Dealing with the BW

[OWoman]

Does anyone have any suggestions how to get a BW to move beyond considering only her own loss / embarassment / hurt, so that she can start to take others into account too, like her kids? Or is it just a matter of time, and we just have to live with it until she gets there by herself....?

 

As an example - recently MM had to overnight somewhere, for work purposes, and she found out that the kids were going to be alone with me (and that they were choosing not to spend the night with her, instead). She flipped, and threatened to get nasty on the D. She got mean with the kids too. Because it was going to be a long time before she saw them again (she was going away, and then we were going away with the kids) and because MM was trying to keep things "civil" both for the kids sake and to expedite the D, he agreed and persuaded them to spend the night with her. He had to leave the morning, and so BW was going to pick them up from our place the afternoon. But she refused to come to the house, and insisted that they wait for her at the end of the street, some distance away. They agreed because they were afraid of what she might do if we came face to face. When the time came for her to collect, I saw them getting ready to go and discovered the plan - it was pouring with rain so I was not happy with the arrangement and tried to persuade them to call her to change it so she collected them at the house, or else, that I took them in the car and waited with them until she arrived, so that they could have shelter. But they were terribly anxious about her reaction and insisted on going, alone, to wait in the rain. I wasn't happy but let them go, not wanting to distress them more. She was late, and, as a result, they became ill. When MM came home I spoke to him about it and he was incensed, but BW shrugged it off when he spoke to her, blaming it on him for having introduced "that woman" (me) into the equation, thus I was to blame for their getting wet and becoming ill, not she. There are countless other examples, which have led to missed school, undone homework, lost belongings and massive inconvenience (for everyone but her) but she doesn't seem bothered in the slightest that her kids are suffering. It's almost as if she wants them to suffer, so that she can blame MM what what he's caused to happen to them.

 

I'm finding it really difficult. I do not want to speak badly of her to her kids - she is, for better or worse, their mother - but I do not want them to think that it's OK for them to be treated like this, or that I (or MM, but that's his call) support or agree with such behaviour. I've been saying, "she's not well, she does love you but right now she can't see beyond her own pain" but that's sounding increasingly hollow and there comes a point where protecting children should take precedence over some adult's issues. But until the D is finalised, and custody ruled on, she has a right to see her kids without interference.

 

I worry about the impact on the kids - in all kinds of ways - as well as the toll on MM. Does anyone have any suggestions?

[Owl]

Document her behavior, and its impacts on the kids. Be prepared to show this to the judges if she gets nasty in the divorce.

 

Other than that, there's no way you're going to convince her to accept the situation gracefully.

 

She's hurt, angry, betrayed, devestated, and that's all on top of whatever emotional baggage was going on PRIOR to the affair coming out in the open.

 

Hopefully she'll get IC...and that can help her work through things.

 

Odds are high that not even time will help her deal with...more than likely, she'll NEVER accept the situation. She'll probably always resent that the kids are with you, resent the affair and subsequent break up, and will always end up hating you and MM with passion and ferocity.

[OWoman]

Document her behavior, and its impacts on the kids. Be prepared to show this to the judges if she gets nasty in the divorce.

 

Other than that, there's no way you're going to convince her to accept the situation gracefully.

 

Tx Owl. That's what I feared. I just wish it would get sorted quickly. This is not good for the kids and the longer it goes on like this, the more damage it's doing them.

 

She's hurt, angry, betrayed, devestated, and that's all on top of whatever emotional baggage was going on PRIOR to the affair coming out in the open.

 

The A was always out in the open, and even she was told by MM some time back... but she only accepted that there was really "someone else" once I actually arrived.

 

Hopefully she'll get IC...and that can help her work through things.

 

I really do wish! Or even that she'd fall in love with someone else, and find new beginnings and other possibilities. Or something.

 

Odds are high that not even time will help her deal with...more than likely, she'll NEVER accept the situation. She'll probably always resent that the kids are with you, resent the affair and subsequent break up, and will always end up hating you and MM with passion and ferocity.

 

Owl I realise it must be hard for her. I'm quite cool with her hating me forever - or even hating MM, if that makes her feel better - but I'm not OK with her taking it out on the kids. They're HER kids, she's supposed to love them and they're looking to her for life lessons - and what they're learning is causing them pain and anxiety. Parents should be able to put their kids' needs ahead of their own issues when it comes to big stuff. I accept that she's not well and hasn't the resources to do this as she ought - but then, can't she back off and either seek help or acknowledge that, sometimes, they have rights or feelings too?

 

I've step-parented before and I thought that xW was a real whack-job but this one really takes the rusk!

[Owl]

I agree with you on not taking it out on the kids...the problem is, she's not thinking about the fact that making things difficult on you and MM rolls down onto them too a lot of times.

 

I'm not defending her actions, by any means. Like I said, I agree with you that she SHOULD be fighting to help her kids.

 

Just offering my thoughts on the reasons behind her actions.

[OpenBook]

Does anyone have any suggestions how to get a BW to move beyond considering only her own loss / embarassment / hurt, so that she can start to take others into account too, like her kids?

