His wife is a ventilated quadriplegic.

[Walking away]

Allow me to share my experience:

 

RN's are to care for their patients, yes. But we are to separate our feelings from our job. I agree with Chinook. A line has been crossed.

 

We are not to get personally involved. For if we did, we would be a wreck everytime a patient coded or died. And that just isn't condusive to good care for the families we care for OR for ourselves.

 

We, in essence, anesthetize ourselves while being compassionate and caring.

 

We must remain professional and detached. It sounds cold but it isn't. It is how we give exceptional care. Chinook said it well. We care ABOUT our patients without caring FOR them.

 

We just cannot get personally involved. It is psychologically dangerous.

[Walking away]

Chinook can I ask you something, you being an RN I am extremely intersted in your view on this, what if the care of the patient will suffer because the person caring for the patient had become and integral part of the process. Both emotionally and professionally speaking. Let's say this person has become almost like family to the patient, what is your take on how the sudden removal will affect the patient psychologically speaking and how would you propose that gets worked around?

 

It is okay to feel like "family" with a patient. It is not okay to get romantically involved with the family while caring for the patient.

 

The patient would be hurt, to be sure, if the OP left her post, but ultimately her future psychological pain would be spared if she is, in fact, aware of what is going on.

 

And based on the original post by the OP, this lady is cognizant of her surroundings as she can mouth words. She is a quad, but she still has all of her brain function and feelings.

[Tomcat33]

Allow me to share my experience:

 

RN's are to care for their patients, yes. But we are to separate our feelings from our job. I agree with Chinook. A line has been crossed.

 

We are not to get personally involved. For if we did, we would be a wreck everytime a patient coded or died. And that just isn't condusive to good care for the families we care for OR for ourselves.

 

We, in essence, anesthetize ourselves while being compassionate and caring.

 

We must remain professional and detached. It sounds cold but it isn't. It is how we give exceptional care.

 

We just cannot get personally involved. It is psychologically dangerous.

 

 

You can share your experience but it is the form of judgement. It is too bad because I asked a specific question of an RN and you are a nurse too but you did not answer my question, you just said what the caregiver SHOULD not have done. And we know that, we get it, I get it I understand it I also support it BUT we KNOW that the caregiver has crossed a line here so flogging a dead horse in terms of could have should have would have is not going to solve nothing and will only keep the situation intact and immobile.

 

So then if you can give an answer to this it would be great to hear it from you too since you are also a nurse:

 

What if the care of the patient will suffer because the person caring for the patient had become and integral part of the process? Both emotionally and professionally speaking. Let's say this person has become almost like family to the patient, what is your take on how the sudden removal will affect the patient psychologically speaking and how would you propose that gets worked around?

 

In addition how would you propose a person remove themselves from a situation that is so vested from all angles it is not just as cut an dry as I leave someone else takes over I would think there is intensive training that needs to happen in order for the next person get up to speed in terms of offering the same level of care etc. There are children here too, don't forget children who probably rely on the maternal support this caregiver is offering to them since they don't really have a mother figure to rely on given the unfortunate and distressing situation their mother is in.

 

I just want some rational thoughts put forth on how to move forward in a way that is best of all is that possible at all? Because I keep seeing, "you have to remove yourself" but no one talks beyond that.

[Tomcat33]

It is okay to feel like "family" with a patient. It is not okay to get romantically involved with the family while caring for the patient.

 

The patient would be hurt, to be sure, if the OP left her post, but ultimately her future psychological pain would be spared if she is, in fact, aware of what is going on.

 

And based on the original post by the OP, this lady is cognizant of her surroundings as she can mouth words. She is a quad, but she still has all of her brain function and feelings.

 

 

AGAIN, enough with the judgements let's think solutions.

 

Introducing to this woman that her caregiver and H are romantically involved is NOT an option, give me a break! You can't expect either one of them to come clean to that woman in the condition she is in. She is more than likely oblivious to the idea and knowing this could potentially destroy her emotionally why do that to her in her last days!?!?

[Tomcat33]

I get it I understand it I also support it BUT we KNOW that the caregiver has crossed a line here so flogging a dead horse in terms of could have should have would have is not going to solve nothing and will only keep the situation intact and immobile.

 

 

woopsy I mean anything, or is going to solve nothing

[Walking away]

I understand what you are saying and I answered the question. The patient would be sad. But, she would be spared the pain of seeing the relationship unfold before her very eyes. She isn't brain damaged. She is paralyzed.

 

You remove yourself from the situation professionally. There are 7 people who care for this woman. The OP isn't the only caregiver. They would simply replace her.

 

It would seem that the OP is very attached to this entire family. That should not have happened. But, perhaps the family is attached to the other caregivers also.

 

Patients do get attached, as do ALL people with others in their lives, but if it was explained in a professional manner that the OP was leaving out of personal reasons, I don't see how the patient would suffer.

