The Old Porno Argument!

[blair08]

I think once questions are stopped being asked and people are no longer being poked and proded for their answers it will lighten up.

 

Then again, this issue probably never will be light.

[c-riouz]

A more or less dialogue between two guys, Ethan and Hugo. Sheds an interesting new light on the whole porno argument.....

 

~ The average guy who can compartmentalize, disconnect, and then come back ~

-----------------------------------------------

ETHAN:

 

The male sex drive can feel oppressive, more like a visceral need than a casual desire. Moreover, I think our biology is geared to make men seek variety over consistency. Guys can A) bug their girlfriends/wives for more sex (maybe with crazy outfits or roleplay) B) seek it elsewhere from strangers, prostitutes, or mistresses or C) simply satisfy themselves with Internet pornography. ------------------------------------------------

 

HUGO:

 

Maybe men can perceive lust as *visceral need*. But feelings are not facts, and not every desire, no matter how powerful, requires a concomitant outlet. Ethan listed three options above, and conveniently leaves out at least two others:

 

D. Masturbate without pornography, focusing the fantasy on the absent partner.

 

E. Refrain from masturbating altogether until he can be with his partner again, a seemingly impossible task that I see lived out regularly by men I know well and trust profoundly.

 

E is surely a level of self-denial and commitment that goes beyond what most folks, male or female, might be willing to offer. [...] Option D seems perfectly reasonable to me, however. If I were to concede that in singleness or a long-distance relationship, masturbation was a positive good, it still would not follow that porn was necessary in order to achieve arousal and satisfaction. Porn only reinforces the great lie of everlasting novelty , about which I have posted at length before.

 

Ultimately, the great tragedy of porn is that it teaches the men who use it to pursue everlasting novelty. Ask any man who uses porn - does he want to see the same pictures over and over again of the same women? No. If looking at one beautiful naked woman was enough, Playboy could put out one issue a decade. Internet porn sites could update annually instead of daily. But as most porn users admit, what was an intense turn-on the first time quickly becomes stale and boring. The seductiveness of internet porn in particular is that some brand new woman, one you have never seen before, is just one or two clicks away on your computer. The pursuit of everlasting novelty is the enemy of actual relationship. Real relationships are built on a very different premise from porn - the notion that what is really sexy is not *new skin* but radical connection with one other person.

 

Ethan claims that men can compartmentalize... I've been doing men's work for many years now. And while I may not be the average bear, I do believe this with every fiber of my being: no one, no one, no one, can just *compartmentalize, disconnect, and come back*. (What you do in one area inevitably, even capriciously, spills over into another.) When we *compartmentalize* and *disconnect*, we stop seeing women - real women, and porn stars are real women - as actual human beings who have needs that go beyond our own pleasure.

___________________________

The bold paragraph is the essential point. Guys, if it's really "only" about the act and "merely" a visual aid to help the masturbation process, then how come you don't watch the same video over and over again? I'm really curious about the answers.....

[Mr. Lucky]

Real relationships are built on a very different premise from porn.

That's true. I think men and women agree on this statement but disagree on it's impact. Men don't see fantasy as having anything to do with "real relationships" - you can't date Lara Croft, Wonder Woman or Jenna Jameson. I think most of us are surprised that women even see them as competition...

 

Mr. Lucky

[Mr. Lucky]

When we *compartmentalize* and *disconnect*, we stop seeing women - real women, and porn stars are real women - as actual human beings who have needs that go beyond our own pleasure.

Dustin Hoffman is a real person. Were you concerned about his "needs" when he was strapped to the dentist chair in "Marathon Man" ?

 

Mr. Lucky

[c-riouz]

You can't date them, Mr.Lucky - but your answer implies that you would if you had the chance. And THAT'S precisely why we see them as competition - apparently we're not enough. And your Dustin Hoffman analogy is not really accurate - I don't sit around and masturbate to him, or any other movie for that matter. The sexual nature is what makes the difference. And you still haven't answered my question.

[Mr. Lucky]

The sexual nature is what makes the difference.

It makes a difference to you. And perhaps to many women. Understanding that has been something of an eye opener to me . But the fact that the subject matter is sex doesn't deter me from understanding that it's still just a movie. A fantasy. Not real. And I don't think that Jenna Jameson is the person she portrays in her films anymore than I think that Harrison Ford is Indiana Jones. I think many men feel the same way. I guess that's why it's easy for us to compartmentalize and hard for us to understand many women's strong reaction to it. Doesn't make us right and you wrong - or vice versa ...

 

Mr. Lucky

[Jersey Shortie]

Really great posts C-iouz

 

You can't date them, Mr.Lucky - but your answer implies that you would if you had the chance. And THAT'S precisely why we see them as competition - apparently we're not enough. And your Dustin Hoffman analogy is not really accurate - I don't sit around and masturbate to him, or any other movie for that matter. The sexual nature is what makes the difference. And you still haven't answered my question.

 

Excellent response that I think sums it up for most women. The answer implies that a man would if he could. And with so many interchangable women there infront of a man for him to see, no women can compete with the novelty and the newness and the variety of women. It is a never ending cycle. And the message the real woman is given time and time again is that she is and never will be "enough" for him to have a happy, fullfilling deep relationship.

