Thought I knew what I want

[Ronni_W]

I could always give it another try, and if it doesnt work out, I could always go back to the single lifestyle, no? I mean, I still have time. 21 years old is not that old.

 

OUCH! Seriously, that one pained me to read. Well, pained me on behalf of your ex-girlfriend. Joe, can you even begin to see how little you care about her emotional health and well-being?

 

Imagine if someone was thinking in those terms, about you. "Ah, wtf - it's just Joe. I can always go back to him anytime. And if that doesn't work out I'll just dump his ass AGAIN. Who cares about Joe, and his feelings, and his personal wants and needs? I still have time to feck around with his heart. I'm not that old."

 

I would hate if someone thought like that about you, Joe. It would make me sad. I would feel obligated to defend you against that.

 

 

I know I'm in charge of my thoughts, but like, when I'm sad, II can't just decide to be happy instead.

 

If you heard, "When you're sad just decide to be happy instead," then I did an extremely piss-poor job of talking about taking responsibility for one's own feelings and thoughts, and it's highly unlikely that I'm going to do a better job if I try again. Might I suggest you try this free online book on 'emotional intelligence' instead: http://eqi.org/eqe96_1.htm

 

Well, no. I believe the woman in the relationship has to not only care for her man's emotional and sexual needs, but to also cook, clean, and make sure he's completely happy with her.

 

Good one...you are tooo funny! But do you kinda see how your attitude of, "I'll just dick her around as I see fit" kind of DOES support this 'humourous' view much more than it does not?

 

I always knew that both people in a relationship have to work at making it work. I don't know, maybe somewhere along the way I forgot that. Maybe I got too comfortable.

 

I'm not talking about the past. I'm talking about currently...today! It was TODAY that you typed, basically, ""I'll just go back-and-forth with her heart until I've satisfied all my own yearnings and desires."

You didn't even give one thought to how such actions on your part might impact/negatively affect (HURT!) her. You didn't, because if you had, you could not have left that sentence on the 'page'.

 

In the past, yes, you had the joint responsibility to keep your relationship positive, fun and growth-inspiring. You also failed yourself by arriving at your own conclusions instead of discussing/hearing her side. (I'm thinking of what you thought she'd think if you went clubbing with your mates once in a while.) You decided for her what she would think -- and that is a "highly flawed" thing to do in any relationship.

 

It's just that the lifestyle of a 'playboy' is very appealing to me. The partying, the not caring, the being happy, the girls, the herpes . I know I'm stupid though, which is why it's almost like an internal struggle with myself.

You know, if there is only one thing that you are NOT, it is "stupid". You are not stupid! But yes, it is EXACTLY an internal struggle that is going on. Every big life decision is accompanied by one of those...and all the little decisions, as well, we just don't pay so much attention to them. Beer or a martini? That's an internal struggle that we don't even notice as such. It is not "stupid"...it is LIFE!

 

I know that you keep thinking-saying that having the freedom to not care about the girls with herpes is going to make you happy. But. In the 5 months since you've been broken up...how much of the "being happy" have you actually experienced, Joe?

 

What if your IDEAS about that 'playboy lifestyle' are "highly flawed"? What if your beliefs and perceptions about it are inaccurate, misguided, incomplete or just plain wrong?

I mean, are you also brainstorming from that angle? - assessing the evidence that you've collected in the past 5 months and trying to figure out if there is any highly flawed logic in your old beliefs and thought patterns?

Edited November 5, 2009 by Ronni_W
grammar

[joemax]

Joe, can you even begin to see how little you care about her emotional health and well-being?

 

Ok, the way I put it sounded really bad. I do care about her. I've envisioned my life in the future with her. She's always in a good mood, no matter what. I want that around me for a long time to come. It's just that I'm trying so hard to be happy, I guess that blinds my judgment sometimes. Scratch that, it blinds my judgment a LOT of the time.

 

 

 

 

But do you kinda see how your attitude of, "I'll just dick her around as I see fit" kind of DOES support this 'humourous' view much more than it does not?

 

Yes. Have I mentioned that I don't like myself? Ok that's a lie. I like myself, I just don't like myself when I think like that.

 

 

 

In the 5 months since you've been broken up...how much of the "being happy" have you actually experienced, Joe?

 

Tough question. I was happy. I was happy with the way people viewed me. I was happy being careless, being able to do whatever I wanted. I wasn't happy being alone at night. I wasn't happy missing her. I still wanted to spend time with her.

 

 

 

 

What if your IDEAS about that 'playboy lifestyle' are "highly flawed"? What if your beliefs and perceptions about it are inaccurate, misguided, incomplete or just plain wrong?

