The Old Porno Argument!

[Alma Mobley]

Don't lump me into the guys who use "science" to advocate promiscuity, ok?

 

I said gals need to let it go in the same way I would tell guys to "let it go." Are you, Jersey, telling me that I cannot look at any sort of porn because it's going to harm women? Even though I'm a woman?

 

And you bet your ass I will tell a man what sex is about if he gets his education from porn.

 

I cannot help but wonder what kind of porn you and the men you have dated are looking at. I know that seems smarmy on my part, and it's not -- truly. At this point I wonder, what porn is truly offensive that you have been subjected to? I guess I don't understand where you are coming from? And I thought I did, at one point... enlighten me!

 

 

That's not factual. If you want to bring science into it, men and women are both "progammed" for monogomy and wanting many different parterns. We have hormones that trigger both. That's why it's a choice. The issue isn't that one chooses one over the other. I have no issue with a man or woman choosing to have many different partners if they are not committed to anyone. The issue is when people want both at the same time. And I often find that men want their partners to be monogmous, while want to make justifications for excusing the desire for many partners themselves. What some men forget is that women desire different partners too. It's just as exciting for women as it is for men. And we are all programmed to either want many partners or just one. Not one over the other. Modern society is more equal to women then previous earlier societies. Mondern society isn't telling women they must be the only monogomous ones anymore.

 

 

 

I realize what you said. You said girls need to let it go. What I don't understand is why you don't offer that advice to men with porn. You ignored that question. If you apply the "girls need to let it go"..why can't you apply that to men and how they need to let go of their porn? Makes sense to me.

 

 

 

 

Where did I do that?

 

 

 

I never said it wasn't normal for humans to be aroused by depictions of sex. And the cave drawings of yesterday are nothing like the porn depictions of women and men today.

 

 

 

 

Yeap. I think porn has effected my personal relationships with men profoundly. I think men have effected their relationships with women profoundly because of their porn use and the misgonistic overtones most porn has. I think men and women have done more harm to their relationships because of porn then help. I think we have generations of men that have been brought up on an ideal and perception of women that is unreal, cold, and misgonistic. So yes, I think I have been personally harmed by the industry. I think most women, daughters, girlfriends, wives have been as well.

 

 

 

 

Ummm yeah logic does have to do with this. When discussing the issue. But I would agree that this is a problem fueled by emotions for both men and women.

[Jersey Shortie]

Don't lump me into the guys who use "science" to advocate promiscuity, ok?

 

I never did that.

 

I said gals need to let it go in the same way I would tell guys to "let it go." Are you, Jersey, telling me that I cannot look at any sort of porn because it's going to harm women? Even though I'm a woman?

 

Orginally, your only comment was directed to women needing to "let it go". My opinion is that viewing porn is harmful to women, whether you are a woman or man.

 

[

I cannot help but wonder what kind of porn you and the men you have dated are looking at.

 

I don't view porn with the men I am dating. I think it's a disrespect selfish way to treat the person you claim you care about. But most men seem to love their porn over real women and that's where the loyalties remain.

 

At this point I wonder, what porn is truly offensive that you have been subjected to? I guess I don't understand where you are coming from? And I thought I did, at one point... enlighten me!

 

 

What exactly am i suppose to enlighten you about? My opinions of porn have been well explained. I think the majority of porn is degrading to women, sets up unrealistic standards that men buy into and makes men less of thte men they can be.

[Alma Mobley]

Jersey,

 

Ok, you win. I can't defend my porn, though I look at amateur porn because I dislike the Porn Industry. Though I think my partner loves me, I know he looks at porn from time to time. So do I. I guess we don't really love one another.

 

My life is a sham.

[Jersey Shortie]

That's nothing close to what I said.

[Alma Mobley]

Perhaps.

 

Tell me what you are saying, in terms I can understand.

[NoNonsense]

And that is why I struggle with having trust and faith in men. hard to trust a gender that as soon as you are unable to provide them with something or have your back turned are seeking out their needs vicariously through other women that meet a very limited ideal about female beauty that most women just don't live up to.

 

Hard to trust and have faith in men when we know they wished women to be something they just aren't.

 

In that, men are no different than women. As a general thing, both sexes wish the other sex was something they basically aren't. They just wish in in different ways, and deal with the resentment of the unfulfilled expectations in different ways. The same reasons underlie both, though.

 

 

men want to be accepted for who they are but they don't accept us for who we are.

 

Again, just like women.