 

 

 

To me, that's one of the first "real world" things you've posted. "Men" as a group don't agree with everything that "Women" as a group do and (obviously! ) vice versa. Both the man and woman in a relationship will have areas of disagreement regarding sexuality and other interactions, so compromise is inevitable. I just don't see how either party's side is enhanced by using wholesale labels such as "cheaters", "liars" and "adulterers".

 

What are you trying to say here Mr. Lucky? That men actually do reconcile going to bed with a woman that looks nothing like a porn star or acts like one or a man reconciles going to bed with a woman after enjoying the degradation of another female in a porn movie. SO men really want porn stars in their bed and to kick out ther normal loving wives out so much to the fact that they have to reconcile going tobed with them? Wow...just wow. Is that honestly what you were trying to say? I hope to God I am misunderstanding you because your response has left me even more disheartened. Do men ever love and care for women? Or do they just want to be able to have porn and a human female body to use to get off from looking at said porn? Why do men even bother having relationships since it doesn't really seem like most men respect relationships or even women overly much. It's obvious that most men don't want to love women the way they need to be loved. They just want to have a warm body around to service them along with their porn. ANd of course, the porn is what is better and deserves to be respected so much that men are willing to stand up and defend it over real women.

 

 

Then lighten up on us, will ya ???

 

Mr. Lucky

 

Try to be more sensitive to us, will you??

[Mr. Lucky]

The answer implies that a man would if he could.

See how silly this has become? Your assumption is that the answer implies that I would date Lara Croft if I could? Or were you talking about Wonder Woman? Because you're starting to scare me, Jersey. You know that they're not real people, right ?

 

 

What are you trying to say here Mr. Lucky? That men actually do reconcile going to bed with a woman that looks nothing like a porn star or acts like one or a man reconciles going to bed with a woman after enjoying the degradation of another female in a porn movie. SO men really want porn stars in their bed and to kick out ther normal loving wives out so much to the fact that they have to reconcile going tobed with them? Wow...just wow. Is that honestly what you were trying to say? I hope to God I am misunderstanding you because your response has left me even more disheartened.

 

Again, thanks for the full meal of words you put in my mouth. What I was recognizing was that you compromise your obviously deeply-felt views to maintain a relationship with your BF. I'm assuming he does the same thing. Most men and women do, myself and my W included. The reconciling comes from the need to understand that one's opposite sex partner isn't going to look at all aspects of sexuality the same way you do. Calling him names, either in person or online, isn't going to bridge that gap. I understand that you wish that he - and all men - looked at porn and other women the way you do. It doesn't seem to work that way and you just might have to accept that...

 

Mr. Lucky

[Lovelybird]

seems women's tears cannot change a man either

 

many men and women use porn to erase loneliness and boredom, until their heart is filled with real thing they need and confess watching porn is wrong, the addiction is hard to break.

 

Typical of the type of women Marnie counsels is Julie, a young wife and mother from Georgia, who first saw pornography as a child in the home of a relative, and whose curiosity led her to explore it further as she grew older. She and her husband later rented X-rated videos after hearing it would help their faltering sex life. "That's the ugliest lie out there," Julie explains. "Instead of bringing you closer, it drives a wedge between you and your spouse!" As many couples who turn to porn experience, their marriage continued to falter, since they now also were dealing with unrealistic expectations. As the problems persisted, Julie's husband withdrew from her and she turned to porn to ease her increasing loneliness. "I was using it as a tool to escape the problems in my marriage."

 

Loneliness also is the reason Rose*, a single mom, turned to porn. She didn't go looking for it in the beginning. "I was seeking companionship. In chatting with other lonely people struggling in their marriages, I learned of some Internet sites I could visit to make friends and have fun. At first, the sexual talk in these chatrooms seemed harmless and non threatening. My loneliness and craving to feel wanted drew me into relationships I really didn't want."

 

Lacey*, who's 30 and single, wasn't particularly lonely, but she was in search of her "soul mate." She'd developed her ideas of romance and love from popular novels, and believed much of a woman's worth is based on her sexuality—which led her to Internet pornography.

 

Rose neglected her housework, even her children. Julie neglected her husband and her home, often spending all day on the computer. Maggie says it was her spiritual life that suffered the most: "When you're not doing it, you're thinking about it. Pornography crowds out God and everything else."

 

Perceived lack of sexual fulfillment is a common precursor to sex addiction. Nate Larkin, founder of the Samson Society, told CT that an addiction may start with a preoccupying sense of dissatisfaction, followed by a craving for relief. Then comes creation of a plan, followed by deception, and then the compulsive sexual act itself.

"The euphoria would pass, leaving me disappointed, awash in self-loathing, cursing myself for my stupidity, and promising never ever to do that again," Larkin, 51, writes in Samson and the Pirate Monks: Calling Men to Authentic Brotherhood. "I would step back into my regular life with renewed resolve, but before long my inner emptiness and dissatisfaction would start screaming for relief, and the cycle would begin again."