 

What do you mean?

 

 

What I do know is that I think she has feelings for that guy. She wouldn't have kissed him if she didn't. And I don't know if I can be with someone who has feelings for someone else. Then again, I shouldn't even be passing judgment on what she did. I'm not in that position. I'm just talking.

 

I wish I was smarter in our relationship. I did always pick her up late from work. I woke up early to drive her the places she needed to be. I tried, but I guess my attempts were in the wrong place.

[Ronni_W]

[your attitude of, "I'll just dick her around as I see fit"]

Have I mentioned that I don't like myself? Ok that's a lie. I like myself, I just don't like myself when I think like that.

 

Well, like I said earlier. You are in charge of your own thoughts...which also makes you the ONLY person who can control/stop yourself from thinking in ways that make you dislike yourself.

But. You went for the "I'm powerless to change it but wish I could" victim mentality instead, remember?

 

I do care about her. I've envisioned my life in the future with her. She's always in a good mood, no matter what. I want that around me for a long time to come.

 

Yep. I get that you care a great deal about what she can GIVE to you and CONTRIBUTE to your life, as far as you feeling happy, content, loved, secure, safe, accepted, respected, admired, wanted, etc., etc.

But I don't really get that you think too much about what YOU can give and contribute to her feelings of happiness, security, safety, etc.

It's just that I'm trying so hard to be happy, I guess that blinds my judgment ... a LOT of the time.

 

That's just more BS, Joe; more "highly flawed logic". You're telling yourself that it is okay to act self-centred/narcissistic, and to not worry about how your attitudes, words and actions can hurt others...as long as you are in pursuit of your own happiness. It's a crap cop-out for acting inconsiderately. You ARE responsible for, and do have to also consider, the potential impact (negative as well as positive) that your words and actions could have.

 

If you're not considering it; if you are just excusing it, then you are not genuinely caring about her (or anyone, or anything else.)

 

 

[in the 5 months...how much of the "being happy" have you actually experienced]

I was happy. I was happy with the way people viewed me. I was happy being careless, being able to do whatever I wanted.

 

Then you need to stay single, IMO [because] that is what is making you happy and you do deserve to be as happy as possible. The aspects that you dislike are just the price of admission into the 'playboy lifestyle'.

There is ALWAYS a cost, ALWAYS a trade-off. That is Life. You cannot expect to be able to have and enjoy the benefits of being both a playboy and, concurrently, a non-playboy.

 

 

[What if your IDEAS about that 'playboy lifestyle' are "highly flawed"?]

What do you mean?

 

No, it's fine. Living that lifestyle makes you feel happy (see above), so that would indicate that your beliefs about it were/are accurate for what you most want out of life at this stage.

 

I wish I was smarter in our relationship. I did always pick her up late from work. I woke up early to drive her the places she needed to be. I tried, but I guess my attempts were in the wrong place.

Yeah...no. That's all just coming from an "I'm so helpless and powerless but I tried so hard but I guess it wasn't enough" victim mentality, too.

Boo-hoo...here's a tissue.

 

I do feel your pain and confusion. And I appreciate that you have been struggling and doing your damndest best to learn, grown and make wise choices. And I admire and respect how much you've put into it. And I see you as powerful in your own life. I cannot, in good conscious, walk down 'Victim Avenue' with you. Can't, won't. Fair enough?

 

Hugs, Joe. I know these are difficult things to have to get clear on, and tough, self-defining decisions that you're in process of making.

[joemax]

But. You went for the "I'm powerless to change it but wish I could" victim mentality instead, remember?

 

No, I didn't. But learning to control my thoughts and emotions isn't something I can learn overnight, but I'm slowly and steadily learning to at least affect them in a way that will impact me positively.

 

 

 

But I don't really get that you think too much about what YOU can give and contribute to her feelings of happiness, security, safety, etc.

 

I do care about her feelings. Seeing her cry doesn't exactly make me happy. I pick her up from work so she doesn't have to take the bus in the cold. I walk her to school so she doesn't have to walk alone at night. I like to think that I did make her happy in the 2 years and a half we were together.

 

 

You're telling yourself that it is okay to act self-centred/narcissistic, and to not worry about how your attitudes, words and actions can hurt others...as long as you are in pursuit of your own happiness.

 

It's not like I do it on purpose. Whenever we're together, I do try to make her happy. I like to think my company makes her happy just like her company makes me happy.

