His wife is a ventilated quadriplegic.

[Tomcat33]

If I were a co-worker and the sh.it was about to hit the fan, I would not get involved, I would stay far far away.

 

 

Until the consquences and fallout and reactions, a possible lawsuit by the rest of the family, extended family...

 

 

But by knowing they were having a romantic interest in one another you WOULD be involved. The moment this became your knowledge you would be completely involved and your job is on the line from that point on. If you are truly breaking professional and medical codes of ethics you are 100% considered a complice to the situation, are you not?

 

 

Intersting, I find it really odd that someone with as strong a code of ethics as you seem to have, given your moral stance in this situation, that if you were one of the caregivers in the know that you would keep it hush hush and go along for the ride as long as the poop didn't hit the fan.

Furthermore if I understood correctly, you would not get involved unless there was a law suit and your job was on the line. Hmmmm...

 

I guess we all have a price for our moral standards don't we and who said grey is not the new pink!!!

[Tomcat33]

Yes, by me, by you, by everyone, even wyld. We all assume and that's why side discussions go on and we each tell what we think, hense why this thread is so long..lol

 

 

But I never said I was not making assumptions as well....how can I say that and be taken seriously? The only time I tried to claim something as fact was when OWL said life is black and white. And life is NOT black and white there is TONS of grey hence this situation and how it could be handled.

 

Anyway... I'm outy, have a nice weekend guys!

[american-woman]

You might as well have sex on that bed right there next to his wife!!!! How disgusting!!! He is still married regardless how much time she has left. Cheating is cheating.

[whichwayisup]

Intersting, I find it really odd that someone with as strong a code of ethics as you seem to have, given your moral stance in this situation, that if you were one of the caregivers in the know that you would keep it hush hush and go along for the ride as long as the poop didn't hit the fan.

 

If I was one of the caregivers, I would quit the job and find another patient to care for. If I was friendly with the caregiver who was involved with the patient like wyld is with her patients husband, I would tell her I don't want to know anything and yeah, walk away from it. That I know..

 

And life is NOT black and white there is TONS of grey hence this situation and how it could be handled.

 

You are right - There are many ways this can be handled, which means there are many choices too. She can choose to stay on straight and narrow, the professional way, step down and give her notice. Or, she can choose to stay and continue the care and continue to be the OW and suffer any future consquences.

[InLimbo2]

I only read the first couple pages, then skipped to the last - so forgive me if this has been discussed. Lawsuit based on what?

 

If the poster was suspected of hastening the death of the W - that is a criminal matter and the police would investigate.

 

Ethics rules prohibit a doctor from becoming involved with a patient, dunno bout a nurse - and then it's the PATIENT, not their family member. So tho many have an uneasy feeling about it - I don't think there's any legal ethics breaches here for her profession.

 

What else could the family - especially someone other than the spouse - sue for? Adultery is not a criminal offense much of anywhere if any these days - and that would be solely the spouses right - not the family. Wrongful death? See above about criminal investigation if suspected she hastened the death. There's really nothing a family could sue this woman for.

 

 

Until the consquences and fallout and reactions, a possible lawsuit by the rest of the family, extended family...l

[NoIDidn't]

I only read the first couple pages, then skipped to the last - so forgive me if this has been discussed. Lawsuit based on what?

 

If the poster was suspected of hastening the death of the W - that is a criminal matter and the police would investigate.

 

Ethics rules prohibit a doctor from becoming involved with a patient, dunno bout a nurse - and then it's the PATIENT, not their family member. So tho many have an uneasy feeling about it - I don't think there's any legal ethics breaches here for her profession.

 

What else could the family - especially someone other than the spouse - sue for? Adultery is not a criminal offense much of anywhere if any these days - and that would be solely the spouses right - not the family. Wrongful death? See above about criminal investigation if suspected she hastened the death. There's really nothing a family could sue this woman for.

 

Lawsuit based on a wrongful death suit is a civil matter. A la O.J. Simpson and the Browns suing him and getting his trophy auctioned off.

 

They can sue. All they need to prove is that her care was compromised and as a result their loved one suffered. This has more to do with ethics than adultery.

 

I don't agree that there isn't an ethics breach here. Just like with that lady that was on a feeding tube, her parents fought her husband, so yeah, I think someone other than the spouse can sue the company.

[InLimbo2]

Wrongful death can be mighty hard to prove. OJ's case was of a normal healthy woman being brutally murdered in a fit of passion.

 

This patient is terminal as it is - with multiple caregivers. There would have to be proof that she violated the standards of nursing care. You state that just so easily "all they need to prove is that her care was compromised" - who said her care is compromised at all? much less being able to prove it. Being attracted to the patients husband is not equivalent to her care being compromised - even if she had sex with the husband that does not mean the nursing care she provided the patient is compromised in anyway.