 

Although sex addiction has been around for centuries, only in the past generation has it been recognized also as an illness, much like alcohol and drug addiction. Thirty years ago, Pine Grove's Carnes pioneered research that showed how sex addicts' brains undergo changes during the point of orgasm, akin to the euphoria a cocaine addict feels. And as with drug addiction, over time the sex addict chases new highs to try to create the same feeling, a feeling that the brain now craves. In the wake of Carnes's research, groups such as Sex Addicts Anonymous and Sexaholics Anonymous formed.

 

"There are now people struggling with sexual compulsivity who never would have been if not for the Internet," Carnes writes in the third edition of Out of the Shadows: Understanding Sexual Addiction.

Viewing pornography is nearly always accompanied by masturbation. Swirling emotions surround the mood-altering experience. Some men never move past this stage. Addicts bring different beliefs into their views on pornography, based on their spiritual and familial backgrounds. It also depends on how much and what type of pornography is being consumed. Progression will likely be quicker for someone who watches orgy films nightly than for someone looking at a soft-core porn magazine monthly. If sex is the top "medicator" of an addict, progression is rapid. The addict develops a tolerance for new behaviors if they bring temporary relief.

Others progress rapidly to increasingly exotic, perverse, and even illegal sexual behavior: exhibitionism, voyeurism, strip clubs, lap dances, massage parlors, adultery, prostitution, homosexual liaisons, rape, incest, bestiality, or child molestation—anything to feed the craving.

"A major factor in progression is what a guy fantasizes about during sexual release," Weiss says. "If a guy masturbates to something it would take a prostitute to do, he's more likely to find one."

[Lovelybird]

Addiction can be broken by fasting, praying to God, purifying your mind. It can be done.

[Lovelybird]

I read some articles about porn addiction, most of them are men

 

Are men easily tempted and weaker than women? or something else?

 

http://www.purelifeministries.org/index.cfm?pageid=167&articleid=100

[c-riouz]

It's because men are less evolved and have to actually have it visually in their face. Women can just fantasize and be aroused. This just proves, once again, which gender is truly superior.

 

Just kidding, guys. Couldn't resist.

 

And Mr.Lucky, I know Wonder Woman and Lara Croft aren't real - I was more referring to the porn stars in general. When men are masturbating, and right in that moment the porn girl would enter the room naked, spread the legs and men had the chance to f*** her - do you really want to tell me that men would turn that chance down? THAT'S the point.

 

Let me ask again: why don't men just fantasize about doing their wives / gfs when they masturbate? It must be because she isn't enough, can't do it for him anymore - or why else? What other plausible reason could there be? What other plausible reason is there for watching tons and tons of different new chicks every time?

[Lovelybird]

haha, c-riouz

 

the reason they watch tons of different chicks, give them a good reason, is that they are hunger deep in their souls, but they don't know this, instead they think they need more new chicks. oops, this doesn't prove men are superior either

 

here is a beautiful article

 

Behind Sex Addiction is a Hunger for God

by Brent Curtis and John Eldredg

Editor’s Note

 

In their book The Sacred Romance, Brent Curtis and John Eldredge describe God’s wild, passionate pursuit of our hearts. We are God’s beloved, designed for intimacy with Him. He whispers of His great love and longing for us, but the world’s pain, travail and chaos drown out the voice. Although life separates us from our true destiny - a deep, satisfying relationship with God - our hearts yearn on. Even while we are frustrated by our earthly journey fraught with failure and disappointment, we know we are made for something more. We seek an aliveness of soul, a magical moment of romance.

 

Somewhere along life’s bumpy road, we begin to resign ourselves that we will never find the romance we desire. We disconnect, forget whose voice is whispering to us, and harden ourselves against the disappointment. But we can’t totally silence the voice, and so we compromise by taking to ourselves what Brent Curtis calls “less-wild lovers.” We seek substitutes that are less passionate, less dangerous, less potentially painful, and in short, less wild, than a love relationship with God.

 

In this excerpt, Curtis explains that our attempts to deaden or anesthetize ourselves to the pain can play out in two ways: by seeking competence or order, such as by keeping a spotless home or life; or by giving our heart a life on the side by losing ourselves in an affair, a fantasy life, or pornography. As Curtis shows, this pursuit of a less-wild lover is ultimately empty and leads to isolation instead of the fulfillment and communion we seek.

 

The Sacred Romance: Less Wild-Lovers

We put our hope in meeting a lover who will give us some form of immediate gratification, some taste of transcendence that will place a drop of water on our parched tongue. This taste of transcendence, coming as it does from a nontranscendent source, whether that be an affair, a drug, an obsession with sports, pornography, or living off of our giftedness, has the same effect on our souls as crack cocaine. Because the gratification touches us in that heart-place made for transcendent communion, without itself being transcendent, it attaches itself to our desire with chains that render us captive.

 

A few years ago, I was counseling with a Christian man just ending a yearlong affair. He was married to an attractive and energetic woman who was also a believer, and he knew that he really loved her. He also began to understand that whatever it was that attracted him to the affair, it was not the woman herself, but something she represented. As we talked of making his break with her final, he wept with grief, immersed in the fear that some shining, more innocent part of himself would be left behind with the affair-left behind and, perhaps, lost forever.

