Suggestion box for ls

[NoIDidn't]

**** i just pressed 'alert us' on your post by accident NID - sorry if owt happens

 

interesting you say its more acceptable to be the ow than the affairee. i used to be a habitual cheater - to me, being the OW is just never ever something id even consider (neither is cheating now), and bearing in mind i cheated on long term partners for about 15 years, to me its a millions miles away from anything id entertain. i just wouldnt do it, and i see OW/OM as something i dont understand as ive never been there, although i bring it back to its base level of the reasons someone would be a OM/OW and then i find it easier to have empathy - the reasons people get into abusive relationships, cheat, have dysfunctions or be the ow arent all that far away from each other

 

Oh, don't get me wrong. I did say its considered more acceptable to bash the OW, but that doesn't mean that I am all for it. Its a waste of energy for both. The basher and the *bashed*, LOL. It puts both on the offensive and it offers nothing constructive.

 

ITA with the "looking for the wrong thing" statement you made in an earlier post. BTDT. I grew up around tons of dysfunctional people. My household was more functional than most, even though it was headed by a single woman. I can understand the draw from an emotional stance, but the logistics and rationale of such relationships makes me want to run far, far away. KWIM?

[Lookingforward]

**** i just pressed 'alert us' on your post by accident NID - sorry if owt happens

 

interesting you say its more acceptable to be the ow than the affairee. i used to be a habitual cheater - to me, being the OW is just never ever something id even consider (neither is cheating now), and bearing in mind i cheated on long term partners for about 15 years, to me its a millions miles away from anything id entertain. i just wouldnt do it, and i see OW/OM as something i dont understand as ive never been there, although i bring it back to its base level of the reasons someone would be a OM/OW and then i find it easier to have empathy - the reasons people get into abusive relationships, cheat, have dysfunctions or be the ow arent all that far away from each other

 

Interesting you list all these things in the one sentence...........

[NatoPMT]

I guess the feeling I get about the OP is that it isn't really about anything except telling the BS (in a very condescending manner) to basically play nice or leave. And, again, there is nothing "nice" IMO about adultery. Just saying.

 

It you watch any debate where the opposing sides are passionate about their position, there is always bound to be conflict. Take that and add betrayal and you get sparks and sometimes fire.

 

passion doesnt have to follow with anger or disrespect though i think - you can be passionate but maintain your humanity

 

i think kat would say her op was in response to people bashing ow's and the bashers saying to ow 'youre crap bugger off'. it works both ways, i think kat did relent somewhat on that. and i hope that she will have empathy to those bashing her, just as others have asked for empathy in seeing why a BS would be outraged by an ow

[NatoPMT]

Interesting you list all these things in the one sentence...........

 

cos i often see parallels in the reasons behind all those things. If that causes ow's to feel justified in saying they dont align themselves to those other issues, thats fine, but however different the outcomes in behaviour, ive seen common roots in many personal issues - theyre just expressed differently

[Lookingforward]

passion doesnt have to follow with anger or disrespect though i think - you can be passionate but maintain your humanity

 

i think kat would say her op was in response to people bashing ow's and the bashers saying to ow 'youre crap bugger off'. it works both ways, i think kat did relent somewhat on that. and i hope that she will have empathy to those bashing her, just as others have asked for empathy in seeing why a BS would be outraged by an ow

 

Then if the BS are so "outraged" by the very existence of OW perhaps it behoves them to not come into an OW forum - just sayin

[whichwayisup]

It's funny though, when a MM does post in this section, he gets bashed, has accusations thrown at him, and what some OW get upset about sometimes they feel that a BS bashes them like they are the OW in their life, that the OW is the husband's OW...Yet when the MM posts, OW jump on him and bash him like he's the enemy and he's the MM in their situation as well. (wow the heat is getting to me so I hope that makes sense!).

 

Everyone just deserves common decency and respect. Yet some pick and choose, who gets it and who doesn't.

[Cliche]

I guess the feeling I get about the OP is that it isn't really about anything except telling the BS (in a very condescending manner) to basically play nice or leave. And, again, there is nothing "nice" IMO about adultery. Just saying.

 

But sometimes, just sometimes, it serves a purpose. May not be the best means to an end, but it is one path that usually means that a member of the M needs to change or move on....very important realizations.

