a different prespective needed

[whichwayisup]

They do not speak at all.

 

So, you don't think that has some kind of affect on their kids? You even said that if she needs to talk to her husband, their eldest son relays the message. THAT is wrong and IS setting an example, the WRONG example of how a relationship/marriage works.

 

Anyway, I know you want to believe every single thing that your MM tells you.....

[wildsoul]

Psst, tanabana: I'd like to read your posts, but without any paragraph breaks, it's just too hard. If you could hit the enter button and put some blank lines in there now and again, it sure would make it easier.

[tanabanana92207]

Again, he is not baiting her into arguments. They don't speak so how can they argue. Again, it's not that I want to believe everything he tells me -- I've been a witness to some of it. Everyone is making him out to be the bad guy because of his involvement with me -- did anyone stop and think that maybe she is the cause of some of the problems? I say this because I have been in a marriage where I contributed to our break-up.

 

I know that when a marriage is broken, having an A is not the way to fix things or end things, but, as I'm sure some you know, things happen, for whatever reason. I was hoping that I could come on the site and find some support, not to be judged or have him judged. I wanted feedback from people who have been in similar circumstances. Constructive not destructive feedback. A place to vent....

 

Sorry Wild Soul ---- I'll try to put some space. I just go off on a tangent sometimes and don't pause.

[tanabanana92207]

I know that their lack of communication is a bad example, just as her using their son as the messenger is detrimental however, she is the one not willing to talk. She is the one using the son as a messenger. I know that there is supposed to be solidarity amongst women but sometimes women do share the blame. It doesn't seem as though anyone is acknowledging that possibility.

[whichwayisup]

did anyone stop and think that maybe she is the cause of some of the problems?

 

Ofcourse each of them are responsible for the state and the problems in their marriage, it takes two. But, it's HIS choice to go outside of the marriage, even if he tries to justify it or blame HER for his cheating, is bullcrap. She did NOT force him nor push him into deciding to cheat. He owns that all on his own.

[bentnotbroken]

Shortly after I made the decision to get a divorce, the other man started making noises about how he would love it if his wife would leave him and started doing certain things designed to push her into making that move. Coming home later on the weekend, talking to me from his cell phone (knowing that she's the one who pays the bill and would see the calls), sleeping on the couch, and generally not speaking. We spend at least 2 hours a day together after work just going going for walks in the park and talking. He has stopped giving her his paychecks and opened his own account thinking she would either ask him for money to pay the bills or transfer money from their savings account to cover the bills. But she has done none of these things and yet has still paid the bills. I am pretty sure that she suspects about us as she has brought up our cell phone conversations to him and has told him that he has changed in the past year. I realize his motivation in wanting her to be the one to divorce him. He doesn't want to bear the full brunt of the blame.

 

 

 

Here is the statement you made(with deletions) that he is the one not speaking to her after coming in from spending time with you and how he is doing things to bait her. He is letting her see him talk to you via the bills, does it sound like he isn't gas lighting her and you aren't sitting by and watching it happen? No, matter how you spin it, you are involved in helping to mess with her mind.

[whichwayisup]

Maybe she knows all about the affair, has hired a PI and is just waiting him out. Never say never..

 

BNB is right, he IS gaslighting her, so no wonder she isn't speaking to him, hense I think she knows about him cheating.

[bish]

A little background first. I am currently coming out of a 15 yr. completely dysfunctional marriage. I started a new job around 2 yrs ago and found myself confronted with very real feelings towards a co-worker. I know that women who become involved with married men are considered home-wreckers. But, I have come to the opinion that unless you are in that position, it is not always so cut and dried.

 

Its always considered not "so cut and dried" by people engaging in affairs with married people so they can deny that they are, in fact, homewreckers.

 

 

I never believed that I would become involved with a married man but, here I am.

 

Why do people always feel the need to say, "I never intended for this to happen", or "I never thought I'd be involved with a MM/MW, but....." as if that mitigates what is going on?

 

 

I went into this relationship believing that there was no future.

 

:confused: Then why do it? Do you not care there is someone else involved? The wife?

