Giving atheism a bad name?

[lovestruck818]

You aren't, "born" into any religion. You are a unique individual, with your own mind, heart and soul. Your life's experience and knowledge ultimately dictates which, "religion" you feel led to follow....

 

you are born into what your parents are...and if you choose to change religions, you then can.

[Enema]

There are a couple types of atheists.... Atheists, or Militant Atheists

 

Or sometimes, Weak / Strong Atheists.

 

Atheist - Doesn't believe god exists

Militant Atheist - Doesn't believe god exists and actively campaigns against theism

 

No prizes for guessing which barefoot is.

[lovestruck818]

There are a couple types of atheists.... Atheists, or Militant Atheists

 

Or sometimes, Weak / Strong Atheists.

 

Atheist - Doesn't believe god exists

Militant Atheist - Doesn't believe god exists and actively campaigns against theism

 

No prizes for guessing which barefoot is.

 

I'm just an athiest- but...what is the difference between agnostic & athiest?

[Dark-N-Romantic]

I'm just an athiest- but...what is the difference between agnostic & athiest?

 

According to Merriam-Webster Dictionary

 

An agnostic is...

1: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god

2: a person unwilling to commit to an opinion about something <political agnostics>

 

In short, those who think there could be but just aren't sure.

 

An atheist is...

1: one who believes that there is no deity

 

So, why the fuss from those who don't believe in a deity? Don't you think you are silly for doing so?

 

 

 

DNR

[Enema]

This is where labels get tricky. An agnostic is someone who doesn't know one way or the other.

 

Technically, most atheists identify as "agnostic-atheists" - They don't think god exists, but can't say that he definitely doesn't.

 

A "real" atheist will say - god definitely doesn't exist.

 

Since no one can know anything definitively, I identify as an "agnostic-atheist". But, I also realize that the likelihood of god existing is so small that I don't bother with the prefix and just call myself an "atheist".

 

Same logic applies to Santa. No one can say for sure if he exists or not, but the chance is so small that I just say I don't believe in him.

[disgracian]

An atheist is somebody who does not believe in god(s).

 

An agnostic is somebody who believes the existence or non-existence of god is inherently unknowable. But this doesn't prohibit belief or disbelief.

 

Agnosticism is not the middle ground in a sliding scale between atheism and theism, it's a subtly different thing.

 

I am an agnostic when it comes to generic "godlike" beings. There could be one or many out there. Who knows? Sometimes I think there might be. I am, however, not nearly so agnostic when it comes to the gods that are and have been worshipped by humanity. They are all demonstratably false and I have little or no time for them.

 

Cheers,

D.

[FleshNBones]

So, why the fuss from those who don't believe in a deity? Don't you think you are silly for doing so?

It could be that they really aren't athiests or agnostics.

[disgracian]

Why the fuss from those who do in trying to convert others? It could be that they are just trying to assuage their own doubts by convincing others to believe too.

 

Cheers,

D.

[Dark-N-Romantic]

Why the fuss from those who do in trying to convert others? It could be that they are just trying to assuage their own doubts by convincing others to believe too.

 

Cheers,

D.

 

Tsk. Tsk. Tsk. This is the reason why I am so happy people like you exist. You have all these bad images and misconceptions, probably from lack of TRUE understanding of the Bible. Instead you are so focused on what everyone else does except taking accountability for yourself.

 

For your edification... Christians are not and do not...

1. Have the power to convert. All we can do is give you information and show our faith. To convert is up to you. But, just because you won't accept does not mean we shut up and do nothing. A lot more people tend to convert AFTER they hear something vice through direct actions.

2. We are suppose to be on the corners, out in the streets, on the t.v., on the radio, talking in our schools, and workplaces. If we don't do it, we are not doing what God excepts of us if we did not proclaim God to the world. So you will just have to suck that up bud.

3. Again, I say for a third time... Every time you complain. Every time you mock. Every time you try to discount us, you prove God's words. So, you and this world is what gives credence to God's existence and His word. Now if there were no adversary that is seen, then God's word would be proven a lie. But, that is not going to happen because God has shown all of human nature and actions in his word. I thank you from the bottom of my heart for proving that God is real and that He is worthy to be praised and worshipped and the world told about Him.

 

 

DNR

The best way to make something go away is to ignore it.

[Dark-N-Romantic]

It could be that they really aren't athiests or agnostics.

 

I was going to write on that. But, you know, atheists and agnostics already know this, now rather or not they can accept this, that's up on them.

 

 

DNR

I can only lead the horse to the water, I can't make them drink.

