from homosexual desires

Oh, you've heard!!! Well thank god because now we all know that it's been scientifically tested and it logically true, despite how obviously ridiculous it is!!! It's so wonderful that you can hear but not research facts.

[I Luv the Chariot OH]

Also, as far as I understand we've solved the problem of this thread; there is a condition for god's love, and that condition is belief--in both the sense that non-believers are "sent off to eternal suffering" (certainly not a show of love, but the very opposite), and I, as a non-believer, know that (the Christian version of) god does not love me simply because he does not exist.

[Moose]

Also, as far as I understand we've solved the problem of this thread; there is a condition for god's love, and that condition is belief--in both the sense that non-believers are "sent off to eternal suffering" (certainly not a show of love, but the very opposite), and I, as a non-believer, know that (the Christian version of) god does not love me simply because he does not exist.

Nope. You haven't figured anything out..... I can love you regardless if you love or believe in me. Same with God.

Help me out here Moose. Why is it that, no matter who you're talking to whether it be me or anyone else, you always choose to drop out of the discussion with a few parting insults as soon as somebody asks you where you get your information from?

It's easy.....it doesn't make a flying rat's azzz if I gave you all the sources in the world, Christian or Non Christian, you'll not accept it....so why even bother?

Since Moose is obviously out of the race,

I get a lot of PM's that say otherwise....besides, I've never considered this a "race"....

That statement cuts both ways, here you are sniping back and forth. Why not lead by example and go on with your life? To take this stance while you're here in the thick of it is hypocrisy at its most base level.

I don't take kindly to people trying to tear down Christians or Christianity on a public forum.....especially those that seem to get their jollies in doing so.....