I'm an idiot (distant) husband.

[highfive]

Believe it, chum!

 

And then start looking for the evidence to support your new belief.

You WILL find all the evidence that you will need. I will guarantee you that.

 

Wager whatever you want -- I'll guarantee you that you can believe that your wife is more into you than you could ever imagine being into her, and that you WILL find enough evidence to satisfy yourself.

 

If you believe it, and genuinely start looking for your supporting evidence -- wager whatever you want. If, in the next 4 to 6 weeks you don't start having SOLID evidence, then I will deliver the wager to your personally.

 

I am seriously that confident about this.

 

Thanks very much Ronni,

 

IT'S ON! I will follow your instructions and report back.

 

The wager? Hmmm.... If you are right I will start a whole new post, and you can choose the title! Agreed?

 

This post is starting to get a little long, but it has many hits! Looking back, the journey has been quite interesting and productive. I've learned so much, but I know there is so much more to learn.

 

Take good care,

[Ronni_W]

The wager? Hmmm.... If you are right I will start a whole new post, and you can choose the title! Agreed?

Well...I must admit to having become fairly attached to this thread

But fair enough -- I did, after all, say "wager whatever you want."

 

My early choice for your new thread title is: I'm a human husband - loving, lovable and imperfect.

(But I'm reserving my right to tweak that, or change it altogether.)

 

 

but long for the time when she was more proactive, because I felt an intense and strong connection with her and I would be high for days!

Problem there was, ^5, that your "intense, strong connection" and feeling "high for days" came from your low self-esteem, your mental errors, and your acting under-responsibly and like a victim.

 

It came at a HUGE cost to your wife; she suffered because of it. It's the dynamic that made her want to leave you!

 

So...I really can't imagine why you'd be longing to have that back? :confused:

 

---

In the meantime, keep looking for the hundreds of ways that your wife is showing you, day in and day out, how very much she's into you and how very much she loves you. She'll be doing that in her 'love language', from her free will choice...because she's into you and she loves you.

 

That is, don't be expecting or looking for her to cater to the needs of your low self-esteem, or to express her love how SchoolBoy wants it or thinks it "should be" expressed. Know what I'm saying?

[highfive]

Thanks Ronni,

 

I will continue to look for signs of her love in the manner you have suggested. From this journey I have reprogrammed my thought process and actions so that l am very much less needy for affection and attention as I used to be. Of course I do have brief

moments of weakness but I don't let them show, and they pass quickly.

Edited January 14, 2010 by highfive

[mem11363]

H5,

I like a lot of affection. I won't say I need it because if I sense wife feeling crowded I would back off - but I like it.

 

I very frequently come up behind her and gently give her a full body hug. And she always relaxes and leans backwards - into me - and says "that is so nice". But I initiate - that is just how it works. I don't wonder why she does not initiate - I don't really care. Pretty sure she likes it as much as me.

 

And it is not a sexual hug - not foreplay - just connection.

 

So when you talk about affection - is it something else?

 

Thanks Ronni,

 

I will continue to look for signs of her love in the manner you have suggested. From this journey I have reprogrammed my thought process and actions so that l am very much less needy for affection and attention as I used to be. Of course I do have brief

moments of weakness but I don't let them show, and they pass quickly.

[highfive]

H5,

I like a lot of affection. I won't say I need it because if I sense wife feeling crowded I would back off - but I like it.

 

I very frequently come up behind her and gently give her a full body hug. And she always relaxes and leans backwards - into me - and says "that is so nice". But I initiate - that is just how it works. I don't wonder why she does not initiate - I don't really care. Pretty sure she likes it as much as me.

 

And it is not a sexual hug - not foreplay - just connection.

 

So when you talk about affection - is it something else?

 

Hi Mem, thanks for your reply. I am referring to non-sexual affection; I also like a lot of affection, and I used to resent the fact that my wife was not that affectionate with me as I was with her. I have pretty much conquered that needy tendency, and now I find that my wife is more affectionate, no doubt because she senses that I am not needy anymore!