[disgracian]

You have all these bad images and misconceptions, probably from lack of TRUE understanding of the Bible. Instead you are so focused on what everyone else does except taking accountability for yourself.

Hmm, perhaps you can give me an example of where I do not take accountability for myself. Because I don't palm off my sins and my guilt onto messianic figures, that leaves me with the only option of being solely accountable for everything I do. So I'd like to know that's not just an empty, meaningless accusation you've just made.

 

For your edification, maybe I should explain my point a little more clearly since you don't seem to have grasped it.

 

I get tired of hearing the line "if atheists/agnostics don't believe then why make a fuss?" as though they are not entitled to an opinion, or worse, that it must be because deep down they believe but are rebelling for some weak, petty reason. It's a pompous, arrogant double-standard.

 

But guess what? That knife cuts both ways. It leaves the door open for me to likewise indulge in amateur-hour armchair psychology and suggest that those that argue against and try to convert non-believers (evangelists, the apologetics crowd, etc.) share the same psychological crutch. Deep down they have doubts that they can't reconcile because their beliefs are so absurd, but if they can convince others to believe too then there is safety in numbers and they don't have to think about the possibility that they've been deceived. Easier than facing the painful truth. If we (the heathens) are capable of it, then so are you.

 

And the best thing is that you can't object to my aforesaid line of reasoning (even though it's fallicious) without objecting to your own, because it's the same. So you're left with nothing to do except concede that everybody has a valid entitlement to weigh in on the issue, or keep your beliefs to yourself and never bother anyone else with them ever again. Or you can continue to practice self-deception.

 

Either way, I win. You'll either leave me alone, or let me speak my mind without ineptly questioning my motives, or you will discredit yourself by trying to do neither.

The best way to make something go away is to ignore it.

The surest way for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing.

 

Cheers,

D.

[Taramere]

I was going to write on that. But, you know, atheists and agnostics already know this, now rather or not they can accept this, that's up on them.

 

 

DNR

I can only lead the horse to the water, I can't make them drink.

 

DNR - have you had sex outwith marriage? Have you ever held anger in your heart towards someone else to the extent that you wanted to take revenge against them - wait...yes, you have! I remember your sweet revenge thread. I think one of your suggestions for punishing someone who'd cheated involved selling naked pics of them to a porn site. You'd best ask Tony to delete that before God reads it. And get him to take out all that stuff about you being one of the chosen few while he's at it. Pride, wrath, lust. Oh dear, DNR. Oh dear. Sure it would just be easier for you to switch to being an agnostic?

[Taramere]

My point is that there seems to be a belief amongst some of those who believe that as long as they are churchgoing and preach the good word, all is forgiven. That's all the effort it requires. Not unlike members of the mafia who take out contracts on people's lives then say however many Hail Marys they think are required.

 

This is why I think it's....well, nonsense really. I can't see the point of subscribing very ostentatiously to a belief system unless you're going to adhere to it very closely. Practising rather than preaching.

 

Now I have absolutely nothing against the peaceful practice of Christianity amongst people who say "I like going to church, I find having a faith gives me a sense of peace. I like the people I meet at church, and although it's not practical for me to adhere to everything this faith would demand of me, I do try to follow many of the rules, and I find it gives me some strength and moral guidance.

 

That's very different from taking the view that one's faith gives one the right to tell others that they are lesser people/will not be amongst the chosen few etc etc. The same aggressively "holier than thou" stance that war-mongers using religion as an excuse to fight with people employ. When I see religion bringing that out in people, it makes me understand why others feel compelled to comment regularly on the hypocrisy of it all.

[grogster]

My point is that there seems to be a belief amongst some of those who believe that as long as they are churchgoing and preach the good word, all is forgiven. That's all the effort it requires. Not unlike members of the mafia who take out contracts on people's lives then say however many Hail Marys they think are required.

 

This is why I think it's....well, nonsense really. I can't see the point of subscribing very ostentatiously to a belief system unless you're going to adhere to it very closely. Practising rather than preaching.

 

Now I have absolutely nothing against the peaceful practice of Christianity amongst people who say "I like going to church, I find having a faith gives me a sense of peace. I like the people I meet at church, and although it's not practical for me to adhere to everything this faith would demand of me, I do try to follow many of the rules, and I find it gives me some strength and moral guidance.

 

That's very different from taking the view that one's faith gives one the right to tell others that they are lesser people/will not be amongst the chosen few etc etc. The same aggressively "holier than thou" stance that war-mongers using religion as an excuse to fight with people employ. When I see religion bringing that out in people, it makes me understand why others feel compelled to comment regularly on the hypocrisy of it all.

