I'm an idiot (distant) husband.

[highfive]

well she seems to be disconnecting... most likely because you describe your inactions with her.

 

you recognize the problem - but you aren't willing to act on it.

 

once a gal has a foot out the door - the less your chances of making things right.

 

what's so difficult with my suggestions from earlier? or did you make an effort for alone time with her tonight? do some simple kind gestures for her and her well being?

 

start thinking of ways to show her that you are making an effort for her and for both of you to reconnect on different levels. kiss her neck from behind, tell her something sweet about herself, buy her some perfume...

 

i don't know - but tell me what you are doing to try!

 

Thanks. Today I did buy her a gift and a card, and told that I am going to work and travel less, and that I completely understand her anger. I suggested that we should spend some time alone together but I don't think she is there yet.

 

I have recognized the problem, I know I need to change and I am doing so. Any other advice?

[Ronni_W]

My wife has now told me that she wants 3 to 4 days away

^5, I've been where your wife is. It's not necessarily that she has it in her mind that this is a teeny-tiny first step to leaving you. (It could be, but my best guess is that chances are that it's not about that...yet.)

 

When I started doing stuff like that, it was about trying to get him to appreciate the gravity of MY situation, and that OUR marriage was at stake. I hoped that he would (finally!) come to comprehend that his occasion-specific "I'm very sorry...I understand how you're feeling" gifts, cards and words were just NOT going to do it for very much longer. (Of course, they used to work for him, and for me, and for us, for years and years. And, I think, he just thought I was kidding or something about having reached my point of needing MUCH MORE than that.)

 

It's kind of like he kept on feeding himself his same old, same old crap. I don't know his specific excuses and justifications. But how it all looked to me, in the end, is that he just didn't give a rat's behind -- he couldn't be bothered to make the real and genuine efforts and changes that were needed to bring the marriage back to a place where it was truly supporting and encouraging and uplifting for BOTH of us.

 

And you do have the same option -- to not make the efforts, and to not do what you already know needs to be done. And likely she will see that as YOU not giving a rat's behind...as her not being worth that effort.

But. When she leaves, you will at least know why and won't have to expend any energy and emotion on trying to figure it out. So, that would be a (future) positive outcome of your current lack of 'doing'.

 

Alternatively, go and find yourself a therapist. (I promise not to say that again. .)

[noforgiveness]

You said she had a really hard time with the kids the last time you were gone. Maybe she just really reallly needs a kid break and doesn't feel that you appreciate all she does for the family. 4 days of you with the kids should wake you up to that.

 

Either that or she has a boyfriend and wants a mini vacation with him.

 

She's really giving mixed messages. You are not here enough. I don't get enough time with you oh but hey I want to go away without you. Maybe get some family involed and spend a weekend alone together at a spa.

[highfive]

^5, I've been where your wife is. It's not necessarily that she has it in her mind that this is a teeny-tiny first step to leaving you. (It could be, but my best guess is that chances are that it's not about that...yet.)

 

When I started doing stuff like that, it was about trying to get him to appreciate the gravity of MY situation, and that OUR marriage was at stake. I hoped that he would (finally!) come to comprehend that his occasion-specific "I'm very sorry...I understand how you're feeling" gifts, cards and words were just NOT going to do it for very much longer. (Of course, they used to work for him, and for me, and for us, for years and years. And, I think, he just thought I was kidding or something about having reached my point of needing MUCH MORE than that.)

 

It's kind of like he kept on feeding himself his same old, same old crap. I don't know his specific excuses and justifications. But how it all looked to me, in the end, is that he just didn't give a rat's behind -- he couldn't be bothered to make the real and genuine efforts and changes that were needed to bring the marriage back to a place where it was truly supporting and encouraging and uplifting for BOTH of us.

 

And you do have the same option -- to not make the efforts, and to not do what you already know needs to be done. And likely she will see that as YOU not giving a rat's behind...as her not being worth that effort.

But. When she leaves, you will at least know why and won't have to expend any energy and emotion on trying to figure it out. So, that would be a (future) positive outcome of your current lack of 'doing'.

