Re: I absolutely cannot stand American women

[marlena]

If we don't open or eyes and confront this greatest of all evils, it will surely destroy this great nation.

 

 

OK, fine, slay this evil monster but, hey, while you're at it, don't forget to shoot an arrow or two straight into the heart of "male chauvinism." It, too, is just as much responsible for the demise of the family unit as its female counterpart is.

[paddington bear]

Thanks Lishy, Marlene and Taramere!!

 

 

I was bridesmaid at a wedding a few years back. The bride was ridiculously late, the minister - who was a bit off the wall - shouted at her, the organist made a ton of mistakes throughout, we (the bridesmaids) got shouted at, the photographer got shouted at, the congregation sniggered through the whole thing - and it was a general great day which I'll always have fond memories of.

 

Ha! I was the godmother at an Irish Catholic christening, the godfather was black and gay, I was there, a lapsed Catholic promising to be the child's spiritual and moral guide. The priest was totally confused and started asking the grandparents of the child what part of Nigeria they came from 'Jamaica' was the answer. 'Oh, well...who are the patron saints in Jamaica?' 'We're Baptists'. Who needs perfection??

 

Anyhoo, Taramere (always enjoy your well written and thought provoking posts) your post continued the topic of perfectionism. It seems to me that as a 'new' country America still retains the ideals of being a new and perfect society, and still tries hard to achieve those goals - which I might add is something worth striving for, but it should be with the realisation that it is not always achievable. On the one hand I love the way American's are goal-driven, I really got the feeling while there that you could achieve anything you wanted and people would go out of their way to help you out if they saw that you did a good job, they wouldn't make empty promises, but would pick up the phone and do something about it.

 

The minus side of that for me, is the lack of days off given to workers, people working, working, working, working to pay their health insurance, to save up to send their kids to college, work, work, work, work, work, and then maybe one day, when they're elderly and finally retired they get to travel the world or to just 'be'. I do think 'the American dream - if you work hard and act like this and do that then you will have some fantastic super life - has been spoon-fed to so many people that when it doesn't work out, they feel utterly cheated.

 

I think this is rather like a lot of young people today who want to study media studies, to be a celebrity interviewer as opposed to a foreign correspondent, or to be famous for anything, to do any job that is supposedly glamorous. No one wants to work in a bank or some other boring job. Shows like American Idol/Pop Idol and countless others have also brainwash people into thinking that if you really really try and don't give up then they will make it. And as we know, that is not always the case. Luck plays a role as does talent. It is the same with the expectations of marriage or relationships, just because we did everything right and tried really really hard doesn't mean it's going to work, if your expectations were too high and unachievable from the beginning, it's a double-whammy, broken marriage and everything that you believed to be true smashed into pieces also. But that's life. Life is damn unfair sometimes. Really horrible stuff happens to nice, good people, and really good things happen to nasty people:

 

For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

 

You mentioned Fight Club as an example of disaffected males. The main character who bought the right furniture, did the right job and yet was slowly dying on the inside.... Personally I loved that movie and I think it showed that all the intellectualising of 'how did we as men get here?' is not always the right solution for men, I'm not saying that bare-knuckle fist fights are either! Just that the movie portrayed the point that the male psyche of today is so confused and numb, that physical pain was the only way to actually feel something, anything. I read a review recently of a book about the state that the modern male is in now, it was written by a woman, reviewed by a man who had written a similar book, but who said that no one read his book as it was written by a man, that it took a woman to defend and put theories forward as to how men have been treated or have become in today's society for people to read it without guilt for agreeing with the theories posited...wish I could remember the title. Fritz could possibly do with reading it as it defended men and where they are at now, and that men were being emasculated by today's society etc, but written in a balanced way.

[Fritz The Cat]

Fritz, have you been able to look at yourself and see what contributed to the dissolution of your marriages, or are you just heaping the blame on your ex-wives?

 

Were your ex's American women?

 

Do you have good relationships with your kids? Are you actively involved in their lives?

 

Did you always feel this way about women?

 

The first time I married too young. Puppy love does not a successful marriage make. Broke my poor heart and I still love her even tho I haven't seen her or spoken to her in many years. Strangely enough, she never remarried and to this day, she still uses my last name. Every time the new phone books come out, I check. We didn't have any kids so there was nothing to stick us together.

 

The second one turned into a religious fanatic. God told her to divorce me because I wasn't Christian enough for her. I accepted the fact that she had gone nuts and moved on. Relationship with the kids is good but she's giving them everything they want to keep them from getting too close to me. She just bought my daughter a car even tho she can't get her drivers license for another year. She was scared to death I was going to buy her one and thus pull her closer to me. She's totally nuts. God only knows how I managed to stay married to her as long as I did. Don't think I've met anyone before or since who had a weaker grip on reality than her. Oh well, to each their own.

