Conversation and e-mail from Dr. Harley

[Ladyjane14]

I'm not quite sure I follow, LJ. What do you mean? Sorry. I'm dense.

 

Owl and I both laid our ears back and REJECTED "trial separation". The price of admission to the marriage was a commitment from our wayward partners to prioritize it and work on it. Anything less, and we were both willing to go directly to "Plan D"... divorce. And not the "let's be friends" kind either, but rather the "I never want to lay eyes on you again" kind.

 

As soon as our partners recommitted to the marriage, we both went to a "Plan A" stance, where we recognized that our partners were in trouble and needed our honest and sincere help. IOW, it's not a blame-game at that time where you expect for the recalcitrant spouse to magically pull himself together, straighten up, and fly right. When we're talking about otherwise good people, not mental defectives and narcissists.... waywards are a damn mess.

They're conflicted and confused, and unable to feel loved within the relationship. To expect them to "pull their weight" early on is overwhelming to them. So, we "Plan A". We join our partner's team. We soothe and comfort them. And it feels sooooo weird to nurse somebody along who's caused us such hurt and turmoil.

 

Neither Owl nor I ever had to whip out a "Plan B" where one withdraws and allows the other to feel the contrast between loving care and absence. But in cases where a wayward fails to respond to a good "Plan A", where they're consistently 'taking' and not making progress on learning to reciprocate... I can see how this sharp contrast can wake them up BEFORE all the love is gone. To my mind, "Plan B" allows us to test-drive divorce, to give our wayward a peek through that window BEFORE it's too late and we've lost all our love for them.

 

Anyway, if you're wondering why I say that the process of reconciliation strips you bare... it's because it does. Waywards may be 100% responsible for their choice to look outside the marriage, but they are RARELY more than 50% responsible for the state of the marriage prior to the cheating. Betrayed spouses end up sorting through all the collective emotional junk of years... and then recognizing their own culpability for alot more than they might have originally thought. We're forced to look through the other person's lens, a lens that's alien to us because it doesn't only represent individual personality, but gender as well.

 

The differences between men and women are MORE than outties and innies. For example, a man's view of the relationship as it pertains to sex and emotional connection is often quite different than a woman's. who would likely reorder those priorities. This extends to communications and emotional reactions as well. For a woman like me, I had to come to terms with the idea that I was treating my husband like a woman.

That's like getting a dog and treating him like a cat. Nobody's going to be happy with the outcome.

 

Through "the process" we have to take ownership of ALL our previous stinking-thinking and all our wrong-headed notions. And... we have to bare all that to the very person who hurt us. What's more, if we involved a whole bunch of other people in our drama... we get to own our sh*t for them too.

 

We can't stand on pride, because if we do, we can't SHOW our previously wayward partner that they can be understood, safe, and ACCEPTED again within the relationship, that true and equal partnership can be attained and maintained.

 

Reconciliation doesn't just explore the wayward's psyche. It maps the betrayed's as well.

[HeatherAngel]

Reconciliation doesn't just explore the wayward's psyche. It maps the betrayed's as well.

 

 

This is so, so true. Remind me LJ - did you and your husband actually separate?

 

I often feel sad that perhaps it is too late for us, despite the growth, the desire and the commitment.

[Ronni_W]

We can't stand on pride, because if we do, we can't SHOW our previously wayward partner that they can be understood, safe, and ACCEPTED again within the relationship, that true and equal partnership can be attained and maintained.

GREAT post, LJ! (I really hated to 'snip' it.) Clear, insightful, heartfelt, meaningful.

There ought to be a way to attach a huge neon sign to it, that guides all hurting and confused spouses to this spot.

[Ladyjane14]

Remind me LJ - did you and your husband actually separate?

 

Nope. That's why I think we avoided "Plan B". Right now, yours has initiated NC, so you can't really do a proper "Plan A". "Plan A" is made inherently more difficult by lack of proximity when physical separation has occurred, so once contact is reestablished, yours will need to focus on making whatever contact you do have a pleasant experience that the WS might like to repeat.

 

In alot of ways, I think once a separation has already occurred, you're almost starting from scratch. You certainly wouldn't expect a guy you met ten minutes ago at the mall or in a bar to commit himself to a relationship with you. You'd "put your best foot forward" and utilize the power of attraction to peak his interest.

 

In a separation scenario... I don't think there's anything wrong with making sure your partner knows you want him back. But you have to be firm with yourself too so as to be imparting information only and not wheedling. Because next thing you know it becomes "chasing" and that which is chased... is going to RUN.

 

 

(Thank you Ronni . I'm all embarrassed and pink in the face today though. )

[dead-dyke]

I get it now, thanks LJ -

 

I appreciate the time you spent to explain. This is such a time consuming process without ever knowing from 1 min. to the next, what the WS is thinking. Trying not to read into everything (very difficult). And worst of all waiting......... waiting........... wondering, are they going to respond or start moving closer. When they are not in visual/audio proximity, the days seem like years. The weeks like decades. The second thoughts, ... everything.

