Is God's Love Unconditional?

[I Luv the Chariot OH]

Nope. You haven't figured anything out..... I can love you regardless if you love or believe in me. Same with God.

How about the fact that if I don't believe in you and you do turn out to be real, you will commit the most hateful act in the Christian universe toward me, by sending me to a place you have created simply for the reason of torturing me and other like me? This is the diametric opposite of love. The fact that it's based on my own choice doesn't matter; the condition for god's love is then to make the "right" choice. It's a condition still, no matter how you look at it.

[Moose]

How about the fact that if I don't believe in you and you do turn out to be real, you will commit the most hateful act in the Christian universe toward me, by sending me to a place you have created simply for the reason of torturing me and other like me?

What? You don't believe there are some people who deserve to be tortured eternally? Please don't be so gullible.

 

Next your going to say that you haven't done or said anything in your life that equates you to say Adolph Hitler.....I've got news for you....according to Scripture, sin is sin.....God hates all of it.

This is the diametric opposite of love. The fact that it's based on my own choice doesn't matter; the condition for god's love is then to make the "right" choice. It's a condition still, no matter how you look at it.

Just because people make the choice to ignore God doesn't mean He doesn't still love them.....even if the end result is being cast into hell.....

 

You're envisioning God as someone laughing madly as He picks up people by the scruff of their neck and tosses them into a lake of fire......well, you couldn't be any farther from the truth!

[Explorer]

Hi Moose,

 

Could you please answer my last question to you regarding homesexuality and choice?

 

I don't want to argue my point, but rather discuss with an open mind.

[quankanne]

Since Moose is obviously out of the race, maybe you can step up and tell us where you get these notions that our sexual orientation is a choice.

 

I wonder if any of you could choose to become sexually attracted to people of your own gender. Give it a try and tell us how successful you were.

 

the choice isn't in being of a certain sexual orientation, but in acting upon behaviors that are sinful. And I think I spelled out before that it's just not gays who are banned from having sex outside marriage. Or that sin isn't limited to just sex, but can be anything from gluttony to lust to pride, etc.

 

I think y'all are dogging to death the whole homosexual thing in order to prove a point without really *listening* openly to the responses you receive. Suffice to say, why don't we just agree to disagree and leave it where it is. Because until, we're going to go round and round and round and no real communication (or understanding) will take place

[Moose]

Hi Moose,

 

Could you please answer my last question to you regarding homesexuality and choice?

 

I don't want to argue my point, but rather discuss with an open mind.

The reason I didn't answer is because I believe Quank did an excellent job.....a couple, few times....

[Explorer]

the choice isn't in being of a certain sexual orientation, but in acting upon behaviors that are sinful. And I think I spelled out before that it's just not gays who are banned from having sex outside marriage. Or that sin isn't limited to just sex, but can be anything from gluttony to lust to pride, etc.

 

I think y'all are dogging to death the whole homosexual thing in order to prove a point without really *listening* openly to the responses you receive. Suffice to say, why don't we just agree to disagree and leave it where it is. Because until, we're going to go round and round and round and no real communication (or understanding) will take place

 

BUT, in order to act upon those behaviors you have to first have those thoughts. To have those thoughts, are in itself, a point proven that it's not a decision. Right?

[Moose]

BUT, in order to act upon those behaviors you have to first have those thoughts. To have those thoughts, are in itself, a point proven that it's not a decision. Right?

I think I know what you mean, and now disgracian and ILCO.....

 

I think everyone has thoughts about what it would be like to have sex with the same gender.....whether they've been asked and visualized it happening to formulate an answer or decision, or even had dreams which are pretty random in themselves.

 

It's the act that's considered immoral in God's eyes.

 

Before you guys throw at me the fact that Christ said even the thought is sin, you must realize He was just pointing out that NO MAN is capable of NOT sinning.....

 

That's precisely why He came.....it doesn't EXCUSE the sin, it COVERS the sin....

[disgracian]

It's easy.....it doesn't make a flying rat's azzz if I gave you all the sources in the world, Christian or Non Christian, you'll not accept it....so why even bother?

You cannot truthfully say this without ever actually having tried first, so your claim is nothing more than an entirely vacuous attempt to slander me and excuse yourself from your obligations in an adult discussion.

I get a lot of PM's that say otherwise....besides, I've never considered this a "race"....

Do I really have to point it out to you that it was a figure of speech? Besides, you did excuse yourself from the discussion by pointing out at length what a waste of your time I am.

 

Curious, nay, that if you think it's a waste, why you spend such a large portion of your 5,000+ posts here engaging in to-and-fros with us. Unless perhaps that isn't really the reason...

