Giving atheism a bad name?

[Eve]

Thanks for the quote advice.

 

but it dawned on me much later on that it shouldn't matter how it's done as long as the intention behind it is genuine. Otherwise we reduce it to the level of reciting incantations or correctly performing rituals, which struck me as rather hackneyed. And since I could vouch for the sincerity of my own intentions (though others of course are more sceptical!), this began my path away from religion to something more real and more meaningful to me.

 

I like your honesty.

 

I cant say that you have done this 'wrong' or that 'wrong' in order to have not experienced a more 'classical' spiritual experience. Maybe your experience is the same for many others? However, I do believe that words are a powerful medium and language does go a long way within shaping our behaviours. I can only use myself as an example, so would say that although I agree that there are dangers within religion being reduced down to incantations etc (I believe Jesus reacted against such things when He kicked off in the Temple and turned over tables etc) I am unsure if maybe this is just one level of belief which deepens as a person becomes less focused on what they want and focus more on for example... asking God if there is anything particular they could do? For me this seems to be that I can hear people a lot better now than what I could before and I can see how important small connections are within a much larger picture. So, I have concluded that faith begins as a belief with different levels of attainment - rather like Buddisms emphasis on the wheel of life.

 

For example, I have met people who I really admire and they are not Christians. They have an essence of being very open and in turn I think that they have gathered many different perspectives and learned a special way of 'just being'. BUT I do believe that incantations and prayers are important representations of ancient archetypes which do govern human insight and also govern the spiritual domain.

 

I suppose above all I am learning to identify what is psychologial and what is spiritual within my behaviour and the behaviour of others. I think that as humans we confuse and mesh the two quite nastily sometimes and I think that it is important to (whereever possible) not react against the person but instead evaluate the relevancy to what is good ( good meaning what is nurturing, edifying, sincere) In terms of confusing the psychological with what is spiritual I have found that a balance must be sought between recognising ones good points and credentials and also being aware of the other side of our nature which can be quite dark. I am wary of 'religion' which tries to make the darker side 'go away' in one way or another - although I do believe that sometimes the darker side of our behaviours need to be distinguished in one way or another by spiritual means such as prayer (I hope that this does not seem too hypocritical) Essentially, I believe that we need to recognise the darker elements within our personalities otherwise they usually turn up in the shape of an abusive partner or an inability to deal with abusive people. BUT I do believe that evil is also a person created from a particular form of intent and because of the presence of higher beings, all levels of spiritual awareness have been born.

 

So I believe in beings beyond the creation of the planet. I enjoy the Earth and respect it but I seek out ancient truths regarding how to live upon the Earth because I have consistently found the ancient ways to be more accurate at detailing how we understand ourselves, each other and live with knowledge of the spiritual realm.

 

So, in total, people fascinate me! How we have gotten this far totally surprises me! And I choose to remain open and wait for God... Thankfully He turns up for me but I am intrigued when people tell me that He doesnt turn up for them.

[disgracian]

I think it's more a cry for attention than any real hatred.

 

Cheers,

D.

[Dark-N-Romantic]

Taramere...

 

I have fornicated.

I have stolen.

I have deceived.

I have acted out of less nobler emotions.

I have cursed others.

I have let wild, sinful thoughts come into my mind.

I have been lazy.

I have been greedy.

I have been lustful.

I have been prideful.

I have done a lot of things that I should not have done.

And a few I once in a while have to fight away the guilt on.

For I am human.

 

And while these things have happened in my past, some still happen in the present and will happen in the future.

 

Why?

 

For I am still a fallible, mortal, being born of sinful flesh. I am not free from it, but what I do do is strive to overcome it. This is the only demand that my God desires. And when I fail, His son who died from me, is there for me to confess and lay my sins upon when I fall. Think of it like a bike. One is riding along just fine, something happens and they fall of. Should they be left on the ground or not be placed back on the bike because of their error or an accident? Or should the be lifted back up and placed back upon that bike so they can carry on their ride? This is what Christianity is like. When one sins, God does not just wash His hands of us. No. He forgives and forgets and we continue on back on the track we were on.

