karma, maybe

[sunshinegirl]

Preamble to what I really want to say: I guess we never know what karma is ever going to be visited upon those exes who were particularly cruel in leaving us (lying, cheating, etc). And ultimately it is not healthy to become obsessed with it. I know that. CaliGuy posted in another thread how forgiveness really seems to be a key to moving on. I want to move toward forgiveness. I may be taking baby steps there.

 

But it's possible karma is already being visited upon my ex. It turns out that his ex-wife not only got remarried in June (the news of her getting remarried just 2 months after their divorce was finalized seems to have been the catalyst of his freakout, cheating, and leaving me)...but she is pregnant and due in November! Doing the math, this means she was preggers well before the final divorce decree was issued.

 

I have to imagine this is a double whammy to him. On top of, actually, the fact that his daughter sometimes accidentally calls him by the name of her step-father, and that the daughter regularly talks lovingly about her two brothers (step-brothers).

 

It is almost enough to make me feel sorry for him. It must feel awful to lose your family like that, to be cheated on and rejected by your own wife, and then to have to see her move on so obviously and so happily without you, and with the Other Man.

 

The thing is, he wouldn't acknowledge, to himself or to me, the depth of this trauma and hurt. He'll claim all the live long day that he's fine and happy... but he hasn't dealt with his losses. I got caught in the crossfire, big time, and he was selfish and cruel to me out of his own pain. But the story of his life is ultimately about much bigger pains than the ones he delivered to my doorstep, and it's about bigger things than the hooch (who is likely to also receive some of his pain eventually). And maybe considering the broad sorry arch of his life I can extend some empathy and eventually forgiveness to him.

 

We'll see.

[Trialbyfire]

Regardless if you can forgive the other party, everyone needs to forgive themselves for having invested in someone who didn't have their best interests at heart.

 

Once you've forgiven yourself, it's far easier to forgive someone else.

[sunshinegirl]

Oy. Very good point. I am very upset with myself for letting myself become his rebound, his "transitional woman". I somehow chose not to see it even when it stared me in the face.

[sunshinegirl]

Wanna know an embarrassing piece of truth on all this?

 

I was a virgin before Eric. At 33. It had been for religious/faith reasons but in a different long story that I won't go into here, I no longer hold the same convictions around sex/abstinence. So I had told myself, not long before starting to spend time with Eric, that I would let my next relationship proceed to whatever felt right, good, appropriate.

 

Then Eric shows up on the scene and we have, basically, naked animal lust for each other. Maddeningly hot chemistry. After our first kiss, I walked inside and slid down to the floor because my knees were wobbling so much.

 

And my thinking brain, I think, just went into "hibernate" mode. I knew from the starting gate that he didn't communicate well and wasn't yet divorced and had a kid and...these were flags any idiot could see and pay attention to. But I was so attracted to him and for the first time in my life I had given myself permission to have sex...so I went for it. (The relationship, that is. We didn't have sex til 3 months later.)

 

That's what's upsetting me about my own behavior. For the first time ever in my life I let my lust take over my brain.

[Trialbyfire]

So when are you going to forgive yourself for being human?

[sunshinegirl]

NEVER! bwah ha ha ha ha

 

I have a perfectionist streak. It sucks. Hee hee.

 

Oh, on a more serious note, forgiving myself from being human doesn't totally dispense with my feelings for Eric. I DID fall in love with him, despite everything. Idealist that I am, I have faith in people that I really have no reason to have faith in.

 

Need to run, have a flight to catch. Thanks for responding tbf!!

[Trialbyfire]

Oh my, isn't fox going somewhere too?

 

Have a great time!

 

I know how you feel about expecting the impossible from yourself. When you get back, I look forward to getting more into this aspect.

[sunshinegirl]

I've been thinking about this - expecting the impossible from myself.

 

I think I expected to be able to avoid this kind of pain by not making ultimately stupid decisions. Somehow I thought Eric and I would be some kind of exception to the general rule that people who are still ending their marriages are bad romantic risks...and that somehow our relationship could survive our (his) abysmal communication skills. Doesn't *every* relationship book and advice guru say that you can't have a healthy long term relationship without lots and lots of communication?

 

So yeah. It's me being mad at myself for ignoring my brain and my gut... and then getting my heart all wrapped up in a man who couldn't return my love.

[0hpenelope]

It sounds like Eric has a lot of work to do on himself...

