Morality and judgmentalness

[TogetherForever]

Is judgmentalness even a real word? I can't find it anywhere

 

(just nitpicking, sorry, but I'm anal that way)

 

 

:lmao:There should be a t-shirt made with "No Judgmentalness" printed on the front just like the one that reads "No Bitchassness".

 

OOOOPS Off topic.

So sorry.

TF

[TogetherForever]

Sorry, another OT coming.

 

Hi TF! Good to see ya!!

 

 

Hello LuvMy!

Good to see you too!!

[pelicanpreacher]

Not always the kids, no. My father's A didn't hurt us kids; my A with MM was welcomed by his kids. Spouse - I guess that depends on the agreement or understanding between them. So I don't agree with "always".

 

If you can't walk by (or is it just cycling?) without intervening when you see people getting hurt, the same could then be argued for the OW who intervenes to step in and save a MM who is getting stomped on and treated badly in his M by rescuing his ego and self-esteem from the "beating" being given by his W. It either IS one's place to interfere in someone else's business, or it's not. It can't only be when it suits one person's morality, but not apply when it doesn't.

 

That was a clever twist to the theme...but I have to agree with Luvmy2ns for yours is the exception to the norm!

[Lyssa]

Because some have huge ego's and never want to admit they're wrong. Or they just like arguing for the sake of it.

 

Some do not want to let others have the last word but I know a few here that just let it go even though they can argue on and on. I'm the type that let it (snide remarks etc) slide cause whoever said it - is not worth my time, especially if I said things nicely in the beginning.

 

I never have trouble conversing with someone such as yourself, Lyssa. You definitely do not come across as someone who cares only for herself, and when you say something you don't put it in as sarcastic and obnoxious terms as possible. In fact, it seems you try your best to remain level headed in your posts.

 

I'm trying my best, especially as of late, to not let certain posters get to me. There are those who enjoy ramming their opinions down others' throats, and when they don't obligingly open up and accept the ramming, they then get ridiculed. It gets extremely old. I am also trying to remember to re-read my posts before I push the submit button to ensure that they come across as intended. It's very difficult to ascertain someone's intent via the net, and some of my past posts have touched nerves in some folks. I'm trying to be better about that.

 

Thanks, Luvmy2ns. I re-read my posts too before I submit them cause I've had enough of infractions and being nasty is just not in me - unless it involves my family or close friends.

[Touche]

Most people do not come to these forums for lectures or sermons. They want help dealing with the information at hand. If you feel they are sinners, they are evil, they will burn in hell for what they are doing...just stay out of it. THEY ARE IN A SITUATION THEY NEED HELP WITH. It's a waste of good time to tell them how terrible they are and how awful their behavior is, if that's your opinion. The moral opinion of an anonymous person somewhere is cyberspace IS TOTALLY WORTHLESS TO PEOPLE!!!

 

What most people are wanting is advice and opinions. They already know what the affairs they are in are against the ten commandments. They already know what they are doing has extreme consequences for many people. They already know that entire lives can be destroyed. That's not what they're here to read about. A drug addict knows they are destroying themselves but you can't talk them out of their next fix. These situations call for love and discretion, understanding and maturity.

 

I can't believe one person in this forum would be so naive to think that their judgmental lecture would have any impact at all on someone in an affair. It's so much better to pass on a thread than to waste time. If you don't have solid advice that can be worded in a helpful way, it's just best to consider yourself disqualified from participating in the thread.

 

I just want to address the bolded parts.

 

The problem sometimes, as I see it, is that there can be a fine line between sermons/lectures and advice and opinions. Or the former can overlap with the latter.

 

Sometimes someone is merely giving advice and/or their opinion but it's taken as a lecture/sermon.

 

And of course we're always in danger of being accused of being "judgmental" when the OP doesn't agree with the advice/opinions given.

 

Giving advice on here can be exasperating sometimes. It's the few times you feel you've actually helped someone that makes it worth it.

[Agent_99]

 

Not judging or speaking out about an affair is standing by and watching someone get hurt. You can not possibly tell me when you are off sneaking around with someones husband, someones dad you are not helping to hurt someone. An affair always leads to hurt of the kids, spouse etc.

