Guys: It's Our Fault

[kizik]

I know what you're saying, yes there were "signs," but she still loved me and still expressed that love and that's what kept me in it. Honestly I don't care to rehash the last three years or the first 1.5 years, b/c it will hurt too much. Oh f*ck it.

 

Signs:

 

-Worrying about talking about people in public. Anyone. The person I mentioned could be in another country and R would go, "Ssh!"

 

-Talking to her parents every day. Exchanging text messages and picture messages multiple times a day. Obviously still tied to the umbilical cord. (This would occur whether or not I was around.)

 

-Her expressing that her dad had basically said I was a loser. Her ambivalence about my career choice (lack thereof).

 

-The total tension when she and my mom and I would get together. Eventually we just stopped seeing my mom.

 

-Her embarrassment about her parents' money. Once we were with friends and I mentioned how nice it was that R lived in the art studio next door to her parents' house. R got f*cking PISSED at me after. Does getting angry at me there make sense to ANYone?

 

 

This one is important:

 

The Hair Incident. She got a bad haircut, really short. Donated the hair to Locks of Love. When she was out of town, I asked if she could send me a picture of her new haircut, "so I could get used to it."

 

People, this elicited the most venomous anger towards me EVER. Culminated with her kicking me out of her house, saying "LEAVE," and crying hysterically.

 

I would really like opinions on that last one.

[extraordinarymachine]

You poor thing, kizik, you got burned, honey.

 

Being a big feminist myself makes me cringe to hear you say those things, but I also understand as a human being that you were hurt, REALLY BADLY.

 

I could get into a big ideological debate about the fact that being a woman in our society is still very, very hard (despite appearances), but I don't think that's really what you need to hear. Here's what I think is:

 

I think you just dated a lousy excuse for a real woman.

 

Real women want to be respected. They want to be allowed to have their own dreams and goals. They want you to support them and maybe yes, even hold them when they cry, but they do not want you to be their doormat.

 

Being a strong woman, I find that I date guys who tend to swing far into the side of letting me be who I am without allowing me to be a woman sometimes! The last guy I dated (the one whom is currently causing me to be less than that strong woman, be here on this forum, be in a pretty big mind **** for a lot of the time), fully believed in my ability to become the big-shot kind of lady I envision myself becoming, but also didn't ever let me fail this endeavor.

 

Crying made him uncomfortable to the point of him sometimes being mean in response (and no, I don't cry at the drop of a hat) and this man wouldn't have done something slightly unreasonable but ultimately loving for any amount of money (i.e. dropping off coffee while I am at work when he is within reasonable driving distance) because he figured I could do it for myself. Sure, I could, but any woman loves to be LOVED! Let me sometimes watch reruns of friends and don't laugh at me! (Maybe you could even snuggle up with me, I tend to be very turned on by that kind of sacrificial giving of time and I can assure he would not have been disappointed had he done so, if you get what I'm saying . Let me be a little cranky, just once in a while. (truly, I am not hell on wheels, but we all have our days) Let me sometimes, just once, be indecisive at a store! (The one and only time I recall taking more than five minutes he began to roll his eyes.)

 

All this to say that in my pursuit of fitting into his idea that men should be hard-asses turned out to be not very good for me at all, though at the time I envisioned us as a highly independent, functional couple.

 

All this to say that all relationships require give and take. It's not about not being a real man or woman, it's about RESPECT. Preach it, Aretha.

 

Never again should you let a woman treat you like s-h-i-t for fear of sexual consequences. Any woman worth her salt knows sex isn't a prize or a bargaining chip. Never again should you let someone be ridiculous beyond reason, "womanly" behavior or not.

 

I know someday I'm going to make a man really happy, I truly do, but he sure as hell is not going to be one who is cruel to me for the sake of his manhood, because that's not manhood at all. I don't think you really believe that being a jerk=being a real man is true either, kizik.

[extraordinarymachine]

This one is important:

 

The Hair Incident. She got a bad haircut, really short. Donated the hair to Locks of Love. When she was out of town, I asked if she could send me a picture of her new haircut, "so I could get used to it."

