The Old Porno Argument!

[manugeorge]

Oh, God, did I really just post in this thread??

 

It's the vortex of death, like quick-sand, it will suck you in before you know what's happening.

 

I think they need another section of board just for porn. Same ol' argument, different day. You already know what people are going to say even before they say it because they've said it before a billion times.

 

And I just posted on this thread too, m'eh, it's friday afternoon, I'm bored as hell.

[trubella]

actually those are the same like two woman who keep saying they agree with it, and as both JS and I are both woman and we both KNOW woman and know how other woman feel and act do to communication wiht eachother I think we are better suited to defend our points in regards to the female species than you are!

 

im sorry but you do not speak for ALL women. within every porn thread that has been posted here plenty of women have said they had no problem with porn, including myself..

[soserious1]

Just as no little boy grows up saying "I want to marry a girl, go to work every day to support her and our children, mow her lawn, maintain her car, repair her appliances, stay faithful through our entire marriage, cheer her victories, console her defeats and have her tell me that I don't really love her because I don't exercise enough mental control of my thoughts"

 

Mr. Lucky

 

Except that little girls are also being expected to also get out there to work all day to support those children, and as far as it being only "her" lawn and "her" appliances. I think not, unless men live in sheds in the yard,eat all their meals out and send their personal laundry out,those appliances, that lawn are just as much the man's as the woman's.There are also increasing numbers of women out here who are the sole breadwinners in our families.We march off to work everyday while our house husbands surf for porn and do lord knows what else on the internet all day.

 

If you love porn,love ogling young women in the streets, you are perfectly entitled to rub your dick raw if it pleases you. What you're not entitled to do is sit there and act as if you deserve some sort of medal for the horrible,horrible sacrifice you've made in remaining physically faithful when you make it crystal clear that you'd much rather be boning anything that walks by in a skirt.If this is your situation,save us both a lot of grief and

don't sit there and vow your undying loyalty and fidelty to me.

[morelaugh]

You're projecting. You don't like porn. That says nothing about what what "women" think about it.

 

You're projecting again. Just because you are not bi does not mean others are not. It's certainly more out there today than it used to be, but that goes back to my hypothesis about societal evolution. It's out there more because it's more socially accepted.

 

Men can sometimes be so naive!!!

Especially when it comes to sex.

 

Women have been manipulating men with sex since the beginning of time.

Women are much better in manipulation and deception than men – probably the centuries of having no real rights made them to develop that ability, I don’t know.

 

Women are generally not confrontational; they will tell you what you want to hear.

 

My point is:

At the times when the major factor to get a man was to be a virgin, women would claim to be virgins.

Now that the major turn on for men is a bi woman – women claim to be bi.

 

You can think about it this way:

women (and I’m talking about heterosexual women) are as likely to be attracted to other women as (hetero) men are likely to be attracted to other men!

 

They just pretend because they know that is what turns men on. And men are naive enough to buy that. Bless them

 

 

---

 

Of course, genuinely bi-sexual people of BOTH sexes do exist – but they are a minority and I want to emphasise that I do not have anything against them.

It’s an un-proportionate percentage of bi women that is a big fake.

[2nd-Best]

im sorry but you do not speak for ALL women. within every porn thread that has been posted here plenty of women have said they had no problem with porn, including myself..

 

 

yes I remember, and you were one of the two that I was referring to actually.

 

I don't speak for all woman of course I don't but Most woman and most of the woman I've ever met or spoken to have a problem with their men watching porn or just the idea of porn in general.

 

Maybe you woman who like it (you know the ones who are not in it to please their man), like it because it defiles woman and you're into that... being dominated by a man or maybe its just that you have an over abundance of testosterone pulsing through your body in which case I'd recommend you see your doctor immediatley (that was a joke, sort of)

[virginiagirl]

yes I remember, and you were one of the two that I was referring to actually.