 

Oh, I forgot what alot of you say, if it weren't you it would be someone else anyway right? So why the hell not?

 

 

 

I was of the mindset that this man made me happier that I've ever been in my life. I have come to the conclusion that while it is possible to love more than one person in your lifetime, we only have one soulmate. One person with whom words aren't necessary. I have found this man. However, I never fooled myself into believing that our relationship would ever be anything more that what it is.....an affair.

 

So you are content with sleeping with someone elses husband?

You are content gratifying yourself with a cheater?

 

The saying is true, the jerks get the women and the women fall for it.

 

 

I figured that I should at least enjoy this little bit of happiness while I could. From the beginning, both of have told each other that we wish we could have met each other 15 yrs ago. But neither of us ever spoke of the future. This man has been married for 14 yrs and has 2 children.

 

And not only is he cheating on his wife, he is cheating on his kids.

 

 

I have 1 daughter.

 

And if you're daughter ever gets married and her husband cheats on her, you are going to be sympathetic to her husband right?

 

 

Before anything happened between us, we were friends and would discuss our marital problems. Both of us have been unhappy in our marriages for a long time but neither wanted to make a move because of the children. That always sounded like a cliche to me until I was in the same position. It's noy always a lie. Once we became involved, the idea of a future together was this dream that we both had, but just didn't voice the possibility. We have been seeing each for alomst a year. I had been toying with the idea of divorcing my husband for about 4 years but made my decision definite in December of 2007.

 

Thank god for your husband. Now he is free.

 

 

I can't say that my decision was made because of the other man as I had been contemplating divorce for years. However, I must admit, that it did factor in. Not because I was hoping he would leave his wife and we would live happily ever after. But because, I realized what had been missing in my marriage and became tired of settling for a life of indifference. Shortly after I made the decision to get a divorce, the other man started making noises about how he would love it if his wife would leave him and started doing certain things designed to push her into making that move.

 

So basically your man doesn't have the balls to do right by her and divorce her?? Gee...whatta man. Wants her to leave him so he can take the easy way out.

 

 

Coming home later on the weekend, talking to me from his cell phone (knowing that she's the one who pays the bill and would see the calls), sleeping on the couch, and generally not speaking. We spend at least 2 hours a day together after work just going going for walks in the park and talking. Our relationship is not based on sex as we didn't even have sex for the first 8 months of our relationship. Most of the time we spend together is spent holding hands and talking. We even climb trees together, go to the movies, go to the arcade -- not your run-of-the-mill affair activities. He is sure that his wife has been slowly siphoning money from their account over the last 4 years to the tune of about $40,000.00.

 

Maybe thats because she is on to him and she is getting her ducks in a row to get rid of his worthless arse. If so, kudos to her.

 

 

I am pretty sure that she suspects about us as she has brought up our cell phone conversations to him and has told him that he has changed in the past year. I realize his motivation in wanting her to be the one to divorce him. He doesn't want to bear the full brunt of the blame.

 

Your man has no balls. If that is his silly little excuse, then he is absolutely pathetic.

 

He cheats on his wife, but doesn't want to be seen as the bad guy. What a joke.

 

 

I was in the same position for years. Should I wait a little while longer or should I end it now?

 

Nah, wait a little longer. He is a cheater...surely he is worth the wait so he can do it to you when the 7 year itch sets in and he gets bored with you too.

[bish]

In response to BNB, the fact that he has gone outside his marriage does not preclude him from being a good father.

 

Sure it does. He is betraying someone that his kids love. When you cheat on your spouse, you cheat on your children.

 

Sorry, I would have never imagined cheating on my XW if for no other reason she was the mother of my children.

 

 

Neither does the fact that he wants to push his wife into taking the initiative make him a bad father.

 

 

Manipulating his kids' mother and gaslighting her because he doesn't have the balls to leave. I'd say it makes him a bad father. If my father did that to my mother, he'd cease to be my father.

 

 

A bad husband, perhaps.

 

A worthless excuse for a man for sure.

 

 

However, it is not one-sided. As I said before, it takes 2 to break a marriage.

 

True. But he is the one trying to manipulate her into doing something because he doesn't have a set of balls.