 

Alternatively, go and find yourself a therapist. (I promise not to say that again. .)

 

Many thanks again Ronni, your words are very helpful and insightful.

 

I just took a few days off work to be at home, and my wife and I just had a long talk. I have been away a lot over for 10 days at a time for the last 3 months or so, on a big project that has now finished (Thank God!).

 

It is clear that my wife has felt neglected and isolated. When I have been around, I have been distracted and preoccupied about work. She knows that I have to work (I am the sole bread-winner; we decided a long time ago that it would be best for her to stay home to raise our two children), and I don't think she minds that I am away, she just wants me to be there 100% when I am home. I know when I am preoccupied and not paying attention to her. My mind knows it is happening but it can't shift off the "work button".

 

I love my wife dearly. I have never been abusive or disrespectful, and I consider her to be my best friend; I would do anything for her. I really do care and am going to make the changes required. I now understand the gravity of her situation and I do want to make the effort to change the way I am. Problem is that I don't really know what to do, so I will need help. I'm just a stupid male, remember?

 

I have, however, sorted some things out for myself:

 

- Gifts and cards are not working; she just said as much. As your husband did, for me gifts were a guilty attempt at an easy-fix, knowing that I have done wrong but not sure how to do right.

 

- HER BIGGEST COMPLAINT ?: I DON'T LISTEN: I must learn to listen, with understanding, to every word that she says. Even when I am preoccupied, I am still very affectionate, caring and active around the house, I just don't listen well. I hear her words but my brain does not properly record what she is saying. Its not that I don't care about what is saying, it is just that my mind is too busy to comprehend.

 

Are there any tips, websites or books on how to listen attentively? I think if I start with this, the rest will come fairly naturally. My mind is often too busy too listen. Sounds like I should get some counseling.

 

Stay tuned...

[highfive]

 

EDIT: Another 'thing to do' -- learn, especially, about how to listen: http://www.coping.org/dialogue/content.htm

That will be key for you when you two get to discussing each others questionnaire answers. And also, learn how to better express your own wants and needs -- again, for when you are opening up about your own answers to said questionnaires.

 

DOH! Just re-read the thread and saw this. Thanks Ronni!

[Ronni_W]

DOH! Just re-read the thread and saw this. Thanks Ronni!

You also wrote: "Problem is that I don't really know what to do, so I will need help. I'm just a stupid male, remember?"

Well, I'm glad you saw that earlier post cos, as much as I don't like referring back to my own posts, I WAS going to do just that! (Are you appreciating how much I am willing to 'sacrifice' for YOUR marriage? .)

 

^5, there are NO easy fixes. I can't stress that enough. So...go and reread post #17. THAT is what you really ought to do for yourself.

I know: it looks arduous, torturous, unappealing, unattractive, "I'd rather have root canal work without anesthetic while elephants danced on my 'nads."

It is all of that. But divorce is even worse.

 

I love my wife dearly. I have never been abusive or disrespectful, and I consider her to be my best friend; I would do anything for her.

 

Okay. Now I'm starting to believe that you ARE, in fact, my ex-husband. He said that to me, he said that to the marriage counselor, he freakin' WHINED that to anyone who would listen to him. (You didn't have a whiney tone when you wrote that, did you??? .)

 

Here is what I told my ex: Please do not do "anything" for me. Do just ONE thing. And, please do not do "everything" for me. Do SOMEthing.

 

And. We can discuss our opinions/definitions of 'abusive' and 'disrespectful', and I WILL make an excellent case that you HAVE been exactly that towards her. At very least, have at times demonstrated your ability to be that, to her. NOT necessarily in your perception or within your definition...but more than likely in hers.

 

It is about how your actions and behaviours have impacted her, I mean. It's not about your intentions and definitions and inability to "help and control yourself" from being neglectful and distant. She is done (or getting there) hearing about, and being patient and understanding about that.

 

Do not just go and sit in your counseling sessions and wait for your answers to fall from the sky (or the counselor's mouth) -- like my ex did.