 

I don't speak for all woman of course I don't but Most woman and most of the woman I've ever met or spoken to have a problem with their men watching porn or just the idea of porn in general.

 

Maybe you woman who like it (you know the ones who are not in it to please their man), like it because it defiles woman and you're into that... being dominated by a man or maybe its just that you have an over abundance of testosterone pulsing through your body in which case I'd recommend you see your doctor immediatley (that was a joke, sort of)

I'm usually a lurker, but finally decided to comment. I watch porn with my boyfriend or when I'm alone, and I also know many women who enjoy porn so please don't assume you can speak for all or even most of us. I'm sure there are lots more of us out here lurking, we're just not interested in arguing the point over and over and over again. Just so you know, I'm pre-menopausal and over 40, don't have implants or other surgical enhancements yet I am secure in my sexuality. I also definitely don't have domination fantasies or an excess of testosterone. I have no doubt that my guy loves and respects me and our sex life has never been impacted negatively by porn. I have also never felt inadequate because he views porn ... it's not a big part of our sex lives ... and I don't waste time wondering if he compares me to the porn stars on the screen ....all this angst is so foreign to me and seems like such a waste of time and emotion. I would never want my bf to dictate my sexual thoughts and fantasies (smacks of control issues to me) and I most certainly don't try to dictate his thoughts. Perhaps the real difference between those of us who don't object to porn or (gasp) those of us who may even like some porn lies in our self-confidence, our confidence in our relationships and our ability to not feel threatened by what we see on the screen.

 

P.S. Soserious I am not talking about you, your husband is a supreme jerk and you are better off without him even if you have to pay money to do that. He would have been an idiot even without porn in the picture. I would suggest however that you are a prime candidate for therapy, it is clear to all of us who read your words that your years with him have severely damaged your psyche. The best revenge is to live your life happy and healthy without him.

[morelaugh]

Virginiagirl, if your bf suddenly stopped watching porn, would you feel disappointed?

[Mr. Lucky]

I would never want my bf to dictate my sexual thoughts and fantasies (smacks of control issues to me) and I most certainly don't try to dictate his thoughts. Perhaps the real difference between those of us who don't object to porn or (gasp) those of us who may even like some porn lies in our self-confidence, our confidence in our relationships and our ability to not feel threatened by what we see on the screen.

It's funny how most people see it to be as simple as you've stated here. And in all the 1000's of posts, no one has explained to me either why you'd want to dictate someone else's thoughts or how you'd measure your success in doing so. Anyone who's life is consumed by worry about their partner's thoughts is, at the very least, missing out on a lot of other things.

 

Your BF is a lucky man - no trait more attractive than self-confidence ...

 

Mr. Lucky

[virginiagirl]

Virginiagirl, if your bf suddenly stopped watching porn, would you feel disappointed?

I don't think I would feel disappointed or care one way or another if he stopped watching porn, it's not that integral to our sex lives. On the other hand, his decision to stop really doesn't mean that I would stop watching porn. Like I said I watch porn solo every now and again, especially when we are apart for long periods of time ( we both travel for work), and he does the same. Watching porn infrequently or moderately is not a deal-breaker for me. The deal-breaker would be someone trying to dictate my sexual thoughts and fantasies, or expecting 100% of my sexual thoughts to be about him.

[trubella]

yes I remember, and you were one of the two that I was referring to actually.

 

I don't speak for all woman of course I don't but Most woman and most of the woman I've ever met or spoken to have a problem with their men watching porn or just the idea of porn in general.

 

Maybe you woman who like it (you know the ones who are not in it to please their man), like it because it defiles woman and you're into that... being dominated by a man or maybe its just that you have an over abundance of testosterone pulsing through your body in which case I'd recommend you see your doctor immediatley (that was a joke, sort of)

 

for every woman you know of who is against it i can match you with one who likes and has no problem with it- even some who watch it alone (again including myself) i was watching porn way before my bf entered the picture so this has nothing to do with pleasing him or rolling over.