[KATANYA]

theres the problem in the difference of how its seen, i know youre done with the thread kat, and i can understand why, but most people dont believe that joy and happiness is found within an affair - some joy yes, but its not a happiness that can be rooted in what i understand of happiness - granted my view is only my view, but to me, to find an affair as the right, true end to your search for that happiness indicates that the ow is looking for the wrong thing (my version of 'wrong'), and it can be very frustrating to see that this concept cant be challenged in an OW but i understand why. for eg If my set of values are challenged by someone who disagrees and i accept im wrong, then i am at square one again and my whole set of ideals, understanding and the achievement ive made through that understanding is based on falsehood. i have to defend what i think is right, or i could be wrong about everything and i dont want to upset my status quo

 

i do also think that i can only deliver my opinion and accept if its not agreed with - i cant force my way of seeing things on others, but i can hope they will listen

 

 

I know what you are saying BB and I understand where you are coming from. I certainly not trying to insinuate that an affair is "the right, true end to your search for that happiness". It just goes back to my comments from much earlier in this thread where I said that true happiness lies within yourself. I don't care if your significant other is your spouse, your OP or whatever.......you will never have true happiness with someone else until you have found true happiness within yourself!

 

In my particular case (and I am only speaking for myself) I have a wonderful friendship with a man who happens to be married. Our relationship could be very complicated if we let it but neither of us do. He brings a great deal of joy and happiness to my life and I hope that I, in turn, do the same for him. We have been friends for over a decade and have been involved on and off for three years. He has been the strength that I needed to get through some of the worst moments of my life battling a serious illness. I am not saying he is the 'end' of my search for happiness because he is not. He is simply someone who shares a special part of my life.

 

I don't feel like I only have 'part' of him; I don't feel I am in competition with his W or family; I don't feel like he is getting his 'cake' and I am getting used.........I simply feel we have a relationship that works in that it meets both of our needs AT THIS TIME. I don't sit waiting for him when he is not with me; I don't spend hours waiting for a phone call or text; I don't analyse his words or speculate what he is doing with his family/wife when we are not together. I am, quite simply, happy with what we have together. I know he will always be a part of my life in some way.........what else can I say?

[whichwayisup]

K, I hope your health continues to improve.

[NatoPMT]

Oh, don't get me wrong. I did say its considered more acceptable to bash the OW, but that doesn't mean that I am all for it. Its a waste of energy for both. The basher and the *bashed*, LOL. It puts both on the offensive and it offers nothing constructive.

 

ITA with the "looking for the wrong thing" statement you made in an earlier post. BTDT. I grew up around tons of dysfunctional people. My household was more functional than most, even though it was headed by a single woman. I can understand the draw from an emotional stance, but the logistics and rationale of such relationships makes me want to run far, far away. KWIM?

 

the basher and the bashee? better than banshee

 

sorry im unfamiliar with this BTDT? help me out on that one

 

but yes, i agree

 

i personally have found that my past issues have been expressed through so many mess ups (some so messy that i care to ignore them, even now when ive tried to examine and understand my past behaviours - a few i need to just lock in a box and store marked 'do not open'), but never being on OW, but then when i speak to ow, i see that im not a million miles away from them. and i also see parallels between BS and OW

[herenow]

passion doesnt have to follow with anger or disrespect though i think - you can be passionate but maintain your humanity

 

i think kat would say her op was in response to people bashing ow's and the bashers saying to ow 'youre crap bugger off'. it works both ways, i think kat did relent somewhat on that. and i hope that she will have empathy to those bashing her, just as others have asked for empathy in seeing why a BS would be outraged by an ow

 

I don't want to sound like a broken record, but I don't think I was clear. I think there are times when it helps to see the true anger and resentment that affairs cause. I say this for both the BW and the OW. When our eyes are open to the pain that can happen, again to both sides, we can start to understand each other. There are OW's here that I spared with viciously when I first came here and now we have a mutual understanding that we were both victims of the affair and we were both hurt. We both came here betrayed and bitter and through our posts, that bitterness subsided into a more civil way of communication.

 

Obviously an OW who is happy with being in an affair won't see my point, but again that is her prerogative. I would never tell someone how to live their life.

[NatoPMT]

Then if the BS are so "outraged" by the very existence of OW perhaps it behoves them to not come into an OW forum - just sayin

 

if they feel such strong emotions, i agree, youre right, those strong emotions come from their own issues that need more attention than focusing on OW on this forum

[NatoPMT]

It's funny though, when a MM does post in this section, he gets bashed, has accusations thrown at him, and what some OW get upset about sometimes they feel that a BS bashes them like they are the OW in their life, that the OW is the husband's OW...Yet when the MM posts, OW jump on him and bash him like he's the enemy and he's the MM in their situation as well. (wow the heat is getting to me so I hope that makes sense!).