 

Being a Christian DOES NOT!!! Gives us the right to freely sin. If anything, a Christian who does so suffers worst than he or she who are Godless. Usually it is not on a material level in which we suffer, but a spiritual one. Their suffering is on the inside where they have to struggle with the results of their sin. I am no different, but you know what? Ain't no way I am going to give up and throw in the towel because I fall. I confess to my God what my wrong is. Ask for forgiveness. And do everything I can do not fall.

 

Now for all those who THINK they know about Christianity and think we get a free ride... Point out what free rides do we get. Show me even in the Bible that God saids because of your affiliation you get a free ride. And then, read the ENTIRE Bible, and let me know what your answer is again. Oh never mind, you guys don't have the courage to do so. Everything you argue and think you have a point about, has always been talked about.

 

Christianity has never been given a free ride. Have those out of "religious" beliefs performed actions that are proven to be wrong or misunderstood? Certainly! Why? Because it is still man we are dealing with. How many people get over fights and kill each other over something as simple as disrespecting someone for stepping on their shoes or someone looking at them "the wrong way." Just because someone claims the are of a religion does not mean they are any less human or won't do things that others might deem nonreligious. But, of course I would not expect such closed minded people to understand this. Trying to get you to understand this is like yelling into hurricane winds... Pointless.

 

A debate and discussion can only happen when one is open to the ideas and opinions of another without feeling the need to berate or belittle those ideas. This is not a debate or a discussion. Its more like a finger point match than anything else.

 

If atheists are right. If there is no god... Why do you care if someone saids their is? Why do you get so upset and want to talk about everything that was done in the past instead of looking at what they are doing in the hear and now and the strives they are taking to try and improve? Of course you can't do that, then that means you would have to stop being so childish and pathetic in your attempts at trying to berate someone else.

 

Oh, and Barefoot... If you really love this world your in, you'd better not hope that the Christians leave, if we do, then you know that God is real and that everything that was written in the Bible is coming to a close. So, before you make such a wish... Really ready the Bible, especially Revelations my friend.

 

And for those who think they will or have a desire to hurt God... Here's a few things you should really get to understand...

1. God knows all, sees all, can do all. So, what makes you think you would be able to even do anything like insult or harm Him?

2. When God has to deal with meeting out punishment onto the wicked and sinners, there will be no materials there. Just spirits and angels.

3. Those who stand before the throne for judgment won't have anything else but tears and fear about them. No anger, no pride, no back talking, no making a final stand. This is your fate ol' haughty ones.

 

So, dream on dreamers. And enjoy your laughs while you can hear. For one day you will awake and it will be too late.

 

 

DNR

[disgracian]

Now that's some genuine anger right there.

 

Cheers,

D.

[disgracian]

I'd be more worried about Dark-N-Romantic if I were you. Barefoot will eventually grow out of it, but DNR seems to be flirting with that 'barely concealed satisfaction at the prospect of people he doesn't like going to Hell forever' trip. That has far more disasterous consequences than bf's comical and contrived rage.

 

Cheers,

D.

[Dark-N-Romantic]

Actually who and who does not go to Hell is no concern of mine. That is not in my realm of control. I do have some satisfaction that people who are going around intentionally hurting others just because they can or for obviously selfish motives are going to get what they deserve. I find satisfaction in knowing that where human/physical justice may not always be meted out, it is good to know that their is a spiritual justice that will. I find satisfaction that the evil and disgusting acts that rule this world will be done away with, along with those who willingly get involved in it.

 

So, will I grow out of the joy that the putting away of the wicked and the passing away of the things of this world and seeking to be ready for the next? I pray not and I take your comment as a compliment. And like Bent said... Rather or not my spirit makes it into Heaven or goes to Hell, that is on me. No one is responsible for my destination but me. Not my pastors, not my parents, not my enemies, not the Devil.