 

And this is the power of addiction. Whatever the object of our addiction is, it attaches itself to our intense desire for eternal and intimate communion with God and each other in the midst of Paradise—the desire that Jesus himself placed in us before the beginning of the world. Nothing less than this kind of unfallen communion will ever satisfy our desire or allow it to drink freely without imprisoning it and us. Once we allow our heart to drink water from these less-than-eternal wells with the goal of finding the life we were made for, it overpowers our will, and becomes, as Jonathan Edwards said, “like a viper, hissing and spitting at God” and us if we try to restrain it.

 

 

 

Whatever the object of our addiction is, it attaches itself to our intense desire for eternal and intimate communion with God and each other in the midst of Paradise-the desire that Jesus himself placed in us before the beginning of the world.

 

 

“Nothing is less in power than the heart and far from commanding, we are forced to obey it,” said Jean Rousseau. Our heart will carry us either to God or to addiction.

 

“Addiction is the most powerful psychic enemy of humanity’s desire for God,” says Gerald May in Addiction and Grace, which is no doubt why it is one of our adversary’s favorite ways to imprison us. Once taken captive, trying to free ourselves through willpower is futile. Only God’s Spirit himself can free us or even bring us to our senses.

 

If God’s experience of being “married” to us, who are his Beloved, is sometimes that of being tied to a legalistic controller in the ways I’ve described in the paragraphs on anesthetizing our heart, at other times it is more like that of being married to a harlot whose heart is seduced from him by every scent on the evening breeze. In our psychological age, we have come to call our affairs “addictions,” but God calls them “adultery.” Listen again to his words to the Israelites through Jeremiah:

“You are a swift she-camel running here and there, a wild donkey accustomed to the desert, sniffing the wind in her craving- in [your] heat [how can I] restrain [you]? any males that pursue [you] need not tire themselves; at mating time they will find [you] Do not run until your feet are bare and your throat is dry” (Jer. 2:23-25).

God is saying, “I love you and yet you betray me at the drop of a hat. I feel so much pain. Can’t you see we’re made for each other? I want you to come back to me.” And Israel’s answer, like that of any addict or adulterer, is: “It’s no use! / I love foreign gods, / and I must go after them” (Jer. 2:25).

 

Perhaps we can empathize with the ache God experienced as Israel’s “husband” (and ours when we are living indulgently). Having raised Israel from childhood to a woman of grace and beauty, he astonishingly cannot win her heart from her adulterous lovers. The living God of the universe cannot win the only one he loves, not due to any lack on his part, but because her heart is captured by her addictions, which is to say, her adulterous lovers.

 

Many of us have had the experience of not being able to bridge the distance between ourselves and others, whether they be parents, friends, or lovers. Whether the distance is caused by unhealed wounds or willful sin in our lover’s heart-or our own-we experience their rejection as our not “being enough” to win them. Unlike God, we begin to think of ourselves as having a problem with self-esteem.

 

Whereas God became even more wild in his love for us by sending Jesus to die for our freedom, most of us choose to both become and take on lovers that are less wild. We give up desiring to be in a relationship of heroic proportions, where we risk rejection, and settle for being heroes and heroines in the smaller stories where we have learned we can “turn someone on” through our usefulness, cleverness, or beauty (or at least turn ourselves on with a momentary taste of transcendence).

 

The list of our adulterous indulgences is endless: There is the exotic dancer, the religious fanatic, the alcoholic, the adrenaline freak, the prostitute with a man, the man with a prostitute, the eloquent pastor who seduces with his words, and the woman who seduces with her body. There is the indulgent lover who never really indulges physically, but spends his life in a kind of whimsy about what is lost, like Ashley in Gone with the Wind. What these indulgent lovers have in common is the pursuit of transcendence through some gratification that is under their control.

 

In the religions of the Fertile Crescent, access to God (transcendence) was attempted through sexual intercourse with temple prostitutes. Perhaps, as we indulge our addictions, we are doing no less than prostituting ourselves and others in this very same way. “Every man who knocks on the door of a brothel is looking for God,” said G. K. Chesterton.

 

At first glance, those of us who live by indulgence-illicit affairs of the heart-appear to have a certain passion that is superior to those who live by anesthesia. But is a passion that must be fed by the worship or use of the other and so it is a passion that does not leave us free to love. Indulgence leaves us empty and primed for the next round of thirst quenching in an endless cycle that Solomon described as “vanity of vanities.” Jimi Hendrix, one of our modern-day poets, just before his death of a drug overdose, said it this way: “There ain’t no livin’ left nowhere.”

 

Life on that first road where the signs promised us life would work if we just applied the right formula-the road that seemed so straight and safe when we first set out on it-gives us no wisdom as to what we’re to do with the depth of desire God has placed within us. It is desire that is meant to lead us to nothing less than communion with him. If we try to anesthetize it, we become relational islands, unavailable to those who need us; like the father who lowers his newspaper with annoyance at the family chaos going on around him, but makes no move to speak his life into it.

