His wife is a ventilated quadriplegic.

[Tomcat33]

I'm tired.

 

And I don't like the OP putting her professional position in jeopardy.

 

It could scar her record for life. At the very least, someone could report her to the State Board and an investigation would ensue.

 

And she needs to be aware of those consequences.

 

 

No prob!

 

I agree there is a conflict of interest in terms of caring for this woman and being romantically involved with her spouse and in terms of what happens if she doesn't die in a year and they are feeling like they want to move on with their relationship this could be cause for speculation on how well they would care for the ill W. And even how much will would be put forth to ensure she IS well.

 

Again, I am giving the OP the benefit of the doubt and thinking she won't do anything to jeopardise this poor woman's health any further. Otherwise what we are implying here is that the OP is capable of murder, that is a huge leap to make, one I am not prepared to make that kind of accusation. But some people clearly are. So for that reason alone she SHOULD watch her back.

[Walking away]

Oh heavens, no.

 

I don't believe the OP would ever harm her patient. She seems quite merciful, and as a nurse, that is a wonderful trait to have.

 

Professionally, I am concerned due to the conflict of interest.

 

It could fry her if the wrong person got the right information about her relationship with her patient's husband.

[Tomcat33]

No one, not even the OP, knows when this lady is going to die.

 

It could be tomorrow, it could be in 10 years.

 

I was just speculating on the ramifications if this situation continues for years and years.

 

 

I agree. Which is why I turned the question around and asked those that find this so incredibly heinous, what the H and Wyld are doing, what would you do? Would you continue to chain your soul and body to a person who bearly exists anymore because you are married to them or if you were the W would expect your spouse to continue to be glued to you for 20 yrs and cut him off from life like that because you are gone?

 

That is ludicris to me, absolutely insane, and extremely selfish. It's just a general moral/what if question, that was by no means intended for you personally Walking!

[bentnotbroken]

I agree. Which is why I turned the question around and asked those that find this so incredibly heinous, what the H and Wyld are doing, what would you do? Would you continue to chain your soul and body to a person who bearly exists anymore because you are married to them or if you were the W would expect your spouse to continue to be glued to you for 20 yrs and cut him off from life like that because you are gone?

 

That is ludicris to me, absolutely insane, and extremely selfish. It's just a general moral/what if question, that was by no means intended for you personally Walking!

 

 

 

Yes, yes, and yes. That's what I signed up for. In sickness and health. I am well aware that most people don't feel that way, but I do. Right isn't always easy, fun or fair.

[LucreziaBorgia]

what would you do? Would you continue to chain your soul and body to a person who bearly exists anymore because you are married to them or if you were the W would expect your spouse to continue to be glued to you for 20 yrs and cut him off from life like that because you are gone?

 

Don't take this the wrong way - I'm just playing devil's advocate here but...

 

I'm curious what you would do, TC if the man you love most in this world found himself incapacitated. Would you want to be by his side to love and support him in the times where he most needs it - in a time where he is wracked with 'sick person' guilt, in pain, frustrated, angry, sad, afraid...

 

or would you tell him that you are sorry, but your sexual needs come first.

 

I hope you never find yourself seriously ill or incapacitated. Your words will come back to haunt you. You might think you'll see it the way you do now, but trust me when I tell you this for a fact: you really don't know what you are going to feel until you are in the situation.

[Walking away]

Your posts as a fellow professional and former OW are amongst the most important contributions to this thread.

 

Thank you for your substantial contributions!

 

This situation is an ethical and moral nightmare.

 

One that I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole.

 

Professionally, I continue my stance:

 

If she were one of MY nurses that I staff, I would fire her immediately.

 

My business reputation relies on professionalism and no medical business owner would want to be affiliated with this type of situation. It is a nightmare waiting to happen.

[Tomcat33]

Don't take this the wrong way - I'm just playing devil's advocate here but...