 

some of us dont see what all the fuss is about, unless my bf had an addiction to it(like yours) i could maybe see why you would resent it.

 

but thankfully ive never had to encounter that with any man i've dated.

[The Collector]

Hey JS here's some statistics for you to ignore

 

http://www.humanismbyjoe.com/Women_&_Porn.htm

 

In her book Defending Pornography, American Civil Liberties Union president Nadine Strossen writes: "The fact that many women find much that excites or otherwise pleases them in commercial erotica is indicated by their large and growing share of the burgeoning market for such imagery. Women, either singly or as part of a couple, constitute more than 40 percent of the adult videotape rental audience.

 

Strossen’s view is also supported by a 1987 survey of 26,000 female readers of Redbook, a women's magazine. In this study conducted by social scientists Carin Rubinstein and Carol Tavris, almost half the respondents said they regularly watch pornographic films.

 

Research by Columbia University anthropologist Carol Vance led her to formulate "Vance’s One-Third Rule" to describe women’s varying tastes in pornography. "Show any personally favored erotic image to a group of women," she explains, "and one-third will find it disgusting, one-third will find it ridiculous, and one-third will find it hot."

[Jersey Shortie]

Collector, I never said that I doubted there are women that like porn. However, I could just as easily post statistics about the harms of porn or how many women don't look at porn and are hurt by their partners porn use. We could both sit here all day posting data that we think supports our side.

 

Men want us to be secure, wild adventerous wild cats who feel great about ourselves and do crazy sexual things. Which would be great if women could feel that way. But you know what, women get so many message that they just aren't good enough and have to fight certain stereotypes about what makes a woman beautiful all the time. And when the men in your life supports those stereotypes and mediums that are all about super attractive women doing crazy things that most women look nothing like, it is a difficult and impossible expectations to live up to and to not buy into yoruself. No woman can compete with the amount of unrealistic visual aids men have and use. And even if a woman does do the crazy wild things with her partner that he finds sexy. The chances that he will turn around and turn on his computer to watch another woman doing those things with a stranger that just wants to use her as a place to put his penis, are pretty high. WOmen can't win. That's the message I get from men all the time. We just can't win with men because nothing we do is ever good enough or comparable to what you can find a click away or walking down the street.

 

Men expect women to not feel insecure about a medium that men themselves tell us is for the variety and exciting beauty and sexual acts of the women in it. It is over whelming what men's expectations seem to be about women. And how we are suppose to be so much more in control of ourselves and highly evolved to raise above certain life issues that men themselves don't expect of themselves to raise above themselves. Guess what guys, women want you on their side to feel like a team. We don't want to feel like we are working against you but that's exactly how it seems with men. I don't really know or get it. I don't get if most men just don't care, are insenstive about this issue, or if they just care about their desires more then they care about their partners.

 

I love how porn is justified in being indulged in. Yet they have expectations of women to feel so secure and good about themselves when the women men are looking at are nothing like the woman they have at home in most cases. Have a relationship with a man, have his children and build a life with him and look forward to the years he is eyeing his daughter's friends and looking at porn of 20 year olds just like he was 40 years ago. That is what happens with most men. That's what a woman can look forward to. You're the one that was there for him when his mom died, or was there and loved him when no one else did and he will still turn on the porn and claim his right to variety in a valley of 20 year olds.

 

 

 

Anyone who's life is consumed by worry about their partner's thoughts is, at the very least, missing out on a lot of other things.

 

Your BF is a lucky man - no trait more attractive than self-confidence ...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

Is he a lucky man because she likes porn and watches it herself? Or is he a lucky man because she is confident? Or is it both? Would you still be giving her praise if she was a confident women who didn't want porn used within her relationship? I wonder.

 

Any man that thinks that porn is a more worthy venture to defend and spend time looking at it, are missing out on alot themselves.

[sxyNYCcpl]

Would you still be giving her praise if she was a confident women who didn't want porn used within her relationship?