[dahmworg]

Not all feminists are man hating evil witches...there are as many types of feminists as there are types of beer (probably not the best analogy but it's late and I am tired). I am a feminist but I am also an advocate for men who are in relationships with abusive women and other domestic violence victims.

I grew up in the 60's and 70's when all the various movements i.e. battered women's (that's right it wasn't a battered persons movement and boy are abused men suffering big time for that), anti-rape movement, the women's movement and the civil rights movement. There were probably a few I missed but that's a lot of movement!

However, I was oblivious to what effect all these movements would have on families and men and children in particular some years later. It's really difficult to be a man in this country, especially if you are a magnet for every damsel in distress that comes along.

If I can impress anything upon guys out there searching for the perfect woman please please please hear this...never get into a long term relationship with a woman that is overly needy and/or one that has serious problems that you feel you can fix for her.

The most prevalent type of guy that calls our helpline are the guys I consider the rescuers/knights in shining armor. If you meet a woman (or if a woman meets a guy for that matter) and all of a sudden there is extreme drama and they need you to take care of them and protect them...do like Forrest Gump...Run Forrest Run! You will be happy you did in the long run. Jan at http://www.dahmw.org

[Taramere]

You mentioned Fight Club as an example of disaffected males. The main character who bought the right furniture, did the right job and yet was slowly dying on the inside.... Personally I loved that movie and I think it showed that all the intellectualising of 'how did we as men get here?' is not always the right solution for men, I'm not saying that bare-knuckle fist fights are either! Just that the movie portrayed the point that the male psyche of today is so confused and numb, that physical pain was the only way to actually feel something, anything. I read a review recently of a book about the state that the modern male is in now, it was written by a woman, reviewed by a man who had written a similar book, but who said that no one read his book as it was written by a man, that it took a woman to defend and put theories forward as to how men have been treated or have become in today's society for people to read it without guilt for agreeing with the theories posited...wish I could remember the title. Fritz could possibly do with reading it as it defended men and where they are at now, and that men were being emasculated by today's society etc, but written in a balanced way.

 

I really enjoyed Fight Club too. My gripe with it isn't so much about the book and film as with the paucity of balanced analysis and debate stemming from it. It seems to me that it's generally considered as a guys' film, about men and about the conflicts men face between trying to adapt to social changes and holding on to a sense of manliness. Trying to decide, perhaps, whether life is about the survival of the most traditionally manly, or survival of the most adaptable.

 

The message I got from it was that for those who believe in the former - eg Tyler - various aspects of the external world must be destroyed to make that external world compatible with what they believe it should be. Destructiveness versus creativity. But do people have the right to destroy a thing if they don't also have the talent and vision to create something better (for the majority), fresher and more relevant to replace it?

 

In the story, the narrator obliterated Tyler for going too far, yet it seems to me that a lot of guys who love the film continue to focus on Tyler Durden as the ultimate symbol of manliness. On the plus side he represented freedom from convention, and a charismatic personality. On the minus side, he was a psychopath who was hell bent on destruction...and it wasn't at all clear what he planned to replace all those destroyed things with, other than notions of manliness garnered from the past.

 

Like you, I most definitely agree that discussions about masculinism are potentially very relevant and interesting...particularly given the amount of ranting I read on here. The problem is that the notions of manliness and masculinism put forward tend to rely a lot on "our fathers....our grandfathers...they were real men" and so on. Which puts me in mind of the way Islam garners support by idealising the past and encouraging its followers to believe there's a way to regain that lost, rose-tinted past.

 

Derided as it was, feminism was fresh - and that's what made it exciting and often infuriating. Masculinism, as it's currently presented, seems to be a rather stale thing expounded on message boards to be met with textual sighs and eye-rolls because it's presented with anger, frustration and petty swipes against women, rather than in any kind of intellectually dazzling way. An issue that, if discussed in any seriousness, is closed for debate by any women on the basis that we're not men so how dare we think we have anything to contribute to a discussion about manliness?

 

Yet manliness and femininity depend on eachother for definition. Unfortunately on these threads, that dependence is always hostile. Manliness means not being feminine, feminine is bad or weak etc etc.

[Kenyth]

It's really difficult to be a man in this country, especially if you are a magnet for every damsel in distress that comes along.

If I can impress anything upon guys out there searching for the perfect woman please please please hear this...never get into a long term relationship with a woman that is overly needy and/or one that has serious problems that you feel you can fix for her.

The most prevalent type of guy that calls our helpline are the guys I consider the rescuers/knights in shining armor. If you meet a woman (or if a woman meets a guy for that matter) and all of a sudden there is extreme drama and they need you to take care of them and protect them...do like Forrest Gump...Run Forrest Run! You will be happy you did in the long run. Jan at http://www.dahmw.org

 

Amen! Everyone want's to be a hero. You don't know what you're getting yourself into.