 

Everyone just deserves common decency and respect. Yet some pick and choose, who gets it and who doesn't.

 

that again indicates to me that the OW do know that they arent happy with their situation or at least have some residual anger themselves, although im generalising as kats MM's wife seems to have her own life, and i cant condemn her situation as she seems to be fitting into an existing dynamic without creating a dynamic in someones life that wouldnt exist without her intervention - however, i dont know if thats the mm's yarn on their situation or the reality

 

im jealous youre hot. its raining and miserable here. boo.

[NatoPMT]

But sometimes, just sometimes, it serves a purpose. May not be the best means to an end, but it is one path that usually means that a member of the M needs to change or move on....very important realizations.

 

i agree with that. but its rare that its not a someone's detriment - whether its the spouse, the om/ow or the cheater - someone usually gets hurt, even if the affair isnt discovered as such, someone usually walks away eventually feeling hurt or confused or off the path theyd have taken without the affair

 

for me, im glad i did what i did, as its resulted in me being happy and also being able to accept peoples flaws. but unless you work very hard at reaching that, you can end up carrying the bagged for the rest of your life - thats too big a risk to take in my opinion. Even if youre happy with the current state of your relationships, its rare that it doesnt affect your perspective of fidelity in some way

 

im lucky in that as it was me cheating, i know i wont again so ive finally been able to put it in the past, but when its others cheating on you or with you, it can result in you seeing cheating relationships as inevitable

[NatoPMT]

I know what you are saying BB and I understand where you are coming from. I certainly not trying to insinuate that an affair is "the right, true end to your search for that happiness". It just goes back to my comments from much earlier in this thread where I said that true happiness lies within yourself. I don't care if your significant other is your spouse, your OP or whatever.......you will never have true happiness with someone else until you have found true happiness within yourself!

 

In my particular case (and I am only speaking for myself) I have a wonderful friendship with a man who happens to be married. Our relationship could be very complicated if we let it but neither of us do. He brings a great deal of joy and happiness to my life and I hope that I, in turn, do the same for him. We have been friends for over a decade and have been involved on and off for three years. He has been the strength that I needed to get through some of the worst moments of my life battling a serious illness. I am not saying he is the 'end' of my search for happiness because he is not. He is simply someone who shares a special part of my life.

 

I don't feel like I only have 'part' of him; I don't feel I am in competition with his W or family; I don't feel like he is getting his 'cake' and I am getting used.........I simply feel we have a relationship that works in that it meets both of our needs AT THIS TIME. I don't sit waiting for him when he is not with me; I don't spend hours waiting for a phone call or text; I don't analyse his words or speculate what he is doing with his family/wife when we are not together. I am, quite simply, happy with what we have together. I know he will always be a part of my life in some way.........what else can I say?

 

do you feel that you have the right happiness in being with a man who provides what you need but is married - going back to what i said before, would it be more ideal for you to have the same thing but with a man who wasnt married?

 

i appreciate you dont feel that you need anything more from him, and his domestic situation allows you some peace of mind in what you are doing

 

all id say to you is that despite feeling comradery with other ow, they may not have your circumstance, so dont align yourself with others who are doing what you do but dont have the luxury of being ok with it, or the wife doing what the husband is out of understanding why they might

 

if the wife is loyal or unsuspecting, if theres kids involved, or if the ow is acting out their own dysfunctional issues through the affair, then you cant immediately assert your circumstance to theirs and approve their actions. which is what indiscriminate acceptance of ow can do - it can enable dysfunctions that have led to their ow status

 

i do think that some wrongs are more wrong.

[NatoPMT]

I don't want to sound like a broken record, but I don't think I was clear. I think there are times when it helps to see the true anger and resentment that affairs cause. I say this for both the BW and the OW. When our eyes are open to the pain that can happen, again to both sides, we can start to understand each other. There are OW's here that I spared with viciously when I first came here and now we have a mutual understanding that we were both victims of the affair and we were both hurt. We both came here betrayed and bitter and through our posts, that bitterness subsided into a more civil way of communication.

 

Obviously an OW who is happy with being in an affair won't see my point, but again that is her prerogative. I would never tell someone how to live their life.

 

yes, i did say that earlier - thats its necessary to see the absolute pain and anger affairs cause, but what i also said before was on ow wont listen to that as they feel they need to defend themselves, the anger will be ignored so many ow understand that they need to validate their actions, and sometimes it just too hard to take it on the chin. Thats why your perspective of reaching a mutual understanding is so valuable - its that that should be the goal.