I don't take kindly to people trying to tear down Christians or Christianity on a public forum.....especially those that seem to get their jollies in doing so.....

So you're willing to make an exception for yourself to a rule you'd like those of us you don't like to adhere to.

 

Cheers,

D.

[NoIDidn't]

You're envisioning God as someone laughing madly as He picks up people by the scruff of their neck and tosses them into a lake of fire......well, you couldn't be any farther from the truth!

 

 

I agree. It was with great sorrow that God decided to destroy the Earth with a flood. It wasn't done with glee. And even then, just like with Heaven, He decided to save the righteous one that he found: Noah.

 

Anyone here ever hear a parent say "this is going to hurt me more than it hurts you" when they have to punish you (doesn't apply only to spankings)? Same thing. The phrase "tough love" comes from a similar place, IMO too.

 

It is possible to love someone and still allow them the consequences of their choices. Love isn't all sunshine and roses.

[disgracian]

the choice isn't in being of a certain sexual orientation, but in acting upon behaviors that are sinful.

According to outdated morality thought up by a culture that thought stoning people to death and genital mutilation was a good idea too.

Or that sin isn't limited to just sex, but can be anything from gluttony to lust to pride, etc.

Yes, thanks to Jesus we have thought-crime too. Wondeful.

I think y'all are dogging to death the whole homosexual thing in order to prove a point without really *listening* openly to the responses you receive.

It wasn't me that brought it up. I was busily arguing the topic when somebody else came along and derailed the thread slightly. I joined in because I can't abide seeing ignorant people spreading such malicious misinformation about the topic, skewing the issue even more than it already is. Rubbish like it being "unnatural" or a "choice" (many do argue that orientation is a choice, and even if they're only referring to the act, the prejudice is still no less evident or repugnant) just needs to be squashed with facts whenever it floats to the surface.

 

Cheers,

D.

[disgracian]

Anyone here ever hear a parent say "this is going to hurt me more than it hurts you" when they have to punish you (doesn't apply only to spankings)? Same thing. The phrase "tough love" comes from a similar place' date=' IMO too.[/quote']

Again the same rubbish. You can't equate spankings, groundings, six of the best (trousers down) to eternal unescapable punishment. The latter is punishment for the sake of punishment, without any other purpose. Legitimate punishment is:

 

a) Proportional to the trespass

b) Instructional (i.e., don't do it again)

 

God's punishment is neither. It is sadism and cruelty beyond measure or comprehension.

 

It would be nice if one of the people who routinely dredge up this tired old canard would address the problems with it before doing so again.

 

Cheers,

D.

[NoIDidn't]

It would be nice if one of the people who routinely dredge up this tired old canard would address the problems with it before doing so again.

 

What are the problems with it? I wasn't aware that I was required to know everything that you object to before adding to a discussion here.

[NoIDidn't]

Legitimate punishment is:

 

a) Proportional to the trespass

b) Instructional (i.e., don't do it again)

 

 

 

JMO here.

 

a) Life is a gift. Not an entitlement. When one wastes it, should they be allowed to continue taken such a precious gift for granted?

 

b) The consequences of our actions are their own kind of "instructions". If the burn from touching the hot stove doesn't teach you, you're hopeless.

 

As a Christian, I can argue (make the statement) that going to Hell is a choice ultimately. Not a punishment, so to speak.

[disgracian]

What are the problems with it?

Uhh, the ones I mentioned in the post you replied to?

 

Also try this and this, though they're much the same.

I wasn't aware that I was required to know everything that you object to before adding to a discussion here.

My apologies. It's just that it's been raised twice in this thread alone already, albeit not by you. I was just expressing general frustration.

 

Cheers,

D.

[disgracian]

JMO here.

It's alright, I'm not Moose. I, like most people, assume that it is an opinion unless otherwise stated (e.g., "the fact is..." or "...the fact that...").

a) Life is a gift. Not an entitlement. When one wastes it, should they be allowed to continue taken such a precious gift for granted?

Maybe the Muslims are right and you'r ethe one wasting your life? Even if you disagree, you can see how subjective your point is.

b) The consequences of our actions are their own kind of "instructions". If the burn from touching the hot stove doesn't teach you, you're hopeless.

I'm not sure where the burn from the stove fits in. Am I supposed to have felt one yet, not being a Christian and all?

As a Christian, I can argue (make the statement) that going to Hell is a choice ultimately. Not a punishment, so to speak.