 

If we try to gain transcendence through indulgence, soon enough familiarity breeds contempt and we are driven to search for mystery elsewhere. So the man having an affair must have another and the man who is an alcoholic must drink more and more to find the window of feeling good. “There is only One Being who can satisfy the last aching abyss of the human heart, and that is the Lord Jesus Christ,” said Oswald Chambers.

 

Excerpted from The Sacred Romance: Drawing Closer to the Heart of God by Brent Curtis & John Eldredge.

[Green]

Heres what you do... just borrow porn from your friend... that way you don't need to spend money on it... or get a wife that way you'll have to hide your porn and always be afraid to watch it.... I HATE PORN but I do love nude scenes in regular movies with stories, Like I love the halie berry sex scene in monsters ball and the nudity in showgirls is the only thing that made that movie bearable

[Lovelybird]

I do think men who love porn is prone to cheat and affair

 

Porn nutures self-centreness

self-centreness easily lead to affair and unfaithfulness

 

and I don't understand how can men seperate sex with love. Sex is supposed to be shared with the one you deeply care about, have history together, share intimacy not only in body but also in mind. The problem is that: did God make man this way? or man chooses to be this way? if some men can live happily without porn, why not some others? if a man is strong, what make him strong? if a man is weak, what make him weak?

[c-riouz]

Here's another interesting post on the effects that porn can have.....and I bet it's safe to say that this applies to more men than like to admit.......

 

___________________________

 

Porn Has Completely Destroyed Me

 

There was a time - I'd say pre 1999 - when I would have tolerated a girl with an errant fat roll, a mildly problematic ass, or even non-porcelain veneered teeth. And come to think of it, I might have even green lighted a B cup chest.

 

But with the installation of the high speed cable modem, alas, I am sad to say that those times have now passed. I now only want - and will only solicit affection from - girls with killer porn star looks and behavior.

 

I am ashamed and I do not like what now stimulates me, but the Internet, with all of its quick fix, crack-like vices, has made me extraordinarily intolerant.

 

Are you a Tufts or Harvard grad and a great conversationalist?

 

Not important.

 

Do you have a quirky sense of humor and a knack for cooking Asian Fusion cuisine?

 

Don't care.

 

Would you like to discuss the sub-text meaning of the whip sawed brush strokes of that Kandinsky painting at the MFA?

 

Fu.ck off.

 

Be the source of a blood rush and make me throw a rod in my pants or kindly turn into anti-matter.

 

I am ruined. I am dead on the inside. I am ashamed and embarrassed of what now stimulates me and I know that I am irrevocably changed for the worse. For all practical purposes, Internet porn has destroyed me.

 

So who am I? Not who you'd think. Not the dandruff-haired blob of sh.it in the cube next to you. Not the UES Michigan frat boy. Not the faux disheveled Downtown hipster with the silly retro Puma sneakers.

 

Sadly, I am the "normal" one that you're actually interested in. Cultured, eloquent, well dressed. I am the one you discuss with your girlfriends over Sunday brunch. I am the one you hope to bump into at Karen's pajama themed apartment party. I am the one who takes the lead, holds doors, and hails cabs.

 

Sh.it.

 

Do you dream of a man who will "love you just for you?"

 

Do you believe that you have peripheral, intangible qualities that men of substance will key upon and gravitate to?

 

Do you shun the gym in favor of The Apprentice and a pint of Ben & Jerry's Chunkey Monkey, thinking that your black cigarette pants will sufficiently mask any belly spillage or ass expansion?

 

Then forget it. It's game over. You're a walking, talking non-compete clause and you're going to end up alone with a slobbering oversized Rotweiller named Chuckles.

 

Pull your head out of your ass and be advised - porn viewing/obsession is spreading like the plague amongst my gender - upping the already unrealistic physical expectations, pushing boundaries in the bedroom (you're down with anal, right?), and providing instant, customize-able sexual highs with the push of a button.

 

If you're female and you don't possess prodigal, Einsteinian caliber intelligence that would propel the cause of humanity forward, and, if you don't relish the idea of being alone, then . . .

 

. . . throw every last dollar you have at your physical appearance.

 

I'm serious. Personal trainer. Porcelain veneers. High-end boob job. Get scared and get it done.

 

Do not extend my gender any credit. Do not hope that a guy will be in awe of your cello playing, your VP title, or your cute apartment.

 

I promise you he won't care. Don't kid yourself into thinking he will. Men are programmed to respond to the visual.

 

Look good or you're alone.

 

(Source: craigslist.org)

___________________________

 

 

And that's just one out of many ..... just one.....

[Jersey Shortie]

That is am extremely depressing post but I am sure that there really is alot of truth in that for men.

 

See how silly this has become? Your assumption is that the answer implies that I would date Lara Croft if I could? Or were you talking about Wonder Woman? Because you're starting to scare me, Jersey. You know that they're not real people, right ?

 

 

You are either being purposely obtuse and mean or you are very confused and don't understand what is being said. In which case, I am the one that isscared for you.

 

Funny that you left jenna jaminson off this list. She is a real person no? When a man says "it's not like I could be with her anyway", most women hear that he actually would be with her if he could. And that she holds some kind of higher place of beauty in his eyes then his own SO.