 

I'd argue that any woman who feels threatened by porn is, by definition, not very confident in herself.

[2nd-Best]

I'm usually a lurker, but finally decided to comment. I watch porn with my boyfriend or when I'm alone, and I also know many women who enjoy porn so please don't assume you can speak for all or even most of us. I'm sure there are lots more of us out here lurking, we're just not interested in arguing the point over and over and over again. Just so you know, I'm pre-menopausal and over 40, don't have implants or other surgical enhancements yet I am secure in my sexuality. I also definitely don't have domination fantasies or an excess of testosterone. I have no doubt that my guy loves and respects me and our sex life has never been impacted negatively by porn. I have also never felt inadequate because he views porn ... it's not a big part of our sex lives ... and I don't waste time wondering if he compares me to the porn stars on the screen ....all this angst is so foreign to me and seems like such a waste of time and emotion. I would never want my bf to dictate my sexual thoughts and fantasies (smacks of control issues to me) and I most certainly don't try to dictate his thoughts. Perhaps the real difference between those of us who don't object to porn or (gasp) those of us who may even like some porn lies in our self-confidence, our confidence in our relationships and our ability to not feel threatened by what we see on the screen.

 

P.S. Soserious I am not talking about you, your husband is a supreme jerk and you are better off without him even if you have to pay money to do that. He would have been an idiot even without porn in the picture. I would suggest however that you are a prime candidate for therapy, it is clear to all of us who read your words that your years with him have severely damaged your psyche. The best revenge is to live your life happy and healthy without him.

 

 

well maybe when im your age I will be bored enough with my sex life and have decided to give up on my personal beliefs that i will open up sexually and swing and watch porn.. it seems to be the norm with middle agers.

 

I dont call it being liberated, i simply believe that you are just giving up.. being defeated.

[virginiagirl]

well maybe when im your age I will be bored enough with my sex life and have decided to give up on my personal beliefs that i will open up sexually and swing and watch porn.. it seems to be the norm with middle agers.

 

I dont call it being liberated, i simply believe that you are just giving up.. being defeated.

Obviously you're disappointed because you can't put me in your little box labeled "All women think porn is bad". I've been watching porn since I was in my early 20's , so it's hardly something I discovered because I gave up on my personal beliefs, became middle-aged and/or bored and wanted to swing ... lol.

 

If it makes you feel better you can patronise me or insult me because I do not subscribe to your views, but the truth is there are women who do in fact like porn and are not threatened by it. I have never felt threatened by porn .. some porn I find amusing, some porn I find disgusting, and some porn truly turns me on. But that's the way I feel about movies in general ... some I like, some I hate, and there are many to which I'm indifferent.

[virginiagirl]

 

And even if a woman does do the crazy wild things with her partner that he finds sexy. The chances that he will turn around and turn on his computer to watch another woman doing those things with a stranger that just wants to use her as a place to put his penis, are pretty high. WOmen can't win. That's the message I get from men all the time. We just can't win with men because nothing we do is ever good enough or comparable to what you can find a click away or walking down the street.

 

 

 

 

Is he a lucky man because she likes porn and watches it herself? Or is he a lucky man because she is confident? Or is it both? Would you still be giving her praise if she was a confident women who didn't want porn used within her relationship? I wonder.

 

Any man that thinks that porn is a more worthy venture to defend and spend time looking at it, are missing out on alot themselves.

 

JS I don't get that message from the men in my life (sons, brothers, friends, bf) so either we interpret the same things very differently or perhaps you are simply meeting men who are wrong for you. Porn use is obviously a deal-breaker for you so you need to screen prospective mates carefully. Porn is not a deal-breaker for me, but there are other qualities I look for in a partner that are non-negotiable to me. I would never be in a relationship with a man who was threatened by me watching porn or reading erotica.