Your marriage needs your actions, your thinking, your self-reflections, your accessing of your emotions. I posted before about trying to figure out the benefits that you are consciously or unconsciously deriving from your current attitudes, beliefs and behaviours. Your marriage needs you to NOT ignore it when your therapist asks you to think about stuff like that. Your answers aren't in the sky or the therapist's head. They are within you.

 

Your marriage needs YOU, ^5. I can't stress that enough.

 

PS: "I'm just a stupid male" is another piece of BS that won't fly. It usually ends up that the male is not stupid at all...or is not stupid enough. In your case, you've already proven that you are not stupid at all. Sad, huh? So quit BS'ing yourself, wouldja? (Cos your wife and other interested parties sure ain't buying what you are trying to sell!!! We need a new catalog from which to make our selections, please )

[Ronni_W]

Its not that I don't care about what is saying, it is just that my mind is too busy to comprehend.

For her, it is EXACTLY the same as if you didn't/don't care about what she is saying. For her, your BS excuse does not make an iota of difference to how she feels when you don't hear her.

 

(Are you getting this, yet? I'm really, really rooting for you to get it!)

[2sunny]

when you are talking or interacting you can repeat back to her what was said - like - what i heard you say was ____________. Is that correct honey? if she clarifies for you do not be upset.

 

you can also write things down so she knows you are paying attention and don't want to miss anything or forget for later reference.

 

refer to you notes if need be. they are your reminder of what's important TO HER!

 

do not dismiss the little things she finds merit in. the little things she points out add up to big things.

[imagine]

Shucks...

 

Reread Ronni's much earlier postwhich suggested your visiting the marriage builders site. The articles there are written by a very, very experienced and successful marriage councilor and psychologist.

 

He will explain how you, like many other men, have compartmentalized your life. He will explain how many actions in the right direction can truly restore and improve your marriage.

 

You will also get the idea that sending your wife away on holiday on her ownsome , is none too bright.

 

Yes, your wife has been neglected. You and 100% of us husbands need to learn how better to understand those areas of neglect.

 

Yep! Listen to the folks here: stop talking, more listening and sustained actions.

 

Books: His Needs/ Her Needs, The five languages of love, Falling in Love Staying in Love

 

There are courses too, depending where you stay.

[highfive]

Well, I'm glad you saw that earlier post cos, as much as I don't like referring back to my own posts, I WAS going to do just that! (Are you appreciating how much I am willing to 'sacrifice' for YOUR marriage? .)

 

^5, there are NO easy fixes. I can't stress that enough. So...go and reread post #17. THAT is what you really ought to do for yourself.

I know: it looks arduous, torturous, unappealing, unattractive, "I'd rather have root canal work without anesthetic while elephants danced on my 'nads."

It is all of that. But divorce is even worse.

 

I love my wife dearly. I have never been abusive or disrespectful, and I consider her to be my best friend; I would do anything for her.

 

Okay. Now I'm starting to believe that you ARE, in fact, my ex-husband. He said that to me, he said that to the marriage counselor, he freakin' WHINED that to anyone who would listen to him. (You didn't have a whiney tone when you wrote that, did you??? .)

 

Here is what I told my ex: Please do not do "anything" for me. Do just ONE thing. And, please do not do "everything" for me. Do SOMEthing.

 

And. We can discuss our opinions/definitions of 'abusive' and 'disrespectful', and I WILL make an excellent case that you HAVE been exactly that towards her. At very least, have at times demonstrated your ability to be that, to her. NOT necessarily in your perception or within your definition...but more than likely in hers.

 

It is about how your actions and behaviours have impacted her, I mean. It's not about your intentions and definitions and inability to "help and control yourself" from being neglectful and distant. She is done (or getting there) hearing about, and being patient and understanding about that.

 

Do not just go and sit in your counseling sessions and wait for your answers to fall from the sky (or the counselor's mouth) -- like my ex did.