 

Following that line of thinking, I think it would be most helpful if you and other men here reading this thread could answer c-riouz's question:

 

Let me ask again: why don't men just fantasize about doing their wives / gfs when they masturbate? It must be because she isn't enough, can't do it for him anymore - or why else? What other plausible reason could there be? What other plausible reason is there for watching tons and tons of different new chicks every time?

 

So have at it guys, I guess the simple fact is that the woman you have, that loves you, just isn't enough. If you think that doesn't effect her, you are fooling yourself.

 

 

Again, thanks for the full meal of words you put in my mouth. What I was recognizing was that you compromise your obviously deeply-felt views to maintain a relationship with your BF. I'm assuming he does the same thing. Most men and women do, myself and my W included. The reconciling comes from the need to understand that one's opposite sex partner isn't going to look at all aspects of sexuality the same way you do. Calling him names, either in person or online, isn't going to bridge that gap. I understand that you wish that he - and all men - looked at porn and other women the way you do. It doesn't seem to work that way and you just might have to accept that...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

Again, I find irony in your sensitivity to what you preceive men being called names when most porn refers to women in one derogatory name or another. Men don't like to be called names? I don't blame them. But guess what, women don't either and when we see the man we love masturbating to images of another woman's debasement, we question him as a man. Can you understand that?

 

I don't expect a man's sexuality to be exactly like him. But if a man's sexuality is so much defined by fake girls, having fake orgasms while 5 guys have sex with her at once while she is only 20 years old, you have to ask yourself why that defines a man's sexuality. Why does porn define a man's sexuality so much as that men associate with it over real women? Do you know how it feels having relationships with men, knownig that their real fantasy is some breast implanted 20 year old girl, and that they have t settle for a "real woman" such as myself? Do you knwo the disconnect it puts between men and women? The fear anxciety and worry that women have about their bodies, the way men see them and if they are "enough" for a man to love and respect? I suspect you will ignore all these questions, just like you do usually. Also like most of the men here have backed out of and decided not to chime in on a serious discusion. After all, what is a woman but three holes, a pretty face and a pair of breasts there for your amusement. it doesn't matter if she has a heart, has a brain and has feelings. Those things don't matter to men. What matters to men is how many holes a woman offers him and if she has a perfect body. That's the kind of men we have today. The kind of men that rather defend their right to sit infront of the glow of the computer screens when their So isn't around masturbating to teenagers or 20s instead of respecting women and respecting his relationship with his partner.

[Mr. Lucky]

Funny that you left jenna jaminson off this list. She is a real person no? When a man says "it's not like I could be with her anyway", most women hear that he actually would be with her if he could. And that she holds some kind of higher place of beauty in his eyes then his own SO.

Jenna Jammison is an actress hired to play a part in a movie. In that sense, she's no different than Tom Cruise or Julia Roberts, thespian skills aside. If you think her on-screen persona is a "real person" than you must also think that Julia Roberts is a hooker with a heart of gold. It's a fantasy. If you truly see her movie character from "Slutty Pirates II" as taking your place in your BF's eyes, then I feel for you.

Following that line of thinking, I think it would be most helpful if you and other men here reading this thread could answer c-riouz's question:

 

Let me ask again: why don't men just fantasize about doing their wives / gfs when they masturbate? It must be because she isn't enough, can't do it for him anymore - or why else? What other plausible reason could there be? What other plausible reason is there for watching tons and tons of different new chicks every time?

Well, now we've come full circle. The "plasible reason" is ... we're men! We notice other women. We occasionally think about other women. We sometimes fantasize about other women. I'm not sure why that is so hard for you to hear and accept since it's been a fact of male/female relations since Adam and Eve. You could wish it weren't so, not going to change a thing...

 

Mr. Lucky

[manugeorge]

Funny that you left jenna jaminson off this list. She is a real person no? When a man says "it's not like I could be with her anyway", most women hear that he actually would be with her if he could. And that she holds some kind of higher place of beauty in his eyes then his own SO.

 

Well actually, Jenna Jameson is likely to hold a higher place of beauty in a man's eyes than his SO unless his SO is Angelina Jolie:p. Jenna Jameson is a very beautiful woman, porn aside. Certain parts of her may have been surgically enhanced sure, but she is more 'physically' attractive than most of us regular looking folks. The same as Cindy Crawford or Halle Berry or Brad Pitt or George Clooney, some people are just more aethestically pleasing to the eye than others, it's an unfortunately fact of life. No one can change that, we can only blame the creator for it.

 

The thought though, that Jenna Jameson is hotter than most women is best kept in a man's head just like my thought that George Clooney is in fact, more good looking than my BF is best kept in my head. You know that fact, you just don't rub it in. A relationship comes with diplomacy and tact.

 

One can kind of see how Jersey may feel like watching porn is a man's way of rubbing it in, I personally don't see it that way but her stance on it is not so far fetched when you look at it that way.