 

I would have no choice but to start new. If she is willing that is. I have accepted the 'D' but, she seems to be putting off the delivery of 'being served'. Things she has said, has gotten me thinking. Now it's not seeming so cut and dry. I guess patience, which I have only learned since separation, is required.

[TrustInYourself]

I feel better reading that. Thank you.

[GreenEyedLady]

I think I have to jump in here.

 

While it's good to be hopeful, you have to be realistic too.

 

I left my XH for various reasons (emotional abuse, etc). But when I left, that was it. I tried to fix the M while I was in it and when I left, that was the end.

 

I didn't care that he was the father of my children or the man I chose to marry. I made a mistake choosing him.

 

LJ, I respect your advice very much. But you have never been divorced. You don't know the mind set. You don't realize how someone feels when they are done. You wanted your M and you wanted to work on it and so did your H.

 

I'm sorry this might hurt some of the posters here, but sometimes the other MP wants a divorce. And there is nothing you can do to change their mind, no matter if they tell you if you do this, this and this.

 

Focus on yourself and your children. Become who you want to be. I don't think that it is beneficial for you to hear that your W/H may come back if you do 1, 2, 3 and it's not balanced with the other side.

 

Maybe they will come back. But would you even want them?

 

GEL

[Ladyjane14]

 

LJ, I respect your advice very much. But you have never been divorced. You don't know the mind set. You don't realize how someone feels when they are done.

 

You don't know my complete history, Gel. And I'm not willing to get into the details... but I very much DO know "the mind set". This has not been my first rodeo.

[TrustInYourself]

I think I have to jump in here.

 

While it's good to be hopeful, you have to be realistic too.

 

I left my XH for various reasons (emotional abuse, etc). But when I left, that was it. I tried to fix the M while I was in it and when I left, that was the end.

 

I didn't care that he was the father of my children or the man I chose to marry. I made a mistake choosing him.

 

LJ, I respect your advice very much. But you have never been divorced. You don't know the mind set. You don't realize how someone feels when they are done. You wanted your M and you wanted to work on it and so did your H.

 

I'm sorry this might hurt some of the posters here, but sometimes the other MP wants a divorce. And there is nothing you can do to change their mind, no matter if they tell you if you do this, this and this.

 

Focus on yourself and your children. Become who you want to be. I don't think that it is beneficial for you to hear that your W/H may come back if you do 1, 2, 3 and it's not balanced with the other side.

 

Maybe they will come back. But would you even want them?

 

GEL

 

Hah, I would love to have a straight up answer so I could move on with my life. Trust me it's not so cut and dry. Not everyone has it so simple.

 

I have to cut my heart out and ignore her to live my life. I have to smile while doing it. I have to know that I lose my daughter for 50% of her life growing up. I accept. I might as well accept cutting my legs off and just do that too.

 

All the while thinking that maybe we could have worked through it. I guess I'll never know. But that's okay right! That's cool. Life goes on.

[SingleDad]

My W has the mindset that GEL has - and has no plans of changing it.

 

Any positive communication I say to W gets completely inverted by W and get spit back in my face how aweful it was to be with me. W has only bad memories. I think my W is depressed. Her life is not what she planned. Daughter is not as easy as she dreamed. I did not meet her needs and dreams.

 

LJ - Yes - I was having a bad day in my last post.

 

Maybe this is a positive step. Realizing that I do not need W in my life. I do not even want her the way she has been over the past year... I'd be happy enough with the person I know in 6 of the past 7 years. But I do not know if she will change back to the way she was. Even before she blamed her life on me she would complain about wanting to change jobs, paint the room, change the sconce, etc. W was never really content with status quo.

 

I am starting to think that my W needs to experience that she is not happy living on her own, nor happy with people she might date. And if she does find happiness for months or years with someone else - I am toast. But without her changing her mindset from her own experiences - I do not see me being able to do much of anything - I think I can only sit back and wait months without much to say or do. Because when I do - it takes backwards steps.

 

I will still continue to read books and yes I will keep some hope that a miracle will happen on its own - I'll keep the milk out on the doorstep as LJ says.

 

 

But now my big question is - do I do anything for our 4th anniversary on Aug 21. At a minimum, I want to mail an anniversary card with simply my signature to let her know I remembered... Yet before Fri dinner, I had planned on doing more - sending her a dozen roses and a personal "love" letter - she always wanted a love letter for our anniversary - but would it backfire now?

 

Something like "I have learned that I do not need you in my life... Instead I want you in my life, I miss you, I love you..." I have started to write something but it is at home - I can type it here later if posters sugggest it.