Your marriage needs your actions, your thinking, your self-reflections, your accessing of your emotions. I posted before about trying to figure out the benefits that you are consciously or unconsciously deriving from your current attitudes, beliefs and behaviours. Your marriage needs you to NOT ignore it when your therapist asks you to think about stuff like that. Your answers aren't in the sky or the therapist's head. They are within you.

 

Your marriage needs YOU, ^5. I can't stress that enough.

 

PS: "I'm just a stupid male" is another piece of BS that won't fly. It usually ends up that the male is not stupid at all...or is not stupid enough. In your case, you've already proven that you are not stupid at all. Sad, huh? So quit BS'ing yourself, wouldja? (Cos your wife and other interested parties sure ain't buying what you are trying to sell!!! We need a new catalog from which to make our selections, please )

 

Thanks again Ronni,

 

I am a man of action, I have seen the light, and I am going to change! I will do what is listed in post # 17, except that I should not tell my wife about the IC; I know her, and she thinks I should smarten up without the need for an IC.

 

What was the one thing that you wanted your husband to do?

 

I don't whine...too much

 

Hugs,

[Ronni_W]

, except that I should not tell my wife about the IC; I know her, and she thinks I should smarten up without the need for an IC.

I do 100% trust your judgment on that. Your wife's belief is inaccurate, in case you don't already know that. And if you ever need to give your reason for doing IC, just tell her: "Cos Ronni said she was gonna come 'round here and kick my butt, if I didn't. And Ronni is just a kinda scary broad...I was frightened." (And you ought to be, in case you don't already know that. <Insert verry scarry emoticon here. No...TWO of them!> )

What was the one thing that you wanted your husband to do?

I may need to get back to you, on this one. I didn't have a specific thing in mind -- I think the point was for him find out what he could do...or at least what he could try to do. (And then, of course, to actually make the fricken effort and try it. I can't say it would have mattered WHAT he did, or even if it was successful. Just to have been shown, in some noticeable way, that he gave a crap about whether the marriage/he was also fulfilling my needs and helping me feel good about myself and "us".)

 

So, basically, the one thing I needed for him to do was to look for his own answers and solutions, and START by taking action on any one of them. Instead of just staying helpless and waiting for me, or the counselor, or the heavens, to make things right for him or magically reveal his 'perfect plan' to him.

 

The way he acted, more accurately, his LACK OF ACTION combined with his same old, same old, "I'll do anything...I don't know what to do...I'll do everything..." is what ultimately done us in. That's all I do know. The "sorrys" and the "I really want us to works" just stopped having even the smallest of meanings, to me. In the end, I just saw them as more evidence of how little he cared and even worse, of how really small was his willingness to put in any real effort. Talk truly IS cheap...and he made it even cheaper, if that makes any sense?

 

Lemme tell you this, though. As I am seeing it, you have an opportunity here to save your marriage, that he never did.

To this day (10 years later), I don't think that he is any closer to knowing all the things that he could have tried. For him, "I do not know" is STILL valid (it's BS, but it's his "valid BS", if there is such an animal.)

 

And that can never be your truth, should your marriage end. You do know what to do. If your marriage ends, it'll just be because you were too lazy to make the effort to do what you knew you needed to do.

Part of that is gonna be that you would be taking for granted your wife's understanding, patience, kindness, love and empathy. I urge you not to do that. It is not a limitless supply, and it gets exhausted much faster, when she is feeling like she is feeling. That is, YOU exhaust it much faster with the "cheap" words and the lack of anything else.

 

Er. [end rambling.] Did I answer the question yet?

 

Hugs to you, too. I know you have the intellect and the information to do this. Do you have the 'nads and the determination? (You'll develop the insight, tools and skills in IC, so no worries about that.)

 

Wishing you the sheer bliss of a wonderful marriage and genuine partnership,

Ronni

[imagine]

 

What was the one thing that you wanted your husband to do?

 

 

 

I hope that this wasn't a serious question....

[carhill]

He sees it like another task; another job to complete and be successful at. Marriages aren't like that, I'm afraid.