 

I am sure that women can be more sexually rigid then men. We are fed so many mixed message. We are suppose to be sexy and beautiful 24/7 but we aren't suppose to be sluts. If we aren't sexy enough our men's attention goes somewhere else where she is sexy enough. We can never win.

 

That's true, and unlike some of the problems between the sexes that one is partly cultural, and thus partly correctable or 'maleable'.

 

 

We don't have the sexual freedom that men have, even today we still aren't there yet.

 

Realistically, it'll probably never happen, as long as reproductive biology works the way it does. There are quite a few barriers standing in the way of it, many of them biological and rooted in heredity.

 

 

So yes, I am sure women hinder themselves. But men hinder us as well. If you really want us to be sexual and engaging and excited, putting us up against a standard of 18 year olds with implants doing crazy things isn't the way to do it. It's not the environment that makes us feel sexy, inspired and safe to explore that side of us with our man. But men seem to wish that it was.

 

As a general thing, yes. We do wish just that, though it's not as cut and dried as that. We're born programmed to want that, or rather, we're born with hardwired impulses that this would superficially satisfy.

 

If you really want us to be more sexualized and free to explore that side of us, why don't men try doing the things that will actually produce those results?

 

A number of reasons, some of them cultural, some of them biological. For one thing, to a certain extent there is nothing that will produce those results, because they run contrary to female nature (again as a general thing). For another, men are just as bound by societal expectations as women are about what is 'acceptable' or 'perverted' or 'manly'. Porn is one contributor to this, as you note. It's not by a long shot the biggest or most important, though.

 

 

 

If we seem too politiced and feministic....I think it's because women don't want to be taken advantage of or used. And too often we are when it comes to sex.

 

That's true. The relationship between the sexes, in its basic biological nature, stripped of the things civilization brings to it, is kind of cold and predatory on both sides. To some degree, mother nature is the enemy of both m en and women.

[NoNonsense]

That's not factual. If you want to bring science into it, men and women are both "progammed" for monogomy and wanting many different parterns.

 

Only half true. Males are, by biological nature, more broadly promiscuous because from a genetic point of view, there's a payoff for that behavior that doesn't exist for women. There's also a genetic payoff for spending all the time and energy on offspring from one female, increasing the odds that those particular offspring will reach reproductive age themselves. For males, the genetic payoff can work either way.

 

That isn't nearly as true for females. It doesn't justify anything either way, but it's no use pretending the sexes aren't hardwired differently. And yes, individual exceptions do exist. They don't change the nature of the sexes as a general thing.

 

 

What some men forget is that women desire different partners too. It's just as exciting for women as it is for men.

 

The available evidence does not support that contention. It's true that affairs can be just as exciting for women as men, but women, as a general thing, are far more discriminating in their choice of partners, slower to engage in sex than men, and more likely to want that sex embedded in a relationship of emotional connections.

 

Again, eceptions obviously exist, but they don't change the general rule.

 

And we are all programmed to either want many partners or just one. Not one over the other. Modern society is more equal to women then previous earlier societies. Mondern society isn't telling women they must be the only monogomous ones anymore.

 

And for the most part, the old familiar patterns keep re-emerging anyway.

 

 

 

Yeap. I think porn has effected my personal relationships with men profoundly. I think men have effected their relationships with women profoundly because of their porn use and the misgonistic overtones most porn has. I think men and women have done more harm to their relationships because of porn then help. I think we have generations of men that have been brought up on an ideal and perception of women that is unreal, cold, and misgonistic.

 

There may well be some truth in that. The opposite version is that female fantasy industry that feeds the equally unreal desire for a kind of male who for the most part doesn't exist. It isn't as obviousl at first glance, but the romance novel industry, the ideal of 'romance' peddled by Hollywood, the 'bridal industry', etc, is feeding an equally insatiable and equally unreal appetite, based in the same biological roots.

[JerseyShortie]

And the thread resurrects again.

 

Realistically, it'll probably never happen, as long as reproductive biology works the way it does. There are quite a few barriers standing in the way of it, many of them biological and rooted in heredity.

 

Realistically, it will probably get to the point some day where the pendulum swings the other way. Or maybe it has. Because today women can have children without men. Women can raise children without men.

 

That's true. The relationship between the sexes, in its basic biological nature, stripped of the things civilization brings to it, is kind of cold and predatory on both sides. To some degree, mother nature is the enemy of both m en and women.