 

You are mixing things. What has the Terry Shiavo's case have to do with this? That was a right-to-die case where the patient had no clear wishes documented and her husband and her parents disagreed about what she would have wanted. The lawsuit was over letting her die or remain alive as a vegetable - not either suing for wrongful death.

 

 

Lawsuit based on a wrongful death suit is a civil matter. A la O.J. Simpson and the Browns suing him and getting his trophy auctioned off.

 

They can sue. All they need to prove is that her care was compromised and as a result their loved one suffered. This has more to do with ethics than adultery.

 

I don't agree that there isn't an ethics breach here. Just like with that lady that was on a feeding tube, her parents fought her husband, so yeah, I think someone other than the spouse can sue the company.

[NoIDidn't]

Wrongful death can be mighty hard to prove. OJ's case was of a normal healthy woman being brutally murdered in a fit of passion.

 

This patient is terminal as it is - with multiple caregivers. There would have to be proof that she violated the standards of nursing care. You state that just so easily "all they need to prove is that her care was compromised" - who said her care is compromised at all? much less being able to prove it. Being attracted to the patients husband is not equivalent to her care being compromised - even if she had sex with the husband that does not mean the nursing care she provided the patient is compromised in anyway.

 

You are mixing things. What has the Terry Shiavo's case have to do with this? That was a right-to-die case where the patient had no clear wishes documented and her husband and her parents disagreed about what she would have wanted. The lawsuit was over letting her die or remain alive as a vegetable - not either suing for wrongful death.

 

I've not said her care was being compromised at all. I'm simply saying that the family could make that claim in light of an emotional entanglement between a caregiver and the woman's spouse.

 

And I am not mixing things up, you just aren't connecting how I am using it. You said that only the spouse could sue, I used that case to show that others can sue on behalf of the patient.

 

Wrongful death is only one of their options. They could also choose negligence. Or have the company brought before the ethics board.

 

What I am saying is, there is too much possibly at stake for this to continue. That's all. I wouldn't want all these negative things over my head.

 

And we aren't saying they would sue the OP, but her employer. I think you have jumped to conclusions here having not read more of the thread.

[InLimbo2]

Yes they could - and several people have warned her on that. The reality is that in medical malpractice (which is what we are talking) lawyers work on commission - and they would look at the records - takes a lot for a negligence case to stick.

 

I said only the spouse could sue based on adultery - and that's true.

 

I still say there is no ethics breach here if the care she gives is not compromised.

 

Is she risking some bad gossip - yep. But there's no real danger to her here as long as she's living up to her professional obligations.

 

 

I've not said her care was being compromised at all. I'm simply saying that the family could make that claim in light of an emotional entanglement between a caregiver and the woman's spouse.

 

And I am not mixing things up, you just aren't connecting how I am using it. You said that only the spouse could sue, I used that case to show that others can sue on behalf of the patient.

 

Wrongful death is only one of their options. They could also choose negligence. Or have the company brought before the ethics board.

 

What I am saying is, there is too much possibly at stake for this to continue. That's all. I wouldn't want all these negative things over my head.

[NoIDidn't]

Yes they could - and several people have warned her on that. The reality is that in medical malpractice (which is what we are talking) lawyers work on commission - and they would look at the records - takes a lot for a negligence case to stick.

 

So we agree. Other family members can sue for medical malpractice which is what I was talking about, not AOA.

 

I said only the spouse could sue based on adultery - and that's true.

 

That is true. But I was never addressing the adultery angle for being sued. I have only been talking about medical malpractice.

 

I still say there is no ethics breach here if the care she gives is not compromised.

 

I don't think that the level of care is being questioned concerning ethics. The ethics is the fact that the emotional entanglement puts the reputations of both the OP and the company she works for at risk. It is not okay to date the spouse of a dying patient when you are in their home on a daily basis. It is downright disrespectful to most people.

 

Is she risking some bad gossip - yep. But there's no real danger to her here as long as she's living up to her professional obligations.

 

And some gossip can end a career. Not worth it.

[GreenEyedLady]

I don't think that the level of care is being questioned concerning ethics. The ethics is the fact that the emotional entanglement puts the reputations of both the OP and the company she works for at risk. It is not okay to date the spouse of a dying patient when you are in their home on a daily basis. It is downright disrespectful to most people.

 

And some gossip can end a career. Not worth it.

 

I totally agree with you.

 

Don't s*** where you eat.

 

And professionaly speaking, you are governed by a certain ethical code. Would the company support the OP if the truth came out? I think not.

