Talking things out with "Mom" - long, sorry...

[luvstarved]

I have bitched about my MIL on here before, no self-esteem, ridiculously servile with her son (my H), treating him like the king of the world, and interfering in my household. My theory is that his general narcissistic issues come from the way she raised him.

 

I found out over time that he had discussed very personal issues with her (our sex life, for one), things he would not tell me (like at one time he consulted a divorce lawyer behind my back while swearing to me he was happier than he'd ever been), and knowing that she always agrees with him 100% I said that I had a problem with it,first because talking to her about our sex life made me feel icky,but also as we are trying to work things out, I feel that her "you are right my darling" attitude (especially when MC said that his biggest issue is needing to be right at all costs and not being able to listen to another point of view) is not objective and she is further unqualified as a therapist.

 

Well....he said that he rarely had talked with her and that even when he did she was very fair and supportive toward me but would honor my wishes...that was probably 6 months ago. So,I accepted this despite seeing a lot of phone calls to her when I was not home...and carried on.

 

We had a bit of a blow up and he characteristically failed to see my side of things and instead chose to throw out vicious and contradictory insults toward me. I was very hurt and angry and I characteristically become subdued (not silent,just not happy and loving) for a couple of days.

 

So I come home where she is babysitting and as I am walking up the steps I hear her side of a conversation with my H BOOMING out of the front window. She sounds really angry and I hear

 

"What do you expect? She's a pain in the ass. She's a miserable person, has always been a miserable person and will always be a miserable person. You've been with her for 12 years and it hasn't changed and never will. (pause) EXACTLY! What the hell does she want, you have a house and went on vacation,she'll never be satisfied!!! (pause) Well, I don't know why you put up with her, but this will pass,and you'll have some good times again...don't worry..."

 

So I walk in and calmly say "if you are going to have that kind of converrsation in my house, please keep it down so that the neighbors don't have to hear it."

 

"Why should I? It's all TRUE!!!!!"

 

Meanwhile, H calls me on my cell unaware that I had heard this and starts off all normal-happy. I cut him off and say, I just heard that entire conversation with your mother and I do not appreciate it.

 

And he's like,that was no big deal, she didn't say anything bad about you...WTF?????

 

Now she is ranting in the background that she feels so sorry for him having to tolerate me, etc. I put down phone and say, yes, loudly, "I am not interested in your opinion. Thank you for babysitting. You can go home now".

 

Then she rants about me being jealous of her, blah blah, and I just cut her off and say again, "I said I am not interested in your opinion. Please leave"

 

She leaves, I get back on phone and H rips into me for yelling at his mother. WTF?

 

He comes home and another big blow up about my endless criticism being INTOLERABLE (you mean, could you please treat your family with love and respect???) and eventual " we will continue to work it out"...

 

Next day, I ask his mother to please mind her own business, she says she is his mother and will say what she pleases and that I might not always be his wife but she will always be his mother (I WANTED to say "well he chose to be my H, but did not choose to be your son" but restrained myself). She said that she would always take his side no matter what and that was the correct thing to do. I said that she only heard his side and not the verbal abuse that preceded my "funk" and that she was undermining our counseling efforts to resolve our issues. She actually conceded that I might have a point then, but once again declared her intentions to "take his side" no matter what.

 

So, now I am cordial but very cool toward her. In the past, I have made a HUGE effort to be warm, friendly, helpful. I got them out of a major financial crisis (without my H's help) and even went and bought and installed window treatments for their new condo (without my H's help). He never tells her she needs to babysit til the last second, I try to always keep her informed and gasp - even ask if it is convenient (it always is), he always bought her crappy gift certs and I always tried to get her thoughtful and appreciated gifts. And, to my face, she

acted like she appreciated it.

 

Now this. My feeling now is one of deep hurt. I am mixed honestly on whether I should try to insist that he not talk with her about our M, I understand they had 30+ years of history before I came along, but it sure doesn't seem to help to tell him he is 100% right when thinking that has proven to be a major problem for him.