 

This is complete booha. Mother nature, at it's best is about harmony, not discord. So Mother Nature, at her best, would have men and women working together. Because if men and women never worked together, they would never have love, sex, relationships and family. Good think that biology isn't meant to be stripped of all humanity and emotion.

 

 

The available evidence does not support that contention. It's true that affairs can be just as exciting for women as men, but women, as a general thing, are far more discriminating in their choice of partners, slower to engage in sex than men, and more likely to want that sex embedded in a relationship of emotional connections.

 

Again, eceptions obviously exist, but they don't change the general rule.

 

You aren't a woman are you. Women aren't that much lower on the bell curve for number of partners they have slept with. At the end of the day, it is just as exciting to have a new partner for a woman, as it is a man. I am a woman that likes/desires commitment. But that doesn't take away from the fact that a new partner can be very exciting. Men do not have this one coined and are not so special that something new doesn't excite women.

 

And for the most part, the old familiar patterns keep re-emerging anyway.

 

But much less so then previous generations. Species evolve and change. Biologly evolves.

 

There may well be some truth in that. The opposite version is that female fantasy industry that feeds the equally unreal desire for a kind of male who for the most part doesn't exist. It isn't as obviousl at first glance, but the romance novel industry, the ideal of 'romance' peddled by Hollywood, the 'bridal industry', etc, is feeding an equally insatiable and equally unreal appetite, based in the same biological roots.

 

None of those industries belittle men, call them names..etc etc. Porn belittles women. No woman I know expects, or wants her husband to act like a romance novel. And I know just as many men that were excited about their marriage and planning as women. I also don't remember the last time a man did something his wife wanted him to do from a romance novel. I know lots of women that did something their man wanted from a porn.

 

All in all Nononsense, I find your posts riddled with justifications and excuses on why so many men can behave the way they do and it should be okay. Over all, we are human beings first., Not stoic, emotionless, uncontrolable tree sprouts with no minds of our own. I find though that it's not uncommon for many men to justify themselves on their lack of control and humaness on biological factors. If you want to spread your seed...great! Do it. But do not get in a relationship or pretend you care about being mongomous and defend crappy behavior to your partner in the name of being a *man*.

[clv0116]

.... im used to ex's not being able to keep there hands off me and having sex 4 times a day every day ....

 

.... I do whatever he wants in the bedroom as far as oral sex, any positions he wants and pretty much whatever hole he wants ....

 

I ... prefer that he watch this stuff then try it on me..

 

So long I know, so what do you all think of this situation??

 

 

Sounds like you could make a damn good GF for someone with a high sex drive. Why not find someone like that who has minimal bad habits? If you're as hot as you say it should be as easy as getting a latte.

[NoNonsense]

And the thread resurrects again.

 

 

 

Realistically, it will probably get to the point some day where the pendulum swings the other way. Or maybe it has. Because today women can have children without men. Women can raise children without men.

 

They always could. It doesn't matter, because it's still less biologically competitive.

 

 

 

 

This is complete booha. Mother nature, at it's best is about harmony, not discord. So Mother Nature, at her best, would have men and women working together. Because if men and women never worked together, they would never have love, sex, relationships and family. Good think that biology isn't meant to be stripped of all humanity and emotion.

 

Mother Nature is an it, not a she, and it is totally and completely amoral. 'Love, relationships, and family' are elements of civilization and religion and culture, nature is all about reproduction and genetic success, with both sexes. To talk about nature at 'best' is to apply human standards to something where they are irrelevant.

 

When you say biology 'isn't meant to be stripped of all humanity and emotion', you're dead wrong. The underlying biology embodies cold impersonal laws of chemistry and physics, population dynamics and reproductive necessity. Family, relationships, marriage and love, laws and customs, those are things human beings use to make up for the deficiencies of nature.

 

Harmony is irrelevant to that except insofar as its competitive genetically. Individual organisms are expendable in that from nature's point of view (which is itself a deceptive anthropomorhism, 'nature' isn't a being and has no opinions or desires, it's just a convenient label).

 

You're ascribing religious elements to nature where they don't exist.

 

 

 

You aren't a woman are you. Women aren't that much lower on the bell curve for number of partners they have slept with.

 

Do you have any evidence for this as a general human tendency?

 

But much less so then previous generations. Species evolve and change. Biologly evolves.

 

Not on a scale of human history. It's true that if we stay civilized and retain technological societies long enough, we'll change in response. Barring genetic engineering, it won't happen on any scale that matters to individuals.