 

With respect to my boyfriend I believe he's a lucky man because I'm confident and I don't waste time trying to second guess what he's thinking about or whether he's comparing me to other women in or out of bed.

[The Collector]

Collector, I never said that I doubted there are women that like porn. However, I could just as easily post statistics about the harms of porn or how many women don't look at porn and are hurt by their partners porn use. We could both sit here all day posting data that we think supports our side.

 

JS, I have never claimed that there are women that don't like porn. That's obvious. Whereas you consistently conflate how porn makes you feel with how all women feel about it. If you were to make it more clear your statements reflect your personal distaste, or even use a modifier like 'some women or 'many women' when referring to women who share your views, that would make your posts much more accurate and people would have less problem with some of the things you post.

 

Yes we could throw data and statictics at each other. Personally I find evidence much more useful to discuss than reading the same rant again and again and again.

[soserious1]

P.S. Soserious I am not talking about you, your husband is a supreme jerk and you are better off without him even if you have to pay money to do that. He would have been an idiot even without porn in the picture. I would suggest however that you are a prime candidate for therapy, it is clear to all of us who read your words that your years with him have severely damaged your psyche. The best revenge is to live your life happy and healthy without him.

 

 

I briefly considered some therapy as I've been before during different times of my life and normally find it useful. After a bit of reading at the various online dating sites though, it's pretty clear to me that if I'm going to invest a chunk of money into personal improvement that my buck would be better spent consulting with a plastic surgeon. Men in their 50's are on the dating sites looking for women in the mid 30's to early 40's, they are NOT looking for female age peers. What my husband did isn't rare or unique, he simply seized the opportunity to unload an old wife to go out and pursue younger women, what is a bit rare is that he's going to be paid to unload me. He and his attorney have started with the list of demands, I'm going to be painted to the judge as a sex crazed, dirty old woman, a grandma who refused to act her age and who shamed and humilated her husband with my unrealistic demands for sexual intimacy. They're also going for the angle that I'm able bodied with a career still on the upswing, that I filed in an attempt to cheat him out of my best earnings years and that he should be awarded hugely.

[Jersey Shortie]

I'd argue that any woman who feels threatened by porn is, by definition, not very confident in herself.

 

What is there to argue? Of course *some* of the issue about porn is about insecurity. You can't create a whole billion dollar medium that more men then not view, that more men then not defend, that depicts women in a limited fashion and depicts women in degrading aspects and not expect there to be concerns and questions about how men view women. Regardless of what people wish was true, if you spend a regular amount of time viewing anything, it does infact have somewhat of a influence on you. And I would be hard pressed for any man or woman who couldn't see the socitial preasures and issues most women face about concepts of beauty and sexuality. If men think adding a fantasy world that is there to remind us how we don't live up to an idealized perception of what a woman should be, and is about the variety and change he can get from other women, and expect women to be secure within this, you just aren't being logical. Yes, porn is sometimes about insecurity. Nothing to argue! I sure as heck don't blame women for it. Because the truth is that men and women both have the ablility to do things that create security in a relationship or insecurity. There are things women do that can make a man feel insecure. And as a woman, when I am in a relationship, I do the things that let him know that his interests are important to me. I doubt that a woman viewing porn causes men to be insecure. But don't mistake the fact that there are many other things that do infact make men feel insecure that they would hope their own partners would respect.

 

JS I don't get that message from the men in my life (sons, brothers, friends, bf) so either we interpret the same things very differently ....

 

I'm sure we do. Because the message I get that it's okay to use, degrade, and discard women behind closed doors. Or it's okay to watch a woman having these thigns done to her and support it behind closed doors. But in the face of the public men better put on a front that they actually care to respect women because men want women to like them. It makes me seem like it's all a big farce and that men don't really care about women at all. All those fathers, brothers, boyfriends and husbands behind closed doors are viewing porn of women who are being used and discarded. And a women we are suppose to feel confident in them and in ourselves and our relationships with them? Not exactly fair. I guess a woman is only as good as the surface respect repersents. Beyond that, it's okay for men to use her as a three holed toy because men need "variety". So a woman can be just another tool in the garage that is there for his amusement until he gets a new tool to use.