 

 

It's not my judgment or my morals it's my not wanting to see another human being hurt, you included. Affairs are painful and until he ends his marriage you are being abused along with his wife and kids whether you want to believe it or not.

 

You love the man then love him enough to tell him you will not contribute to the pain he will cause his family if you are discovered. Tell him to clean up his mess and then you will be there. Love yourself enough not to spend years hiding your love.

 

It's not being judgmental or more moral it's about empathy and caring about other people and their feelings.

 

Other posters have already said it, but affairs don't always hurt the kids and spouse. I'm not saying that I went about it the right way, but my affair starting while I was married, helped me to come to terms with the fact that my marriage was dead AND my XH and I ended it amiacably and are both happier for it being over. Yes it was STRESSFUL, any magor change in life is, good or bad. Kid told me a couple months ago that he is happy that his dad and I divorced as his life is less stressful even with not having us both fulltime, no matter who he is with he has access to the other.

 

As for MW and her partner, kids there see emotional abuse on a regular basis as well as experienceing it from partner, the affair helps MW react to the emotional abuse in a different healthier way, kids see this, all are happier.

(yes there is the irony that I don't get what I want, while making all their lives better)

 

The point here is that by making a blanket statement that ALL affairs hurt the kids, it is the same as saying that ALL people who disagree with affairs are judgemental. It is a judgement.

 

You don't like being judged for not agreeing with affairs. OW dont' like being judged for being in the affair.

 

Morality and judgements are two seperate things.

 

Judgements can come in a personal form and in a general form.

 

I don't condone affairs.

I don't condone your affair.

 

On the Inet wording can be very tricky and so what you mean and what you actually say can be two very different things.

 

On top of that everyone is human and there is never anyone person who can live their life completly judgement free. Our brains work to catagorize things around us and by placing something in a catagory you are judging it.

 

 

~99

Who hopes she communicated HER ideas onthis clearly

[Dark-N-Romantic]

Noforgiveness,

 

I have learned a lot from on here, personal life, reading, t.v. shows, etc. Those who are wrong and don't want to face it will say that you are judging them. They are going to make ever excuse in the book as to why they are right, to continue doing what is wrong, or to justify/minimize their actions. These people are going to be the one to bash you. They are going to be the ones to tell you your wrong or even curse you out. They aren't going to care what anyone says to the contrary of their actions. That is because they don't care. And this is why they were (and are still in very smart countries) stoned to death. This is why many are talked badly about. This is why many of them engage in criminal activities such as harassment, assault, stalking, and murder and or have such activities enacted up them.

 

Sometimes you have to have the same feelings as they do. Just don't care and let whatever consequence comes their way. I have sat back and laughed a few times when an angry Marine's wife be the crap out of him. There was a story about a Marine who rammed his sword through his wife and her lover, killing them both. The Corps sympathize and gave him like 5 or 6 years. And all we do is shrug, say they should of known better, and then acknowledge we understand where he came from. Sometimes the best way to have a person learn a lesson is to like it bite him in the rear.

 

 

DNR

[Tomcat33]

Noforgiveness,

 

Those who are wrong and don't want to face it will say that you are judging them. They are going to make ever excuse in the book as to why they are right, to continue doing what is wrong, or to justify/minimize their actions.

DNR

 

Or somtimes they could be right and in fact YOU ARE judging them, and you are wrong.

 

it works both ways.

 

 

People are far more open to admitting they are wrong or discussing why they are wrong if they don't feel judged and put down.

[Lyssa]

People are far more open to admitting they are wrong or discussing why they are wrong if they don't feel judged and put down.

 

That is so true! I don't have a problem admitting that I am wrong, what I have problem is people being judgmental and calling names. Talk about being classy.

[Dark-N-Romantic]

Or somtimes they could be right and in fact YOU ARE judging them, and you are wrong.

 

it works both ways.

 

 

People are far more open to admitting they are wrong or discussing why they are wrong if they don't feel judged and put down.

 

I agree. But, then again, from what I have noticed from here and real life, the moment someone tells another their activities are wrong (even if it is obvious), their activities are called into question, or they are not getting the validation they want, how they want it, then they are feeling judged and put down.

 

Judgmental...

You are a worthless so and so.

 

Nonjudgmental...

You are wrong because...

 

Judgmental...

You are going to die because you are an adulterer/adulteress.