 

People, this elicited the most venomous anger towards me EVER. Culminated with her kicking me out of her house, saying "LEAVE," and crying hysterically.

 

I would really like opinions on that last one.

 

 

My thoughts on that are this:

 

Had you said that to me, I would have jokingly let you know that was a weird way to word it and ask if you just mean that you want to know what it looks like. You'd say yes, and the crisis would be averted.

 

I know it sounds weird, but I've cut my hair off for Locks of Love before and women have a weird psycho-social thing about their hair. It's a little traumatic chopping it off to be honest. I'm always convinced I look like a boy.

 

HOWEVER.

 

she should DEFINITELY not have had such a hysterical reaction. That's ridiculous. and had she freaked like that, she should have come crawling back with a thousand apologies and explained that it was hard for her to change her image so drastically and that she worried you wouldn't like it and maybe she didn't like it either.

 

in any case, she sounds like a crazy one, to be honest. good riddance, honey.

[kizik]

EM,

 

I really appreciate your perspective and the above two posts. No, I don't think than being a harda$$ equals being a real man. I just don't wanna be that "nice guy" anymore. It got me into a lot of trouble.

 

I get what you mean about the hair thing being kind of a hot topic. And even though it looked awful, of course I told her it was fine. Her reaction to my request for a picture message of it, basically encapsulated ALL of her self-hatred. She was so AWFUL to put it on ME like that.

[borelandkaren]

And I had the other side of the fence where Tony thought it was okay to have and demand sex from me anywhere from 1-6 times per day! And no, I'm not kidding. Is this what a "man" is. I know it's not and I understand that he was coming from a position of insecurity but for ****s sake. I couldn't move without him wanting to grab me and race me off and it didn't matter where we were, either. He was in so many ways the man I wanted and needed because he was a "real" man but in too many ways did he violate my rights. Basically, he "raped" me for 5 1/2 years and if I said no, well look out. I was abused to the point of having to leave the house for a week or so at a time and then because my financial life was all tied up with him, I didn't have much choice but to go back for another onslaught. What we need is BALANCE. I love a guy who knows my innermost secrets and doesn't feel the need, if we have an argument, to tell the world about them. I like him to be able to have fun with me and do silly things, like put nail polish on his toes or to straighten my hair for me or do all of the intimate things I'd do with a girlfriend. I also love for him to be able to be "blokey" and build sheds and pour concrete with me. I love SNAGS. I thought I had this with him because he TOLD me that this was who he was. He lied.

[extraordinarymachine]

EM,

 

I really appreciate your perspective and the above two posts. No, I don't think than being a harda$$ equals being a real man. I just don't wanna be that "nice guy" anymore. It got me into a lot of trouble.

 

I get what you mean about the hair thing being kind of a hot topic. And even though it looked awful, of course I told her it was fine. Her reaction to my request for a picture message of it, basically encapsulated ALL of her self-hatred. She was so AWFUL to put it on ME like that.

 

Totally agree. She was downright evil to make you feel her hurt, not fair at all. Especially when you strike me as the kind of guy who would have been supportive had she been vulnerable enough to say, "I feel kind of ugly now"...because one of those every once in a while feels kinda good when you're with the kind of guy who says, "Baby, you are LOVELY, no matter what." You know? I get the feeling you are that guy. And that guy...is a nice guy. Don't let him get lost in the bitter aftermath

[Touche]

I know what you're saying, yes there were "signs," but she still loved me and still expressed that love and that's what kept me in it. Honestly I don't care to rehash the last three years or the first 1.5 years, b/c it will hurt too much. Oh f*ck it.

 

Signs:

 

-Worrying about talking about people in public. Anyone. The person I mentioned could be in another country and R would go, "Ssh!"

 

-Talking to her parents every day. Exchanging text messages and picture messages multiple times a day. Obviously still tied to the umbilical cord. (This would occur whether or not I was around.)

 

-Her expressing that her dad had basically said I was a loser. Her ambivalence about my career choice (lack thereof).

 

-The total tension when she and my mom and I would get together. Eventually we just stopped seeing my mom.