[Cliche]

i agree with that. but its rare that its not a someone's detriment - whether its the spouse, the om/ow or the cheater - someone usually gets hurt, even if the affair isnt discovered as such, someone usually walks away eventually feeling hurt or confused or off the path theyd have taken without the affair

 

for me, im glad i did what i did, as its resulted in me being happy and also being able to accept peoples flaws. but unless you work very hard at reaching that, you can end up carrying the bagged for the rest of your life - thats too big a risk to take in my opinion. Even if youre happy with the current state of your relationships, its rare that it doesnt affect your perspective of fidelity in some way

 

im lucky in that as it was me cheating, i know i wont again so ive finally been able to put it in the past, but when its others cheating on you or with you, it can result in you seeing cheating relationships as inevitable

 

Boy, do I agree with you, BB. I think the outcome of infidelity, whether it results in a return tothe marriage or the end of the marriage, requires a lot of maturity and self introspection. If one is the BS who takes back the MM, they must learn to trust again and find ways to build a healthier, happier marriage. If they are the BS in an ended M, they have to learn to move on, start a new, happier life, and find a better way without bitterness. If they are the OW, they have to find what makes them happy and either move away from something destructive or have the trust and faith to work together to create an R that had a "less than perfect" start (and one that may get unnecessarily judged in certain circles). As carry a lot of baggage, but then, so do many second Rs after first marriages for a variety of reasons.

 

I don't advocate for affairs in any way. And I would tell anyone who was thinking about starting one to think twice. But the fact that they occur so often means that they probably serve some sort of purpose. And maybe, instead of just claiming some moral mandate that no one should ever stray, we should try to understand why and how they happen, and then try to help one another--BS and OW alike--make it through to the other side. It's life, it's dirty, but we have to keep living it. And we can mostly see joy in it or pain in it--our choice--but we can't always control it.

[NatoPMT]

just wanted to say how refreshing it is to be able to have this debate with 2 strongly opposing, deeply affected polar opposites in view without it ending up in insults and the anger that the thread was started about

 

its good to be back here

[NatoPMT]

Boy, do I agree with you, BB. I think the outcome of infidelity, whether it results in a return tothe marriage or the end of the marriage, requires a lot of maturity and self introspection. If one is the BS who takes back the MM, they must learn to trust again and find ways to build a healthier, happier marriage. If they are the BS in an ended M, they have to learn to move on, start a new, happier life, and find a better way without bitterness. If they are the OW, they have to find what makes them happy and either move away from something destructive or have the trust and faith to work together to create an R that had a "less than perfect" start (and one that may get unnecessarily judged in certain circles). As carry a lot of baggage, but then, so do many second Rs after first marriages for a variety of reasons.

 

I don't advocate for affairs in any way. And I would tell anyone who was thinking about starting one to think twice. But the fact that they occur so often means that they probably serve some sort of purpose. And maybe, instead of just claiming some moral mandate that no one should ever stray, we should try to understand why and how they happen, and then try to help one another--BS and OW alike--make it through to the other side. It's life, it's dirty, but we have to keep living it. And we can mostly see joy in it or pain in it--our choice--but we can't always control it.

 

thats a sad but very relevant fact - the ideal is to create a society that values the right reasons for getting married (but even the origins of marriage negate what id call the right reasons, and its hard to fight against centuries of assumption and tradition), the right reasons for getting involved and that nurtures the understanding that the way to deal with marital issues is through communication and without blame or judgement. I know a lot of people feel responsible for making their oh happy which is a huge pressure - or they arent getting their needs met, or providing is too much pressure or accepting a gradual decline in intimacy that doesnt meet with our modern high expectations. everything seems disposable. if we accept having it all is accepting the flaws our spouses have - i mean by that recognising the battles that dont need to be fought rather than accepting the unhealthy

 

and the whole mismatch of mens perspectives and womens perspectives mean that we are not intrinsically compatible with the opposite gender. we need to understand our partners, and need to enter into relationships knowing that we are responsible for our own happiness - noone can fix us.

 

its 2.30am here and i think im a bit drunk now so forgive any ramblings

[White Flower]

just wanted to say how refreshing it is to be able to have this debate with 2 strongly opposing, deeply affected polar opposites in view without it ending up in insults and the anger that the thread was started about

 

its good to be back here

It is nice when we can work out our differences with intelligence instead of mudslinging. Again, I don't think the thread was started out with insults, but there was anger and frustration expressed and it is nice to see it worked out properly by most on this thread.