 

Nonjudgmental...

Because of the problems adultery causes people die.

 

Judgmental...

Your children are going to have a screwed up for life because of your cheating ways.

 

Nonjudgmental...

Your cheating ways has a negative impact on the lives of your children.

 

See the difference? One is clearly judgmental and a put down. The other isn't.

 

 

DNR

[Lookingforward]

Judgmental...

You are a worthless so and so.

 

Nonjudgmental...

You are wrong because...

 

Judgmental...

You are going to die because you are an adulterer/adulteress.

 

Nonjudgmental...

Because of the problems adultery causes people die.

 

Judgmental...

Your children are going to have a screwed up for life because of your cheating ways.

 

Nonjudgmental...

Your cheating ways has a negative impact on the lives of your children.

 

See the difference? One is clearly judgmental and a put down. The other isn't.

 

 

DNR

 

You are STILL making a "'judgement" that they are wrong (which they are according to YOUR rules) but they may not see it that way and a couple of those 'second way to respond' answers are still predicting an outcome that you can't possibly know.

[Mino]

Judgmental...

You are a worthless so and so.

 

Nonjudgmental...

You are wrong because...

 

Judgmental...

You are going to die because you are an adulterer/adulteress.

 

Nonjudgmental...

Because of the problems adultery causes people die.

 

Judgmental...

Your children are going to have a screwed up for life because of your cheating ways.

 

Nonjudgmental...

Your cheating ways has a negative impact on the lives of your children.

 

See the difference? One is clearly judgmental and a put down. The other isn't.

 

 

DNR

DNR, you posted on the other thread, calling the ow a "Skank" what do you classify that as Non judgementl:rolleyes: Just wondering....

[Mino]

Oh DNR, I wanted to menton that also in SOME countries people also get stone to death for being JUDGEMENTAL..... Aren't yu glad you don't live there?

[Dark-N-Romantic]

You are STILL making a "'judgement" that they are wrong (which they are according to YOUR rules) but they may not see it that way and a couple of those 'second way to respond' answers are still predicting an outcome that you can't possibly know.

 

Lets see.

 

Society says adultery is wrong.

Spouses not looking for an open relationship say it is wrong.

Various religious texts and beliefs say its wrong.

Professionals say its wrong.

Children say its wrong.

Parents and loved ones say its wrong.

Judges say its wrong.

 

Hmmmmm. So, how is that judgmental?

 

If you are right. Then, are we be judgmental over robbers? Are we wrong for calling pedophiles wrong, don't they have a right not to care about laws and vows that protect our children? How about liars? If they should not be called for what they are because to them that is judgmental, is does that make it so?

 

Someone once said I see life as black and white. They are completely wrong. I see live in is various shades of the rainbow. However, if there were not certain black and white things like laws (which DO judge people's acts and thus allows others to judge people when they fit the bill of the broken law), then everyone would be right. Women could be molested and raped because someone saw their way as right and don't care what they say or how they feel. Where would society be if people could pollute our waters, experiment on others at random, etc. We need the black and white to stabilize society and to get people to live and work together in harmony. And to provide protection to them when others do things contrary to that peace and harmony.

 

DNR

[Dark-N-Romantic]

Oh DNR, I wanted to menton that also in SOME countries people also get stone to death for being JUDGEMENTAL..... Aren't yu glad you don't live there?

 

Really, tell me what countries.

 

I know in China a woman can kill her husband with her bear hands if he cheats on her and that she could use whatever means on the lover. Granted I doubt it is anything that is still on the books, but it was there.

 

 

DNR

 

Oh. And I am glad wherever I live. Granted there are places I would not want to live, but even then, as long as I am alive and able to effect a change in it, I am satisfied.

[Agent_99]

Lets see.

 

Society says adultery is wrong.

Spouses not looking for an open relationship say it is wrong.

Various religious texts and beliefs say its wrong.

Professionals say its wrong.

Children say its wrong.

Parents and loved ones say its wrong.

Judges say its wrong.

 

Hmmmmm. So, how is that judgmental?

 

If you are right. Then, are we be judgmental over robbers? Are we wrong for calling pedophiles wrong, don't they have a right not to care about laws and vows that protect our children? How about liars? If they should not be called for what they are because to them that is judgmental, is does that make it so?