 

What I'm trying to figure out is why it's killing me that she's at work right now. Is it cause I know that guy is also there and I'm jealous? Is it 'cause I'm scared of losing her? sMaybe it's like you said, I still have feelings about her? Maybe it's 'cause I still love her? I'm trying to figure it out.

[brokenrightnow]

Joereading your emails-- you are just like my ex-boygfrined/boyfriend.I dont even know what he is anymore. He loves me. He would give his life for me. He can't live without me.Yet...he is not happy with me. It is driving me crazy!!! It hurts Joe, what you are doing is awful. I am hurting, your poor girl is hurting. I am sure she is masking her pain, telling you she is OK, because she is just tired of telling you she is not OK...she is only saying it because she is tired of the drama. Lying to you, just to make it easier for you. at the end it is pointless, you are only being selfish.I know her pain, i am feeling it now. being in love with a man that is not HAPPY WITH HIMSELF! she is not the problem - it is you! your emotional instability. Seek help, find the root of the problem because I promise you, it is in there somewhere. If you love her, man up and make it work. Work at it. Make her smile, make her laugh, make her proud of having you in her life. don't kill her with your pathetic attempt at trying to figure this crap out. Because you are not figuring anything out sitting here infront of the computer. Go out and buy her flowers, book a trip to the city acroos town. make her breakfast. Do something FOR HER! and see how that makes you feel, if her smile doesn't trap you and make your feet come off the ground, then that is your answer-- you are not in love with her and you never were.

[Ronni_W]

I do care about her feelings.

It's not like I do it on purpose.

What I'm trying to figure out is...

Joe,

I'm thinking that, after you respond to brokenrightnow's post, maybe it'll give us something new to work with. At least, with any luck it'll do that.

 

brokenrightnow, thank you for sharing -- I'm sure that it will help Joe so that he does not continue to hurt his ex-girlfriend as your ex is doing to you. I'm sorry that you're hurting.

 

Hugs to you both.

[joemax]

Sorry for the long time it took me to reply, sometimes this place gets too 'real' for me.

 

We kept seeing each other more and more until mid december, until she wanted to stop seeing each other for a while. 3 days after we stopped seeing each other, I found out that she had made out with the same guy - this time at work and sober.

 

I did not take it well. I figured I was about to lose her for good. It did not feel good.

 

She said she only did it 'cause she didn't think I cared. She wanted to know what it felt like to kiss another guy.

 

I was so angry at her. I know I shouldn't have been cause I'd done worse but we were trying to work on things and I felt so betrayed that she did that. I still do.

 

She said she wants to be with me. Still saying that.

 

We're seeing each other more. The urge to be single and see other women is not as strong as it used to be, so I can only imagine that that's a good thing?

 

And I do try to do things for her. I've been waking up at 6 in the morning once a week to drive her to work. I drive her places all the time. I bought her her tattoo that she's been wanting for 2 years. I spent Christmas with her family to make her happy. I enjoyed myself too.

 

brokenrightnow, I'm sorry that you're hurting. And it's never my intention to hurt anybody, especially a girl like her. I've been so happy the past 2 weeks having her in my life. I just hope the bad side of me doesn't come out and this keeps on.

Edited January 6, 2010 by joemax

[joemax]

Last week, I saw a text from him on her phone and he said "OH AND SINCE YOUR BF IS GONA BE READING THIS, HELLOOOOO BF!". (I didn't go through her phone, she was right next to me and allowed me to see it)

 

Anyways, for the past 10 days or so, she's been texting him, they've been talking a lot on msn, and i fount out today that 2 nights ago, he walked her home.

 

I was pretty pissed, but she assured me that they're just friends.

 

I just have so much trouble trusting her, last time he walked her home they made out, and she admitted to deleting a text message she sent him so i didn't see it.

 

And tonight, there is a work outing and they're hanging out. I haven't spoken to her since this afternoon ( when i found out about the walking home thing) and im going crazy imagining what they might be doing. what do I do ? should I call her? she knows IT ABSOLUTELY KILLS ME when they talk to each other, and there she is right now getting drunk with him and god knows what else. she hasn't even called me to tell me that nothing is going on.

 

Am I wrong to be angry? Am I wrong to be jealous? Am I wrong that I think she's bring a bit selfish because she knows how much it bothers me and she's still off getting drunk with him?

 

I guess I'm just gona go to sleep and try to forget. Ronni, or anybody else, if you have a minute to help, I would greatly appreciate it. Thank you so much.

[Perhaps]

Know a lot of guys who've been in your position. It's a 50/50 chance. But if you want my opinion, I think you're just getting restless. Being in a relationship shouldn't eclipse your individual identity - you can still go out, meet with friends, make new ones, travel, etc. A good relationship is supposed to compliment the happiness you already have.