 

She is getting good care from the others and I would believe that the person that would replace her would be just as good. Many, many nurses are trained to care for this type of patient.

 

So, to answer your question: You explain that for professional reasons, you must move on.

 

People go on. It may hurt, but people do go on.

[Walking away]

AGAIN, enough with the judgements let's think solutions.

 

Introducing to this woman that her caregiver and H are romantically involved is NOT an option, give me a break! You can't expect either one of them to come clean to that woman in the condition she is in. She is more than likely oblivious to the idea and knowing this could potentially destroy her emotionally why do that to her in her last days!?!?

 

 

they should tell about their affair. Where you got that is beyond me.

 

I am stating that this woman is not brain dead.

 

NO ONE knows that she is oblivious to this situation.

 

And, BTW, I am not judging. I am stating the ethics of nursing, something I trust that I am schooled in.

 

However, you wouldn't understand, as you are not a nurse.

[Lookingforward]

You're missing something here though TC -

There are children here too, don't forget children who probably rely on the maternal support this caregiver is offering to them since they don't really have a mother figure to rely on given the unfortunate and distressing situation their mother is in.

 

That is NOT the role of the caregiver to the PATIENT to fulfill the maternal role for her children..............

 

This is REALLY crossing the lines between professional duty and personal caring. I would sincerely hope that Wyld isn't putting herself in that position, regardless of her feelings for the H and his for her.

[Lookingforward]

they should tell about their affair. Where you got that is beyond me.

 

I am stating that this woman is not brain dead.

 

NO ONE knows that she is oblivious to this situation.

 

And, BTW, I am not judging. I am stating the ethics of nursing, something I trust that I am schooled in.

 

However, you wouldn't understand, as you are not a nurse.

 

From Wyld's posts she claimed the W would 'be devestated' if she knew the true situation, I am not sure why some posters keep insisting the patient is not a "whole person" because they have severe physical limitations. they are not a vegetable, they are still a thinking human being.

[whichwayisup]

There are children here too, don't forget children who probably rely on the maternal support this caregiver is offering to them since they don't really have a mother figure to rely on given the unfortunate and distressing situation their mother is in.

 

Probably? Do you know this for a fact? Did wyld say this?

 

How do you know that the wife doesn't have a sister, who would be the kids aunt. If wyld IS infact trying to be a 'mother figure' to those children, sorry, but both personally and professionally speaking, she is waaay offbase. IF this is really happening, wyld has put herself in a very dangerous spot that could burn her badly in the future.

[Lookingforward]

The H & W had only been married for 3 years prior to her illness/accident - it's even possible these are older children from a previous R.

[Chinook]

Tomcat, as a RN - I don't see how my judgment couldn't be impaired with respect to caring for the patient if I had feelings for the H.

 

I'm sorry if that sounds harsh and people don't want to hear it but inner feelings about something or someone no matter how much I care about my role in that person's life are going to be affected. That's human nature. Nurses are schooled professionally to be aware of this and to do something about it if it happens.

 

As human beings, for eons we have all been schooled in gut instinct, nuances of facial expression and body language. Some people call it sixth sense, some people say 'I didn't know how I knew, I just knew'. The fact is, we learn all about these nuances through our genetics and our experiences. I suspect the OPs patient won't need to be told there is something between her nurse and her H. She already knows it... and can't do a damn thing about it. For that reason alone the OP should ask to be reassigned.

 

No nurse is so good at her job in such close quarters that she can hide ALL of her body language and ALL of her facial expressions and feelings. I would challenge the OP to say that she does - if she did, she wouldn't care and wouldn't be posting at all. It simply would not be an issue.

 

Many years ago, I worked in critical care. I took care of one man over a period of a couple of months. Day in and day out, I was his nurse. He could only communicate with his eyes because he was ventilated. My feeling for the man was that he was a patient, vulnerable and in my care. I did my utmost to take care of him with compassion and empathy. Explaining everything that would happen to him and being careful with how he was handled etc. One day a male nurse took over his care for a shift because my speciality expertise was required with another patient. I went to say hi to my patient during my break, to see how he was doing. During those brief moments - he clutched my hands and asked me not to leave him again. Without realising it on my part, he had grown attached to me and was feeling things for me which I hadn't realised. This was a lovely, nice guy. I did the respectful thing and asked to be reassigned to someone else. When he left ICU he was visibly upset and made his family buy me a gift for 'saving his life' (which I probably did). It upset me because I cared about him alot. He's one of those patients you remember and it would have been very easy to grow attached to him in the same manner - but I didn't. I stepped away from it. After he went home, I never heard from him again. Whilst this isn't quite the same situation - the H is still vulnerable and IS still emotionally depending on the OP. That needs to stop. A line has been crossed and needs to be rectified right away.