And as a non-Christian, I can argue that I made no such choice whatsoever. It would be like me suggesting that you made the choice to spend eternity in Naraka.

 

I'd like you to think about this for a second, and maybe even (if you're feeling adventurous) step outside yourself for a moment here. Would it be possible to briefly entertain the idea that when you die, you discover (to your shock and dismay) that god isn't who you thought he was and that Christianity was wrong.

 

As you're cast down into your eternal destination of horrible punishment, this god uses the same arguments as you and others have here to justify your immutable sentence. You wasted your life, you chose this outcome, it's nobody's fault but your own.

 

On the way down you reflect on your lifetime of dedication to your faith, maybe also your observance of laws, rituals, your good deeds. But it's all for nothing because you guessed wrong. Maybe you were raised into it, and had you come from a region that worships the correct god then you might have had a better chance.

 

Think fully on the very concept of eternal punishment. You're never getting out, your suffering will endure forever, nobody is listening to your pleas. Take the longest amount of time you can possibly conceive, and multiply it by infinity.

 

Maybe by now, as the lake of fire comes into view, a long-suppressed voice at the back of your mind speaks up. It might say something like "I didn't choose this" or "This, on the whole, doesn't seem quite fair."

 

If you can put yourself in that hypothetical situation, even for just a moment, you may get a glimpse of how messed up this kind of tribal, exclusivist thinking is. Maybe, if you've come this far with me, you might even wonder that maybe god is bigger than all our fractured, petty and divisive religions are.

 

Or probably not. What can I say, I'm an eternal optimist.

 

Cheers,

D.

[NoIDidn't]

I admit that I am not the best source for a discussion of Heaven and Hell. But I must say this. If I am to believe the Prophet Isaiah's reaction upon seeing God in a vision, I don't think anyone going to Hell is going to feel that it is unfair. Or that the people that find themselves accepted into Heaven will feel that they deserved it.

 

(It was Isaiah, wasn't it?? Somebody help me out)

[NoIDidn't]

I'd like you to think about this for a second, and maybe even (if you're feeling adventurous) step outside yourself for a moment here. Would it be possible to briefly entertain the idea that when you die, you discover (to your shock and dismay) that god isn't who you thought he was and that Christianity was wrong.

 

As you're cast down into your eternal destination of horrible punishment, this god uses the same arguments as you and others have here to justify your immutable sentence. You wasted your life, you chose this outcome, it's nobody's fault but your own.

 

On the way down you reflect on your lifetime of dedication to your faith, maybe also your observance of laws, rituals, your good deeds. But it's all for nothing because you guessed wrong. Maybe you were raised into it, and had you come from a region that worships the correct god then you might have had a better chance.

 

Think fully on the very concept of eternal punishment. You're never getting out, your suffering will endure forever, nobody is listening to your pleas. Take the longest amount of time you can possibly conceive, and multiply it by infinity.

 

Maybe by now, as the lake of fire comes into view, a long-suppressed voice at the back of your mind speaks up. It might say something like "I didn't choose this" or "This, on the whole, doesn't seem quite fair."

 

If you can put yourself in that hypothetical situation, even for just a moment, you may get a glimpse of how messed up this kind of tribal, exclusivist thinking is. Maybe, if you've come this far with me, you might even wonder that maybe god is bigger than all our fractured, petty and divisive religions are.

 

Or probably not. What can I say, I'm an eternal optimist.

 

Cheers,

D.

 

 

I can imagine that for the non-religious, and especially those of a non-Abrahamic faith feeling this way. I imagine I would feel cheated if I lived out my life based on a philosophy that turned out to not be true and reaped the opposite of what I felt I was working towards. I would be livid. But then, that reaction will likely be used to justify sending me there and keeping me there anyway.

 

I think it was Pascal that said he had nothing to lose if it turned out that God and Heaven didn't exist. But I don't know of anyone that has seriously pondered the possibility that they will go to Hell anyway.

 

Based on the nature of God, as I understand and know Him, I don't see Hell being eternal (even though I know that's what the Bible says). The Bible also says that He will not be angry always. There are some that believe that Jesus paid the price whether one believes in Him or not. I don't know if I can accept that, but there is a possibility that its true.

 

Could you imagine going to Heaven based on Christ's deed on the Cross having never believed in Him? I don't know if it would happen, but anything's possible.

 

I have considered that possibility that everything that I believe could turn out to be one big fallacy. I have considered the possibility that there really is nothing after death. But, like Pascal, if Christ and His promises are real, I win. And, if not, I lose nothing as I had nothing to lose.