 

I'm curious what you would do, TC if the man you love most in this world found himself incapacitated. Would you want to be by his side to love and support him in the times where he most needs it - in a time where he is wracked with 'sick person' guilt, in pain, frustrated, angry, sad, afraid...

 

or would you tell him that you are sorry, but your sexual needs come first.

 

I hope you never find yourself seriously ill or incapacitated. Your words will come back to haunt you. You might think you'll see it the way you do now, but trust me when I tell you this for a fact: you really don't know what you are going to feel until you are in the situation.

 

 

No that's fine I don't mind your question. I read your other post about your cancer treatment and I understand where you are coming from, but let me remind you, having had my fair experience with cancer (lost close people to cancer and have family members who have recovered from it) that it is not the same thing. Cancer is either terminal or you recover from it. While there is a period of being in limbo, that limbo state does not last yrs, you either beat it or you don't. But I can appreciate the emotions that experience evoked for you since it was a close call and it gave you a taste of what it must feel like to be in a situation where you feel like you are a burden on your loved ones.

 

Ok so having said that, if I were marrried or my long term partner became exactly like the woman in question I feel I would stick by them every step of the way. I would never abandon them in a time of need.

I cannot say that something like what happened to the H COULD NEVER happen to me if there was a caregiver that I became emotionally close to working along my side caring for my partner and helping me out. I would not be out looking to find romance outside of my situation and though I can imagine it being extremely difficult I cannot account for what might happen after 5 yrs of caring for a partner that was closer to being gone than they were being here.

 

I insist that if it were ME in the shoes of the incapacitated person IN THE EXACT same predicament the W in this situation is in, not sick with cancer, not sick with any other desease or even a terminal disease but where I had a limited time to live I would definitely want my partner by my side but I don't see how I could expect them to stay with me romantically (when that is inexistent to begin with due to the nature of the situation). If I were incapacitated to the extent that this woman is I would not want my spouse to die with me I wouldn't feel right about that at all, out of the love that I would feel for this man I would not want him to waste away at my side because it is my time to go. 5 yrs is a long time. If I were in a coma same thing.

 

As to your last little comment, if you think my attitude is akin to extending a fishing rod to reel in a peice of humble pie courtesy of KARMA, then you are seriously missing my point. Speaking of karma the difference between you and me Lucrecia is that I am not a serial cheater I have never cheated on any one in my entire life, and I never would. I have never set out to hurt a loved one in any shape way or form. So perhaps things happened to you as they did because it was life's way of opening your eyes to those around you, to the importance of not taking your loved ones for granted and not betraying their trust because some day you will have to count on them, I don't know....I am really glad you beat the odds. Please don't take that the wrong way I am just speculating as you are with me! Cool?

 

But I find it really odd that you would tell me I will eat my words as if I were doing something horrible by trying to unburden a spouse. I think that wanting to unburden my partner from having to die along my side if I become completely incapacitated is not something that should bring karma on?! I don't really believe in karma but since you brought up the topic....

[Tony]

If you can't stay on topic, that is the topic of the ORIGINAL POST AND NOT SOME SUBSEQUENT POST THAT IS OFF TOPIC, then please don't post at all. If you are inclined to be sarcastic, argumentative, inflammatory, or otherwise inappropriate please reconsider. We simply don't need guideline violations in this thread.

 

Thank you!

[pelicanpreacher]

I raised the questions without clear intent in my mind. I was just at my wit's end with the intensity and confusion around the whole situation.

I know I am needed by H and W. He emotionally; she because I am the one nurse who goes out of my way to make her smile (I clown around for her) and also because I am an integral part of a very small intimate team. Basically, the better we are at our jobs, the better it is for her in terms of comfort and health - as best can be at least.

Without wanting to sound conceited, I will put it in domino terms for you...He is a clown and jokes around and makes the other carers, family and W feel more at ease. The few occasions where I have wanted to leave because of the intensity of our feelings for each other, and the subsequent guilt that arises since I genuinely care for the W, he has been a mess until I changed my mind. It was noted by all involved with the house. Everyone in the house was down because he was down because I was leaving. Therefore, should I leave W's comfort and tone of the house will deteriorate.