 

You said it yourself: you wanted this for ~18 years and now that you have it, you're thinking of throwing it all away. I personally think you're taking this for granted.

 

You're 20 and maybe you're starting to think that you need to plan out a career, meet new girls, flirt around, be single - blah blah blah. You were single for 18 years, you had chances to flirt with girls then as well. From what you've said, it seems that you've wanted a relationship and now that you have it, your happiness has made you confident. This confidence that you have has grown from your relationship. Make sure that if you throw it away, the confidence doesn't go away either. There may come a point, if you leave her, that no matter how many girls you meet, you may think to yourself that none are as sweet as her. Looks aren't everything - hell, they're a very small fraction compared to what companionship should be about.

 

I think your age and stage in life are nudging you to leave for the "greener" grass but what I'm trying to say is that think of how you felt when you first met her, when she came into your life - how thankful you were.

 

If you break up, and you look back and think to yourself why you broke up with her, what would you say to yourself?

 

 

I do want you to really think before you make a decision you may regret. You sound like a nice guy who is just sidetracked, that's why I gave you a lecture.

 

I'll conclude by quoting Russell Peters: "Be a man. Do the right thing."

Edited February 7, 2010 by Perhaps

[Ronni_W]

Hey Joe.

To me it sounds as if she's about done being all patient and understanding with you.

It's a consequence of how you've been treating her these past two years (it's been pretty much 2 years, right?)

 

You've been wanting to eat your cake but still have the whole cake. And she is done with it. Fed-up with your attitude and behaviour towards her.

Can you honestly blame her?

 

No, of course you do NOT have the privilege of feeling angry or jealous. That's just crazy-talk. You brought this entire situation onto yourself...and onto her. She had no say in the matter of how you ended up treating her and behaving.

 

She's about done with you. I'm seeing this as your FINAL opportunity to decide what you want. You either stop seeing her altogether (strict no contact from now to forever), or you recommit to her 100%.

 

You cannot have it both ways like some spoiled-brat child. You cannot eat your cake and have it, too.

 

Sorry to be harsh with you, Joe. But you're effing-up your own life over there...and not taking the slightest bit of responsibility for doing it to yourself.

 

No, OF COURSE you do not have the privilege of feeling angry or jealous.

You have the self-obligation to make some serious decisions. And, if you do choose to recommit to her 100%, then part of that is you promising to keep your word to her. That means being 100% involved in giving her your very best, and creating a MUTUALLY supportive and uplifting relationship with her...and ONLY with her. It means you giving up your "needs and wants" about other women.

 

If you prefer to keep your needs and wants about other women, then that is you promising yourself to stop seeing her altogether (strict no contact from now to forever)...and then you need to keep your word to yourself.

 

Time to grow up and make an adult decision about this, yes? Long PAST time, in fact. You can't just keep stringing another human being along, the way you have been her. That is cruel and inhumane, Joe. Stop acting like that.

[joemax]

No, OF COURSE you do not have the privilege of feeling angry or jealous.

 

Why not? Does it not show disprespect and selfishness on her part that she's out with that guy even though she knows how much it bothers me?

 

 

You can't just keep stringing another human being along, the way you have been her. That is cruel and inhumane, Joe. Stop acting like that.

 

Since Halloween I've been telling her that I wana be with her and only her! I haven't been stringing her along. She's been the one that's been unsure lately, what did I do?

 

And on saturday night, my fears were confirmed. She kissed another guy (although she said it was just a tiny peck) and a girl too. What does that tell me? And she only called me at 4 in the morning hysterical and wasted telling me to pick her up.

[Ronni_W]

No, OF COURSE you do not have the privilege of feeling angry or jealous.

Why not? Does it not show disrespect and selfishness on her part that she's out with that guy even though she knows how much it bothers me?

 

No, Joe. That is your selfish desire for her to only do what you want her to do and so that YOU can stay feeling good-happy-content. You can't control and manipulate what and how other people do through your feelings, wants or needs. You don't get to feel "bothered" (hurt) by some action that she decides to take to advance her own growth and development. That's pointing to a false belief on your side. About this, she's not doing anything "selfish" or "disrespectful", not in the slightest.

 

She's been the one that's been unsure lately, what did I do?

 

Welcome to her world that she's been living the past 2 years.

I guess you're going to have to do for her now, what she did for you in the past -- give her the understanding, patience and space that she apparently now needs, so that she can have different experiences and make up her own mind about what she really wants.