[White Flower]

I don't want to sound like a broken record, but I don't think I was clear. I think there are times when it helps to see the true anger and resentment that affairs cause. I say this for both the BW and the OW. When our eyes are open to the pain that can happen, again to both sides, we can start to understand each other. There are OW's here that I spared with viciously when I first came here and now we have a mutual understanding that we were both victims of the affair and we were both hurt. We both came here betrayed and bitter and through our posts, that bitterness subsided into a more civil way of communication.

 

Obviously an OW who is happy with being in an affair won't see my point, but again that is her prerogative. I would never tell someone how to live their life.

Very well stated, HN. You are still one of the most insightful and caring MW here. I still don't like to call you a BS because it kind of keeps you in that status and I'm sure you are well moved on from there.

[Lookingforward]

i used to be a habitual cheater[/u] - to me' date=' [b']being the OW is just never ever something id even consider [/b](neither is cheating now), and bearing in mind i cheated on long term partners for about 15 years, to me its a millions miles away from anything id entertain. i just wouldnt do it, and i see OW/OM as something i dont understand as ive never been there, although i bring it back to its base level of the reasons someone would be a OM/OW and then i find it easier to have empathy - the reasons people get into abusive relationships, cheat, have dysfunctions or be the ow arent all that far away from each other

 

 

Interesting perspective...........that being an OW is something you'd never consider although apparently cheating was okay.

[NatoPMT]

Interesting perspective...........that being an OW is something you'd never consider although apparently cheating was okay.

 

absolutely not ok, i felt so dreadful for decades. i kept chasing something trying to make me feel better, and each time it didnt happen. So i stepped further over the dark line trying to find what i was looking for, pushing it further and further, feeling gratifingly better momentarily, then it feeling worse when the 'come down' from my escapades hit

 

i was just saying that many dysfunctions have a similar root, but the expression is very different, by saying id never be an ow, i was creating a strong moral stance for myself, hoping that strong moral would somehow cancel out my severe failings in other areas

 

edit: and my personal search for scratching my insecurity overrules any true understanding of the damage i was causing. I was possibly sociopathic in my lack of remorse and feeling i had a right to do what i wanted and my arrogance

 

edit 2: but i feel that as i have managed to overcome that, i can always remember how bad i felt without even realising, so i think i can feel empathy with anything that goes against the code ive created to keep me happy. As i so didnt understand what i needed to do, stop pushing things more and more as expecting broken behaviour to make me happy, then topping it with even more broken behaviour was the cycle i was stuck in

[Lyssa]

I didn't see it as ugly or obvious. She was dismayed that ppl who are not OM/OW would jump on a board that is designed to support them and bash them. She was disheartened and hurt by the frequency of this action. It is very understandable.

 

If I could speak for her I would say that she found the bashers to have ugly intentions by preventing the OM/OW to share their feelings and frustrations in their path for clarity and decisions. What was obvious to me was her intention in getting the typical angry BS (there is a difference among BS's) to step up to the plate and refrain from bashing.

 

Let people post. Let the experts in their field or forum quide them. Believe it or not, we do learn from our experiences and mistakes.

 

Good post, WF.

[Lookingforward]

absolutely not ok, i felt so dreadful for decades. i kept chasing something trying to make me feel better, and each time it didnt happen. So i stepped further over the dark line trying to find what i was looking for, pushing it further and further, feeling gratifingly better momentarily, then it feeling worse when the 'come down' from my escapades hit

 

i was just saying that many dysfunctions have a similar root, but the expression is very different, by saying id never be an ow, i was creating a strong moral stance for myself, hoping that strong moral would somehow cancel out my severe failings in other areas

 

edit: and my personal search for scratching my insecurity overrules any true understanding of the damage i was causing. I was possibly sociopathic in my lack of remorse and feeling i had a right to do what i wanted and my arrogance

 

edit 2: but i feel that as i have managed to overcome that, i can always remember how bad i felt without even realising, so i think i can feel empathy with anything that goes against the code ive created to keep me happy. As i so didnt understand what i needed to do, stop pushing things more and more as expecting broken behaviour to make me happy, then topping it with even more broken behaviour was the cycle i was stuck in

 

 

okaaaaay......... so if you were a habitual cheater but not an OW, I assume you weren't single.......which would make you a MW? Or you were cheating with someone that WAS attached ? How then is "never being an OW" taking a strong moral stance ? I'm sorry - I'm not haranguing you, just trying to unravel your thought processes here...

 

There seem to be some disparities in what you're saying.....