 

Somewhat related - I have read a little about this Alpha / Beta male theory. I think I probably started out more Alpha than Beta, but I gradually changed to more Alpha once I got married, as I adjusted to marriage and parenting, and became almost obsessed with pleasing my wife.

 

Now, through this journey of self-discovery, I have confidence, am more assertive, and more relaxed than I have been in many years, and I now know that this type of behavior is more attractive, hence my wife's affection toward me has increased. I no longer need / expect it, so it comes!

 

My transition is still underway, so tips are welcome!

Edited January 16, 2010 by highfive

[Ronni_W]

Alpha male, beta male, omega male.

Don't get hung up on ANY theory, is my suggestion.

 

Your unique answers to your personal relationship with your individual wife based on your one-of-a-kind histories and exclusive mutual history is NOT in any book or statistic or theory. It can only be found there, between the two of you.

 

As comforting as it may be to help one not feel like a "freak", don't over-invest in research, stats and theories. Read it, yes, but then make what you've read personal, and discard all the other crap that does not apply to you and your wife, uniquely, individually and as a unique, individual couple. IMO.

[mem11363]

The obsessed with pleasing wife is pure beta - this truly turns almost any woman off over time. It is also called "nice guy syndrome" and lots of other things. Bottom line is that women are keenly able to distinguish between a genuinely kind/loving act and a submissive act. The first thing a woman does to a submissive male is revoke his mating privileges. This is deeply hardwired behavior. And yes - like in everything you can find exceptions to this - but IME they are fairly rare. I reposted something by a guy named Atholk who has this down about as well as anyone I have ever encountered.

 

As you have noticed the irony is that the less you actually need - the more you actually get.

 

Hi Mem, thanks for your reply. I am referring to non-sexual affection; I also like a lot of affection, and I used to resent the fact that my wife was not that affectionate with me as I was with her. I have pretty much conquered that needy tendency, and now I find that my wife is more affectionate, no doubt because she senses that I am not needy anymore!

 

Somewhat related - I have read a little about this Alpha / Beta male theory. I think I probably started out more Alpha than Beta, but I gradually changed to more Alpha once I got married, as I adjusted to marriage and parenting, and became almost obsessed with pleasing my wife.

 

Now, through this journey of self-discovery, I have confidence, am more assertive, and more relaxed than I have been in many years, and I now know that this type of behavior is more attractive, hence my wife's affection toward me has increased. I no longer need / expect it, so it comes!

 

My transition is still underway, so tips are welcome!

[highfive]

The obsessed with pleasing wife is pure beta - this truly turns almost any woman off over time. It is also called "nice guy syndrome" and lots of other things. Bottom line is that women are keenly able to distinguish between a genuinely kind/loving act and a submissive act. The first thing a woman does to a submissive male is revoke his mating privileges. This is deeply hardwired behavior. And yes - like in everything you can find exceptions to this - but IME they are fairly rare. I reposted something by a guy named Atholk who has this down about as well as anyone I have ever encountered.

 

As you have noticed the irony is that the less you actually need - the more you actually get.

 

Hi Mem.

 

Yes, the need less / get more is an interesting dynamic, and provides further explanation how my past (insecure, needy, clingy) behavior, whether external acts/words or internal thoughts, had a negative impact on my wife's reaction and attraction to me.

 

I now understand that merely feeling insecure was noticed by her, even if I didn't say anything, just like my new found confidence is noticed. This is all stuff I can now recall from when I was a young adult, but it was slowly forgotten during my marriage, probably the result of trying to make amends for some of my early behavior when adjusting to my new life as a father. Just like many new dads, at first I had no clue what to do, and made some stupid assumptions regarding responsibility. I quickly adjusted but became too far the other way, if you know what I mean.

Edited January 17, 2010 by highfive

[highfive]

It has been about a month since I last posted.