I feel like I can't post on LS anymore because of the truly nasty nature of some of the responses on here. I am not sleeping with H. I feel that I have displayed restraint and respect as best I can.

Nobody likes being strung up and shamed out.

 

I will always applaud the work that you do for it takes a special calling to endure the heartache and pain that comes with your vocation. The closeness you have achieved with everyone in the household and all parties involved now makes you part of the family so leaving will definately hurt this woman's mental and emotional well being, as well as her quality of life. I posted earlier of the psychological impact an affair might have on the wife's will to live while you also posted earlier about her alluding to a wish that her husband begin the transition to living a life without her so I would strongly suggest that a psychologist be brought in to speak with this woman to achieve a proper understanding and assessment of her thoughts and emotions to allow her to communicate exactly what she feels about this issue to you since you've developed such an intimate level of closeness with her.

 

I can't imagine the fear, despair, guilt, and self-loathing this woman may be experiencing because of her illness and the impact it has on the lives of her husband, children, parents, and friends. She is fortunate to have someone like you in her life at this moment because her quality of life has benefited by the spiritual impact of your being. That said, I still believe that you should reflect and prioritize your feelings before you get emotionally hurt worse than you're already going to be, cause irreparable harm to your hard won and stellar career, or unconsciously hurt anyone else involved in this tragic life drama for the intensity of this heartbreaking situation has placed you ...too close to the forest to see the trees!

[Taramere]

I second Pelican Preacher's comments.

 

I'm not surprised this is weighing on the OP's mind and causing her pain. Given the opportunity for love and happiness with someone they've developed a strong bond with, how many people can just turn their back and say "but it would be unprofessional so I won't do it..." and walk away? It takes a lot of strength to do that. But people expect professionals to have that strength. It's one of the reasons they're respected in society. Or were.

 

The OP has a clear duty of care towards the man's wife. If she breaches that by getting embroiled with him, and the wife picks up on it and suffers emotionally in consequence, then the OP has been negligent in the course of her job. As LB pointed out - guilt about being a burden could drive a dying person to put a brave face on a situation that caused them immense internal pain at a time when the emphasis should be on helping them to pass on as peacefully as possible. Just because she can't talk, doesn't mean she can't pick up what's going on around her. Doesn't mean her instincts aren't still sharp.

 

It's just not good enough for people to say "If it were me, I'd want my husband to be happy" which leaves, hanging in the air, a suggestion that the wife in this situation, if she were a good and selfless person, would be accepting of her husband and the nurse who's caring for her falling in love while she lies in a vegetative state."

 

There's nothing to say that the wife in this particular situation would be accepting of that state of affairs just because other people posting on this thread would. Maybe she would, but it's a pretty dangerous assumption to operate from..and I think it's one that's being made, with the best will in the world, to ease the OP's sense of guilt here rather than to help her to make the right professional decision.

 

I feel terribly sorry for everyone involved here, but if I ran a nursing agency and one of the staff became romantically embroiled in a situation like this, I'd be saying "You cannot continue caring for this patient when you have these feelings for her husband. The first duty of this agency is to that patient. Regardless of whether you think you are capable of putting her needs first in this situation, I disagree. I'd see it as an unwritten term of our contract with this lady that you do not get romantically or sexually involved with her husband. I will not condone you breaching that term. I'm afraid that if you aren't capable of keeping your professional and personal lives separate then I'm going to have to let you go. Or you agree to come off this particular job and have no further contact with the patient. It's your call."