 

Thanks, SingleDad

[TrustInYourself]

What would be the point of the note? What would that accomplish?

 

How are things for you anyways? I want closure from this. Not sure that I'm willing to be patient and alone. It's hard.

[SingleDad]

No such thing as closure when our 2 yo daughter's mother is still in their lives...then the W or XW will always be on ours.

[TrustInYourself]

Exactly, but I want to be able to live life for myself instead of constantly thinking about her and what's going to happen with our marriage.

 

I need peace of mind. I need emotional clarity.

 

If I'm waiting for her, I'm always wondering what's going on, what is she feeling. Is she seeing someone else. Why doesn't she want to be with me if we are still married and not divorced.

 

If we are divorced, she can have what makes her happy and that makes me happy. I can finally relax and live my life. Even without her, because I know I can do it.

 

I'm still not sure I want to force it though. I don't want to be the one because I didn't want this. But at some point, my heart and mind are going to be so shattered, that my actions will reflect that.

[SingleDad]

Today W e-mailed me today asking who did my lasic eye surgery a few years back ? I responded only to her question.

 

Fri - During the 40th bday dinner night - she asked about politics - who won the democratic nomination- how did Hillary lose ? .... I know she absolutely hates politics. I just thought about this now... was this a faint attempt toward small talk, bringing up a topic she could care less about ?

 

Sat am - asked how to start the rototiller which she borrowed and what gas to use... (wouldn't need to ask me if she has boyfriend)... then mentioned she won't be using it today anyway (huh?)

 

Sat - W called after our daughter was sleeping to ask the specific name of the color of our kitchen (which she cannot paint her own kitchen until she closes on her house - and the stores were closed). Then wished me a happy birthday. Was the purpose of the call to wish me a happy birthday or to know the exact color of our kitchen ?

 

Sun - I called W so daughter could say good night. W said "thank you" to me

 

See the connection will be there as long as there is a child involved...

 

Is this W just maintaining the "friend" part ? or does she just want to remind me of her? or to torment me ?

 

This is why I have trouble not leaving some hope alive for us. Even if the conversation is 10 seconds... seems like there is some connection on most days.

 

Seems like she has some dependency on needing someone to talk to - yet desperate for her own independence and privacy and decision making power - that she would claim she didn't have in marriage (she did have most say in the issues)

[TrustInYourself]

Today W e-mailed me today asking who did my lasic eye surgery a few years back ? I responded only to her question.

 

Fri - During the 40th bday dinner night - she asked about politics - who won the democratic nomination- how did Hillary lose ? .... I know she absolutely hates politics. I just thought about this now... was this a faint attempt toward small talk, bringing up a topic she could care less about ?

 

Sat am - asked how to start the rototiller which she borrowed and what gas to use... (wouldn't need to ask me if she has boyfriend)... then mentioned she won't be using it today anyway (huh?)

 

Sat - W called after our daughter was sleeping to ask the specific name of the color of our kitchen (which she cannot paint her own kitchen until she closes on her house - and the stores were closed). Then wished me a happy birthday. Was the purpose of the call to wish me a happy birthday or to know the exact color of our kitchen ?

 

Sun - I called W so daughter could say good night. W said "thank you" to me

 

See the connection will be there as long as there is a child involved...

 

Is this W just maintaining the "friend" part ? or does she just want to remind me of her? or to torment me ?

 

This is why I have trouble not leaving some hope alive for us. Even if the conversation is 10 seconds... seems like there is some connection on most days.

 

Seems like she has some dependency on needing someone to talk to - yet desperate for her own independence and privacy and decision making power - that she would claim she didn't have in marriage (she did have most say in the issues)

 

My wife does the same thing. I get her back for a week when I turn on the "good" me. If I ignore her, she really starts to know what life is without me.

 

Plan B her ass man. You deserve better.

[SingleDad]

TIY - the interactions to not win my W back... more whether we are friendly or enemies..... It will take months or years for any change in attitude from her.

 

Just seems strange - she fought so hard for her freedom, now she just to want to be friendly as soon as she got what she wanted - and I am supposed to get along with her as friends and not ever expect her to be my wife (though she still is legally).

 

Strange place to be... enemies will not help anyone. Friends without expectations of anything more is hard when we are still married and I want to stay married (at least to the person I knew before this other person came along and demanded a divorce).

 

I am learning to let go of my hopes and dreams for a marriage and just get along for our daughters sake - though there is a gaping whole in my life and body

[TrustInYourself]

That hole is preventing you from living. Fill it. That's what I have to do. Live life. Stop being incomplete. That is the key to being happy. With or without our wives. We have to be happy for ourselves and for our beautiful daughters.