 

His sister once told me that the entire rest of the family think that my H and his mother's relationship is "out there" and almost "sick" and that she always discussed his sex life at length with him.

 

It seems that in a contest for my H, she will win. So maybe I should buck up and do the warm and friendly act again. But my inclination is to keep her at arm's length and never have more than a superficial R with her. I don't feel right being warm toward someone who is against me as a matter of policy.

 

I know my H still sounds like a real a**hole and he can be, but he really is trying and has made great improvements and although I concede he is an adult, I can't help but blame her for the way he is...I know she tried like all parents do and I don't really like the word blame,but do think the way she raised him caused most of his issues with adult relationships...

 

I was flabbergasted though that later they both said, what??? She didn't say anything negative, what are you talking about???

 

I did not mishear the words. Is there ANY interpretation of what she said that was "not negative"???

 

Thanks once again for letting me vent. I would appreciate any advice on how to handle the MIL thing in a fair and respectful way. I don't know if I am fair to ask him not to talk to her but it really seems to be getting in the way...

 

I also understand from his POV that she "does a lot" but my take is that what she does she does for him and is further largely unnecessary (there are two teenagers here who could babysit) and even further mostly unwelcome to me(oh the boundary violations...)

 

Sorry so long...

[luna3]

if there are other people to be babysitting for you, i wouldn't be asking her. these are YOUR children? she should not be speaking about you like that anywhere near them, and although she is their grandmother and has a certain right to see her grandkids, the attitude that she displays about you is bound to be obvious to their perceptive little minds. it would be horrid if they ever chose to side with dear-sweet-little-granny instead of understandably grumpy mom.

 

i'm very sorry that i'm too new here to be familiar with all aspects of your story. you say that you are currently in marriage counselling? if so, then i would bring this up at the very next meeting. some people, especially "old school" or people with old-world values do have the attitude that they will back their kids against anybody. this isn't necessarily wrong, except when those folks instill the attitude in their kids that everything they do is faultless. parents should be familiar enough with their kids to know when they are being jack*sses.

 

they should also be adult enough to stay the hell out of their kids' relationships. i'm sorry for you that this doesn't seem to be the case here. i hope that your marriage counselor will have some good suggestions for you. under these circumstances, i would maintain a regal, polite, but distantly cordial relationship with her. it is irrational to think that you should be expected to kvetch over coffee with her, or smile graciously over the links at the next family barbecue.

[Ronni_W]

I also understand from his POV that she "does a lot"

She is NOT doing anything positive and loving for him! Ultimately, she is poisoning his mind and his marriage. Well, I guess that is "doing a lot" but...

My suspicion would also be that EVERYTHING that she does that is seemingly for him is NOT for him but for her own angry, hostile agenda. She can control, manipulate and poison much more effectively when she is in his 'physical space'.

 

 

This mother and son team appear to be doing "emotional incest" -- there are no boundaries at all, not even unhealthy ones. It's past enmeshment, which is common between family members.

 

I agree to introduce in a counseling session, his pattern of betraying the confidences, and violating the privacy, of his wife and his marriage. Hopefully an unbiased 3rd party can influence hubby to see how hurtful and damaging are his actions.

 

No, there was nothing "not negative" that you overhead. She sounds as if she is carrying around a lot of repressed anger and hostility, really. Likely her son's wife was going to be her convenient target/scapegoat, no matter who he had married.

Not sure if it is of any comfort that hers are not personal attacks on you, though. For him also, most likely it's not about who you are but that he's being driven by a (perhaps only subconscious) warped need to maintain their totally dysfunctional relationship dynamics.

 

Sounds as if they each need intensive, individual psychotherapy.

 

Hopefully the marriage counselor will prove effective. Possibly even s/he might want to have one-on-one's with your hubby -- it may be more productive for him to hear a few truths without you present (so he doesn't just have to get all defensive, so he can truly hear what the MC is trying to help him to see.)

 

Sending hugs...and angels of Guidance, Healing and Comfort.