 

Here's hoping he does.

[Trialbyfire]

Sometimes, when you enter into a relationship with a poor communicator, the mind plays tricks when questions aren't answered or there are gaping unknowns.

 

If you're a romantic, it will fill in those blanks with positive thoughts or wishful thinking. You create a different man and fall him love with him, after all, how can you not when the fantasy man is what you want?

[sunshinegirl]

It sounds like Eric has a lot of work to do on himself...

 

Here's hoping he does.

 

Yes, it does seem that way. I have no idea if he will do any of the work he really should do. Instead, it's entirely possible that he will continue to compartmentalize, stuff his feelings (if he indeed feels things anymore - can you lose your ability to feel?), and generally be unable to love other people. And yet he will tell you he is happy.

 

Is this possible? It seems like such an empty life to live. He seems to want a committed intimate relationship...but he seems unable to sustain one indefinitely and blind to his contributions.

[sunshinegirl]

Sometimes, when you enter into a relationship with a poor communicator, the mind plays tricks when questions aren't answered or there are gaping unknowns.

 

If you're a romantic, it will fill in those blanks with positive thoughts or wishful thinking. You create a different man and fall him love with him, after all, how can you not when the fantasy man is what you want?

 

Oh my oh my oh my, I sure as heck did this. I filled in all of the silent spaces, all of the blanks, with positive ideas of who he was under that mysterious front.

 

Well...wait. More accurately, I very clearly saw how silent/uncommunicative/surface-y he was....but decided that he was that way due to hurts that would eventually heal over and enable him to open up. I thought somehow he would be different with me than he was with his wife. Funny, in that sense I had a real over-inflated sense of myself.

[motive2002]

Seething thoughts of revenge filled my mind for quite a while after the break-up. It was it's own fantasy, but I felt "Wouldn't it be nice to give Karma a little shove in that general direction?"

Then I decided to allow the ex to make her own mistakes. God knows she's capable.

 

There will be a time when the ex will be suffering and grieving, but that's not the least bit relevant to your life... simply because they are no longer in it.

 

No need to check up on them. We all get our share of lumps in life. Rest easy knowing that the ex will too and that your life and what's happening in it is much more important to you than whatever he's dealing with.

[0hpenelope]

Yes, it does seem that way. I have no idea if he will do any of the work he really should do. Instead, it's entirely possible that he will continue to compartmentalize, stuff his feelings (if he indeed feels things anymore - can you lose your ability to feel?), and generally be unable to love other people. And yet he will tell you he is happy.

 

Is this possible? It seems like such an empty life to live. He seems to want a committed intimate relationship...but he seems unable to sustain one indefinitely and blind to his contributions.

 

Augh, it's this territory... I'm sorry sunshinegirl, this isn't towards you specifically. It reminds me of the time when I actually told Lawrence that he's compartmentalizing and he goes "Yeah, yeah, there you go throwing big words around" and I was like (does LS have a crying face? Where can I put in a request for that?). That really hurt.

 

The only people I know who have 0 empathy, or the absolute disconnect from their emotions are serial killers. That's a little extreme. But seriously, he and Lawrence are alike in a way... when Lawrence doesn't want to open up, he's a wall. He's so good at shutting down. He's so good at telling people he's happy because he'll show it on his face - he's smiling.

 

I'll share something. I remember when Bill Clinton was thumping for Sen. Hillary Clinton... he visited our university and through my friend's connections, I was able to go out there on the floor near his podium. I looked for Lawrence in the crowd and I saw him at the bleachers (the event was in our basketball gym). I don't think he saw I was watching him, but those moments that he was looking at me - he had this face. I can't describe it. He always smiles, but there was a particular look that he had while he was looking at me and I wish I could trust what I read on it. My gut told me he looked sad. But I couldn't even trust that. I still enjoyed being that close to the former pres. I didn't let Lawrence and the "Face" distract me from it.

 

That's quite an eye-opener, sunshinegirl... to know that between this college-aged male and a male that's probably a decade his senior, they can still have this issue with "walls." "If I ignore it, it's going away." Perhaps that's why Lawrence ended up saying I'm not "the One". I question a lot of things before I make up my mind and for me to get under his skin... it probably ticked him off. That, or he thought I got annoying. I've done him wrong in my own ways, too, but he can think I'd be able to go back into a friendship with him after such a devastating loss of trust?

 

I thought I would be able to, too...