 

-Her embarrassment about her parents' money. Once we were with friends and I mentioned how nice it was that R lived in the art studio next door to her parents' house. R got f*cking PISSED at me after. Does getting angry at me there make sense to ANYone?

 

 

This one is important:

 

The Hair Incident. She got a bad haircut, really short. Donated the hair to Locks of Love. When she was out of town, I asked if she could send me a picture of her new haircut, "so I could get used to it."

 

People, this elicited the most venomous anger towards me EVER. Culminated with her kicking me out of her house, saying "LEAVE," and crying hysterically.

 

I would really like opinions on that last one.

 

Well just for the record, I'm no feminist. Just needed to get that out there.

 

Ok, do you really have to ask about all of this? Come ON! See? The signs were there but you were blinded. Don't do that again! I don't care how gorgeous she is...if you do you'll end up right back where you are now.

 

As to the rest...puhleeze. You already know it's insane behavior. She's a drama queen.

 

The haircut thing especially...I would have just laughed and said "sure, silly!"

 

She's clearly an immature GIRL. Find yourself a woman next time. One who appreciates a real gentleman and won't crap all over him.

[Touche]

Totally agree. She was downright evil to make you feel her hurt, not fair at all. Especially when you strike me as the kind of guy who would have been supportive had she been vulnerable enough to say, "I feel kind of ugly now"...because one of those every once in a while feels kinda good when you're with the kind of guy who says, "Baby, you are LOVELY, no matter what." You know? I get the feeling you are that guy. And that guy...is a nice guy. Don't let him get lost in the bitter aftermath

 

Good post. Especially that last sentence. That's what I worry about. That's why I said that bit about not getting bitter. Stupid girls like that can do that to a guy sometimes. Make him turn bitter and angry and just into an ass instead of just a MAN who isn't a doormat.

 

Don't let that happen. Your problem isn't about you but about your choice in the person you picked. Remember that.

 

But yeah, don't be a doormat. Women will respect you if you stand up for yourself. It's the same with we women. My ex treated me like crap when I was a doormat. I let him. When you stop letting people get away with tantrums and shyt like she pulled, they'll either stop or they should go in the reject pile.

[kizik]

I'd cry if I could. Only 17 posts in to LoveShack and you've been quite insightful and supportive, not just to me but many others. If you feel the need to continue posting here, your intelligence and excellent prose will surely help more to come.

 

This hair thing has plagued me for over a year. You never know who's right when it's just the two of you, and you both have sh*tty self-esteem. It means a lot to get an objective opinion on it.

 

She's so crazy. She really was very emotionally abusive to me. I cannot believe she is out there, thinking she's a decent person. She needs therapy but she'll never get it b/c she'll never know how awful she is. I'll certainly never tell her.

 

Nice guy... yes. But even in the 2.5 month interim since the breakup, I've been able to identify bitchy behavior and sh*tty conduct in a way I hadn't before. You look at people's relationships and you envy them or pity them. There is no in between.

 

I won't be bitter. Thanks again for everything, extraordinarymachine.

[extraordinarymachine]

That's why I said that bit about not getting bitter. Stupid girls like that can do that to a guy sometimes. Make him turn bitter and angry and just into an ass instead of just a MAN who isn't a doormat.

 

Honestly believe this is what happened to my ex. The girl before me was just like your ex, kizik, totally cracked out INSANITY. Therefore he didn't let me get away with anything. It sucked.

[extraordinarymachine]

I'd cry if I could. Only 17 posts in to LoveShack and you've been quite insightful and supportive, not just to me but many others. If you feel the need to continue posting here, your intelligence and excellent prose will surely help more to come.

 

Oh gee, let's not let my over-inflated ego grow any more! haha, but really, thank you so much, that's very sweet of you to say.

 

This hair thing has plagued me for over a year. You never know who's right when it's just the two of you, and you both have sh*tty self-esteem. It means a lot to get an objective opinion on it.

 

I feel you on the loss of perspective. Glad to help.

 

She's so crazy. She really was very emotionally abusive to me. I cannot believe she is out there, thinking she's a decent person. She needs therapy but she'll never get it b/c she'll never know how awful she is. I'll certainly never tell her.