 

 

 

And I know just as many men that were excited about their marriage and planning as women.

 

No doubt that happens sometimes. It isn't the norm.

 

I also don't remember the last time a man did something his wife wanted him to do from a romance novel. I know lots of women that did something their man wanted from a porn.

 

That's because you don't recognize how much male behavior in general that you consider 'normal' is done precisely because it's expected by women, not because it's a natural first reaction or impulse.

 

 

All in all Nononsense, I find your posts riddled with justifications and excuses on why so many men can behave the way they do and it should be okay.

 

On the contrary, I excused nothing and condemned nothing. I pointed out some realities you dislike.

[NoNonsense]

And the thread resurrects again.

 

I find though that it's not uncommon for many men to justify themselves on their lack of control and humaness on biological factors.

 

 

Men are just as human as women, all the time. There's not a dime's worth of difference between the sexes in terms of self-control or 'humaness'.

[D-Lish]

Seriously- I have not met a guy (either friend or bf) that didn't enjoy porn. Men are visual creatures. A little porn here and there is not a reflection of how they feel about you. It's not!!

 

Being addicted to it, where they watch it everyday all day and lose interest in sex with their partner.. well, that's a problem.

 

I don't necessarily think that his low sex drive is porn related.

Has he had his testosterone levels checked?

 

I dated a dude with a super low sex drive. Yes- we went through long periods without doing it. He also stated it had been a bone of contention in every relationship he had ever had. He never wanted to address it- so I lost interest. It just made me feel bad about myself all the time.

 

Porn is somethng many guys watch- it's just something they do. I do it sometimes. I can be in a relationship and still pleasure myself quite a bit... but that doesn't take away from how I feel about my guy. I even fantasize about other men (and um, other women too sometimes)...

It's just a fantasy.

 

Have him get his testosterone levels checked out. It might just be an imbalance. If he's not willing to look into it- THEN I would think about moving on, because it means he isn't willing to face a problem that is affecting you.

[NoNonsense]

Seriously- I have not met a guy (either friend or bf) that didn't enjoy porn. Men are visual creatures. A little porn here and there is not a reflection of how they feel about you. It's not!!

 

Not necessarily, anyway. It can be, but it usually isn't, in itself.

 

 

Being addicted to it, where they watch it everyday all day and lose interest in sex with their partner.. well, that's a problem.

 

And more common than is sometimes realized.

 

 

Porn is somethng many guys watch- it's just something they do. I do it sometimes. I can be in a relationship and still pleasure myself quite a bit... but that doesn't take away from how I feel about my guy. I even fantasize about other men (and um, other women too sometimes)...

It's just a fantasy.

 

True, but the caveat should be added that fantasy isn't automatically harmless. It depends on the person, the fantasy, and the circumstances.

[JerseyShortie]

If you're as hot as you say it should be as easy as getting a latte.

 

Getting a good latte is quite difficult. Barristas aren't what they use to be.

 

Mother Nature is an it, not a she, and it is totally and completely amoral. 'Love, relationships, and family' are elements of civilization and religion and culture, nature is all about reproduction and genetic success, with both sexes. To talk about nature at 'best' is to apply human standards to something where they are irrelevant.

 

Mother Nature is a feminine presence, so I will refer to her as I please. Mother Nature is also about balance. Things might get out of wack sometimes but utlimately it's about balance to succeed. Too much self interest makes us the worse possible caregivers to nuture a child, family, and life. Nature protects us with natural biological chemicals to make us respond in a way that helps life succeed. Sex in the purpose of reproducing is not the only model for society preservation. Love, selflessness, and self control..among many other "feelings" that we naturally have in us, make us better humans to carry on life.

 

When you say biology 'isn't meant to be stripped of all humanity and emotion', you're dead wrong. The underlying biology embodies cold impersonal laws of chemistry and physics, population dynamics and reproductive necessity. Family, relationships, marriage and love, laws and customs, those are things human beings use to make up for the deficiencies of nature.

 

No, you are dead wrong. The chemicals and feelings that a mother has for a child to take care of it are biological, but they are also emotional. The feelings and chemicals a man has to protect his woman/child or family are there for a reason and just as important as his feelings for sex. Biology triggers certain chemicals in us to trigger certain behaviors we need for survival. No one is going to say reproducing isn't important. But if you do not have parents to stick around to help the baby, the reproducing doesn't matter much. You are trying to rationalize that the only reason people have relationships, family and love are because of laws and society's rules. You are dead wrong in thinking that. Society might cause us to behave in certain ways but it doesn't create the desire for men and women to connect on a deeper level. That's biology. Just as much as it's biology for men and women to want to have sex.