 

I followed Ronni's suggestion, and I have indeed noted many signs that my wife does love me. As noted before, her love language is quite different from mine, so turning on the Universal Translator opened my senses to her language.

 

The signs of love are there. I sense them more now, and I know that she loves me.

 

I fluently speak all of the love languages. She speaks most of them, except the one I desire most, physical affection and contact, and that is the only issue, I want more! She knows this, and lately we have even discussed it, and she has said that her libido is low and that she feels bad, for me, about it.

 

So, aside from her low libido, I have an excellent marriage. Common theme her at LS!

 

Even though I write about this issue often, I have learned to accept it for what it is and I no longer pressure her.

 

Ok, enough about me: My main concern now is that she seems to have low self esteem. She is a sahm, works out at home, walks often but her weight is increasing slightly despite healthy eating and exercise, and this bothers her. She says she doesn't feel attractive, she is often tired and just seems down. I want to help, and make suggestions about part-time work and/or classes to get her out of the house, but she doesn't act. Perhaps I should just go ahead and book some classes for her....

Edited February 20, 2010 by highfive

[Ronni_W]

Perhaps I should just go ahead and book some classes for her....

Please do give it as "a gift I think-hope you'll enjoy." You know what she likes and prefers, so use your knowledge and make your gift personal. Try to find short-duration classes - 4 to 6 weeks - so, if she does not enjoy it, she's not stuck there for 10 or 12 weeks.

 

Remember, too, to cultivate a set of mutual hobbies and interests. That is an important part of fostering-maintaining an intimate connection with her, too. [so] Consider learning something together. Photography, horse back riding, (indoor?) rock climbing. Ballroom/Latin dancing classes. Or maybe Latin/ballroom dancing classes

 

MarriageBuilders.com has a begeez long list of "Recreational Enjoyment Inventory" that is sure to inspire you (under 'questionnaires' tab.)

[highfive]

Hi Ronni,

 

Just a quick update: About a month ago, after a routine medical check-up, we had a bit of a scare and for a few weeks it looked as if I had a serious disease. During this time my wife was very concerned, supportive and loving, which was great because it helped me to maintain a positive attitude.

 

After a few weeks of additional testing the serious disease was ruled out. I was away on business when my wife got the good news first and she called me to fill me in and we were both very happy, wishing we could share the good news together.

 

The whole experience was quite unsettling for both of us. I have to admit, however, that part of me (Schoolboy) enjoyed the additional attention, which in some respects took me back to years ago when we were first married when she was far more affectionate. I have to admit that it made me feel really good, and helped with the worry.

 

Since the good news, my wife has slowly settled back to normal. Still loving, in her own way, but to me she feels somewhat distant, only because Schoolboy had a taste of the way it used to be.

 

So, what to take away from this? The whole experience made me think about immortality, and what is important in life, and a desire to just enjoy each moment without worrying about the past or the future. I also saw additional signs that my wife does indeed love me. I should not even need this reassurance, but I have to admit that I liked it. Now we can move on, and focus on the previous issue of her low self-esteem from being a stay-at-home-mom. Enough about me, time to focus on her.

 

As always, I'm sure that you, and others, can help me gain the right perspective

[spriggig]

it might generate a thought like, "What are you...an idiot? Have you not NOTICED that you've been wrapped up in your work and ignoring your marriage???"

 

 

GRRRRRR! Why is this a "thought" instead of a statement? Why would anyone think this but not SAY it?

 

It's like a forth-grader saying "Well, if you don't know then why should I tell you, neener neener!". If you actually need an answer to this question: Because it just might save your fcking marriage!

 

Sorry. I'm not bitter.

[Ronni_W]

Hey ^5.

I am so glad that your health is okay! It must have been a very challenging thing to go through.

 

a desire to just enjoy each moment without worrying about the past or the future.

 

What is preventing you from fulfilling that desire of yours? What is blocking your decision and commitment to just enjoy each moment of your life without indulging (or is it wallowing?) in the past or worrying about the future? (I get that one ought to plan for the future...but being anxious about it does not have to be part of the package.)