 

Someone once said I see life as black and white. They are completely wrong. I see live in is various shades of the rainbow. However, if there were not certain black and white things like laws (which DO judge people's acts and thus allows others to judge people when they fit the bill of the broken law), then everyone would be right. Women could be molested and raped because someone saw their way as right and don't care what they say or how they feel. Where would society be if people could pollute our waters, experiment on others at random, etc. We need the black and white to stabilize society and to get people to live and work together in harmony. And to provide protection to them when others do things contrary to that peace and harmony.

 

DNR

 

What if we lived in a society where it was socially and legally acceptable to to have extra-marital relationships, EVEN THOUGH it hurt the poeple involved. Then the judgment would be that it WAS acceptable and alright.

 

The point is that no matter what OPINION or judgement call a person makes, no matter how socially acceptable it is, it is still a judgment.

 

Judgments are subjective to the context they are made from. No one has the ability to step outside of their personal experience and say that they are being objective. Even with more knowledge and an open mind you are STILL forming your thoughts and opinions based on WHAT you have experienced.

 

As to comparing cheaters to pedophiles. I guess that is your call to make for YOU, but not everyone is going to see it the ame way. I suppose in analytical discuaaion there are parallels, but you are dealing with different circumstances and different mentalities.

 

And while I agree that society needs structure to avoid choas. I don't condone mindless conformity. Our society has a lot larger problems to deal with than adultery. But that is MY judgement call. There will be someone who feels that we live in a near perfect society.

 

Also I would like to point out that WE DO live in a society where people pollute not only our waters, but also the ground and air.

 

Stabilizing society isn't about the rules, that is just a matter of using the right type of 'glue' to hold it together. For the rules to work everyone has to agree on them, just like the glue you use has to bond to all surfaces.

 

~99

[Tomcat33]

Wow I don't know how I missed this...

 

. These people are going to be the one to bash you. They are going to be the ones to tell you your wrong or even curse you out. They aren't going to care what anyone says to the contrary of their actions. That is because they don't care. And this is why they were (and are still in very smart countries) stoned to death. This is why many are talked badly about.

 

This explains a lot.

 

 

Whoa! "Smart countries!?!?"

 

May I remind you of the grave imbalance that accompanies such ignorant laws as stoning and how they also predominantly favour MEN due to the masogynistic tendencies of said cultures? Men are far more adulterous than women because they can escape being sentenced, where as women have no chance whatsoever. The act of stoning alone is different for a man than what it is for a woman. A woman is buried from the neck down where as the man is burried from the waist down so if a person manages to escape they can survive being killed, and guess who has the higher odd of surviving? Men have a right and many avenues to dissolve a marriage that is deemed as unsatisfactory and even EXCUSED to have extra marital sex in some instances where he can prove the woman is not up to par, women DO not. In the rare case where a woman can prove that their spouse is abusive she may get the D but the law still awards custody of the children to the men, exclusively.

 

Might I also remind you that in certain parts of the world the colour of someone's skin is also deemeds as "WRONG" for being the wrong colour you can not sit on the same bus as the people of the right colour, drink from the public water fountain that the right coulour is supposed to drink from or walk on the side of the road that was built for the "right" colour.

 

Right and wrong is punished in all sorts of barbaric ways all over the world by people who feel they are SO superior they can act as god and take into their hands the life of another human being.

 

 

Anyone who would support this insane infringement of human rights, can be expected to manifes similar displays of violation when it comes to personal will of others.

 

So we can debate judgement VS nonjudgement but I'm afraid we are talking two completely different languages and coming from two very different "cultures", our "cultural" differences in this case cannot be overcome.

[OWoman]

I know in China a woman can kill her husband with her bear hands if he cheats on her and that she could use whatever means on the lover.

 

But she'd first have to kill the bear to get its hands to use as a weapon, which would mean finding a bear, tracking it and killing it, and then amputating the hands. By which time I reckon the bear hunting licence authority has tipped off the CH and he's moved to a country that doesn't have bears. And we all know how difficult it is to smuggle bear limbs through customs, so hed be pretty safe.