 

You'll know the task is complete when your loving wife holds your hand and looks into your eyes as you expire in (hopefully) old age. That was how I knew my dad did "the job" right

[2sunny]

evidently - if it has gotten so bad that the marriage ending is being considered there are MANY things/areas of your marriage that need to be rectified.

 

take a good long look at ALL areas of your relationship and interaction with your wife and give it a full CRITICAL assessment from the standpoint of "how can I possibly make this ideal for both of us?"

 

not just a matter of making it better by slapping a temporary band aid on it - or you might as well call it quits now... marriage doesn't survive when it's on auto pilot.

 

the question remains - are you willing to do the hard work for the long hall to make this marriage work?

[imagine]

He sees it like another task; another job to complete and be successful at. Marriages aren't like that, I'm afraid.

 

You'll know the task is complete when your loving wife holds your hand and looks into your eyes as you expire in (hopefully) old age. That was how I knew my dad did "the job" right

 

 

This is exactly what they discuss in Marriage Builders as compartmentalism and usually men are guilty of this.

[Ronni_W]

He sees it like another task; another job to complete and be successful at. Marriages aren't like that, I'm afraid.

Hey you!

Quit being mean

 

Highfive is looking for his answers. In his quest for guidance and insight and trying to find a direction that will be right for him, EVERY question is a good and fair question.

He has not once demonstrated that he is so freakin' stoopid that, if I had answered, "to wash the dishes," he was gonna rush home and start washing dishes 24/7.

 

(Sorry to be talkin' about you in the 3rd person, ^5.)

[carhill]

to wash the dishes

 

I can say, after 10 years of doing that, unequivocally, it doesn't work

[2sunny]

the points noted above are true - seeing that she is most likely feeling emotionally disconnected from him now may be a bigger area to concentrate his energy.

 

listening is a start - find out what her NEEDS are - then take action on the areas that she is targeting. since she doesn't want time TOGETHER so much - that makes me think that this marriage needs immediate action on his part. time is of the essence.

 

sooooo - listen to her - then follow through with lots of effort. not just now, but it needs to be continuous or she'll just get skeptical about his intentions and think he finds her of little importance.

[highfive]

 

Hugs to you, too. I know you have the intellect and the information to do this. Do you have the 'nads and the determination? (You'll develop the insight, tools and skills in IC, so no worries about that.)

 

Wishing you the sheer bliss of a wonderful marriage and genuine partnership,

Ronni

 

Thanks Ronni. I do have the NADS and I am determined to make this marriage las another 18 years. Silly thing is that I always considered myself to be a good husband and father, and she recently said as much (before the recent crisis), but now I see that I was kidding myself, and that I must strive to be better.

 

The LISTENING thing is critical to success. It's too bad that some (maybe the majority) guys just don't get this part. They should teach it in school!

 

I have some new rules to get me started:

 

 

1. Arrange some IC
   
2. Turn the Blackberry off before you go home
   
3. Listen, listen, listen, with 100% attention. Take notes if you have to
   
4. Talk less, listen more
   
5. Don't make empty promises; just do what you know you have to do
   
6. When you are with her, be there with her. Don't let your mind be somewhere else
   
7. Love and support her as an individual, not as your's, but as your partner
   
8. Do as much as possible around the house. Don't ask what needs to be done; just look around and get on with it
   
9. Treat her with love and affection the way you would like to be treated
   

That's a short list to start. Any others?

 

H

[2sunny]

express your feelings to her - and show love and affection to her especially at times when you're NOT looking to bed her.

 

treat her as you would your most important person on the planet and allow her to understand that you feel that way with your words as well.

[highfive]

 

treat her as you would your most important person on the planet and allow her to understand that you feel that way with your words as well.

 

 

Thanks. That's an easy one, because she is my most important person

[Ronni_W]

I can say, after 10 years of doing that, unequivocally, it doesn't work

That's true -- but being handy with the 'hoover' and at the stove is a definite plus...if you wanna be with me. (And knowing how to shake the perfect gin martini. Well, maybe this one shoulda come first on my list.)