 

 

DNR

[Taramere]

Now that's some genuine anger right there.

 

Cheers,

D.

 

I agree. One thing about religion - and I can't quite make up my mind whether this is a good or a bad thing - is that through the practice of it, people show their characters more rapidly.

 

If a person is basically peaceful, non judgemental and well balanced, then they're probably going to practice their religion in a way that enhances those aspects of their personality and probably bring a sense of peace and well-being to others they come into contact with.

 

It seems, though, that it's not too hard for an angry and vengeful person to justify their anger (and keep it inflamed) with reference to religious teachings. Fortunately where I live, there isn't much fundamentalism any more (only in slightly more remote areas where there are still elements of the harsh, Wee Free Presbyterian doctrine). I associate fundamentalism with anger, aggression and the desire to control.

 

DNR - you directed a lengthy post to me and I skimmed through it. I'm not perfect either, and I do sometimes argue with people....but essentially my temperament is that of a peaceful and (despite problems I've had) basically quite happy person. I don't bear grudges, and I don't find myself wishing ill on people. As far as I'm concerned, we're all just part of life on this planet...to that extent we're all interconnected and its viciously nonsensical to wish grievous ill, pain and torture on other forms of life that you have that connection to. Seeing the egotistical have a dent to their pride - that's funny. But real, genuine pain and hell. I can't understand how anyone would wish that on another, yet still look in the mirror and see a "good" person.

 

I keep getting a sense, from some of the more aggressive religious posters, that they do wish harm on others who don't share their beliefs. I don't have anything to learn about being a kinder, more peaceful, more spiritual person from anyone who goes around with that hostile, vengeful mindset. Nothing will convince me that I do - ever. If that sounds presumptious, I don't care. The more I read from you, the less I feel inclined to see religion as a good thing.

[Dark-N-Romantic]

Most people both religious and nonreligious people who feel wronged and grievously hurt do wish similar pain or worse on those who hurt them (be it directed harm or something that challenges their views on life). We all have done it and still do on some levels if the hurt is powerful enough. It is because the inner person desires justice. It desires that pain be met with pain in order for a wrong to be righted (like wishing for a pedophile to have his castrated so he can never touch another child again).

 

We all have a thought about what "good" people are and we feel for those "good" people when what we see as unfair or unjust happen to them (like how a newly wed couple were killed by two women during a burglary). We might deemed them as "good" people, because of their looks, because we have not heard anything bad about them, or what have you. We feel for them because their lives were ended over material things. It was unfair and unjust because they were so young, beautiful, happy, successful, or whatever ideals we hold to what makes a person a "good" person. So we get angry and want the perpetrators to be punished/suffer to the fullest extent of the law. And if it death, we don't want to think they can have a happy ending if their is a Heaven or Hell. We want them to forever be tormented for the pain they have caused others, and indirectly, ourselves.

 

Christians are no different. We are not better than non-Christians. We are not above our humanity because we seek forgiveness and believe in our striving to be more like creatures of the spirit vice the flesh. We are just as fragile in many was as we ever were as our natural sinful natures. We don't all of a sudden become some supernatural being who is flawless, do some think and behave like they are? Of course! We are stall talking human beings here. God does not control us like some distant puppet master, but rather He opens our eyes and hearts in order for us to make well informed decisions with our lives, and to allow us to make even wiser, more concerned decisions that affects not just the material world, but the spiritual world at the same time. So, yeah, sadly there are Christians who desire nothing but Hell for others, and those people may find themselves in the very Hell they wish on others for their wrong doings, not thinking about the wrongful actions they are doing.

 

This is why religion is a path or way, vice a mere lifestyle. It is something that one must continually travel, make course adjustments, and must be looked at as one moves forward with life. It is something one continues to grow and mature in and goes through metamorphosis when they reach a new enlightenment. It is a training, and just like there are times one screws up, so does followers of the faith at times.