 

I'm digressing. I'm sorry. I don't think Eric's lost his ability to feel - but I think he makes an active choice to shut down. Then we're going into this landfield of assumptions... I don't like it. The day I went NC on Lawrence was the day I decided I was tired of assuming that I knew him so well, him telling me that he does open up to me, when situations between us showed otherwise.

 

Wow, all these weeks of unmonitored NC and the thought still shatters me.

 

I hope you're coping well. When I see that people are coping well, it gives me hope that I'll be able to go on without feeling the Lawrence-funk at all... someday.

[Trialbyfire]

Oh my oh my oh my, I sure as heck did this. I filled in all of the silent spaces, all of the blanks, with positive ideas of who he was under that mysterious front.

 

Well...wait. More accurately, I very clearly saw how silent/uncommunicative/surface-y he was....but decided that he was that way due to hurts that would eventually heal over and enable him to open up. I thought somehow he would be different with me than he was with his wife. Funny, in that sense I had a real over-inflated sense of myself.

Once again, you're human ssg. Do you feel you could have averted this by reading his mind?

 

It's not as if he didn't care about you. I'm certain he did and probably gave what he could. Where it might not have worked was that his level of "could" was insufficient to match your level of intensity. Someone who feels emotions on a shallow level, can easily feel swamped by someone who feels emotions deeply.

[sunshinegirl]

Once again, you're human ssg. Do you feel you could have averted this by reading his mind?

 

It's not as if he didn't care about you. I'm certain he did and probably gave what he could. Where it might not have worked was that his level of "could" was insufficient to match your level of intensity. Someone who feels emotions on a shallow level, can easily feel swamped by someone who feels emotions deeply.

 

No, but I should have paid attention to my gut instinct much sooner. I shouldn't have to read his mind. I shouldn't have to be the one trying to get blood out of a stone just to get him to participate in a conversation.

 

I definitely understand your "swamped" comment... I'm not a flamboyantly emotional person (I know that's not what your'e saying but bear with me). In fact I'm rather laid back and with him, I started keeping more and more stuff to myself because he just wasn't interested, wouldn't engage. By the end of our relationship he couldn't have said he felt swamped by me because I was pulling back to match his non-level of engagement. We weren't communicating on much of anything beyond the surface level because I had learned by then that it was futile. So I guess that' spart of what confuses me: we were operating at the level he's comfortable with... so why would he have chosen to leave that? *I* should have been the one to cut bait because I was the one who was not very fulfilled.

[Trialbyfire]

No, but I should have paid attention to my gut instinct much sooner. I shouldn't have to read his mind. I shouldn't have to be the one trying to get blood out of a stone just to get him to participate in a conversation.

 

I definitely understand your "swamped" comment... I'm not a flamboyantly emotional person (I know that's not what your'e saying but bear with me). In fact I'm rather laid back and with him, I started keeping more and more stuff to myself because he just wasn't interested, wouldn't engage. By the end of our relationship he couldn't have said he felt swamped by me because I was pulling back to match his non-level of engagement. We weren't communicating on much of anything beyond the surface level because I had learned by then that it was futile. So I guess that' spart of what confuses me: we were operating at the level he's comfortable with... so why would he have chosen to leave that? *I* should have been the one to cut bait because I was the one who was not very fulfilled.

Did he need more emotion to feel needed and wanted? If so, that's completely back-arse, being unable/unwilling to give but needing it from someone else.

 

I won't disagree that there probably were red flags. Once emotionally engaged though, who gives up so easily over a few, what appeared to be, small things, believing time and our own caring could/would/should/will/might/shall make a difference. If we only care a little more, maybe...

[sunshinegirl]

Did he need more emotion to feel needed and wanted? If so, that's completely back-arse, being unable/unwilling to give but needing it from someone else.

 

I won't disagree that there probably were red flags. Once emotionally engaged though, who gives up so easily over a few, what appeared to be, small things, believing time and our own caring could/would/should/will/might/shall make a difference. If we only care a little more, maybe...

 

Did he need more emotion? I don't know. That's the whole problem, he never talked to me about what he wanted or needed in our relationship. On the emotions front, it's not that I pulled back on affection or warmth with him, I pulled back on conversational engagement. I also learned NOT to tell him I loved him, because he didn't say it back even though he once got this look on his face, almost like he wished he could say it back...and the second (and last) time I said it he finally said he loved me but that he'd been "hurt before". I chalked it all up to him being scared about being hurt again, when it's entirely possible he just didn't love me. (But then, why talk to me about moving in together if he didn't love me?) When we broke up, he said maybe something was broken in him, maybe he couldn't love.