 

He had the balls to cheat, he should have the balls to stand up and let it be known.

 

 

But I have heard that men almost never leave their wives. I find this hard to believe as the divorce rate in this country is about 50%.

 

Maybe thats because there are so many men out there that are nothing of the sort, but then their wives find out and the wives end up being more man than they ever were and end up filing for divorce.

[bentnotbroken]

I think his balls are on ice somewhere, how else could he be so cruel and cold. I pray his W is about to blow his behind a new hole.

[bish]

I forgot to mention. The one communication they have had in the past 7 months was a huge argument about 3 weeks ago where she said she wanted a divorce and she was going to see a lawyer and that she wanted 1/2 the house and 1/2 of everything. To which he responded, please go see a lawyer and that she wouldn't have to settle for 1/2 the house, she could have the house.

 

Geez...she should write down that he said that, the time and the date.

 

She has a chance to get rid of a cheater and come out smelling like a rose. She'd be a fool not to free herself from him.

[Cheesecake]

Hi Tanabanana- Can I just tell you, my MM's relationship with his wife is extremely similiar to yours. They've been married for 18 years, have two children, the marriage was over 12 years ago (they even went to marriage conseling), they decided to live separate lives about 7 years ago (and both started dating other people) but have been in the same house for the "sake of the children", although live in different parts of the house. They don't speak unless they need to- they don't argue because they are indifferent to each other - there's no emotion left for hate, and there hasn't been for a very long time.

 

Anyway, my point is, this is a VERY common scenario. I suppose it's natural for people to give you advice based on their own experiences. Some of the people who are sitting here dissecting him, and judging him, judging you and judging the situation are basing it on their own pain, or personal beliefs and lashing out accordingly. Just remember that and don't let them upset you.

 

All I can say is this situation is not an easy one - but just like anything in life, with great risk, because it is very risky, comes great reward. And sometimes it does work out. In fact, I barely know any divorced men who didn't immediately jump into another relationship before or during the divorce. Many men can not handle being alone. Think about it. No one can tell you how long to wait, or if its going to work out, etc. etc. You'll have to come to that conclusion on your own.

 

Let me ask you something: Have you ever thought that maybe you need your own space for a while? Hell, you just got out of a divorce yourself - maybe you love him but do you love him enough to go through that trauma another time vicariously through him? Maybe some space for a little while will give clarity to the situation for both of you. And if it was meant to be, it will happen. Don't let the cynic's tell you otherwise.

[Tomcat33]

Tomcat, how long did it take for your ex to divorce? I for one would not be able to live in a household with such a lack of communication. At least, when you argue, you are communicating. Also, that type of tension and indifference cannot be good for the children.

 

 

A year after we broke up he got the ball rolling.

 

I agree but some couples learn to exist like that. Me too I could not live like that either, be under the same roof with someone I have lost most if not all communication with that would be utter torture and I just could not let it get to that point.

[tanabanana92207]

I guess it is too much to ask for some people not to be cruel and insulting. I guess there are some betrayed S's responding to my posts. I understand there being sympathy for the wronged S as I was one myself. My husband cheated on me twice during our marriage. Does that mean that I of all people should not have done what I did?

 

I am not trying to excuse or condone my behavior. I know that what I have done is wrong. I am not trying to justify it in the name of love. However, who among us has done no wrong? I'm sure that some of the self-righteous, sanctimonious souls that have responded have never done anything wrong. I'm sure in their mind it is okay to attack people whom they have never met as a way of working through their own bitterness and betrayal. People should learn not to be so judgmental.

 

 

BNB, if I made it seem as though he stopped talking to his wife as a consequence of our relationship, I made a mistake. This behavior between them has been happening since around yr 5 of their marriage -- not prompted by him but by her. Again, I realize that he is the one clearly in the wrong for stepping outside of their marriage. I am not trying to make excuses for him or myself. It is what it is. Regardless of what she contributed to the demise of their marriage is no excuse for what we have done.

 

Having said that, what's done is done. I can't take it back. To be completely honest, wouldn't take it back even if I could. Does that make me a bad person? I don't think so. Selfish, yes. Foolish, definitely. Evil, no.