[fral945]

Well, now we've come full circle. The "plasible reason" is ... we're men! We notice other women. We occasionally think about other women. We sometimes fantasize about other women. I'm not sure why that is so hard for you to hear and accept since it's been a fact of male/female relations since Adam and Eve. You could wish it weren't so, not going to change a thing...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

Mr. Lucky,

 

I'm not sure why you keep arguing with JS and the like. You'll never win an argument when the other side starts out on faulty premises that they are unwilling to question. Their logic is based on the assumption that male and female minds are essentially wired the same way. It's obvious because they keep talking about how we should be able to "train" our minds to be like theirs, which means never thinking about other women sexually or otherwise in a relationship. They essentially attribute the stereotypical "male" qualities (such as the power of visual stimulation and craving for variety) to nurture and not nature.

 

Luckily most of the women on this board realize that we are wired differently and don't have such strong anti-porn stances. Allow women like JS to struggle for some years, and as they grow older maybe they'll come to realize one day that we are men and they are women, and that there are certain differences they may not like but will have to accept.

 

It's also obvious they are reacting to the way it's affected their lives. I have yet to see a woman post with a strong anti-porn stance that has not either been directly affected by men in their lives who have legitimate porn problems or who are very religious. I compare them to the people who are teetotalers and totally against alcohol or any kind because they had a mother, father, or husband was an abusive alcoholic. They condemn the porn like the abused wife or child condemns the alcohol.

[2nd-Best]

Jenna Jammison is an actress hired to play a part in a movie. In that sense, she's no different than Tom Cruise or Julia Roberts, thespian skills aside. If you think her on-screen persona is a "real person" than you must also think that Julia Roberts is a hooker with a heart of gold. It's a fantasy. If you truly see her movie character from "Slutty Pirates II" as taking your place in your BF's eyes, then I feel for you.

 

Well, now we've come full circle. The "plasible reason" is ... we're men! We notice other women. We occasionally think about other women. We sometimes fantasize about other women. I'm not sure why that is so hard for you to hear and accept since it's been a fact of male/female relations since Adam and Eve. You could wish it weren't so, not going to change a thing...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

I really have to agree with Jersey here in regards to you not answering her questions and especially now because you're being defensive.

 

Saying that men are they way they are and its been like that since adam and eve, is a cop out!

If you are saying that men are the way they are and that humans do not evolve with time and we should just except it and if thats the truth then I'd rather being a lesbian than stay with a man because females as the fairer sex also seem to be more evolved then men from what you're saying.. if woman can grow and evolve and men just stay the same and want to f*ck anything that walks and spread their seeds then I think for humanities sake its better if woman just become lesbians and kill of the population and have a race of amazons.. seriously.

[Lovelybird]

I know many of you don't believe in God, still I want to show you what God really demands us. the human society is moving, times are changing, ideas are changing, many things that aren't acceptable in old times, now it became normal. Every member in this society are influenced by the current culture, even this culture harms themselves and put them into bondage after bondage (addiction), and get used to the current culture, even this means offend God

 

 

Where is purity, faithfulness, striving for spiritual growing and pure love? where are these things? why people stopped seeking these things? instead indulge in selfish lust for other women not their wives?

 

Titus 2:12 Denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age

 

Proverb 11:6 The righteousness of the upright will deliver them, but the unfaithful will be caught by their lust

 

1 Peter 4:2 He no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh for th elusts of men, but for the will of God

 

Matthew 5:28 I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart

 

1 Peter 2:11 Beloved, I beg you as sojourners and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lust which war against the soul

 

Galatians 5:17 The flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish

[Jersey Shortie]

Jenna Jammison is an actress hired to play a part in a movie. In that sense, she's no different than Tom Cruise or Julia Roberts, thespian skills aside. If you think her on-screen persona is a "real person" than you must also think that Julia Roberts is a hooker with a heart of gold. It's a fantasy. If you truly see her movie character from "Slutty Pirates II" as taking your place in your BF's eyes, then I feel for you.

 

Jenna Jamison IS hired to play a part. I don't remember saying otherwise. That doesn't stop men from wanting to sleep with her. Or stop men with gf and wives from thinking about her. That is the point here. It doesn't stop men from thinking she is more beautiful then their own partners. It doesn't stop men from entertaining thoughts of her when they are being intimate with their partner. And Mr. Lucky, you are dancing around the direct questions asked to you. As you have dnaced around the direct honest questions asked to you many times before. Not one person here argued that she is playing a part. But there is no doubt that men still want to bed her and think about wanting to bed her despite whatever part she is playing. Funny also how you argue about the disrespect you think has been shown to men and the name calling you think has been said about men in regards to porn. But the example you use "Slutty Pirates II" is one that uses a name to slight women. That's okay right?

 

Well, now we've come full circle. The "plasible reason" is ... we're men! We notice other women. We occasionally think about other women. We sometimes fantasize about other women. I'm not sure why that is so hard for you to hear and accept since it's been a fact of male/female relations since Adam and Eve. You could wish it weren't so, not going to change a thing...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

Then why do you bother having monogmous relationships with any woman at all? Why? What is the point. If no matter what she does, isnt' good enough, and you will at the end of the day think about other women with or without here there, what is the point in a woman trying to make a relationship work with a man if he doesn't really seem to care to make it work. Yes you are "men" and we are "women". And it is unfair and hurtful that men ahve this whole other world that entertains ideals about women that no real woman meets, and have created a whole fantasy world where the women are nothing more then three holes. It hurts. YOu want women to give you a break? Why don't you try giving us one and being on our side.