 

Good points, Tara. For many, personal religion is their very own "get out of jail free" card. Being an atheistic existentialist (although I detest Sartre's lame fellow traveling and self-promotion), I take seriously my freedom and my responsibility.

 

I have no deity protecting me, guiding me and justifying my actions. I don't expect, want or desire salvation. As P. Smith says, below: "Jesus died for somebody's sins but not mine."

 

I don't trust saviors.

[lovestruck818]

This is where labels get tricky. An agnostic is someone who doesn't know one way or the other.

 

Technically, most atheists identify as "agnostic-atheists" - They don't think god exists, but can't say that he definitely doesn't.

 

A "real" atheist will say - god definitely doesn't exist.

 

Since no one can know anything definitively, I identify as an "agnostic-atheist". But, I also realize that the likelihood of god existing is so small that I don't bother with the prefix and just call myself an "atheist".

 

Same logic applies to Santa. No one can say for sure if he exists or not, but the chance is so small that I just say I don't believe in him.

 

psssh- you can't compare santa to god. F god, lol, Santa gives me presents!!

[Taramere]

Good points, Tara. For many, personal religion is their very own "get out of jail free" card. Being an atheistic existentialist (although I detest Sartre's lame fellow traveling and self-promotion), I take seriously my freedom and my responsibility.

 

Thanks, g. Re Sartre - I've always had more time for the work of his girlfriend. There's a school of thought saying that he pilfered quite a bit from her work, and she just let him....but I think there was a lot of resentment there. Did you ever read "She came to Stay" by S de B?

 

It requires that we repent of our sins daily(because we sin daily)It requires that we look within ourselves a work to remove the things that will hinder our relationship with God. For me is it anger and sometimes unforgiveness.

 

I do something similar, but I use psychoanalytic theory instead of the bible...and I suppose the relationships I'm concerned with are between my id, ego and superego. It's not so very different from religion, but the focus is on having equilibrium and being as happy as you can be here on earth, rather than focusing on whatever (if anything) might happen afterwards..

 

Do I believe she won't go to heaven if she doesn't accept Christ as her Lord and savior, yes. Do I love her any less, no. She is a wonderful woman. Kind, sweet,loving generous and loyal. Every thing you could want in a good friend.

 

Then hopefully if all the afterlife stuff is true, she'll go to Limbo. It's supposed to be fairly comfortable, and where the non-religious philosophers end up. There'd be no shortage of conversation.

 

I do practice what I preach so to speak(90% of the time, I working on the other 10). I hope that I have given you a different perspective, but if I haven't, blessings.

 

I think you're presenting the more gentle Christian perspective, which I have nothing against at all. I've had people tell me (in very sincere tones) that they'll pray for me, and I think that's very nice of them. If it works, then great! It's just that the only gods I have are flesh and blood ones.

[grogster]

Sartre treated Simone shabbily. While they had an "open" relationship, he benefitted more than she. (Athough I do remember reading somewhere that she preferred younger men--but that's for another Thread). And of course, she nursed him when he was too old old and feeble to care for himself.

 

Sartre mastered the art of self-promotion as celebrity-philosopher. He overstated his Resistance contributions and turned a blind eye to Soviet imperialism and Stalinist injustice.

 

I've always preferred Camus and Murleau Pony. At the end of the day, these gentlemen were on the right side of History.

 

I'll check-out "She Came to Stay."

[Taramere]

Sartre treated Simone shabbily. While they had an "open" relationship, he benefitted more than she. (Athough I do remember reading somewhere that she preferred younger men--but that's for another Thread). And of course, she nursed him when he was too old old and feeble to care for himself.

 

Sartre mastered the art of self-promotion as celebrity-philosopher. He overstated his Resistance contributions and turned a blind eye to Soviet imperialism and Stalinist injustice.

 

I've always preferred Camus and Murleau Pony. At the end of the day, these gentlemen were on the right side of History.

 

I'll check-out "She Came to Stay."

 

I read it so long ago I have trouble remembering it properly, though I know I enjoyed it. Here's the synopsis. A Loveshack book if ever there was one!