[Haloandhorns85]

I have never been in a situationlike yours so I don't believe I have any advice for you. But as I read your post, this old saying came to mind: "Keep your friends close, but keep your enemies closer."

[vedderbetter]

Tell your husband that if his main concern is the happiness of his mommy then he can pack up his crap and move in with her. There is only one Queen Bee in your home and that's YOU. He promised to cleave only unto you and obviously, this requires a severing of the apron strings. This tripod power struggle is unhealthy for everyone, especially your children who are learning that Daddy loves Grandma more than Mommy (because Grandma is always jealous and nasty to you and your husband allows and encourages it) and that's not normal.

 

Your husband needs immediate help - get him into a good family therapist. If he truly is a narcassist, then he will never change and you will have to decide if you want to spend the rest of your life married to his mother. Once a N always an N. Narcassists make miserable partners - they thrive on knocking you off balance with sweet and mean switches at unpredictable moments. You will never be first. Ever. So, if I were you, I would try family therapy but I would also be prepared to get out of this toxic threeway if consistant, reliable and believable improvement is not made in your marriage. I would also insist on an apology from your pig of MIL before she was so much as allowed to speak to your children. Can you imagine what she says about you when you're not there? You kids deserve better than her. Your husband must alos tell her, in your presence, that any negative commentary about you will NOT BE TOLERATED and will result in an immediate and total cutoff the next time it happens. No second chances. Period. If she has a key to your house, change the locks.

 

You cannot let old, bitter battle-axes like these gain once inch of ground. They will take that inch and flatten you because they are competing with you for your husband. To her, your husband will always be her darling boy and you're the nasty b*tch who came and ripped him screaming and weeping from her loving arms, ruining her family. In her mind, he cannot possibly be happy with you because he can't be happy with anyone but dear old Mommy. It's really f-ing sick if you think about it. Is your MIL married?

 

Best of luck to you. This will be one hell of a battle, trust me. I've lived it.

[FlyingToaster]

Oh, luvstarved! I'm so sorry to hear about this recent encounter. Your MIL is a real piece of work.

 

I do agree with the others that she does what she does to benefit only herself. She may say that she is supporting her son, but being Narcissistic, she can't truly love anybody. If it came right down to it, she'd probably let him jump off a bridge if it meant saving herself.

 

I think you should get some support via counselling as far as how to handle things once you've had enough of them and call it quits. I know you love your H, but he's not being a good Husband or father. Do you think you'd be happier without him? If so, you'd be setting a better example to your kids; you don't need someone in your life to be complete.

 

Sorry to ramble. Just keep coming back to LS for support. We're all here for you.

 

Take Care

[luvstarved]

Thanks for replies. I just called my SIL which would normally be against my open and honest policy but since there are all sorts of shenanigans going on behind my back, I figure WTF?

 

I had talked to her once before when she was pissed with my H and at that time she confirmed all my worst fears. BUT - I thought, she was pissed, I am trying to be understanding, let me give her another call and see if she has any different insight...

 

She did not. She confirmed again all my fears and said that the entire family and the neighborhood growing up saw that there was a sick relationship between my H and his mother...ga-reat.

 

I also tried to talk with my H but he did not see my side of things at all. I said that I wanted him to understand that being called a relentless miserable pain in the ass by his mother hurt my feelings, but his IMMEDIATE and VEHEMENT response was that I had kicked an elderly woman out on her ear (by saying "I am not interested in your opinion, please leave my home" - after she said what she said about me - how evil can I get?)

 

I humbly admit defeat. I am going to ask for a divorce. I feel sorry for the two of them, but not for the reasons they will no doubt imagine in their unified mind.

 

OMG Life can really suck sometimes.

[luvstarved]

BTW my SIL also had all the gory details about the sexless phase of my M - sweet, eh???

[Ronni_W]

I humbly admit defeat. I am going to ask for a divorce. ... OMG Life can really suck sometimes.

Sorry, luvstarved. Sending hugs and angels of Comfort.

[stone22]

I admire you for being able to put up with that kind of injustice. That would absolutley drive me nuts if I had to deal with it first hand.