 

No, I have no suggestions on how to deal with her. All I can say is, she views you as the one who is taking her whole world away. You are The Destroyer to her. Whatever you do, do not underestimate her!

 

I worry about the impact on the kids - in all kinds of ways - as well as the toll on MM. Does anyone have any suggestions?

 

Divorce is rough on everybody. The most crucial thing that gets a kid through it is knowing he/she can depend on at least ONE parent who will always be there for them, who will never abandon them. I hope your MM doesn't move away or otherwise distance himself from his kids. Just be there for them. If they know that, if they can depend on that, they'll come through it just fine.

 

The toll on your MM is rough too... but he's a big boy (I'm assuming). He's made his choice. He's going to have to man-up now, and pay the consequences.

 

The act of divorce is profoundly sad and bitter, and it leaves an indelible impact on everyone involved. It will reverberate in the hearts of every member within the broken family, for the rest of their lives. But some of us are stronger at the broken places. And the sun always comes back out again, eventually. You just have to muddle through it somehow, and keep the faith.

[reservoirdog1]

I understand you're finding it "really difficult". However, of the three adults who are having a difficult time in this dying marital situation -- you, MM, and BW -- the one who's getting the easiest ride is you. By far. You're holding her to your own standards, which don't apply to her.

 

I suggest you bear that in mind, consider the perspective of the BW and how you'd feel in her situation having to interact with the woman who played an active role in destroying her family (not trying to bash, but that's what it comes down to), and then cut her a truckload of slack.

 

Then, if you're lucky, one day when the wounds have healed, she might be able to look back with a head free of pain and say, "well, in spite of everything else... at least the OW did everything she could to make a horribly painful situation as easy as possible in the circumstances."

[norajane]

You can't control her. But you can do something for the kids.

 

Have their father start taking the kids to family counseling, so the kids can get some professional help in dealing with the break-up of their family, all the stress that's been going on in their lives for the past however many years it's been they've been caught in the middle of their parents' mess, and all the bad behavior they're having to deal with now.

 

They need someone who knows how to help them, or they're going to end up so messed up as adults.

[Spinning Head]

What about counseling for everyone, including the children?

 

Exchange the children at a public place that is enclosed so that they are kept safe and warm. A fast food place close to BW's residence.

 

I agree with OWL in that you need to document everything. Keep a calendar and write everything down as your memory will fade with time.

[LakesideDream]

Ogal, It's hard, and I don't think there is an easy solution. From the BW's perspective you are a great, evil, green, wart studded, monster. And.... her man is yours now. Not an easy situation to accept.

 

From all your posts it's obvious that you have a lot of insight to offer. It's different when you have to apply your advice and insight to yourself.

 

I suspect that you know what the eventual outcome will be. Someday the BW will either get tired of her anger, or find a new love interest and lose her desire to make things difficult for her WS and you.

 

Buck up, you are in a winning situation, a rare success story. Be greatful, and bend over backwards to keep from becoming a greater source of irritation than you must be.

 

Luck to you,

[child_of_isis]

I think it might go a bit further than that due to the children.

 

W may see her as getting not just her man, but her life...

 

What comes to mind is Matty's wife...she said (about the OW) she wants you, my children...she wants my life...

 

Ogal, It's hard, and I don't think there is an easy solution. From the BW's perspective you are a great, evil, green, wart studded, monster. And.... her man is yours now. Not an easy situation to accept.

 

[OWoman]

Have their father start taking the kids to family counseling, so the kids can get some professional help in dealing with the break-up of their family, all the stress that's been going on in their lives for the past however many years it's been they've been caught in the middle of their parents' mess, and all the bad behavior they're having to deal with now.

 

NJ they started family counselling before MM left, to prepare them for that (BW refused to go) and the kids still have counselling (though it's become less frequent, at their request). The family counselling stopped some time before I arrived, again at their request, as they said "there was nothing left to talk about". I've suggested resuming - MM and the kids, or all of us - but they insist that there's nothing further to discuss, and don't want to make a big deal out of it.

 

MM has tried to open the discussion one-on-one (driving in the car, for example) but again, nothing much to say. I don't want to push the issue so that it becomes, in itself, a further source of anxiety.

 

Spin, changeovers used to be real easy - they'd go in to school on the bus from one home, and return to the other home on the bus after school. But inevitably there'd be sports equipment, guitars, school books or cellphones left behind, and it became more complicated. We stay in a really tiny vilage - there are no fast food places for miles (a trip into the city to find one is a serious mission, and there is no parking nearby so it would mean lugging of heavy bags for some distance) and the nearest public places that might be appropriate are local pubs - typical small-place pubs where everyone knows your business and remembers which socks you wore yesterday. Not very suitable, given the circumstances...

 

Reserv, I get that she's having a hard time, I really do - but she's an adult. The kids are kids. She has options and resources they don't have, and she ought to be protecting and nurturing them, not making an already difficult situation even more difficult. Causing them to become ill is negligent. It's a thin slide from that to allowing more harm and allowing them to be placed in danger. If her judgment hasn't drawn the line between minor inconvenience and physical illness, is there a guarantee it will kick in before real physical danger? I am not prepared to put the kids' lives or health at risk to "cut her some slack". If I have to call in Social Services, I will - but I'd far prefer to resolve things with minimum trauma all round.