[SingleDad]

TIY - you know that is easier said than done... I was at a church family picnic on Sun watching my daughter run around.... so much of me was just thinking - I shouldn't be here - this isn't a family - this family isn't complete.

 

I have yet to fully grasp that this is a family - just a redefined family of 2.

 

I have yet to fully accept that this is my new life. That I am a SingleDad and that I do not have a spouse and I only am allowed to see my daughter 3 nights each week.

[TrustInYourself]

A family of 2 just for right now.

[onward]

SD, I'm in much the same boat. You can read my thread elsewhere, and it has been about 4 months without much change. Almost a year since the bomb got dropped on my [then] sorry azz. We are now going through the [collaborative] divorce, still living together. Recently the wife has "secretly" gone out on at least one date that I know about (trying to find her next mark no doubt). I spent much of January through March as a needy wreck, hoping she would change her mind, and in May I started advancing the ball.

 

Because of the document we recently signed in entering the collaborative divorce process, and for the sake of my DD5, I've resisted throwing the wife out. Our 7th Anniversary is next week, I'm planning on doing nothing. In fact, a business trip has come up and I'm not batting an eye about being gone. I recommend to you to do nothing -- do not even send a note -- not a word. She knows you want her back, stop chasing her that clearly doesn't work... Let her miss you, but don't be surprised if she doesn't. She calls to find out why you didn't? tell her you got busy.

 

Your post (#35 on this thread) has some of the right attitude (IMHO). Later on, in a couple of the other posts, you again come across as very needy.

 

In my situation, tonight, Mr reality will be paying the wife a visit. In our 4 way this evening she will find out that "no, you can't stay in the house -- no, I'm not interested in alternating in our house every other week (aka nesting.)" "You've made your choices and you can't have it both ways." She's known all along that leaving me meant leaving her lifestyle, and she just needs to get on with it and accept that.

 

Right now, while there is no desire in her for "us", and while she is just depressed, angry, and feeling trapped... not to mention starting dates and beach outings on the side -- there's simply no point in me chasing her and piddling my pants.

 

I may sound cavalier, but trust me, like you I go through ups and downs weekly. However, life is just 10 times more enjoyable when I'm in the "we're done" mode then when I'm in the "please please come back" mode. I took the anger, hurt, etc. and went Count of Monte Cristo with it -- rose like a pheonix. I'll post on my own thread in a week or two, but I'm very proud of myself at the moment.

 

By the way, I've noticed that when wife has shown *any* positive interest in me or my well being, it is always a prelude to a conversation about something that she wants or needs. It is always a ruse, a reason to talk, a warm up act for making her life easier -- in other words, disingenuous interest. I'm done falling for that fake stuff.

 

I want someone who cares about me, values me, appreciates me -- for real, not in a fake plastic way.

 

I'm not sure how much time you get with your DD, but I've noticed that my time with mine is ten times more enjoyable when the wife is not around! Imagine that!

 

So, wife has done all of us a favor. If she decides to try to reconcile and I'm still available, then we may give it another try. If not, that's ok too.

 

I still have plenty of down days, but I'm also starting to see the light, and I believe that you will too. We each have our own timelines for this healing phase -- my friends and family couldn't believe that I held on to this lost dream for almost a year... But you know what, eventually we start to move on.

 

Take care buddy,

 

- Onward

[TrustInYourself]

Sweet post. Thanks for the insight. I need to know there is light at the end of the tunnel even without reconciliation. Thanks.

[GreenEyedLady]

Hah, I would love to have a straight up answer so I could move on with my life. Trust me it's not so cut and dry. Not everyone has it so simple.

 

I have to cut my heart out and ignore her to live my life. I have to smile while doing it. I have to know that I lose my daughter for 50% of her life growing up. I accept. I might as well accept cutting my legs off and just do that too.

 

All the while thinking that maybe we could have worked through it. I guess I'll never know. But that's okay right! That's cool. Life goes on.

 

You don't have to cut your heart out, you just have to change it.

 

You don't have to smile while doing it.

 

You simply have to get through this rough time and trudge forward.

 

And maybe you can work through it. But the other partner has to want to. And no one can make anyone else do anything.

 

Life goes on. Sadly, life marches on no matter what befalls us. But why waste even another minute of that life? See your M for what it really is/was. What would you change about it?

 

For if you reconcile, YOU too have a say in what it is to look like. Because you can't go back to the way it was, that's what got you here.

 

((HUGS))

 

GEL

[TrustInYourself]

Mmmm... I like your advice. I feel stronger reading it. Even if it's like a slap in the face.

 

((HUG!)) haha.

[GreenEyedLady]

Mmmm... I like your advice. I feel stronger reading it. Even if it's like a slap in the face.

 

((HUG!)) haha.

 

LOL...

 

Sorry, I can't help but be straightforward.

 

And I really just want to help you find your own way.

 

GEL