[bentnotbroken]

I guess it is too much to ask for some people not to be cruel and insulting. I guess there are some betrayed S's responding to my posts. I understand there being sympathy for the wronged S as I was one myself. My husband cheated on me twice during our marriage. Does that mean that I of all people should not have done what I did?

 

I am not trying to excuse or condone my behavior. I know that what I have done is wrong. I am not trying to justify it in the name of love. However, who among us has done no wrong? I'm sure that some of the self-righteous, sanctimonious souls that have responded have never done anything wrong. I'm sure in their mind it is okay to attack people whom they have never met as a way of working through their own bitterness and betrayal. People should learn not to be so judgmental.

 

 

BNB, if I made it seem as though he stopped talking to his wife as a consequence of our relationship, I made a mistake. This behavior between them has been happening since around yr 5 of their marriage -- not prompted by him but by her. Again, I realize that he is the one clearly in the wrong for stepping outside of their marriage. I am not trying to make excuses for him or myself. It is what it is. Regardless of what she contributed to the demise of their marriage is no excuse for what we have done.

 

Having said that, what's done is done. I can't take it back. To be completely honest, wouldn't take it back even if I could. Does that make me a bad person? I don't think so. Selfish, yes. Foolish, definitely. Evil, no.

 

 

 

I don't believe that you are evil, but your actions are evil. You know that you aren't right, but you don't mind continuing to do it. It isn't that we don't do wrong, we all do. We are all sinners, daily. But do you want to continue to live in the state of wrongness? There is the action of a wrong act, and the state of living in wrongness(sin)and not wanting to change it. That is where we are being watched by our children. Our children can see us make a wrong decision and do everything to correct that choice and learn from it. And they can see us live day in and day out doing the same wrong thing and covering with deceit. That is where he is in his life. His children are watching his wrongness(and don't think kids don't feel the tension or see the actions. They may not be able to process it, but they do know something is off)and unfortunately, your daughter is watching you. I did things that my children have picked up on(my anger) and they incorporated into their lives. It was wrong and I am dealing with that now as they age. What are you going to have to deal with?

[tanabanana92207]

BNB, I know that I am living in a state of "wrongness", I didn't come on this site to be preached to. I came to hear from people that have been in similar situations. Have you ever been through this? I don't mean as the BS but as an OW? I have been in both places. I know what both sides of the coin feel like. I don't feel guilt for what I have done nor am I seeking forgiveness. I do not need a lecture on morality. I know the difference between right and wrong. Again, if I wanted a sermon, I would have confessed to a priest and sought absolution. I don't mean to be nasty however, I feel as though some of those that have responded to my posts have been unduly harsh and self-righteous.

 

 

I came to this site looking for support and perspective from people who've been where I am now. While I thank everyone for their feedback, I wish those with a chip on their shoulder would refrain from giving me their moral and ethical positions on my situation.

[Ronni_W]

I am not trying to excuse or condone my behavior.

Does that make me a bad person? I don't think so.

Tana, I agree with you on both counts. You haven't made excuses for your choices, and whatever you have chosen doesn't make you a bad person.

 

But, if you look at many of your posts again, you'll find that you are spending a lot of time making excuses for HIS behaviour...and also defending yourself against others' judgments and accusations. In your position, I'd not feel obligated to respond to EVERY post and EVERY critical statement -- why do that to yourself?

 

At the same time, there are some who ARE trying to help you with what you asked for help with...how much time should you allow yourself to wait for his marriage to end?

 

But you are also rejecting the non-critical posts who do not see his marriage ending anytime soon. You are rejecting those "different perspectives" that you said you want, even when they are not attacking you, personally.

 

Is it possible that you are making excuses for HIS behaviour in an effort to maintain your own hope for your own happy ending? Because that would be perfectly fine, of course. But, if that is the case, it would be in YOUR OWN best interest if you know what you are doing.

 

The caution about how he is treating his wife (trying to make her miserable) simply is that, over time, he might be able to do the same to you. Doesn't really matter if that makes him a "bad" or "good" person, just that he might be able to do it to you...it is YOUR possible future that might be best for you to look out for. Similar caution about the fact that he does not seem to realize or care (again, doesn't matter which one) how his interaction with his wife may impact their children.