 

Written as an act of revenge against the 17 year-old who came between her and Jean-Paul Sartre, She Came to Stay is Simone de Beauvoir's first novel -- a lacerating study of a young, naive couple in love and the usurping woman who comes between them. 'It is impossible to talk about faithfulness and unfaithfulness where we are concerned. You and I are simply one. Neither of us can be described without the other.' It was unthinkable that Pierre and Francoise should ever tire of each other. And yet, both talented and restless, they constantly feel the need for new sensations, new people. Because of this they bring the young, beautiful and irresponsible Xaviere into their life who, determined to take Pierre for herself, drives a wedge between them, with unforeseeable, disastrous consequences! Published in 1943, 'She Came to Stay' is Simone de Beauvoir's first novel. Written as an act of revenge against the woman who nearly destroyed her now legendary, unorthodox relationship with the philosopher Jean-Paul Sartre, it fictionalises the events of 1935, when Sartre became infatuated with seventeen-year old Olga Bost, a pupil and devotee of de Beauvoir's.

 

Passionately eloquent, coolly and devastatingly ironic, 'She Came to Stay' is one of the most extraordinary and powerful pieces of fictional autobiography of the twentieth century, in which de Beauvoir's 'tears for her characters freeze as they drop.'

[grogster]

A pre-war, French intellectual love triangle in an amoral, Godless universe.

 

Woody Allen's next film!

[GrnEyedGemini]

Yes what you believe does matter. Respect has to be earned. Why should I respect a person's belief when they cannot offer hard evidence for it? Why is that worthy of respect?

 

If a christian believes that this country should be governed by biblical principles then are you going to respect that belief? I know I wouldn't! Why? because there are many christians out there who want to use their beliefs to govern society.

 

I'm sure christians would love the idea that someone like me would face fines and/or imprisonment for taking God's name in vain. Afterall it's their desire to run this country by the 10 commandments.

 

For far too long religion has been given a free ride. Somehow religion is given special privileges and thinks it should be immune from criticism.[/quote]

 

 

Actually, you are completely wrong there. We Christians, who worship the God of the Bible, know that people like you are out there and will only multiply. You obviously have no undrstanding about the faith of Chirstianity because your attitude is expected. God told us that we will be treated like dirt, criticized, and even killed for our belief in him. Our religion is not given a free ride. In the end, the Rapture will take us and leave you to deal with the Hell that has taken oer this planet.

[Eve]

I just wanted to add that I understand your questioning.. but there is TRULY only one person who can answer your questions and that is God. I came to faith by asking God a lot of questions and to be honest it took me a long time to trust Him. Somewhere in the Bible it talks about someone praying to God to help them in 'their unbelief'. This is how I have come to an authentic faith in God and now understand Him to be a very sensitive person but thankfully not a psychotic one.

 

Faith is an interesting matter. I have come to understand that all routes are being tested - quite like Einsteins string theory in that all possiblilities exist at once. Every single perspective is being allowed to exist and that really although we feel burdened it is God who is the one who is burdened.

 

I have had experiences of God which I should not tell you about because they are my experiences. All I can say really is to please be careful of not developing your own way of being judgemental to others. I find this a lot with athiests. Its like they do not have their own essence, instead they feed off what they see as repugnant behaviours in others without a core ideal of their own. This type of perspective has always troubled me because wouldnt the truly 'humane' or 'spiritual' response be to feel that somewhere along the line a person needs help in one form or the other? In Christian terms - the sense of being 'broken' once one hears, senses or experiences that someone is experiencing something they fully do not understand?

 

You did state that you are an agnostic, which I think is probably the best way to describe oneself (especially even when searching for God). I think honesty and a sense of humility are the most important things to nurture as a human being. Then again, I live in the UK and do not have the pressure of American politics at my back.....

[disgracian]

Hi Eve,

I just wanted to add that I understand your questioning.. but there is TRULY only one person who can answer your questions and that is God. I came to faith by asking God a lot of questions and to be honest it took me a long time to trust Him.

Would you mind elaborating more on how god answered your questions? It's a topic that interests me a lot. Some claim that he answers with feelings or through dreams (some even claim voices in their heads too), or events that may hold some esoteric significance, and so on.

 

As somebody who, in the past, tried similar communications and failed utterly, I'm interested to hear how other people do it.

 

Cheers,

D.

[Eve]

Hello Disgracian,

 

Sorry, but I do not understand as yet how to outline a quote. I do not have a good, clean response to how God has answered my questions because it seems as this whole relationship thing progresses. Firstly I must say that I was very angry to actually find out that God is real. Mainly because I was minding my own business at the time. I can give some examples though.