 

But he sure could boink the office hooch.

[sao2]

Ugh, I hate when people tell me they are broken or otherwise defer responsibility for their actions by claiming "this is how I am".

 

The line between can't and won't is very simple. I can't break the world record in the 100m. I can't jump over a tall building. I can't travel somewhere new every weekend.

 

People need to learn the proper use of the word can't. One can love, One can trust, one can given themselves to a relationship, even when it is scary. It may be hard, but we always have that choice.

[Trialbyfire]

Did he need more emotion? I don't know. That's the whole problem, he never talked to me about what he wanted or needed in our relationship. On the emotions front, it's not that I pulled back on affection or warmth with him, I pulled back on conversational engagement. I also learned NOT to tell him I loved him, because he didn't say it back even though he once got this look on his face, almost like he wished he could say it back...and the second (and last) time I said it he finally said he loved me but that he'd been "hurt before". I chalked it all up to him being scared about being hurt again, when it's entirely possible he just didn't love me. (But then, why talk to me about moving in together if he didn't love me?) When we broke up, he said maybe something was broken in him, maybe he couldn't love.

 

But he sure could boink the office hooch.

Physicality for many people doesn't include the oh so scary investment of self.

 

Ugh, I hate when people tell me they are broken or otherwise defer responsibility for their actions by claiming "this is how I am".

 

The line between can't and won't is very simple. I can't break the world record in the 100m. I can't jump over a tall building. I can't travel somewhere new every weekend.

 

People need to learn the proper use of the word can't. One can love, One can trust, one can given themselves to a relationship, even when it is scary. It may be hard, but we always have that choice.

While I understand and agree with your underlying message, if someone says they can't do something, regardless of reasoning, believe it. In essence, they've accepted their inability, whether it's situational based or terminal.

 

You can't force yourself to love or even be attracted to anyone.

[sunshinegirl]

In Eric's case I think it's entirely possible that he can't experience love in a deep way. His emotional range has always been unusually small and he has a really flat affect. I asked him once if he just didn't experience emotional highs and lows or whether he stuffed his feelings down and he said "probably both". He doesn't empathize with other people and often joked that "people suck" or "people are stupid"...he would choose the self-check at the grocery store to avoid talking to a checker, he had no interest in charitable causes, I could go on.

 

In short, he was (is?) incredibly wrapped up in himself and I think is either a symptom or a cause of him not being able to deeply care about others. My parents both commented that "Eric seems to be all about Eric" when I told them what our relationship was like. That seems evident in his cheating. Of course, it doesn't stop me from worrying that he loves the hooch.

 

However, I really do feel badly for him about his ex-wife moving on so quickly, and for being so happy in her new life. His daughter basically has a whole new family, whom she loves, and Eric's been left out in the cold in some sense. Even if he can't love, he surely feels that sting of rejection in a deep way.

 

Edited to add: Eric shows some traits consistent with both Asperger's and Schizoid Personality Disorder. Not to pathologize him, but his behavioral repertoire IS noticeably different compared to the average person. If any of you met him, you would notice that something seems..."off"...about the way he interacts with people. You might not be able to put your finger on it, but you would notice it.

[Trialbyfire]

Did he display an intensity about himself aka consistent navel-gazing?

[sunshinegirl]

No. He is one of the least self-reflective people I've ever known. He seems to float through life skimming the surface of everything, just going about his daily activities without getting especially invested in anything. He doesn't seem to even see that his behavior in his marriage must have contributed to its failure - he attributed it to "we grew apart" "we married too young" "sometimes I still don't understand what happened".

[Trialbyfire]

He sounds either shallow or so incredibly insecure, that he would hide most of himself, refusing to feel for anyone.

 

Aspergers normally don't interact with people very well in that if you're not a familiar person, they won't meet your eyes or acknowledge you without you initiating a connection. Even then, it takes awhile.

[sunshinegirl]

He sure comes across as secure--he has all the answers. And yet, he doesn't know himself. And he admits that. So I wonder now if his self-assuredness is a big cover up for some major fears and insecurities.

 

It does strike me that he never let me in. Never let his guard down or showed any real vulnerabilities.