 

Harmony is irrelevant to that except insofar as its competitive genetically.

 

Harmony is what the world is about. Ying and Yang. Can't have harmony with competition though and you can't have competition without harmony. Men and women are different for a reason but when they work together to make something work, they make something pretty beautiful. And I am not just talking about babies. Men and women with different immune systems are attracted to each other because one balances out where the other doesn't..or at least as a higher possiblity of doing so.

 

 

You're ascribing religious elements to nature where they don't exist.

 

 

I didn't mention anything about religion.

 

 

No doubt that happens sometimes. It isn't the norm.

 

Happens sometimes? I don't know one man that was at the stage of getting married and wasn't excited.

 

 

That's because you don't recognize how much male behavior in general that you consider 'normal' is done precisely because it's expected by women, not because it's a natural first reaction or impulse.

 

Maybe you don't understand how much female behavior is dones because it's expected by men and not because it's natural or the first impulse. Good thing people strive to be better then their impulses. Otherwise we would live in an even more selfish world then we do now.

 

On the contrary, I excused nothing and condemned nothing. I pointed out some realities you dislike.

 

No. I just don't agree with you on every point you made about the realities of a situation and find many holes in your theories.

 

 

I do think more men are addicted to porn then they even care to admit to themselves unfortunetly.

[rainfall]

Seriously- I have not met a guy (either friend or bf) that didn't enjoy porn. Men are visual creatures. A little porn here and there is not a reflection of how they feel about you. It's not!!

 

.

 

How can you say its not a refection of how they feel about you? A man getting of to other women is a huge reflection of how he feels about his SO. It shows that he feels she is not enough for him and he has to seek out other ways to be turned on. I just don't understand how anyone can be ok knowing that their so wants to sleep with other people.

[soserious1]

I've come to accept that the vast majority of men love porn and that glancing at pictures of young,tight bodied women is far,far,far better to men than anything this old woman might have to offer,unless they're feeling charitable or bored enough to use me as a human kleenex.

 

I figure my options are take it or leave it, whining and sniveling won't change reality.

[Mr. Lucky]

How can you say its not a refection of how they feel about you? A man getting of to other women is a huge reflection of how he feels about his SO. It shows that he feels she is not enough for him and he has to seek out other ways to be turned on. I just don't understand how anyone can be ok knowing that their so wants to sleep with other people.

Why would you think that someone "getting off" to an image means that they want to sleep with other people ???

 

Mr. Lucky

[Serenity01]

Leave him before you get TOO attached.

 

You will never change him.

 

And this goes deeper than porn, fantasies, human nature, or whatever excuse anyone else is going to give you.

 

He is lying to you....and because of that, you now have NO trust in the relationship. Let me tell you this....If he lies to you about this kind of stuff, what else is/will he lie to you about...???

 

You now have become "Inspector Gadget"...running around paranoid, thinking that he is lying again. That is not fair to you. You are NOT that person. You are becoming your environment.

 

Leave him....it is the only solution for you to maintain self respect.

 

XOXO (went thru similiar issues....and let me tell you.. after almost 8 yrs... NOT WORTH IT)

[Jennifer26]

The last time I posted in this thread was August of last year.

 

I'm not surprised to see it's still going.

 

I've come to the conclusion that the majority of men look at porn (I knew this before actually, but it's still true) and there isn't anything women are going to do to change that. Even if you somehow manage to get him to stop looking at porn, that doesn't mean he's not going to be thinking about screwing the neighbor, or hot girl he saw at the coffee shop.

 

You can't control a mans fantasies, there is honestly no point in trying or getting upset over them.

 

I chose many months ago to stop looking at what my husband was doing in regards to porn. I can't even tell you guys how much more happy I am now than I was six months ago when I "snooped" and "played detective" and it's come to the point that I honestly don't care.

 

I used to think all of the marital issues I was having were a result of the porn. I blamed it for everything. Stepping back, I can see there are clearly other issues now. I don't know if my marriage will work out in the end because my husband has never been interested in working with me, or on himself in any way, shape, or form. But that is for a whole other thread.

 

I do have to say, he's been far more interested in me sexually since I've stopped caring about the porn. In some ways I think it actually made the porn more exciting for him with me snooping over his shoulder.