 

She kissed another guy...and a girl too. What does that tell me?

I don't know what message you will interpret from it. I interpret that she's ready to do her own bit of "living on the wild side." It was okay for you to do...and it is okay for her to do. She's being honest with you, so it's not "disrespectful" in that sense, either. She's just doing what you've already done, Joe. It is what you needed to do for yourself, it's what she needs to do for herself. Get over yourself and any feelings of hurt, anger, jealousy, etc. They are not appropriate for the situation.

 

It could also be taken as confirmation of my earlier observation that she's just about done with you and, yes, is even stringing you along at this point. Welcome to her world of the past 2 years.

 

And she only called me at 4 in the morning hysterical and wasted telling me to pick her up.

 

This is the only piece over which you have any appropriate say or genuine power, Joe. You get to decide if you want to (continue to) be her taxi-driver. If not, tell her AHEAD of time. Don't leave her stranded anywhere as that puts her at risk of being physically harmed.

If you do decide to stay on in the role, it won't, however, give you any rights or way to control and manipulate her [because] she's going to do what she's going to do even if you complain about it.

 

She's responsible for meeting her own needs, taking care of her own wants and dreams, and getting herself out of her own confusion. Just like you are, yes? Her feelings are for her to deal with, and your feelings are for you to deal with.

 

All of that said. Yes, of course it also does suck. It's never a good thing to feel hurt/bothered but it is a part of life, love and relationships.

I'm sorry you're hurting, Joe.

[starwolf242]

Joe, Ronni I love you guys! I've read all 15 pages of this post and both of you have helped me so much!

 

Joe - I'm 24 and the 20 year old love of my life left me 2 months ago because he had new found confidence (courtesy of being with me) and has decided I wasn't offering him enough, that he wasn't sure if he loved me (we were looking to move in together and he was taking me to look at engagement rings), and that he wanted to try new things. We had a pretty rough week before we split and he later confessed he started to get feelings for a female friend of his who had fancied him for a long time during this week. Now he either left me for her or got with her pretty immediately to avoid the lonely nights you experienced after we split up.

 

He is my first love and if i knew for sure he was coming back I would happily wait for him to find whatever experiences he is after. But, it kills me that he is with this other girl and seems to have completely forgotten about me after a year of being together and only 1 rough patch. I love him so much that him not wanting to be with me has made me question my worth. But reading what you've written has helped me understand what goes through 20 yr old male minds.

 

Ronni - You are like a relationship guru. Tbh you should be charging for this stuff! I think I need the same help you've given Joe. I need an outside voice to help me find my inner voice. Would you mind helping?

[Ronni_W]

Ronni ... I think I need the same help you've given Joe. I need an outside voice to help me find my inner voice. Would you mind helping?

starwolf,

Thank you so much for your kind words

I'm not sure if I've "helped" Joe as much as just been a sounding board for him to bounce his thoughts off, get feedback on, and reflect on all of it again.

 

Of course I'd be happy to offer you the same...as I'm sure other LSers will, as well. I'll look for your thread, or you can message me if you prefer. (To access the message system, though, you need to hit a certain number of posts [i think around 50 or 60] or be a paid member, which is reasonably priced.)

 

Anyway, I'll catch you in your own thread. In the meantime, hugs and best

[Ninita]

Why don't you just break up with her and let her go?

You'll probably regret it horribly but the way things are now you are being unfair to her and eroding the whole basis of the relationship which you had before, which means that it may well not work anyway, even if you now decide to stay with her. Acting like you do now, you'll actually probably already lost her.

I'm saying this because when I was in my teens I did the same to a boyfriend. I regretted it, we got back together but the relationship was ruined. I still regret it, although I also think I was too young to settle back then so maybe it was for the best.

[joemax]

starwolf - I am so sorry for your pain. They should honestly make commercials warning against relationships. They have ones for drunk driving, drugs, etc etc. MAKE ONES FOR BEING IN A RELATIONSHIP WHEN YOU'RE YOUNG, DAMIT!

 

Well, we had been seeing each other for the past 2 months or so, and things were seemingly going well.

 

But last night, she said it'd be better for us if we broke it off. She's leaving for a year to Europe (leaving in May) and said that if we stop seeing each other now, it's gona be easier for us.

 

She said this was 'beneficial' for us. She doesn't want me to see it as a bad thing. But if we love each other enough, this separation will be good for the both of us.

 

I guess this is where no contact starts? I hate this. I hate knowing that I can't call her when I need her, that I can't hold her in my arms again, that I can't see her smiling again. But I guess I'll try to focus on other things and try to control my thoughts...