 

You are justified in how you feel. Your rights as a human are being tampled on and good for you for standing up for yourself!

 

My question to you is-- is there a possibility that you may be eliciting some of this behavior in some small way? Maybe by how you stand up for yourself or the way that you project yourself? These two are clearly bullies. My wife is not always aware of how she projects herself, and she can come off as crabby or miserable at times even when there is nothing bothering her. Don't get me wrong--- I am in no way excusing your clearly insane MIL and H, but this maybe a good chance to take a good look at yourself as well and see if there maybe a better way for you to stand up for your rights as a human and prevent this injustice from happening to you again.

 

Really, good luck to you. I can imagine that you are going through a lot right now and feeling a whol roller coaster of feelings. Hang in there!!!

[luvstarved]

This is hilariously predictable. I have not mentioned the D word to H yet and not even sure I will have the nerve to...SIL recommended I call a cousin who would have additional insight and reaffirm my perception of the situation (in case SIL, who was the neglected kid, might seem bitterly biased) so I will do that as soon as I humanly can.

 

I also wanted to bring this up at the very next counseling session but...here is the funny part...today while I was trying to talk to my H about this stuff, he suddenly brought up that he was not so sure that the counselor we are seeing is really working for us. It is like...he KNOWS that I am going to bring this up in counseling, so he wants to shortcircuit that by deciding beforehand that the counselor is incompetent...so when the counselor tells him, as surely he will, that boundaries are required STAT, he will say, see, I told you this guy was clueless...I just can't help but be amused in all of this by his utterly transparent manipulation. He thinks the world of the counselor whenever we are talking about MY issues.

 

I feel so bad because I feel my H is a good but very damaged man...and I wish that he could see through her. SIL said that MIL will never ever change and that there seems to be little hope that H will either. SIL said that when we got married, the whole family was scratching their head and asking each other whether I was blind to what was going on.

 

Guilty. I was in love. I thought the separation would happen over time.

D-OH!!

[Curmudgeon]

Guilty. I was in love. I thought the separation would happen over time.

D-OH!!

 

I'm truly sorry, luvstarved. The term "arrested emotional development" comes immediately to mind and you were out-gunned before you even started. He's the penultimate Momma's Boy. The only thing worse would be....well....let's not go there.

 

Don't kick yourself. When we're in love we all believe the best of our partners/spouses and we just know that our love will overcome any obstacles. Unfortunatelyt, as even I'm finding out now at the age of 62, less a few days, that's not always the reality.

 

Go easy on yourself but at the same time, protect yourself.

 

I wish you all the best. Unfortunately, I don't think that will include him.

[luvstarved]

Thanks, Curmudgeon. I am so sick to my stomach right now...and not to "go there" but my H has said on 3 occasions over our years together that he got "sexual signals" from his mother...EEEEEEEEWWWWWWWWW.

 

I am going to write him a letter that is going to make or break this marriage. I will probably post it here before delivering it in hopes that I can get feedback on any tactical errors it might contain.

 

I do not know what I would do without you guys on LS. I hope I don't have to find out because if my suspicions are correct (the letter will be poorly interpreted and there goes the marriage) I will be needing a lot more support...

[luna3]

do what you think you must, but don't post it here.

 

although i love to be fly on the wall in other people's lives, the first one who reads it should, by rights, be your husband. this problem stems from too many people in the marriage, and to invite all of us in at this crucial point to view a personal letter just invites more participants to the fray.

 

now, if you want advice on what to say in this letter, that you could heed or discard at will....

[Ronni_W]

...if my suspicions are correct (the letter will be poorly interpreted and there goes the marriage)

Luvstarved,

Have you considered what would happen if the letter does NOT end the marriage...but nothing else changes, either? That is, what would be YOUR next step? -- I may just be reading too much "in between the lines" but it seems that you have made your decision...and are just waiting for someone else to act on it (?)

[luvstarved]

Luvstarved,

Have you considered what would happen if the letter does NOT end the marriage...but nothing else changes, either? That is, what would be YOUR next step? -- I may just be reading too much "in between the lines" but it seems that you have made your decision...and are just waiting for someone else to act on it (?)