 

In addition, if the OP really thought what she was doing was ok, she wouldn't have titled the thread the way she did.

[InLimbo2]

Actually don't know if other members can sue for medical malpractice. My brother felt that the doctor treating my father was guilty of malpractice, his lawyer said he couldn't sue, only my mother could as closest relative. Not to mention the lawyer looked at the file and said there wasn't enough of a case there to proceed - bro was not convinced and tried 3 more lawyers - none would take the case.

 

Legally - it is ok to date the spouse of a dying patient I do believe - I don't think it's against a professional code of ethics. People in general may not like it - doesn't mean it's a breach of ethics.

 

Gossip about a nurse's personal life is highly unlikely to end a career - heck, evidently they can be 'angels of death' and kill a lot of people over years and not be found out til much later (not saying the OP is one - just saying it isn't necessarily true).

 

 

So we agree. Other family members can sue for medical malpractice which is what I was talking about, not AOA.

 

 

 

That is true. But I was never addressing the adultery angle for being sued. I have only been talking about medical malpractice.

 

 

 

I don't think that the level of care is being questioned concerning ethics. The ethics is the fact that the emotional entanglement puts the reputations of both the OP and the company she works for at risk. It is not okay to date the spouse of a dying patient when you are in their home on a daily basis. It is downright disrespectful to most people.

 

 

 

And some gossip can end a career. Not worth it.

[NoIDidn't]

Sometimes lawyers won't take cases due to conflicts, may have nothing to do with the case. I think parents have more rights than siblings in these matters, so maybe that's what hurt your brother's situation.

 

I guess we just have to agree to disagree. I don't see how it can be said that dating the spouse of a dying patient that you yourself are actually caring for is okay. Nurses are trained to detach but here we have one with a deepening attachment to a family member of the patient. Its a clear conflict of interest, to me.

[NoIDidn't]

Wanted to add this:

 

It would be one thing if this was happening in a hospital setting. Its happening in this woman's home. In HER personal and private space.

 

I cannot imagine the humiliation of being bathed by the woman that hopes to be my H's next lover. This person seeing me at my most vulnerable ever, being paid to make me comfortable, but considering a relationship with my spouse in my house.

 

Not acceptable. No way. No how. No one would want to be in this position. Sure the W may feel guilty for being sick, but she didn't ask to be treated as if she is already dead in her own home by her *hired* help at that. Not trying to insult the OP at all. Its just that it would be one thing if the neighbor were helping me and my family out for free. But when I am paying for it, it best be on the up and up.

[underpants]

I've been acquainted with some nurses and other health care employees that have lost their careers over similiar circumstances.

 

That is why my advice was for the OP to step down/ask for reassignment from this case. Basically, remove youself from potential liability. Professionally, it is simple. You have crossed an emotional line, others know and you are the primary care giver. Where you may wind up in the toss is as avoidable and it is attainable.

 

I guess you could wait for the cards to fall and be brought before a board or a jury (who knows how they will judge ...but based on this thread...you have to have a concern). Just objectively noticing the opinions.

[wyldflower]

This will be the last time I post on LS.

I wanted to let TC know she is spot on about thinking the H's care towards his W would deteriorate should I leave the job. It is not as simple as having another carer replace me. We are specifically trained for her and training can take up to 4 months. It is an intensive care postion and they find have found great difficulty in finding competent staff.

I suggested that I leave the job today and H just broke down. Regardless of what people choose to believe, we are very much a support for each other and need one another. I know he would be distracted and distressed should I go. That in turn would affect the dynamics of the house and, ulimately, her care.

There are no legal repercussions for being emotionally involved with a patient's spouse...it is amusing to see that people who assume so much about the law actually know very little.

It is a fairly good indicator of the accuracy of the rest of the assumptions on here.

Her family love their son-in-law and have lived through both the heartache of seeing her trapped in her body, and also he and thier children having to stop normal existence to support her. We all are sadly aware that it will be a blessing when she can be free, so I have no concerns about her family's attitude toward us further down the track. It may be hard for some to believe but it is the actuality in this case. Not an assumption based on "what you would do".

TC, Thank you for all of your support. I am sorry you have been pinpointed in all of this.

[NoIDidn't]

Why is this the last time that you post on LS? I'm glad you felt that you had some support, but the rest of us that contributed to this thread didn't do it from a place of just wanting to tear you down.

 

Why are you so sure that her level of care would suffer if you should leave your position?

 

You don't think that your emotional/romantic involvement with this patient's spouse borders on the unethical?

 

I am not questioning you, but really want to know why you posted this thread and raised these questions? Were you concerned about the way it may look? Or were you concerned about the possible long-term consequences?