 

 

 

With respect to my boyfriend I believe he's a lucky man because I'm confident and I don't waste time trying to second guess what he's thinking about or whether he's comparing me to other women in or out of bed.

 

You don't waste your time second guessing your man and I don't waste my valuable time viewing porn. I guess we both don't waste are time on different things. I am glad you consider your boyfriend a lucky man but you nkow what? I consider the men I have had relationship to be lucky men as well to be with me.

[Jersey Shortie]

Collector here is a factual article for you:

 

http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/index.php?term=pto-20010701-000023&page=1

 

 

Women just can't win.

[The Collector]

Collector here is a factual article for you:

 

http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/index.php?term=pto-20010701-000023&page=1

 

 

Women just can't win.

 

Don't you think the exact same thing would happen if you switched sexes? Did they try that? No.

 

If people didn't prioritise beauty to some extent, we'd all look like cavemen.

[Mr. Lucky]

Because the truth is that men and women both have the ablility to do things that create security in a relationship or insecurity. There are things women do that can make a man feel insecure. And as a woman, when I am in a relationship, I do the things that let him know that his interests are important to me. I doubt that a woman viewing porn causes men to be insecure. But don't mistake the fact that there are many other things that do infact make men feel insecure that they would hope their own partners would respect.

It's always interesting in your posts how you switch back and forth between the singular pronoun "I" and the group noun "women" as though they were interchangable. Somehow, you seem to see your experiences and views as though they were universal for the entire gender. Since it's hard for me to think of any group composed of more disparate, different and unique individuals than the female gender, how can you consistently state that "women" think this or "women" feel that based on what you might think or feel ???

 

Mr. Lucky

 

BTW - Wouldn't the same things apply to "men" ?

[Jersey Shortie]

Don't you think the exact same thing would happen if you switched sexes? Did they try that? No.

 

If people didn't prioritise beauty to some extent, we'd all look like cavemen.

 

I presented you with a factual article. Take from it what you will. You can discuss the information that was presented in the article or avoid it by trying to deter the subject.

 

.....different and unique individuals than the female gender, how can you consistently state that "women" think this or "women" feel that based on what you might think or feel ???

 

I know many women that feel such as I do.

[morelaugh]

It's funny how most people see it to be as simple as you've stated here. And in all the 1000's of posts, no one has explained to me either why you'd want to dictate someone else's thoughts or how you'd measure your success in doing so. Anyone who's life is consumed by worry about their partner's thoughts is, at the very least, missing out on a lot of other things.

 

Your BF is a lucky man - no trait more attractive than self-confidence ...

 

Mr. Lucky

Let me try and explain it to you.

 

You don’t want to control your partner, but you don’t accept her having sex with someone else – and that attitude is considered normal and non-controlling.

What if she wants to have sex with someone else – it doesn’t mean she doesn’t love you any more or she wants that guy more? She just wants to have sex with him and get back to you for a nice quite evening. Or maybe another sex session.

 

Whatever it may be, there are no many people (I do know some) who would be comfortable with this scenario.

 

You want to control her in a way that she can’t have (physical) sex with other people.

 

What you don’t understand is the same thing, just a bit stronger – you want to control our partner so he/she doesn’t even fantasise about other people.

 

Very simple.

Same thing just turned up a notch.

[Mr. Lucky]

What you don’t understand is the same thing, just a bit stronger – you want to control our partner so he/she doesn’t even fantasise about other people.

 

Very simple.

Same thing just turned up a notch.

Ok morelaugh, let's say I accept your scenario. There's just two questions - How do you do it? And how do you know when it has been done?

 

When you (or anyone else) can explain that to me, then I'll start worrying about my partner's thoughts...

 

Mr. Lucky