[Lookingforward]

But she'd first have to kill the bear to get its hands to use as a weapon, which would mean finding a bear, tracking it and killing it, and then amputating the hands. By which time I reckon the bear hunting licence authority has tipped off the CH and he's moved to a country that doesn't have bears. And we all know how difficult it is to smuggle bear limbs through customs, so hed be pretty safe.

 

:lmao::lmao:

[pelicanpreacher]

But she'd first have to kill the bear to get its hands to use as a weapon, which would mean finding a bear, tracking it and killing it, and then amputating the hands. By which time I reckon the bear hunting licence authority has tipped off the CH and he's moved to a country that doesn't have bears. And we all know how difficult it is to smuggle bear limbs through customs, so hed be pretty safe.

 

Don't you mean paws?! :lmao:

 

I'm taking my butt to bed!

[noforgiveness]

Other posters have already said it, but affairs don't always hurt the kids and spouse. I'm not saying that I went about it the right way, but my affair starting while I was married, helped me to come to terms with the fact that my marriage was dead AND my XH and I ended it amiacably and are both happier for it being over. Yes it was STRESSFUL, any magor change in life is, good or bad. Kid told me a couple months ago that he is happy that his dad and I divorced as his life is less stressful even with not having us both fulltime, no matter who he is with he has access to the other.

 

As for MW and her partner, kids there see emotional abuse on a regular basis as well as experienceing it from partner, the affair helps MW react to the emotional abuse in a different healthier way, kids see this, all are happier.

(yes there is the irony that I don't get what I want, while making all their lives better)

 

The point here is that by making a blanket statement that ALL affairs hurt the kids, it is the same as saying that ALL people who disagree with affairs are judgemental. It is a judgement.

 

You don't like being judged for not agreeing with affairs. OW dont' like being judged for being in the affair.

 

Morality and judgements are two seperate things.

 

Judgements can come in a personal form and in a general form.

 

I don't condone affairs.

I don't condone your affair.

 

On the Inet wording can be very tricky and so what you mean and what you actually say can be two very different things.

 

On top of that everyone is human and there is never anyone person who can live their life completly judgement free. Our brains work to catagorize things around us and by placing something in a catagory you are judging it.

 

 

~99

Who hopes she communicated HER ideas onthis clearly

 

Did you have a dday or did the affair stay hidden?

[Dark-N-Romantic]

What if we lived in a society where it was socially and legally acceptable to to have extra-marital relationships, EVEN THOUGH it hurt the poeple involved. Then the judgment would be that it WAS acceptable and alright.

 

The point is that no matter what OPINION or judgement call a person makes, no matter how socially acceptable it is, it is still a judgment.

 

Judgments are subjective to the context they are made from. No one has the ability to step outside of their personal experience and say that they are being objective. Even with more knowledge and an open mind you are STILL forming your thoughts and opinions based on WHAT you have experienced.

 

As to comparing cheaters to pedophiles. I guess that is your call to make for YOU, but not everyone is going to see it the ame way. I suppose in analytical discuaaion there are parallels, but you are dealing with different circumstances and different mentalities.

 

And while I agree that society needs structure to avoid choas. I don't condone mindless conformity. Our society has a lot larger problems to deal with than adultery. But that is MY judgement call. There will be someone who feels that we live in a near perfect society.

 

Also I would like to point out that WE DO live in a society where people pollute not only our waters, but also the ground and air.

 

Stabilizing society isn't about the rules, that is just a matter of using the right type of 'glue' to hold it together. For the rules to work everyone has to agree on them, just like the glue you use has to bond to all surfaces.

 

~99

 

If the land does, and more people than not accepted affairs, then worldly they would not be wrong. But, my laws that I follow (meaning my religious laws), tell me it is wrong and I should not do it nor support anyone who is doing it. My religion denies me the practice of doing what is morally and ethically wrong when it concerns hurting others (which does NOT mean I don't state truths because others don't like them).

 

Once upon a time in this land, women were happy to stay at home and raise the kids. Most did not care or need an education outside of what was necessary to be a effective house member. Many did not have the right to vote. Many men felt it was okay to belittle, hit, rape, and even murder their wives, for they were property. Society supported it and most women chalked it up as to this is the way things were suppose to be.