[I Luv the Chariot OH]

And as a non-Christian, I can argue that I made no such choice whatsoever. It would be like me suggesting that you made the choice to spend eternity in Naraka.

 

I'd like you to think about this for a second, and maybe even (if you're feeling adventurous) step outside yourself for a moment here. Would it be possible to briefly entertain the idea that when you die, you discover (to your shock and dismay) that god isn't who you thought he was and that Christianity was wrong.

 

As you're cast down into your eternal destination of horrible punishment, this god uses the same arguments as you and others have here to justify your immutable sentence. You wasted your life, you chose this outcome, it's nobody's fault but your own.

 

On the way down you reflect on your lifetime of dedication to your faith, maybe also your observance of laws, rituals, your good deeds. But it's all for nothing because you guessed wrong. Maybe you were raised into it, and had you come from a region that worships the correct god then you might have had a better chance.

 

Think fully on the very concept of eternal punishment. You're never getting out, your suffering will endure forever, nobody is listening to your pleas. Take the longest amount of time you can possibly conceive, and multiply it by infinity.

 

Maybe by now, as the lake of fire comes into view, a long-suppressed voice at the back of your mind speaks up. It might say something like "I didn't choose this" or "This, on the whole, doesn't seem quite fair."

 

If you can put yourself in that hypothetical situation, even for just a moment, you may get a glimpse of how messed up this kind of tribal, exclusivist thinking is. Maybe, if you've come this far with me, you might even wonder that maybe god is bigger than all our fractured, petty and divisive religions are.

 

Or probably not. What can I say, I'm an eternal optimist.

 

Cheers,

D.

This reminds me of the South Park episode where everyone dies and the hell director tells them the correct religion was Mormonism.

 

Great post though--this is exactly the stuff that Christians can't seem to comprehend. There are hundreds of thousands of religions in the world, and the probability that Christianity is the "right" one (if there is a right one at all) is minuscule (especially considering the fact that Christianity was originally devised to explain phenomena we now can explain sensibly, and as an easy way to control people).

 

I still vote Pastafarianism.

[quankanne]

Could you imagine going to Heaven based on Christ's deed on the Cross having never believed in Him? I don't know if it would happen, but anything's possible.

 

YES! That is the whole point of this entire post: That God's love is available to all, you just need to embrace it. Even if you've never heard of Jesus, but follow an innate call of morality sounded by God, you merit heaven because you chose to follow. Christ is the personification of God's grace, not the limitation, because that grace is extended to all, throughout the ages and across humankind.

 

According to outdated morality thought up by a culture that thought stoning people to death and genital mutilation was a good idea too.

 

there's a fine line between stupid and hurtful laws, and being so dang open-minded and PC that your brains fall out. And it scares me that in my lifetime, people are throwing aside "rules" just because they don't like them, not because they're morally harmful.

[FleshNBones]

Again the same rubbish. You can't equate spankings, groundings, six of the best (trousers down) to eternal unescapable punishment. The latter is punishment for the sake of punishment, without any other purpose. Legitimate punishment is:

 

a) Proportional to the trespass

b) Instructional (i.e., don't do it again)

 

God's punishment is neither. It is sadism and cruelty beyond measure or comprehension.

 

It would be nice if one of the people who routinely dredge up this tired old canard would address the problems with it before doing so again.

 

Cheers,

D.

You are rebelling against God because you consider yourself the authority.

 

I think you do believe in God's existence, but choose to rebel against him.

Do you know what that makes you?

[quankanne]

but follow an innate call of morality sounded by God

 

oops, meant to say, "innate call of holiness," as it's a more open-ended term, and what He calls us to be ("Be holy as your Lord God is holy") ...

[Green]

is gods love uncomfortable?

[Moose]

is gods love uncomfortable?

Sorry folks.....

 

But I'm occupied at the moment but saw this on my Q.....

 

The obvious answer is yes...otherwise this thread would have an ending....

[quankanne]

is gods love uncomfortable?

 

it can become very uncomfortable when you fight it, just like any love relationship you're not ready for. Especially when you realize that you have to give of yourself to become one with the other person in the relationship. But like those relationships, submission to God is an incredible experience because it frees you. You don't have to reinvent the wheel because he's got all the big stuff (and little stuff) covered. :love:

[quankanne]

and to answer a bit differently, something I discovered recently about a popular song penned by Pete Townsend of The Who: In the liner notes of his Gold (Remaster) CD, he refers to his song "Let my love open the door" as "Jesus sings" …

 

I have got the only key to your heart

I can stop you from falling apart

Release yourself from the misery

Only one thing gonna set you free

 

It's my love