 

Yes, these are 'maybes', 'what ifs' and only possibilities, but that IS what "different perspectives" look like.

 

If you are still trying to decide how much time to wait for this marriage to end, ultimately you are in full power to choose that. But it is not looking all that rosy from what you've posted. But you STILL get to wait as long as you want, and read into their relationship whatever you want. Precisely because the rest of us don't know what you know, and only have your posts to go by.

 

Honestly, I'd suggest that you hang on to Hope as long as you can; as long as it makes you feel better than worse. And just keep all the other stuff somewhere in the back of your mind so that, when it is necessary, you can make the wisest and best choice for yourself. What else is there to do, really? Best of luck.

[bentnotbroken]

BNB, I know that I am living in a state of "wrongness", I didn't come on this site to be preached to. I came to hear from people that have been in similar situations. Have you ever been through this? I don't mean as the BS but as an OW? I have been in both places. I know what both sides of the coin feel like. I don't feel guilt for what I have done nor am I seeking forgiveness. I do not need a lecture on morality. I know the difference between right and wrong. Again, if I wanted a sermon, I would have confessed to a priest and sought absolution. I don't mean to be nasty however, I feel as though some of those that have responded to my posts have been unduly harsh and self-righteous.

 

 

I came to this site looking for support and perspective from people who've been where I am now. While I thank everyone for their feedback, I wish those with a chip on their shoulder would refrain from giving me their moral and ethical positions on my situation.

 

 

I didn't judge you( I don't have that right)nor can I absolve anyone of anything, not even myself. I did state the actions you are taking is wrong and no I don't believe I will ever find myself in your situation(probably some other equally as destructive though)you didn't get a sermon, what you got was an opinion on a public board. Feel free to no longer to respond, it is well within your rights, just as it is well within mine to state that the children do watch us more than they listen to us.

 

I will no longer comment on you, but I will willingly say he is a jack@ss that will and should get his. If you are in the fallout, as you said, you have chosen your path.

 

I don't have a chip on my shoulder(and several op will tell you that too)but I do have the love of God in my heart and the Holy Spirit in my soul. I have said nothing harsh or cruel. I have asked you to consider something other than your feelings and you didn't like that, so be it. But don't label the things you don't want to hear as harsh, because not everyone supports the stance you have taken.

[whichwayisup]

But you are also rejecting the non-critical posts who do not see his marriage ending anytime soon. You are rejecting those "different perspectives" that you said you want, even when they are not attacking you, personally.

 

I agree with this, and it's just because you're not quite ready yet to see all the other angles of your situation. Maybe in afew weeks re-reading all the posts again you'll understand what some people are trying to show you.

 

Many of the posts here are heart felt, even if you feel it's an attack or harshly put, most have been respectful and not bashing you. If BNB didn't care, she wouldn't be replying. She's a good egg and has alot of insight to offer you - But, you may not be ready to hear it yet..And, that's okay, but please don't fluff it off as she is a bitter BS and out to get you. That is actually the opposite of her.

[bentnotbroken]

WHAT???? Who you calling an egg:rolleyes:? Are my cracks showing again?:oSorry I'll get some make-up on that right away. Thanks WWIU:love:

[blueberry]

I don't believe that you are evil, but your actions are evil.

 

 

That's harsh and un-neccessary.

[blueberry]

I guess it is too much to ask for some people not to be cruel and insulting.

 

 

Yeah - Bish was a bit OTT.

 

Don't worry about it - regardless of some (un-neccessarily) harsh words from a couple of posters, there are some wee nuggets of wisdom in there.

 

Weed out the crap and take from it what you will.

 

Like you, I've been a BS and OW. Damned if you do, damned if you don't

 

Keep on keeping on, it'll work out eventually. And if it doesn't? I'll meet you in hell - being the evil cows that we are

 

xx

[wildsoul]

I agree with this, and it's just because you're not quite ready yet to see all the other angles of your situation. Maybe in afew weeks re-reading all the posts again you'll understand what some people are trying to show you.