[Ronni_W]

I do have the NADS and I am determined to make this marriage las another 18 years.

You probably meant at least another 18 years, I'm intuiting.

Of course you were a good husband and father. And you STILL are...that's the only reason to be undertaking what you are undertaking. Husbands who suck eggs (as husbands, not as humans) wouldn't be bothering, my dear.

 

But. You make me laugh, with your "that's a short list". Don't dick around with it. It is an important list. Master three (3) things on this list and then worry about "what else". Like carhill said, it's not some freakin' competition or race or whatever. Do NOT make light of all the work that is ahead of you. It's work. It's fun work cos it'll bring you bliss, but it is still work.

 

1a. STOP all your BS and excuses and crap.

2a. LEARN some positive listening techniques, first. Look-up some websites.

3a. LEARN some positive conversation techniques, first.

 

10. Be open to the fact that NOT everything is going to be what and how SHE needs, likes or wants. (Don't take it personally when that happens.) Respond to what SHE says, not to what you heard or read somewhere, and not to what you think "should" be best.

 

11. Read the list every morning, afternoon and evening. Breathe it. Become it. (How very Zen of you.) Commit it to your mind but especially to your heart.

 

12. Keep us posted - we care!

[2sunny]

keep posting highfive... there are many great posters here that haven't touched your thread yet, but i like the direction you've received so far. good and bad days - we can be supportive.

 

i also admire your desire to make this work by putting forth your efforts. kind of refreshing compared to what we normally read here. soooo, i'm rooting for you and a great outcome!

 

remember that even on a frustrating day to keep your goals in mind. your wife will not necessarily respond the way you might like on a daily basis. this will test your patience. remember it took her a long time to get to the place she is now (mad, frustrated, giving up attitude). it will also take her equally as long to work her way back to trusting that you are willing to change for the better. keep that hope in the front of your mind and continue to work it even when you least want to.

[highfive]

You probably meant at least another 18 years, I'm intuiting.

Of course you were a good husband and father. And you STILL are...that's the only reason to be undertaking what you are undertaking. Husbands who suck eggs (as husbands, not as humans) wouldn't be bothering, my dear.

 

But. You make me laugh, with your "that's a short list". Don't dick around with it. It is an important list. Master three (3) things on this list and then worry about "what else". Like carhill said, it's not some freakin' competition or race or whatever. Do NOT make light of all the work that is ahead of you. It's work. It's fun work cos it'll bring you bliss, but it is still work.

 

1a. STOP all your BS and excuses and crap.

2a. LEARN some positive listening techniques, first. Look-up some websites.

3a. LEARN some positive conversation techniques, first.

 

10. Be open to the fact that NOT everything is going to be what and how SHE needs, likes or wants. (Don't take it personally when that happens.) Respond to what SHE says, not to what you heard or read somewhere, and not to what you think "should" be best.

 

11. Read the list every morning, afternoon and evening. Breathe it. Become it. (How very Zen of you.) Commit it to your mind but especially to your heart.

 

12. Keep us posted - we care!

 

Yes, I meant at least another 18 years

 

I am taking all this very seriously. I wrote the list so that I could Live it, Breathe it and Become it.

 

"1a. STOP all your BS and excuses and crap": Guess What? I finally, with your help, and the help of others on LS, understand this point. I now know that I have been doing this:

 

What I said: "I'm sorry to not be listening. My mind was elsewhere, thinking about work".

 

What my wife heard: "What you are saying is not as important as what I am thinking about. You are not as important as my work".

 

What a load of crap I was saying! I still can't understand why it took me so long to acknowledge and understand this! I know this is the thing that has upset her the most, and I now truly understand why. What an idiot I have been! The good news is that I now understand this, I have read tips on some Listening Skills websites, and have already started to change the way I listen to her.

 

I am going to work very hard at The List from this point forward. My marriage, her happiness, and my happiness, depend on it.

 

A heartfelt thanks to all of you, and to LS, for all your comments and suggestions. I will keep you posted.