 

I've developed strong feelings for a client before, and similarly I'm sure it's quite common for medical staff to develop strong feelings for patients. It's hard to say "sorry, no" to someone who's indicated a strong attraction to you - and who you're attracted to in return. Nobody ever said that professional ethics were easy, but being a professional person means that you're expected to have the intelligence, discretion and personal standards to differentiate between right and wrong without needing every single thing to be spelled out for you. And a general rule is that as long as you're acting in your professional capacity towards someone, you put their needs before your own personal ones. Or if you can't do that, you resign from acting for/treating that person.

 

The OP isn't in a position to objectively consider whether she's capable of putting her patient's needs first here. That's evident from the way she's so quick (see beginning of thread) to grab onto this notion that the wife would want her husband to be happy - and that this somehow makes it okay for her (the OP) to get romantically involved with him. I know that that's the fuzzy feel-good way of looking at it, but it involves focusing primarily on what the OP wants, and interpreting what the wife "would want" in a way that's compatible with that. The OP's duty is to consider this lady's needs from a clinical perspective, as a patient - not from an emotional one in terms of her situation as The Potential Betrayed Wife.

 

She's posting in a section that's primarily frequented by women who are embroiled in extra marital affairs.....but this is less an "OW" issue, more of a professional ethics one. The usual arguments, employed in this section, about people not inflicting their morality on others just do not apply. People are absolutely entitled to expect and demand ethical behaviour from the professionals who act for/treat them.

 

Wyld, it sounds as though you've developed an emotional attachment that's gone too far for you to put a stop to it. I can't see that you have any choice, professionally speaking, but to stop acting as this lady's carer. I can see the difficulties in that if she still has a good awareness of going on around her, and has developed an attachment to you, that could be very upsetting for her. But really, you're treading a minefield here. I'd also strongly suggest you contact the mods and see if this thread can be deleted. I think the situation you've outlined is sufficiently uncommon for anyone who knows you to identify you from this thread.

[Owl]

Wyld, thank you for noting my intent of trying to provide you advice and support without making you feel attacked. Attacking the person just pulls the attention and focus from where it needs to be...attacking the PROBLEM.

 

I'm glad that WA posted to this thread, and sincerely hope that Wyld reads her advice...and kind of hope that perhaps they can at least continue some kind of discourse via PM if they want to avoid the "public scrutiny" of this thread.

 

I am one who can easily believe that regardless of her feelings for the H...Wyld clearly also cares deeply for this woman that she's providing care for, and would never do anything to put this lady's health at risk.

 

That's NOT been a focus of my concern or advice.

 

My real concern isn't what she'd DO...but its far more centered around what OTHERS in the situation may THINK OR FEEL about her involvement with the H...and therefore if something occurred and this lady's health took a turn for the worse, Wyld is now open to all kinds of investigations/lawsuits...because the QUESTION of her judgement and her loyalties can be raised.

 

In other words...she's at risk simply because the situation creates reason for her motives, her actions, her professionalism to be questioned.

 

Again...I'm not calling Wyld out...I'm pointing out that she's professionally at risk because of her involvement with the H...that's all.

 

WA raised that point well.

 

I think that Wyld has reached a point where her personal life and her professional life are at direct conflict, and she's going to have to choose one or the other very soon.

 

I wish her the best.

[sb129]

This situation is an ethical and moral nightmare.

 

One that I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole.

 

Professionally, I continue my stance:

 

If she were one of MY nurses that I staff, I would fire her immediately.

 

My business reputation relies on professionalism and no medical business owner would want to be affiliated with this type of situation. It is a nightmare waiting to happen.

 

While I appreciate what you are saying, I have a question for you.

 

In the absence of a physical relationship, how would you be able to prove beyond reasonable doubt that you had adequate grounds to fire her? Its very difficult to fire people these days without good documentation of verbal and written warnings, and/or proof of the sackable offense. The womans family hasn't made any complaints about her care, and neither has the H.

 

Wouldn't you just be obliged to reassign her to a different case in the first instance to avoid being accused of wrongful dismissal?

 

I agree, Wyld should distance herself from the situation to shield herself from potential professional pitfalls, and I don't think she should pursue the R with the H any further.