 

Anyhow, I asked God very specific questions posed with my very honest expectations. Unfortunately these were mostly quite negative expectations. Still, this how things began. I had always had a 'sensation' that I was being watched over and thought, 'ok, cool as long as I dont see, hear or witness any weird stuff thats fine by me'. Especially as the 'sensations' were not frightening. So, I asked specific questions and just simply watched out for 'signs'. I tempered myself wherever possible, like speaking to God with as much respect as possible but sometimes I was quite upset. His answers have been extremely mind blowing and for this fact I do not tell people things which have happened, instead I work on the 'doing' side of things... which works.

 

Thats it really. I think that much of our concerns about God really are a matter of psychological resistance which is actually part and parcel of learning to live a life of faith. Hence my concern when I hear people speaking harshly about God or anyone really becomes inflamed or saddened. At the end of the day He is either real or not and I do think it worthwhile to find out. Once on the path I think that the biggest issue is learning why you are turning to God in the first instance. I think that a lot of people run with the whole God thing without really weighing up the consequences with God himself. Sorry, that probably doesnt make sense.

 

So, yeah.. I wish I had the eloquence of Deepak Chopra. He explains the whole thing much better than I ever could and has proved a lot of stuff via scientific means which is always a good thing. Look him up. I LOVE Deepak SOOOOO much!

[disgracian]

In order to quote somebody, wrap [QUOTE]...[/QUOTE] tags around what the other person has said. For example:

 

[QUOTE]This is a quote![/QUOTE] becomes

This is a quote!

Just hit the "quote" button at the bottom of their post and the forum will automatically include the contents of that post so you can more easily quote it.

 

I remember being somewhat disappointed when I found out that god either wasn't real or wasn't very interested in interacting with me, especially when so many others around me claimed it was an everyday occurrence. Naturally you wonder what you're doing wrong, but it dawned on me much later on that it shouldn't matter how it's done as long as the intention behind it is genuine. Otherwise we reduce it to the level of reciting incantations or correctly performing rituals, which struck me as rather hackneyed. And since I could vouch for the sincerity of my own intentions (though others of course are more sceptical!), this began my path away from religion to something more real and more meaningful to me.

 

Which leads me to nature. The sun, the planet and everything upon it, which has nurtured and sustained humankind and provided us everything we need from day 1.

 

Cheers,

D.

[barefoot880]

Yes what you believe does matter. Respect has to be earned. Why should I respect a person's belief when they cannot offer hard evidence for it? Why is that worthy of respect?

 

If a christian believes that this country should be governed by biblical principles then are you going to respect that belief? I know I wouldn't! Why? because there are many christians out there who want to use their beliefs to govern society.

 

I'm sure christians would love the idea that someone like me would face fines and/or imprisonment for taking God's name in vain. Afterall it's their desire to run this country by the 10 commandments.

 

For far too long religion has been given a free ride. Somehow religion is given special privileges and thinks it should be immune from criticism.[/quote]

 

 

Actually, you are completely wrong there. We Christians, who worship the God of the Bible, know that people like you are out there and will only multiply. You obviously have no undrstanding about the faith of Chirstianity because your attitude is expected. God told us that we will be treated like dirt, criticized, and even killed for our belief in him. Our religion is not given a free ride. In the end, the Rapture will take us and leave you to deal with the Hell that has taken oer this planet.

 

Well I hope your belief in the rapture is right. I hope Jesus does come and take the christians out of this world. The only time christians will be God's gift to this planet is when they disappear! Why don't you just disappear now?!

 

Yes hell has taken over this planet because of religion! I swear to God I will never repent! I will curse God for all eternity! Those christians on there who said they are praying for me. Well pray all you want to. It's your time you are wasting not mine because your prayers for me don't change a damn thing.

 

I am determined to reject the God of the bible whether he is real or not. He is nothing but a self righteous bastard. He ought to go to hell himself and see how he likes being tortured and burned forevermore!!

 

And yes I publicly declare that the Holy Ghost is a God damn pervert!!! I welcome my arrival in hell after I die. I can't think of a worse punishment than to go to heaven and be bored and tormented for all eternity by self righteous religious biggiots who think it's their job to regulate my private life.

 

Since my soul is already damned to hell then I might as well spend the rest of my life making sure I go out with a BANG! For you christian parents out there who force your kids to go to church and serve your God you are causing that child to grow up to be a serial killer!

 

I hate my own mother for the very fact that she's a born again christian and forced me to go to church when I was a kid. I don't communicate with her today for that very reason. I want nothing to do with any of my family members who embrace God or Jesus Christ!

 

Don't ask me to have respect for the american flag. Don't ask me to have respect for the bible or any other religious literature. All these articles are only good to be burned in the fireplace to keep me warm in the winter time!