[Woggle]

Not all feminists are man hating evil witches...there are as many types of feminists as there are types of beer (probably not the best analogy but it's late and I am tired). I am a feminist but I am also an advocate for men who are in relationships with abusive women and other domestic violence victims.

I grew up in the 60's and 70's when all the various movements i.e. battered women's (that's right it wasn't a battered persons movement and boy are abused men suffering big time for that), anti-rape movement, the women's movement and the civil rights movement. There were probably a few I missed but that's a lot of movement!

However, I was oblivious to what effect all these movements would have on families and men and children in particular some years later. It's really difficult to be a man in this country, especially if you are a magnet for every damsel in distress that comes along.

If I can impress anything upon guys out there searching for the perfect woman please please please hear this...never get into a long term relationship with a woman that is overly needy and/or one that has serious problems that you feel you can fix for her.

The most prevalent type of guy that calls our helpline are the guys I consider the rescuers/knights in shining armor. If you meet a woman (or if a woman meets a guy for that matter) and all of a sudden there is extreme drama and they need you to take care of them and protect them...do like Forrest Gump...Run Forrest Run! You will be happy you did in the long run. Jan at http://www.dahmw.org

 

I have no issue with feminists such as yourself but somewhere along the way the movement was hijacked by a bunch of extremist manhaters and it sort of soiled the name. I very much agree that men should not try to be a knight in shining armor to a damsel in distress. Most women who have constant drama in their life jump and volunteer for it and can't handle a healthy relationship. I guess the same can be said about some men as well.

 

The woman bashing by some men in this thread paints too broad a brush but these man are frustrated and angry because they did what they were told a good man is supposed to do and it flew back in their face. They didn't just wake up and decide to be this bitter.

[marlena]

they did what they were told a good man is supposed to do and it flew back in their face

 

Woggle,

 

How do you know this? After all, we do only hear one side of the story on LS.

 

Maybe some were total jerks and they got what was coming to them.

 

Just saying.

[Woggle]

Woggle,

 

How do you know this? After all, we do only hear one side of the story on LS.

 

Maybe some were total jerks and they got what was coming to them.

 

Just saying.

 

Maybe so but I know a lot of men who did right and all it did for them was get their heart stomped on.

[marlena]

Maybe so but I know a lot of men who did right and all it did for them was get their heart stomped on.

 

I know men and women like this,too. I also know jerks, both male and female.

[The Collector]

I would argue that over the last 20 or 30 years, (many) men have moved towards greater accountability and respect towards the opposite sex, while (many) women, empowered by their new-found independence and ever-excused by a societal acceptance/promotion of misandry and victimhood/revenge schemas have moved away from the same.

[Tony T]

I would argue that over the last 20 or 30 years, (many) men have moved towards greater accountability and respect towards the opposite sex, while (many) women, empowered by their new-found independence and ever-excused by a societal acceptance/promotion of misandry and victimhood/revenge schemas have moved away from the same.

 

There is definitely some validity to what you say here. It's fortunate that women have found a greater degree of independence but sad that romance has diminished by some measure as a result.

[paddington bear]

There is definitely some validity to what you say here. It's fortunate that women have found a greater degree of independence but sad that romance has diminished by some measure as a result.

 

I agree to some degree, however define 'romance' in this context. What do you think specifically has diminished? What is romance in your eyes and why does independence diminish it? Is it lack of time due to both partners working or less sex or...? Just curious.

[Rooster_DAR]

I would argue that over the last 20 or 30 years, (many) men have moved towards greater accountability and respect towards the opposite sex, while (many) women, empowered by their new-found independence and ever-excused by a societal acceptance/promotion of misandry and victimhood/revenge schemas have moved away from the same.

 

I concur, this is an observation that's been obvious for while now.

[Lights]

I would argue that over the last 20 or 30 years, (many) men have moved towards greater accountability and respect towards the opposite sex, while (many) women, empowered by their new-found independence and ever-excused by a societal acceptance/promotion of misandry and victimhood/revenge schemas have moved away from the same.

 

I don't normally like to write "me-too" posts, but this was beautifully stated.

[Ocean-Blue]

I would argue that over the last 20 or 30 years, (many) men have moved towards greater accountability and respect towards the opposite sex, while (many) women, empowered by their new-found independence and ever-excused by a societal acceptance/promotion of misandry and victimhood/revenge schemas have moved away from the same.

 

"Many" doesn't necessarily mean much. Many is more than some, which doesn't equate to all or most.

 

Also, this perspective of yours applies only to certain populations - it certainly doesn't apply world-wide.

[Isolde]

Mmm, I do agree women have become increasingly hostile to men as a whole and often victimize themselves BUT I don't really see a trend of men becoming more respectful, at least not in the past decade. I think both sexes have things to improve upon.