 

And no you are not being presumptuous Taramere. You hit it right on the head, there are some people on the road of peace who wish nothing but harm, those are the snakes and liars that was talked about in the Bible. These people, despite what they claim to be, are NOT who they say/believe they are because their very on texts condemns their actions. And they will be held accountable for those in the Judgment should they not be forgiven of their sin(s). But, just remember it is not limited to just one who follows a faith, but mankind in general.

 

 

DNR

[FleshNBones]

DNR - you directed a lengthy post to me and I skimmed through it. I'm not perfect either, and I do sometimes argue with people....but essentially my temperament is that of a peaceful and (despite problems I've had) basically quite happy person. I don't bear grudges, and I don't find myself wishing ill on people. As far as I'm concerned, we're all just part of life on this planet...to that extent we're all interconnected and its viciously nonsensical to wish grievous ill, pain and torture on other forms of life that you have that connection to. Seeing the egotistical have a dent to their pride - that's funny. But real, genuine pain and hell. I can't understand how anyone would wish that on another, yet still look in the mirror and see a "good" person.

If Christians wished ill and eternal suffering onto you, they would suggest continuing on your path to self-fulfilment. You would probably enjoy a lifetime of happiness.

Suggesting that Christians are cruel for believing in the existence of Hell is completely illogical not to mention off topic. People wishing to harm and inflict pain onto God are cruel.

It is a training, and just like there are times one screws up, so does followers of the faith at times.

I think it is deeper than that. A circumcision of the spirit is a fundamental change in character. It is done to bring us closer to God, and to please him.

And no you are not being presumptuous Taramere. You hit it right on the head, there are some people on the road of peace who wish nothing but harm, those are the snakes and liars that was talked about in the Bible.

Wolves in sheep's clothing. They like to take many forms, and they aren't limited to calling themselves Christians.

[Taramere]

And no you are not being presumptuous Taramere. You hit it right on the head, there are some people on the road of peace who wish nothing but harm, those are the snakes and liars that was talked about in the Bible. These people, despite what they claim to be, are NOT who they say/believe they are because their very on texts condemns their actions. And they will be held accountable for those in the Judgment should they not be forgiven of their sin(s). But, just remember it is not limited to just one who follows a faith, but mankind in general.

 

 

DNR

 

Right. Thanks for your response, DNR.

 

You see for me, I get that kind of guidance from psychology. I see the ultimate aim of psychoanalytic theory as being to help people be as emotionally/mentally healthy as possible. The difference is that with psychology the end result or the "reward" isn't a notion of a heavenly life after death. It's about being happier and more at peace here and now.

 

You talked about the two women who killed a newly wed couple so that they could steal from them. I don't know what led them down the path where they'd do that. I could speculate that it would be an addiction of some kind that kicked it off. What gets people into addictive behaviour? Often it's to do with an emotional need or needs not being met. The addiction compensates for that. It becomes the person's private "thing"/vice/hiding place that they can retreat into. Their best friend, and their worst enemy.

 

This isn't intended to be insulting to anyone who's discovered religion in adulthood, but my experience of strongly religious people has often been that they previously had an addiction. I can relate to that. Just about anything can become a life-destroying addiction if you become obsessed enough about it that other aspects of your life begin to suffer.

 

I can wholly understand why, in that situation, people would turn to religion. It may well be a source of comfort. It's often a crutch, but people who are trying to leave behind a destructive pattern of behaviour do require something to lean on during the process of change. I think there's a limit to what religion offers people, however, in terms of understanding themselves and why they make certain mistakes/get into destructive patterns of behaviour. I don't think it necessarily encourages people to think beyond "the Devil tempted me" or "I was weak. I sinned. God gives me strength..."

 

That wouldn't work for me personally. I have to have tools that help me to understand myself, other people and life in general to a greater level than the bible permits. If I were Eve, I'd also be saying "here Adam, take a bite of this apple. Apparently it opens your eyes and makes you see life as it is." And isn't that exactly what it did? They were kicked out of paradise, and according to the Old Testament, we've been getting punished for it ever since, but is there anyone here who wouldn't want to experience life as it is, with all of their senses?