 

The deal is: Whatever you're telling yourself you "need" before you can stop wallowing and worrying is just self-sabotaging bull****. It's how we keep ourselves stuck, unhappy and unfulfilled; and how we hang on to our resentments and petty grievances.

 

part of me enjoyed the additional attention,

 

You know what? It's perfectly fine that you're extremely high maintenance -- or, you would be that...if she gave you a millionth chance to be it.

And it's great that you realize that you are not 3 years old anymore, and you can survive, thrive, be happy, and feel loved and cherished with exactly the amount of attention and affection that your wife is capable of giving you.

 

It's a lack of gratitude for what you do have and what you are receiving, ^5. From your wife, and also from Love-and-Life itself. You're in a mode of wanting, wanting, wanting, more, more, more.

And it's an unwillingness to fully accept your reality. You're in mode of resisting what is.

 

You have a wife who does not have whatever level of resources your extremely high craving for attention and affection might require. Accept it already, or get a divorce. But before you do that. We don't actually know if a person even exists, who might have the mental, emotional and physical capacity and stamina that would actually satisfy your needs in this area.

 

You're sensing your wife as "distant" -- but what if that's only through the filter of your own high cravings? What if your own "stuff" is distorting how you're seeing and experiencing your wife? Not that you need to do anything about your cravings...but maybe you do need to change how you're perceiving her?

 

Why not start self-talking about your own extreme high maintenance, and your own exaggerated, black-hole need for affection and attention? Why not start thinking in terms of your needs being equal to or greater than a 3-year old's? Instead of judging her, how about giving yourself a taste of your own medicine?

 

Not that there is anything "wrong" with this aspect of you...but there is nothing "wrong" with that aspect of her, either. Your beliefs and self-talk are all about making her the one who is lacking and deficient. Change your beliefs and self-talk to a point where your view of your wife is one of upliftment, admiration and gratitude...and ONLY those things. No judgment and "I wish she could be better-different."

 

Think about it. If she wanted you to more closely match her capacities, she'll also be judging you and wishing you could be better-different. That sucks, what you're doing to her and have been doing for years! Stop doing it; change your beliefs about her.

 

It's also not that she "settled back to normal" as much as she "revved up" for the crisis -- it's a different way of looking at it. The way you're stating it comes across as your disappointment in your wife's "normal"!

 

How would it feel if you found out that she is secretly harbouring feeling-thoughts of "Dang! Since the good news, Highfive has settled back to his unfulfilling/boring 'normal' again." (Which, by the way, you probably have to the outside world.)

 

Have you discussed with her your thoughts about your mortality, and your desire to just enjoy each moment without worry? How can you inspire and support each other, to do that individually and as a couple?

 

and focus on the previous issue of her low self-esteem

 

Well...if SHE has identified that as an issue for herself, and when SHE is ready to focus on it. But you knew that, yes?

 

And of course. Her high self-esteem is not your ticket to having your high maintenance needs met. But you knew that, too. Yes?

 

I don't know that I can help you gain any better perspective -- but you are 100% right that you do need one!!!

 

(Holy crap and sorry -- LONG post. That's what happens after I've been on vacation for so long, I guess.)

 

In any event...stay healthy, wouldja please?

Ronni

[highfive]

Hey ^5.

I am so glad that your health is okay! It must have been a very challenging thing to go through.

 

a desire to just enjoy each moment without worrying about the past or the future.

 

What is preventing you from fulfilling that desire of yours? What is blocking your decision and commitment to just enjoy each moment of your life without indulging (or is it wallowing?) in the past or worrying about the future? (I get that one ought to plan for the future...but being anxious about it does not have to be part of the package.)

 

The deal is: Whatever you're telling yourself you "need" before you can stop wallowing and worrying is just self-sabotaging bull****. It's how we keep ourselves stuck, unhappy and unfulfilled; and how we hang on to our resentments and petty grievances.