 

However, I think at this stage, especially seeing as she is the team leader, it is up to her to remove herself from the situation rather than somebody else forcing her out of it.

[GreenEyedLady]

I agree with Walking Away.

 

Is it worth losing yourself? Is it worth a wing and a prayer?

 

To lose yourself and what you know of right and wrong, for what?

 

This is someone's life-what is left of it. Do you wish to make it worse? Do you wish to betray someone who counts on you and seems to think you are wonderful? You have a choice here-choose wisely.

 

GEL

[Walking away]

While I appreciate what you are saying, I have a question for you.

 

In the absence of a physical relationship, how would you be able to prove beyond reasonable doubt that you had adequate grounds to fire her? Its very difficult to fire people these days without good documentation of verbal and written warnings, and/or proof of the sackable offense. The womans family hasn't made any complaints about her care, and neither has the H.

 

Wouldn't you just be obliged to reassign her to a different case in the first instance to avoid being accused of wrongful dismissal?

 

I agree, Wyld should distance herself from the situation to shield herself from potential professional pitfalls, and I don't think she should pursue the R with the H any further.

 

However, I think at this stage, especially seeing as she is the team leader, it is up to her to remove herself from the situation rather than somebody else forcing her out of it.

 

 

In my home state of Arizona, it is a right to work state.

 

A person can legally be terminated with no grounds whatsoever.

 

And nurses here are not part of a union, so we are basically unprotected.

 

I would fire her not based on her performance, but on the affair. It is unprofessional and I would not want my name or business affiliated with such a situation. It would put me and my reputation up for questioning. And her behavior in regards to her personal relationship with her patient's husband is scandalous and damaging not only for her reputation and career, but also mine as her employer.

 

Now, if the OP wanted to be put with another patient willingly, I would certainly not fire her. But if I was privy to the information that she has given us, and has yet to resign from that particular job, I would be forced to terminate her.

 

So, in essence, if the OP would ask to be reassigned as of today, I would do that. She has compassion that is very marketable. And, I, although very strong in my stance on this situation, am empathetic to the situation.

 

However, if she continued the affair and I was made aware of the situation, I would be forced to take action. At best, her care of her patient and her affair would be a huge conflict of interest, not to mention the questionable ethics and morality of the situation.

 

I, however, will not comment on the morality of the situation. I am coming from a professional standpoint only.

 

And as a new, successful business owner, I pride myself on having the creme de le creme in my specialty. And part of that success comes from not only my reputation, but by the reputation of the people that work for me.

 

WA

[sb129]

Thanks WA, I appreciate where you are coming from.

 

It must get so confusing with all the states having different laws!

[Lucky_One]

"Its very difficult to fire people these days without good documentation of verbal and written warnings, and/or proof of the sackable offense."

 

Not so. Nearly every state in the US is an "at will" state, meaning that the employer can fire an employee for nearly any reason, just or unjust. "Your position is not necessary at this time." "Your behavior is not what I like to see in my employees."

 

You can't be fired for race, ethnicity, religion, etc - Civil Rights Act of 1964. But fired for the way you dress or the fact that you spend company time online for personal chatting? Yep.

[Lookingforward]

I think Wyld already had/has misgivings about this situation or she wouldn't have posted here about it.

 

I feel part of the problem is that she already knows the answer but doesn't want to listen to that "quiet voice inside" because it conflicts with what she "wants"

[luvmy2ns]

I think Wyld already had/has misgivings about this situation or she wouldn't have posted here about it.

 

I feel part of the problem is that she already knows the answer but doesn't want to listen to that "quiet voice inside" because it conflicts with what she "wants"

 

She can't hear that "quite voice inside" 'cause there's been a much louder one leading her in the other direction. The sad thing is, she's listening to it.

[Tomcat33]

I think Wyld already had/has misgivings about this situation or she wouldn't have posted here about it.