 

So along comes Christianity, which takes a somewhat more forgiving approach. Portrays a rather gentler God than the Old Testament did. A more.....humane one, who urges us to be less judgemental and to open our minds up to the lessons of life.

 

To me, there are three ways of looking at that. If you're atheistic, you might say "man and societies change as a result of developments in philosophy and science. Christians developed a new way kind of God to worship in response to the ways in which people and society were changing...largely because of some of the teachings of great philosophers.

 

Christians might say "it's the same God...it's just that our understanding of him has developed."

 

An agnostic might say "if there is a God, who's to say he started out as a perfect being? Who's to say he's anything close to perfection now? Initially he set out this list of rules....one of the most important being "don't question me. Don't insult me. Don't suggest I'm anything less than perfect."

 

Creators learn from their own creations. Why would God, if there is one, be any different? I think if religion is to survive in a sophisticated, educated society, it must acknowledge and respect the lessons of science and the wisdom of knowledge beyond the theological. In any other form, it's always going to be credible to only a passionate minority of people.

[disgracian]

If that is true about DNR, then the only disaster will be to DNR.

You don't think that sort of attitude has any collateral damage?

 

Cheers,

D.

[disgracian]

Actually who and who does not go to Hell is no concern of mine.

Other than the disturbing fact that you derive satisfaction from sadistic torture. I can see that perhaps it does cause some conflict because you cloak the rest of your post by talking only about people who run around hurting others and performing evil and disgusting acts, as though they are the only people who wind up in hell according to your religion.

 

But they aren't. The most common way out it seems for believers is to try (some more successfully than others) to equate such wickedness and evilness with simply not being Christian. And that's what bothers me, because I think it's a nasty and dangerous attitude.

 

Cheers,

D.

[disgracian]

We all have a thought about what "good" people are and we feel for those "good" people when what we see as unfair or unjust happen to them (like how a newly wed couple were killed by two women during a burglary). We might deemed them as "good" people, because of their looks, because we have not heard anything bad about them, or what have you. We feel for them because their lives were ended over material things. It was unfair and unjust because they were so young, beautiful, happy, successful, or whatever ideals we hold to what makes a person a "good" person. So we get angry and want the perpetrators to be punished/suffer to the fullest extent of the law. And if it death, we don't want to think they can have a happy ending if their is a Heaven or Hell. We want them to forever be tormented for the pain they have caused others, and indirectly, ourselves.

I really wish you wouldn't try to speak on behalf of everybody just because that's the way you feel. It's most certainly not the way I feel at all.

So, yeah, sadly there are Christians who desire nothing but Hell for others, and those people may find themselves in the very Hell they wish on others for their wrong doings, not thinking about the wrongful actions they are doing.

Hang on. Didn't you just a moment ago talk about your own satisfaction at the idea of people meeting this kind of fate?

 

Cheers,

D.

[GPFan]

You honestly think that I really care to be a part of heaven if the God of the bible is running it?

I understand your disgust with the old testament deity. He is a frightening, and frankly, evil fellow I wouldn't want to meet in a dark alley.

 

Christians however believe he redeemed himself (and Humans) in offering his son to humanity. By doing so, he has now proven himself to be a deity of love.

 

Bottom line is that these are ideas passed down in the oral tradition and eventually penned by Human Beings. Human Beings in whatever stage of evolution they were 2,000- to 5,000-years ago. Human Beings who inevitably portrayed their deity in their own image as that is the best they could do at the time.

 

It seems your anger with modern-day Christians is more comfortably expressed as rage against this mythical, old testament deity.

 

I assume no belief in a deity precludes any belief in an afterlife, that said, why waste precious moments of an already too short life raging at anyone?

 

It may be a better course-of-action to find healing and move on happily with your life.

[disgracian]

Christians however believe he redeemed himself (and Humans) in offering his son to humanity. By doing so, he has now proven himself to be a deity of love.