 

Now look at you all today. Many more women are making more money than their male counterparts. There are women who do the sports on t.v. news broadcasts. There are female combat military members and commanders. We had a female run for the highest office in the nation. Why? Because what was once thought socially okay was found out to be wrong. And thus, through people fighting and discussing, and even dying for these beliefs, look how our women shine today... At least here in America (there are women who shine all over the world).

 

There are a lot of examples of people and societies supporting wrongness to other people and beings as right, but so much has changed since then, and so much more will continue to change.

 

So that debunks the theory that if a society accepts things that is harmful to others as right, will not change. It is because it is not right, in time it will change.

 

If your saying what I think your saying in part to of your statement. I should start supporting us NOT judging pedophiles. I should start a decision to stop society from judging rapists, murderers, abusers, thieves, drug addicts, liars, and the like as wrong. I mean they know what they are doing is wrong to themselves and/or others. Many feel they have the absolute right to take what they want from this world and not seen as criminal... How would you feel if we took away the sex offender registry? Isn't that a tool of judging one by his or her past and in an undertone used to inspire fear of that person that move into our neighborhoods?

 

But, I am going to guess you and others are not going to see or accept my terminology on this because these acts or MORE despicable. But, this is why things are they we they are... We want to trivialize and justify and measure things against one another. This is more wrong than that or this was not as bad as this was, instead of dealing with the one big binding fact that runs across the board... ALL OF THESE ACTS HURT PEOPLE!!! There is no judgment in that. And this is what is being addressed.

 

If your right about your last statement. Then, we ALL are judgmental the moment we state anything positive or negative to someone. And if you claim that judgments should not be made in such things as adultery. Then, no one should pat anyone on the back for doing great in school. We should not have jurors and judges. We should not have laws and vows for they give us a guideline on which to judge others. We should not have the news and books that makes one question and measure and judge their actions against their intents. So, what is your suggestion if everything you say is judgmental?

 

 

DNR

[Dark-N-Romantic]

But she'd first have to kill the bear to get its hands to use as a weapon, which would mean finding a bear, tracking it and killing it, and then amputating the hands. By which time I reckon the bear hunting licence authority has tipped off the CH and he's moved to a country that doesn't have bears. And we all know how difficult it is to smuggle bear limbs through customs, so hed be pretty safe.

 

Hahahahahahahahaha. DISMISSED without even any need for an explanation.

 

 

DNR

At least make an intelligent point afterward so that I can see if you are getting what I am saying. Now for those of you who don't know, that was a typo. Bear = bare.

[OWoman]

Lets see.

 

Society says adultery is wrong.

Spouses not looking for an open relationship say it is wrong.

Various religious texts and beliefs say its wrong.

Professionals say its wrong.

Children say its wrong.

Parents and loved ones say its wrong.

Judges say its wrong.

 

Hmmmmm. So, how is that judgmental?

 

It's not just judgmental, it's also completely fallacious.

SOME societies say adultery is wrong. Others hold no view either way, and others enshrine it. Your society is no measure of ALL societies, just as your opinion is no more than just your opinion.

SOME spouses not looking for an open relationship do not say it is wrong.

SOME religions are open-minded about "adultery"and some religious texts - like the old testament - enshrine the role of concubines and multiple wives, and heroify men who have sex with their servants and other mens' wives.

Perhaps SOME professionals say it is wrong, but at least as many hold neutral or favourable views on it. Many APs are themselves professionals.

SOME children may say it's wrong, but many others don't. Neither I nor my siblings said my father's A was wrong, and MM's kids are in favour of his.

Likewise, even if SOME parents or loved ones have issues, very many don't. MM's family have supported, facilitated and welcomed his A from the outset. Friends and colleagues likewise.

SOME judges may have personal issues iwth it, but the law doesn't (at least, not in civilised countries) and many judges are themselves APs and thus hold views to the contrary of your assertion.

 

Sorry DNR, you're wrong again. I guess this makes you feel bashed and judged, according to your earlier assertion about "people who are wrong" not liking having that pointed out to them. Try not to take it too much to heart, and I promise we won't stone you, however much you admire people who stone those who are wrong.

[OWoman]

Don't you mean paws?! :lmao:

 

I'm taking my butt to bed!

 

 

DNR said hands, and perhaps in that remote Chinese enclave the bears do have hands.

Maybe they juggle in the circus too? I've seen that in comic books...