 

Ronni, you nailed my biggest fear. Nice work!

 

I sent the letter nearly two hours ago. He has not responded. I sent an

email to his work address telling him that I sent it to our personal mailbox,

to which we both have access. He responded to a later work email but

the letter sits unread in the personal account. I can understand that

maybe he doesn't have time in work day to read a long letter, but a)

he doesn't know how long it is b) I would by dying to read such a letter

from him.

 

I DID send the letter to an old and very trusted friend first for their

input. I do NOT like involving others and rarely have, but since H is

so given to taking things the wrong way, and has felt free to broadcast our business where he saw fit, and I am feeling that this is a crucial point in our marriage - our very lives, I wanted some reassurance

that I was coming across as I intended. Friend, who is very forthright,

said it was truly lovely and obviously heartfelt and loving, etc. Gave

really outstanding feedback really (did point out a couple of rewordings

I might consider).

 

So. It's sent.

[Haloandhorns85]

hmmm...seems to me she's trying one last effort before she finally calls it quits. Seeing as she's been dealing with it so long she already knows what to expect. Why is it so bad not to get your hopes up that someone or something will change? In that situation, I'd be cautious to get my hopes up that something positive would come out of it saving myself from utter disappointment...nonetheless, put forth the last effort so that I can assure myself I tried everything possible before ending my marriage. I don't see anything wrong with how she's handling this.

[luvstarved]

hmmm...seems to me she's trying one last effort before she finally calls it quits. Seeing as she's been dealing with it so long she already knows what to expect. Why is it so bad not to get your hopes up that someone or something will change? In that situation, I'd be cautious to get my hopes up that something positive would come out of it saving myself from utter disappointment...nonetheless, put forth the last effort so that I can assure myself I tried everything possible before ending my marriage. I don't see anything wrong with how she's handling this.

 

Thank you, that is my intention and if not met positively, it will be

pretty irrefutable information that I need to get the hell out. I

very much fear as Ronni pointed out though that, despite myself,

I am in the end "bluffing".

 

Heck, I have easily left relationships where I was the one who was not

really in love. It is a lot harder when you are in love and do it solely

for emotional self-preservation or don't do it because delusion and

near proximity trump reality and solitude...

 

I called him on the phone but he was with a client and then going out

to lunch with his "group" (which consists of him and 5 females all much

younger than me).

 

Now I am imagining him going out for a fun lighthearted, perhaps even

vaguely flirtatious lunch with 5 attractive females who are young and

more importantly, never been f**ked by him and then coming back to

this long semi-downer letter...I know that is BADBADBAD thinking and

I am resisting it, but it is hard when one is waiting and has nothing else

to do but...wait...

[whichwayisup]

I'm sitting here in shock. Your MIL is a piece of work and she certainly has some balls!

 

They have a sick mother/son relationship and neither of them are going to change. Only you can change - Laugh it off and don't let what she says bug you (I KNOW easier said than done) and just know that she IS in the wrong here and she has some real f**ked up issues as well as your son. Fact the whole family is aware of their unhealthy relationship just shows how screwed up this is. They're both in denial.

 

I feel for you though. I couldn't imagine having to deal with this on a daily basis.

[luvstarved]

My question to you is-- is there a possibility that you may be eliciting some of this behavior in some small way? Maybe by how you stand up for yourself or the way that you project yourself? [\quote]

 

I did not mean to gloss over this...absolutely I am human. My prime areas of complaining have been with parents overinvolvement, his seeming lack

of romantic interest in me, his double standard of not having to want to meet my needs but needing his met completely and immediately, and his general issue with anger, particularly if directed at kids. I do have praise to offer too - he is loyal,curious,fun to be with, spiritual and reliable in day to day matters, boyish in cute as well as not so cute ways, and GD sexy,

and I REALLY DO feel that he is trying to do better.