No Christian I know thinks god has to redeem himself for anything, or is anything less that utterly perfect and holy all the time, even when he's ordering genocide upon a people whose only crime was to have the audacity to occupy land that a nomadic pack of Israelites decided they wanted. That is entirely consistent with being all loving and merciful, and not having any favourites among his creation.

 

Cheers,

D.

[disgracian]

Well, I'll just continue to preach that nobody who has even a trace of genuine compassion should feel anything other than nauseous at the prospect of anyone suffering for eternity. Finite crimes do not warrant infinite punishment. The whole idea is just sick, and anyone who says otherwise is suspect.

 

Cheers,

D.

[grogster]

Well, I'll just continue to preach that nobody who has even a trace of genuine compassion should feel anything other than nauseous at the prospect of anyone suffering for eternity. Finite crimes do not warrant infinite punishment. The whole idea is just sick, and anyone who says otherwise is suspect.

 

Cheers,

D.

 

 

D, why do you even try? It's hopeless, my man. Hopeless.

[FleshNBones]

Well, I'll just continue to preach that nobody who has even a trace of genuine compassion should feel anything other than nauseous at the prospect of anyone suffering for eternity. Finite crimes do not warrant infinite punishment. The whole idea is just sick, and anyone who says otherwise is suspect.

 

Cheers,

D.

Trying to attack God would warrent suffering for eternity.

[Moose]

Well, I'll just continue to preach that nobody who has even a trace of genuine compassion should feel anything other than nauseous at the prospect of anyone suffering for eternity.

Who says it doesn't? Certainly not me, nor shouldn't it be for any other Brother or Sister in Christ. We don't wish that anyone suffers eternally, and this is precisely why we do our best to let others know about God's Grace.

 

What we DO take comfort in, is that God's Justice is JUST.

 

Yes, that means there will be those who will suffer eternally, however, how great would God's Kingdom be without an alternative? And how great is a reward if there's no effort involved?

Finite crimes do not warrant infinite punishment.

I agree.....a theif would lose their hand in some cultures, but that's not to say it'll carry on eternally. However, what you do on these public forums isn't of the "finite" nature. You're messing with infinite consequences whether you chose to believe it or not. All our job is, (as Christians) is to simple warn you....which we've done consistantly.

The whole idea is just sick, and anyone who says otherwise is suspect.

Ever hear of the saying, "It is what it is"? Well....it is. It's terrible, sick and seemingly unloving. This is by DESIGN. Designed to make us consider the only alternative.

[Enema]

Ever hear of the saying, "It is what it is"? Well....it is. It's terrible, sick and seemingly unloving. This is by DESIGN. Designed to make us consider the only alternative.

 

A religion based on fear and pain only appeals to a special kind of person.

[FleshNBones]

A religion based on fear and pain only appeals to a special kind of person.

Fear has obviously worked for you.

 

It might come as a shock, but there are people who seriously believe in it. Maybe they want more than just a life's experience.

 

Do you pledge allegance out of fear?

[disgracian]

D, why do you even try? It's hopeless, my man. Hopeless.

I'm an optimist. Though I certainly hold no hope for those who have thrown their lot in with insanity and entrenched their position where merest thought of considering a new idea wouldn't even speculate about the merest possibility of crossing their minds. I just simply try to counter their rubbish for the sake of the impressionable.

 

Cheers,

D.

[Moose]

I just simply try to counter their rubbish for the sake of the impressionable.

You've just made it clear that you and I have the same goal.....

[Moose]

A religion based on fear and pain only appeals to a special kind of person.

Nah...it's the exact opposite of fear and pain in fact....and that, (should) appeals to everyone.

[FleshNBones]

I'm an optimist. Though I certainly hold no hope for those who have thrown their lot in with insanity and entrenched their position where merest thought of considering a new idea wouldn't even speculate about the merest possibility of crossing their minds. I just simply try to counter their rubbish for the sake of the impressionable.

My mind is made up just like yours.

The real issue seems to be about respect.