 

part of me enjoyed the additional attention,

 

You know what? It's perfectly fine that you're extremely high maintenance -- or, you would be that...if she gave you a millionth chance to be it.

And it's great that you realize that you are not 3 years old anymore, and you can survive, thrive, be happy, and feel loved and cherished with exactly the amount of attention and affection that your wife is capable of giving you.

 

It's a lack of gratitude for what you do have and what you are receiving, ^5. From your wife, and also from Love-and-Life itself. You're in a mode of wanting, wanting, wanting, more, more, more.

And it's an unwillingness to fully accept your reality. You're in mode of resisting what is.

 

You have a wife who does not have whatever level of resources your extremely high craving for attention and affection might require. Accept it already, or get a divorce. But before you do that. We don't actually know if a person even exists, who might have the mental, emotional and physical capacity and stamina that would actually satisfy your needs in this area.

 

You're sensing your wife as "distant" -- but what if that's only through the filter of your own high cravings? What if your own "stuff" is distorting how you're seeing and experiencing your wife? Not that you need to do anything about your cravings...but maybe you do need to change how you're perceiving her?

 

Why not start self-talking about your own extreme high maintenance, and your own exaggerated, black-hole need for affection and attention? Why not start thinking in terms of your needs being equal to or greater than a 3-year old's? Instead of judging her, how about giving yourself a taste of your own medicine?

 

Not that there is anything "wrong" with this aspect of you...but there is nothing "wrong" with that aspect of her, either. Your beliefs and self-talk are all about making her the one who is lacking and deficient. Change your beliefs and self-talk to a point where your view of your wife is one of upliftment, admiration and gratitude...and ONLY those things. No judgment and "I wish she could be better-different."

 

Think about it. If she wanted you to more closely match her capacities, she'll also be judging you and wishing you could be better-different. That sucks, what you're doing to her and have been doing for years! Stop doing it; change your beliefs about her.

 

It's also not that she "settled back to normal" as much as she "revved up" for the crisis -- it's a different way of looking at it. The way you're stating it comes across as your disappointment in your wife's "normal"!

 

How would it feel if you found out that she is secretly harbouring feeling-thoughts of "Dang! Since the good news, Highfive has settled back to his unfulfilling/boring 'normal' again." (Which, by the way, you probably have to the outside world.)

 

Have you discussed with her your thoughts about your mortality, and your desire to just enjoy each moment without worry? How can you inspire and support each other, to do that individually and as a couple?

 

and focus on the previous issue of her low self-esteem

 

Well...if SHE has identified that as an issue for herself, and when SHE is ready to focus on it. But you knew that, yes?

 

And of course. Her high self-esteem is not your ticket to having your high maintenance needs met. But you knew that, too. Yes?

 

I don't know that I can help you gain any better perspective -- but you are 100% right that you do need one!!!

 

(Holy crap and sorry -- LONG post. That's what happens after I've been on vacation for so long, I guess.)

 

In any event...stay healthy, wouldja please?

Ronni

 

Hi Ronni,

 

Whoa! Long post eh?

 

As always, thanks for the words of wisdom. I wrote that post a few weeks ago during a moment of weakness. What is it about Love Shack? Seems I only post when I am feeling down, never when I am feeling good.

 

Anyway, after my brief moment of weakness, I snapped out of my self-pity, self-serving mode, and all is ok now.

 

I know my wife can probably detect when I am feeling needy, but I have learned to hide it really well, and I don't usually talk about it, or ask her for excessive reassurance.

 

A year ago I would say I had bouts of low self-esteem about every two weeks or so. Now it is more like every two months or so. In general, I have learned to focus on helping others, and not take myself too seriously. I'm not all the way where I would like to be, but it is definitely getting better, and when I get down it is not nearly as low as I used to get.

 

My wife's low self-esteem is improving. She is getting out more, and feeling better, and Spring sun helps a lot!

 

Take care, I'll update again soon.