 

She's a big girl. If she can't figure it out, no amount of other people telling her will help anyway. I feel sorry that she will be so miserable and make others miserable until she sees a need to change.

 

Nice guy... yes. But even in the 2.5 month interim since the breakup, I've been able to identify bitchy behavior and sh*tty conduct in a way I hadn't before. You look at people's relationships and you envy them or pity them. There is no in between.

 

Well, that's probably a good thing to develop.

 

I won't be bitter. Thanks again for everything, extraordinarymachine.

 

again, so very welcome. glad to hear you're not going to hang onto it forever (not discounting getting that anger out bc it was clearly valid, but letting it pass is also valid.)

[Darth Vader]

This is how my R with the ex started. This is how they all start.

 

You see, the most confusing, self-defeating part is this: it's always good at first. It was good for about a year and a half for me.

 

With some time, she revealed herself to me. Revealed herself to be very angry, unforgiving, picky, mean and critical.

 

When people hide their true colors... all bets are off.

 

 

The sex couldn't have been that GOOD to have stayed with that?! Was it?

[kizik]

The sex couldn't have been that GOOD to have stayed with that?! Was it?

 

I don't know, Darth. Any sex to me was good sex. I've only slept with 3 women, and she was one of them. Simultaneous orgasms and all that jazz. Whatever.

[LikeCharlotte]

I know what you're saying, yes there were "signs," but she still loved me and still expressed that love and that's what kept me in it. Honestly I don't care to rehash the last three years or the first 1.5 years, b/c it will hurt too much. Oh f*ck it.

Reflection isn't always bad. That is how we learn

 

 

-Worrying about talking about people in public. Anyone. The person I mentioned could be in another country and R would go, "Ssh!"

Was she embarrassed of your opinion or just really self-conscious?

 

-Talking to her parents every day. Exchanging text messages and picture messages multiple times a day. Obviously still tied to the umbilical cord. (This would occur whether or not I was around.)

That is a little odd. Do you think it meant that she wasn't ready to grow up? It's good to have strong family ties but a person needs an independent life too. A sure sign that she wasn't ready to see you as part of her "family".

 

-Her expressing that her dad had basically said I was a loser. Her ambivalence about my career choice (lack thereof).

With what you said about her and her parents that can't have been a good feeling. You deserve support in important life decisions.

 

-The total tension when she and my mom and I would get together. Eventually we just stopped seeing my mom.

Maybe she thought there was some kind of competition or judgment... like there obviously was with/for her with her parents.

 

-Her embarrassment about her parents' money. Once we were with friends and I mentioned how nice it was that R lived in the art studio next door to her parents' house. R got f*cking PISSED at me after. Does getting angry at me there make sense to ANYone?

No. It makes no sense at all. Why was she angry that you mentioned that it was a nice place and set up? I don't get it.

 

 

This one is important:

 

The Hair Incident. She got a bad haircut, really short. Donated the hair to Locks of Love. When she was out of town, I asked if she could send me a picture of her new haircut, "so I could get used to it."

 

People, this elicited the most venomous anger towards me EVER. Culminated with her kicking me out of her house, saying "LEAVE," and crying hysterically.

 

I would really like opinions on that last one.

Did you say you liked it, or didn't? You were simply asking for a photo of her new cut. Way over the top! You are better off without her kiz and I am glad you are starting to see the real reasons why. Keep it up!

[ioncebelieved]

Kizik, I have 13 years on you and let me say you got a long way ahead of you and you surely will find better.

 

Quick story. I was eating at a restaurant a week or so ago with my dad and nephew. Our waitress exhibiting the same bitchy behavior that you so eloquently point that you have come to recognize. She made a smart ass comment about who said I could be the boss or something like that to me while we were ordering. I came back with because I am the man! I could tell that she did not like being challenged in such a manner!!

 

I made the comment to Only point out she was acting bitchy! When you call people on their crap.. you know the crap others put up with, it hurts their little bitty feelings. The spoiled women crap!!!

 

I will never apologize for being the man I am!!