 

But oh yes I have gotten frustrated and moody and sarcastic and distant and angry...all of those things at various times. But, I don't think more so than others. A good friend told me that yes I can be moody and can be difficult to read, but always follow up, or try to,with honesty and rational thinking and they see NO truth in most of the things that H has said about me...and that being a little moody (they said mild to moderate at times) is certainly not willful malice..people other than my H have historically said that I am very laid back and smart and funny, but he doesn't see that me somehow...

 

He gets angry and goes off negatively about people at the SLIGHTEST hint of negativity toward him and many times he is DEAD WRONG. Mom never told him this. Seriously the world is crawling with jealous a**holes.

 

Do I need to improve? Bet your ass I do. But any attempt I make at honest communication is met with being told what I think, and...people,what I think is not good. My oh my..I am untrustworthy, clingy,aggressive, demanding, critical, demeaning, sickening, oh the list goes on and on...

 

He's never heard honesty. He's only heard agreement and praise. Those feel good. Honesty does not always,especially when you are not fully listening to it.

[Ronni_W]

and...people,what I think is not good. My oh my..I am untrustworthy, clingy,aggressive, demanding, critical, demeaning, sickening, oh the list goes on and on...

So what WILL it take for you to stop "bluffing" and just do what it seems you really already know you must? That is, what WILL you do if that letter doesn't end your marriage for you???

Or, put a third way, how much more pain and suffering are you willing to endure, all for the sake of these two in their totally dysfunctional relationship? (But it's also fine if you don't yet know where that point is...chances are you'll know when you hit it, anyway.)

 

I do wish you the best, regardless -- IMO, you deserve so much better than this situation is offering.

[luvstarved]

So what WILL it take for you to stop "bluffing" and just do what it seems you really already know you must? That is, what WILL you do if that letter doesn't end your marriage for you???

Or, put a third way, how much more pain and suffering are you willing to endure, all for the sake of these two in their totally dysfunctional relationship? (But it's also fine if you don't yet know where that point is...chances are you'll know when you hit it, anyway.)

 

I do wish you the best, regardless -- IMO, you deserve so much better than this situation is offering.

 

To answer your question, um, fall out of love with him? Just a guess. Maybe an inevitability.

 

Another option someone mentioned to me is to "redefine bliss"

 

I am trying to see things through my H's eyes and I believe that he really

just wants a simple peaceful life here and finds all my "needs" to be just a pain in the butt. I think that he honestly feels that it is "excessive"...he does not really understand because he is happy as long as he gets to do what he wants to do and nothing is asked of him.

 

And makes me feel that because I am not similarly content to take care of myself, in pretty much every way, then I am too "needy".

 

He really is fantastic personality wise as long as things go his way. And thinks I should be the same. I also think that he DOES NOT REALIZE how much he asks of others, as he gets snippy testy or downright angry when people don't just happily and immediately do what he wants. Then suggests that most people would, it is a simple request, why am I being so difficult?

 

As for the letter, I gave it, he read it. He had some valid counterpoints, I admit (that most of the other info I had on her regarding "knowing too much" about our relationship was from several years ago, he claims this latest conversation was an aberration but he did admit he should not have gone there with her).

 

But denied that he had any emotional dependence on her. "I am a grown man". He did agree that she will tell the world stuff so he does not like to tell her anything.

 

He also said he could understand why she got on my nerves but that expecting her to change was hopeless. I did agree with that and just said it was his interactions with her that disturbed me. He seemed to think that I was making too big of a deal because from his perspective she trashes everybody when it suits her and from his side this was a regrettable isolated incident. I have not heard her trashing others but I suppose it is possible.

 

I did ask him to understand that from my side, I hear exactly one private conversation between them and it is venomous, so would naturally be inclined to wonder if this wasn't going on all the time. He claimed not at all...and there was just a little patronizing hint from him that implied that maybe he thought I was being a little "crazy" about it all. I don't know...

 

Anyway we will see what happens. We did not get a chance to talk long because of kid activities and whatnot and tonight he has all his personal crap he does so won't get a chance tonight. Maybe this weekend...

 

Thx again for the awesome support!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!