[Tomcat33]

Ok thank you we can move forward.

 

I understand what you are saying and I answered the question. The patient would be sad. But, she would be spared the pain of seeing the relationship unfold before her very eyes. She isn't brain damaged. She is paralyzed.

 

Ok let me stop you right here.

 

"the patient would be sad"

 

is that good for someone who is already dealing with all this floodgate of emotions to begin with. To leave her with the unceratinty of WHY why did she abandon me? how would you explain that to this woman after a bond had been established without coming clean and telling her "I have to leave because I am falling in love with your H" How could you do that and not signficantly affect the W?

 

 

She would be spared a pain that you or I can speculate she will feel, if the two of them are sure not to cross any lines infront of this woman there is nothing more to speculate on and therefore no pain to keeping things as they are. I understand you "IF they cross lines" it could destroy the W but what IF not?

 

 

 

 

You remove yourself from the situation professionally. There are 7 people who care for this woman. The OP isn't the only caregiver. They would simply replace her.

 

 

Ok but you keep repeating the same thing, just HOW do you remove yourself walk me through the process of how you would explain to this woman you can no longer care for her?

 

It would seem that the OP is very attached to this entire family. That should not have happened. But, perhaps the family is attached to the other caregivers also.

 

I don't know that I am speculating on what she has told us HERE plus what I would imagine happens when you are working this closely in an emtionally intense situation such as this one.

 

When my grandmother was in the hospital many years ago for an operation the nurse in charge in the evenings that would come around was exremely rude to my her on one occasion because her english was not up to par, and the nurse must have been having an off day, in the morning after we complained we received and apology. The incident should not have happened my gmum was out of it and her limited English was not a reason to treat her like an animal BUT IT HAPPENS. People are people at the end of the day regardless of what they do for a living.

 

 

People go on. It may hurt, but people do go on.

 

 

Interesting you don't see a problem with hurting her in one way but in another way she can just "get over it"

[Tomcat33]

I am not sure why some posters keep insisting the patient is not a "whole person" because they have severe physical limitations. they are not a vegetable, they are still a thinking human being.

 

Because she is a completely incapacitated, she can barely communicate and cannot move anything other than her eyes and her lips to mouth a few words, do you honestly think she is not like a vegetable?

[whichwayisup]

as a RN - I don't see how my judgment couldn't be impaired with respect to caring for the patient if I had feelings for the H.

 

I asked wyld how she would feel if she overheard an intimate conversation between him and his wife - If she heard him tell his wife that he loved her, would miss her when she's gone, whatever that personal conversation would be, as well as him holding his wifes hand, sitting with her, holding her..Wyld said she would be hurt and feel jealous on an emotional level but said that it would not get in the way of her care for the wife. This is why this situation is like a timebomb waiting to go off..Not in anyway am I saying wyld is capable of doing something wrong with the care of her patient, but on an emotional level the closeness she has with the husband, she could subconsciously prevent HIM from spending one on one time with his wife, by using a medical excuse of why he can't be near her at that particular time - Or interrupt saying it's time to take care of her now, you have to leave the room.

 

I know I'm reaching her, worst case senario -devils advocate- But it IS something that 'could' happen.

[Walking away]

Ok thank you we can move forward.

 

 

 

Ok let me stop you right here.

 

"the patient would be sad"

 

is that good for someone who is already dealing with all this floodgate of emotions to begin with. To leave her with the unceratinty of WHY why did she abandon me? how would you explain that to this woman after a bond had been established without coming clean and telling her "I have to leave because I am falling in love with your H" How could you do that and not signficantly affect the W?

 

 

She would be spared a pain that you or I can speculate she will feel, if the two of them are sure not to cross any lines infront of this woman there is nothing more to speculate on and therefore no pain to keeping things as they are. I understand you "IF they cross lines" it could destroy the W but what IF not?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ok but you keep repeating the same thing, just HOW do you remove yourself walk me through the process of how you would explain to this woman you can no longer care for her?

 

 

 

I don't know that I am speculating on what she has told us HERE plus what I would imagine happens when you are working this closely in an emtionally intense situation such as this one.

 

When my grandmother was in the hospital many years ago for an operation the nurse in charge in the evenings that would come around was exremely rude to my her on one occasion because her english was not up to par, and the nurse must have been having an off day, in the morning after we complained we received and apology. The incident should not have happened my gmum was out of it and her limited English was not a reason to treat her like an animal BUT IT HAPPENS. People are people at the end of the day regardless of what they do for a living.

 

 

 

 

 

Interesting you don't see a problem with hurting her in one way but in another way she can just "get over it"

 

I see a REAL problem with hurting her one way or another. The OP should have thought of this before she continued the affair.

 

This problem should never have happened.

 

And, I offered a solution.