[Kamille]

I refuse to patronize any company who places commercials that depict males in general as innefectual or intellectually defective. I obviously choose not to watch any television program who does it. Sitcoms that portray men as buffons while cannonizing women are not funny. Why bother watching?

What, you mean like "The Simpsons"?

[TalkLikeLion]

true, unless you're the guy that makes his girlfriend(s) so scared to call him or be around him that they aren't getting away with any behavior at all because they aren't given the chance or allowed to. And then they're accused of it.

 

Two sides to everything. Not all men let their girls get away with everything- some of them don't let us get away with anything, including having our own personalities.

 

I'm talking extremes here, aren't I. I should shut up and sleep.

[kizik]

You're talking about the differences between active and passive abuse. I'm sorry you had to deal with that sh*t. Definitely, emotional abuse is not gender-specific.

[replicator]

I know that being emotionally needy, and subservient is never an attractive quality. However, I too often hear women complaining about how insensitive men are. When we try to cater to their needs, then we're too effeminate. Some of us try to over compensate this fault by being machismo, which doesn't work out too well either. It's confusing...

 

I'm just following the policy of being myself, but knowing that I need to become a stronger person. We can all improve. I never again want to be dependent on anyone for my own happiness. I'll be a man and stand up for my partner, but I'll listen to what she has to say. I just won't lower myself to let her disrespect me, and accept it in the name of love.

[Lookingforward]

The problem as I see it is....nice decent men get treated like crap by a woman...decide after it's over to never be like that again...and the next nice decent woman that comes along and falls for them gets the chitty end of the stick and pays for the way their guy was treated previously

 

so basically, women can't win either...........

[justaman99]

The problem as I see it is....nice decent men get treated like crap by a woman...decide after it's over to never be like that again...and the next nice decent woman that comes along and falls for them gets the chitty end of the stick and pays for the way their guy was treated previously

 

so basically, women can't win either...........

 

That's what I don't want to happen. I don't want this experience to jade me. I know I was good just didn't have someone that appreciated it and most of all respected me. It's tough not to be burned by an experience like we had but we'll come back and find someone that suits us better and can appreciate what we offer.

 

It's a way of thinking. In a sense we let them continue beating us down even after it's over because we weren't good enough for them when we were in the relationship yet we still feel we need to change what I would consider positive traits after them. I understand learning from our own mistakes but I refuse to not be the nice giving and loving guy I am.

 

-Just

[TalkLikeLion]

That's what I don't want to happen. I don't want this experience to jade me. I know I was good just didn't have someone that appreciated it and most of all respected me. It's tough not to be burned by an experience like we had but we'll come back and find someone that suits us better and can appreciate what we offer.

 

It's a way of thinking. In a sense we let them continue beating us down even after it's over because we weren't good enough for them when we were in the relationship yet we still feel we need to change what I would consider positive traits after them. I understand learning from our own mistakes but I refuse to not be the nice giving and loving guy I am.

 

-Just

 

 

Just keep sticking with the knowledge that it's not because you weren't good enough. You're right, don't let it jade you. I'm not exactly one to talk, I know, but seriously, it's never because you weren't good enough. Especially if it was because the other person was manipulative or even just ridiculous in general.

[kizik]

Right, I think it's a mistake to see the breakup as a reflection of ourselves. Certainly we all realize things we could have done better, or simply things we could have done to "stand up for ourselves"... but in the end, it's not love that is the problem, it's our exes. But more importantly, the way we let them treat us.

 

Being jaded is a form of being bitter and I'm not the kind of person that could EVER close his heart up, keep it locked away. It's always out there for anyone who really wants to see it.

[nopainnogain]

My ex was bitter so in turn made me bitter. Aftrer we split I realized how much I became like her. A bitter,low self esteem ,glass half empty person. Its been 3 months and slowly Im gettin back to my old self. Not judging people and with the mentality no one is better than me nor am I any better than anyone.

[borelandkaren]

Obviously it's hard not to take baggage from every r/s to the next but I think that every new person we meet has to be treated on their own merits, love or friendship. It's not their fault that the people we had before treated us like shyte.