 

I feel part of the problem is that she already knows the answer but doesn't want to listen to that "quiet voice inside" because it conflicts with what she "wants"

 

 

I agree I've said this a million times around here and I will say it again, I am a firm believer that people already know what they will do before they reach out for help on what to do on any specific situation.

 

 

No one can make anyone do anything and it is very rare, if ever, that people act on advice alone.

[herenow]

I agree I've said this a million times around here and I will say it again, I am a firm believer that people already know what they will do before they reach out for help on what to do on any specific situation.

 

 

No one can make anyone do anything and it is very rare, if ever, that people act on advice alone.

 

You may have said this a million times, but it's the first time I have read it. I do agree that most people have already made their decisions on how to handle a situation and are looking for people to agree and solidify what they already know.

[Tomcat33]

You may have said this a million times, but it's the first time I have read it. I do agree that most people have already made their decisions on how to handle a situation and are looking for people to agree and solidify what they already know.

 

That's ok you wouldn't know everytime I have said it, it would be creepy if you did.

I'd suggest "click on my back posts" and read them but I wouldn't wish something that tedious upon my worst enemy.

[herenow]

That's ok you wouldn't know everytime I have said it, it would be creepy if you did.

I'd suggest "click on my back posts" and read them but I wouldn't wish something that tedious upon my worst enemy.

 

If I had read it before, this is something you and I would have agreed on long ago. Just think how different things could have been.

[Chinook]

I'm an RN. Just in response to the points about the firing and this situation - it's a different situation here in the UK, we couldn't fire someone without reasonable grounds for dismissal. This would be a major headache here in the UK. In the USA it seems alot simpler and a firing would be in the OPs future.

 

But...

 

From a personal (albeit professional) viewpoint as a RN... as soon as things started to change. THAT is the point the OP should have changed assignments. I had this discussion with my colleagues at work recently - notably the difference between professional 'caring for' patients and personal 'caring about' patients. With nurses, it is inherently possible to 'care for' patients without 'caring about' them. That is the simple line which has been crossed here. The OP should, no matter what her feelings for the H step back from this assignment - it calls into question her professional integrity at a personal level and I suspect, it is this issue which is deeply troubling her, not whether she should continue the relationship at some point (it's clear that is going to happen if/when the spouse passes).

[Tomcat33]

If I had read it before, this is something you and I would have agreed on long ago. Just think how different things could have been.

 

 

Oh let's not dwell on the past when we have a whole new bright future ahead of us...think of all the lost time we can catch up on now! Besides lately we have greed on more things than we used to, so that's good.

 

It is my personal philosophy that people already have the answer within themselves. Each person has their own way of handling a circumstance given the unique factors of their own situation. General concepts can be debated to the death but the facts are exclusive to a specific situation.

In the case of this situation I think Wyld already knew what she needed to do, an if she had doubts it is because she was lookinng for a way to make the negative feelings go away. When people make you feel worse for your choices or if you express you are on the fence about something only to be made to feel worse you are not open to exploring the other side of the equation you just resist it.

[Tomcat33]

From a personal (albeit professional) viewpoint as a RN... as soon as things started to change. THAT is the point the OP should have changed assignments. I had this discussion with my colleagues at work recently - notably the difference between professional 'caring for' patients and personal 'caring about' patients. With nurses, it is inherently possible to 'care for' patients without 'caring about' them. That is the simple line which has been crossed here. The OP should, no matter what her feelings for the H step back from this assignment - it calls into question her professional integrity at a personal level and I suspect, it is this issue which is deeply troubling her, not whether she should continue the relationship at some point (it's clear that is going to happen if/when the spouse passes).

 

 

Chinook can I ask you something, you being an RN I am extremely intersted in your view on this, what if the care of the patient will suffer because the person caring for the patient had become and integral part of the process. Both emotionally and professionally speaking. Let's say this person has become almost like family to the patient, what is your take on how the sudden removal will affect the patient psychologically speaking and how would you propose that gets worked around?