 

Better to having sad feelings than be devastated by the possible knowledge of her husband having an affair.

 

To me, it is the lesser of the two evils.

 

Chinook....help me out here...

[luvmy2ns]

Because she is a completely incapacitated, she can barely communicate and cannot move anything other than her eyes and her lips to mouth a few words, do you honestly think she is not like a vegetable?

 

A vegetable cannot mouth words, nor think cognitively.

 

As for getting over losing her caregiver, I think that would be MUCH easier than getting over the fact that her caregiver stole her H in her dying days when she needs him most.

 

Let the body cool. The caregiver can have her H when the W has stopped breathing.

[Lookingforward]

how you would explain to this woman you can no longer care for her?

 

She is a PROFESSIONAL , being paid to do a job. Professionals sometimes have to leave jobs for all KINDS of reasons.............why is a case like this so different?

[Lookingforward]

Because she is a completely incapacitated, she can barely communicate and cannot move anything other than her eyes and her lips to mouth a few words, do you honestly think she is not like a vegetable?

 

NO, she is not a vegetable - she can THINK and FEEL - it is her body that is paralysed, not her MIND

[Walking away]

Because she is a completely incapacitated, she can barely communicate and cannot move anything other than her eyes and her lips to mouth a few words, do you honestly think she is not like a vegetable?

 

 

Did you really just say this?

 

Read on "vegetables and brain death".

 

SHE IS PARALYZED. Just because her body doesn't move does NOT mean that her brain is dead.

[Tomcat33]

Ok thank you Chinook for your thoughful an very detailed post.

 

No nurse is so good at her job in such close quarters that she can hide ALL of her body language and ALL of her facial expressions and feelings. I would challenge the OP to say that she does - if she did, she wouldn't care and wouldn't be posting at all. It simply would not be an issue.

 

That's true I can see that, nurses are not super human though their actions tend to be at times I do have a lot of respect for what they do.

 

Many years ago, I worked in critical care. I took care of one man over a period of a couple of months. Day in and day out, I was his nurse. He could only communicate with his eyes because he was ventilated. My feeling for the man was that he was a patient, vulnerable and in my care. I did my utmost to take care of him with compassion and empathy. Explaining everything that would happen to him and being careful with how he was handled etc. One day a male nurse took over his care for a shift because my speciality expertise was required with another patient. I went to say hi to my patient during my break, to see how he was doing. During those brief moments - he clutched my hands and asked me not to leave him again. Without realising it on my part, he had grown attached to me and was feeling things for me which I hadn't realised. This was a lovely, nice guy. I did the respectful thing and asked to be reassigned to someone else. When he left ICU he was visibly upset and made his family buy me a gift for 'saving his life' (which I probably did). It upset me because I cared about him alot. He's one of those patients you remember and it would have been very easy to grow attached to him in the same manner - but I didn't. I stepped away from it. After he went home, I never heard from him again. Whilst this isn't quite the same situation - the H is still vulnerable and IS still emotionally depending on the OP. That needs to stop. A line has been crossed and needs to be rectified right away.

 

 

That's what I'm talking about patients do become attached...

 

the man in your situation made YOU feel uncomfortable because you suspected there were sexual or romantic feelings involved and I can see why you would want to remove yourself.

 

In this case there is none of that, it is woman to woman closeness. And I don't see how that can be avoided when you are tending so closely to someone like in this situation?

[whichwayisup]

To leave her with the unceratinty of WHY why did she abandon me?

 

All she has to be told is, another patient somewhere else is in critical condition and unfortunately wyld has to leave as she has been assigned to someone else. I am sorry, but I doubt very much this mans wife would crumble and her health worsen due to wyld leaving.

 

she can barely communicate and cannot move anything other than her eyes and her lips to mouth a few words, do you honestly think she is not like a vegetable?

If this is the case, then why does wyld say that his wife gave him the blessing to move on. She herself said she's spent one on one time communicating and talking with her patient and she was completely in a state of understanding what is going on.

[luvmy2ns]

I thought we were talking about the man to woman closeness here...

[Tomcat33]

Did you really just say this?

 

Read on "vegetables and brain death".

 

SHE IS PARALYZED. Just because her body doesn't move does NOT mean that her brain is dead.

 

 

Well of course the brain is not dead but when you get to be to the level of deterioration that this poor woman is in I can't imagine you being of perfect cognitive function, gees people who are depressed can become vegetables with fully abled bodies imagine what this woman's mental state is!?!? That is what I mean by her state being vegetative. Think of how the depression must affect her too.

[Walking away]

You have a vehemence about this situation as if you were involved personally.

 

It seems to me that by the OP's description of the patient that the patient is fully cognitive. Depression, BTW, does not affect cognitive functioning.

 

And I am just offering professional opinions.

 

I'm sorry if they are not suitable to you.