 

Many of the posts here are heart felt, even if you feel it's an attack or harshly put, most have been respectful and not bashing you. If BNB didn't care, she wouldn't be replying. She's a good egg and has alot of insight to offer you - But, you may not be ready to hear it yet..And, that's okay, but please don't fluff it off as she is a bitter BS and out to get you. That is actually the opposite of her.

Agreed!

 

Tanabanana, FWIW, I came here because I got myself in the position of being an OW, too. It was so hard to admit and open myself up to criticism. I had no idea what people on this forum would do. But I'm sincerely seeking insights from a variety of people. I think that comes through in my posts. In response? Wow, wow, wow...I've got heaps of support and help! In the last 30 days, I've done a good job of making changes, and people here have been very patient and given me good advice that I've implemented on a daily basis.

 

I'll skip naming names, but some of the posters in this thread (you know who you are) have been super generous with their time and advice. There's no real reason for them to do so, except that they want to help. And they aren't holier-than-thou either. Not at all. But then again, maybe it's because I am (correctly) interpretting the intention of their posts as positive. I don't feel attacked, and don't get attacked. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

 

You did get a bashing from at least one person in this thread. Some of that might be brought on because you do seem (at this time) more invested in continuing your affair than changing it. It's typical that when people notice someone is in denial, that they respond by getting more wound up and "louder" to try and get through to you. I think that's what's happening here.

 

FYI, there is also an ignore user feature here. It's handy to filter out posts from the trollish members. Click on their user name, and follow the drop down links to add them to your ignore list.

[Owl]

This isn't meant as an attack...but it IS meant for the OP to think about and to have them reflect on the ENTIRE situation...

 

At what point does one's actions actually define them as a 'bad person'?

 

We see this all the time here..."I know what I'm doing is wrong, but I'm not a bad person.".

 

So what is it that finally makes someone a bad person, if its NOT choosing to continue to something wrong, something that they know hurts someone else?

 

"I'm not a bad person. Yes, I'm sleeping with a married man. Yes, I know that my actions are contributing to the end of his marriage, and I know that this whole thing is probably the most devestating thing that his wife is going through. I realize that what I'm doing is (if I get what I want) going to result in his divorce, the splitting of his family, and the complete disruption of the lives of all involved...him, his wife, his kids, etc... But I'm still not a bad person."

 

I know this is harsh...and I know it doesn't all apply to the OP's situation.

 

But think about it for a minute...what "more" does it take to MAKE someone a bad person?

 

To the OP...I'm not 'calling you out'. What I intend with this is for you to see the full consequencences of your choices...and to think about what the bottom line of this all really is.

[tanabanana92207]

Thanx Blueberry.

 

BNB, I may be a tad bit defensive about what you have said because I know what I have done is wrong. I kinda feel as though my situation is being tarred with the same brush as all the others. Every situation, in some ways, is unique.

 

I really do feel in my heart that my MM loves me. I defend him because of that love, right or wrong. I know people will say that he has "brainwashed" me into believing what he tells me, but I would hope that I am smart enough to distinguish lies from truth. I could be wrong about that one -- time will tell.

 

I have sat down and written down everything that has gone on in this R and tried to determine from that if he's lying or stringing me along. Again,

it comes down to what I believe, what I feel. I know that men have an amazing ability to make us believe what we want them to believe. I guess my contention is -- why try and make me believe something that I haven't asked for? As I said in my previous posts, a future together was never mentioned. I never hinted or suggested.

 

I never told him that if he didn't leave his wife, that it would be over between us. He is the one who has said that things couldn't continue this way indefinitely. There's alot that has been said and gone on between us that I haven't posted. Maybe if all the details were known, the picture would be clearer. I don't know.

 

I only know that I am not content to live for yrs being the OW. Itis not fair to me or anyone else in the situation. That is why I have given myself a deadline.

 

I guess what I wanted was to tell my story and see if there are any differences in the typical OW/MM relationships from mine and how those differences might translate to my situation. But, without all the details, it would be hard for anyone to offer an informed opinion.