 

 

Their logic is based on the assumption that male and female minds are essentially wired the same way. It's obvious because they keep talking about how we should be able to "train" our minds to be like theirs, which means never thinking about other women sexually or otherwise in a relationship. They essentially attribute the stereotypical "male" qualities (such as the power of visual stimulation and craving for variety) to nurture and not nature.

 

I never said a man can never have another sexual thought about another woman. My issue is with the lack of effort most men seem to make. Men want to pander to their most base and unflattering and unmanly desires and want women to pander to men and still think men are wonderful for it. It doesn't work that way. You actually have to put in some effort if you want the other sex to see you worth while. YOu can't just shrug your shoulders, expect women to think you are wonderful with no effort on your part. And if men want variety, that is fine. Then don't have a committed relationship! Don't get into a relationship that is defined by being true to one person. For a man to get into a relationship and then turn around and tell the person he willingly chooses to have a relationship with that he needs variety makes no logical sense, and it is selfish. You are claiming that the one thing you need is in direct opposites to the choice you made to have a monogmous relationship. That doesn't make a woman feel more open and vunerable with you. That makes her feel like she has to self protect and be on guard from you, the one person she shouldn't have to feel that way with.

 

Luckily most of the women on this board realize that we are wired differently and don't have such strong anti-porn stances. Allow women like JS to struggle for some years, and as they grow older maybe they'll come to realize one day that we are men and they are women, and that there are certain differences they may not like but will have to accept.

 

I think most women do accept porn in thier man's life. But I am not as fooled to think that most women are happy with the way their men treat them in the relationship with regards to porn. I can't tell you the amount of women I have talked to in real life who are bitter and hurt and feel unloved and disrespected for their man's porn use. You would be suprised. We love men and the thank you we get from men for loving them is his love for 21 year old with implants in porn. You can go on and think that the only women that have issues with porn are ones that have extreme cases. But that isn't the truth anymore. We live in an age where more men are spending more time infront of their porn with the computer light glow on their faces. That isn't what being a man is about yet more men and young boys are doing just that. They are choosing to opt out of life and opt into a cyber world that will always be more exciting then what any one woman can provide. Porn is about disconnection and more and more men are choosing to disconnect. And there are alot of women out there that don't feel like women any more for it. YOu want to defend porn? Go ahead. But I don't see any woman her edefending a multi-billion dollar industry that treats men no better then a wallet. But I sure bet if there was there would be many men that would question the respect women had for them. The truth is that men just don't seem to have respect for women. You can use arguments about "that's just the way men are". ANd yes, men like sex and like women. But there is a point when "that's just the way they are" excuse is used to justify lazy, selfish and inconsiderate behavior.

[soserious1]

I don't consider myself some horrible prude. I don't expect a man to wear blinders or to stare at his feet while we're out and about. I also cannot expect him to ignore the near pornlike images that are everywhere now it seems.Hard wiring is hardwiring after all and noticing good looking people is totally natural.

 

I can tell you this though if a man chooses to "disconnect" in a big way via porn and in so doing begins to treat me like crap after awhile I'll choose to disconnect" as well... and this raises a great big protest from men, my husband got ANGRY that I stopped acting loving and giving,stopped treating him like he walked on water, then the excuses get trotted out Ït's because I'm a man" and the insults "You're just insecure"

 

If you want "variety" great, stay single, don't swear commitment to me then start finding all sorts of loopholes out of that commitment while firmly holding me to my end of the original contract.

 

 

In a nutshell that's what bothers me, guys reserve the right to surf for endless amounts of porn,openly ogle young women while you're standing right next to them but they then expect you to be loving,giving and sweet in return.Bottom line is if you're so obvious in your gawking and your porn usage that it becomes a topic of constant conversation with your SO chances are pretty good, you're the one over doing things.

[Mr. Lucky]

Funny also how you argue about the disrespect you think has been shown to men and the name calling you think has been said about men in regards to porn. But the example you use "Slutty Pirates II" is one that uses a name to slight women. That's okay right?

Part of your problem, Jersey. The name is supposed to be a joke, I made it up. But you're so uptight is a painfully polically correct way that your keyboard probably squeaks while you're posting. Loosen up.

If you are saying that men are the way they are and that humans do not evolve with time and we should just except it and if thats the truth then I'd rather being a lesbian than stay with a man because females as the fairer sex also seem to be more evolved then men from what you're saying.. if woman can grow and evolve and men just stay the same and want to f*ck anything that walks and spread their seeds then I think for humanities sake its better if woman just become lesbians and kill of the population and have a race of amazons.. seriously.

That last part almost sounds like a porn movie plot (Jersey, that was another joke ).

 

I respectfully disagree with you, 2nd Best, as I don't think that women have evolved much at all. I think they are mostly still the same wonderful nurturing, caring, empathizing creatures they were on day one, better than us crude guys across the board in all those respects. Much like men, they are playing the hand that biology dealt them. Don't you think we (the two genders) complement each other a little bit?

 

Mr. Lucky