[NoIDidn't]

Her H is not exactly an objective person to bounce the "should I leave my job" question off of?

 

That should have been a no-brainer. The AP having a break down at the thought of discontinuing the affair. No-brainer, indeed.

 

Just because there are no legal repercussions doesn't mean that its the best course of action.

 

How about you tell your HR department what's going on and see how they feel about it? I'm sure they will clarify this whole mess once and for all.

[underpants]

Well then.

 

You decision is to continue.

 

Please do update as things progress.

 

It should be interesting.

 

Of course, you think I know nothing of the law. That is cool, and I may be in a different country then you.

 

I do know that juries and boards do take into account very opinionated things. They don't really see "grey".

 

I hope you find a peaceful decision.

[wyldflower]

I raised the questions without clear intent in my mind. I was just at my wit's end with the intensity and confusion around the whole situation.

I know I am needed by H and W. He emotionally; she because I am the one nurse who goes out of my way to make her smile (I clown around for her) and also because I am an integral part of a very small intimate team. Basically, the better we are at our jobs, the better it is for her in terms of comfort and health - as best can be at least.

Without wanting to sound conceited, I will put it in domino terms for you...He is a clown and jokes around and makes the other carers, family and W feel more at ease. The few occasions where I have wanted to leave because of the intensity of our feelings for each other, and the subsequent guilt that arises since I genuinely care for the W, he has been a mess until I changed my mind. It was noted by all involved with the house. Everyone in the house was down because he was down because I was leaving. Therefore, should I leave W's comfort and tone of the house will deteriorate.

I feel like I can't post on LS anymore because of the truly nasty nature of some of the responses on here. I am not sleeping with H. I feel that I have displayed restraint and respect as best I can.

Nobody likes being strung up and shamed out.

[wyldflower]

How about you tell your HR department what's going on and see how they feel about it? I'm sure they will clarify this whole mess once and for all.

 

I had my co-ordinator call H up about 6 months back because she had an anonymous phone call that he was talking to a carer for a long time out the front of the house and the caller summised there must be an affair.

She rang him to warn him and said that what he did was "his business" and that as long as care was not being compromised they had no other business in the nature of his personal life. They are all aware of his situation and probably, once again because they are involved, have a more empathetic p.o.v.

[NoIDidn't]

My last questions tonight should you decide to answer any of my posts, Wyldflower.

 

How exactly does this man support YOU? What kind of support do you need that he provides that you say he is there for you?

 

Why would you be devistated if his W should find out about you and him as you stated in your first post about this?

 

Why did you state that it sounds sinister, but now adamantly say you are doing nothing wrong?

 

I konw it is definitely your perogative to post anything you like here within the guidelines, but this pattern is repeated so much here. It seems like you posted, people responded honestly, you didn't hear what you wanted to from most posters, you tell us you didn't really want or need our help because we don't know what we are talking about, then you bail. "You" is being used generally, mind you.

 

I don't know you, and I can't make you do anything you haven't already decided to do, but this scenario doesn't sound good for you. Would it really be all that bad to you to step back? Although you feel that there are no legal repercussions for your actions, should your firm find out about them, I don't think they will have problems finding a replacement for such an intensive care situation.

 

This is your job. Your livelihood. You are single and the only one taking care of you right now. Should you lose your job behind this, regardless of the fact that you don't think you can, your MM will not be in a position to support you financially while his W is still alive. Please continue to think this through instead of having such a knee-jerk reaction to perceived negative posts.

[wyldflower]

NID, I have no qualms in listening to your advice, as you manage to put it across in a non-aggressive manner...which ohters have gravely failed to do.

I meant sinister because we talk about the life we want together down the track...and obviously that means whe W passes. We don't like to mention her passing specifically. Neither of us are monsters.

[wyldflower]

* excuse typos. I really should revise before I submit thread.

[wyldflower]

I think I should post again now that I am not reeling from the ill-wishes.

Thank you to everyone who replied in a decent amnner. By that, I don't mean "all those who condone my romantic feelings with H".

I mean the posters who put forth an ubiased, intelligent answer...regardless of their angle. I refuse to pay attention to any message that is shrouded in anger or nastiness.

Basically, you are wasting your breath if that is the way you wish to give me your opinion.

WWIU and Owl and NID are all examples of people who do not agree with my situation or me continuing to stay in my job (on which my mind is still not made up, as there are many factors to consider before making a career decision), yet they have articulated their thoughts in a way that doesn't resort to pure hostility.

This WILL be my final post on LS.

Thank you for all of your differing opinions. I will be considering them as I sort through this myriad of emotions.