[Agent_99]

You're holding her to your own standards, which don't apply to her.

 

I suggest you bear that in mind, consider the perspective of the BW and how you'd feel in her situation having to interact with the woman who played an active role in destroying her family (not trying to bash, but that's what it comes down to), and then cut her a truckload of slack.

 

I agree that you are holding her to your own standards. I want to say too, that despite the fact that I left my ex hubby, I too have some issues occasionally over his new gf and my kid. They really like her. I am glad for that, but at times I am a little jealous. But she is also very good at helping me see them, which I appreciate immensly.

 

My advice: DO document everything. See about family counseling for the kids. and continue to have patience and understanding for the BS.

 

~99

[OWoman]

Ogal, It's hard, and I don't think there is an easy solution. From the BW's perspective you are a great, evil, green, wart studded, monster. And.... her man is yours now. Not an easy situation to accept.

 

LsD, funny you should speak of "her man" - from the beginning, MM referred to himself as my man, even though I resisted any kind of possessive insinuations (he's his own person, and not a slave or a pet). The very first time I snuggled up to him in public, he melted - I think that was what did it, actually - she is completely averse to PDAs, is rigidly dogmatic about what she will and won't allow wrt private space (her kids have to ask permission to touch her) and ideologises everything as a war between the sexes which women have to win by ruthless rejection of men's assumptions of ownership over their (women's) bodies. Which is fine on one level - I have been known to confront men who've whistled at me on the streets until they've backed down and apologised - but in an intimate relationship one hopes for intimacy and respect, not continual warfare. She never wanted him to be "her man" in the sense of being a partner, though perhaps she wanted him to be her "boy" (in the way white colonials in Kenya referred to their domestic servants).

 

I think it might go a bit further than that due to the children.

 

W may see her as getting not just her man, but her life...

 

What comes to mind is Matty's wife...she said (about the OW) she wants you, my children...she wants my life...

 

CoI.... I really don't want HER life - I want my own! She and I are very very different people, and nothing at all about her life has ever appealed to me. It's a very elderly lifestyle - and while she is older, she's one of those people who was born old, it's not just a lifestyle that's come with age. She's lived like my grandmother since she was young - and so while I'm barely a decade and a half younger than her, we're worlds apart in all kinds of ways. Which is partly, I think, what the kids find attractive - instead of being forced to listen to choral music and sit in a mausoleum sipping tea at her house, at ours they'll come home to loud rock music and MM and I popping corn and making smoothies and romping in the street with the neighbour's dogs, and join in, instead of slipping upstairs into their rooms and shutting their doors as they do at her house.

 

Which is what MM used to do there, too - locked away in his room, unless he was downstairs with the kids while she was upstairs in her room. It's not a life I'd ever want - it's not a LIFE, IMO!

[OWoman]

The toll on your MM is rough too... but he's a big boy (I'm assuming).

 

He sure is - no complaints there!

[pelicanpreacher]

If your MM's wife is as you've described her have you ever wondered what he saw in her in the first place?

[Owl]

Some people have a desperate need to "fix" people.

 

I've wondered if that's not what happened in Owoman's MM's marriage a couple of times...I've had that same question you raised, Pelican.

[2sunny]

the only way that things will change is if your MM puts specific boundaries around his W and she respects them. this is a long shot - i'm sure - but THAT is something he will need to consider.

 

HIS boundaries - that take his kids best interest in mind.

 

if she doesn't follow his boundaries - then she doesn't see the kids.

 

not likely he will do it if he's carrying around a bunch of guilt - but that is what will change things with her.

 

if i were you - i'd stay out of it... easier said than done... i know - been there done that.

[Trimmer]

LsD, funny you should speak of "her man" - from the beginning, MM referred to himself as my man, even though I resisted any kind of possessive insinuations (he's his own person, and not a slave or a pet). The very first time I snuggled up to him in public, he melted - I think that was what did it, actually - she is completely averse to PDAs, is rigidly dogmatic about what she will and won't allow wrt private space (her kids have to ask permission to touch her) and ideologises everything as a war between the sexes which women have to win by ruthless rejection of men's assumptions of ownership over their (women's) bodies. Which is fine on one level - I have been known to confront men who've whistled at me on the streets until they've backed down and apologised - but in an intimate relationship one hopes for intimacy and respect, not continual warfare. She never wanted him to be "her man" in the sense of being a partner, though perhaps she wanted him to be her "boy" (in the way white colonials in Kenya referred to their domestic servants).

 

 

 

CoI.... I really don't want HER life - I want my own! She and I are very very different people, and nothing at all about her life has ever appealed to me. It's a very elderly lifestyle - and while she is older, she's one of those people who was born old, it's not just a lifestyle that's come with age. She's lived like my grandmother since she was young - and so while I'm barely a decade and a half younger than her, we're worlds apart in all kinds of ways. Which is partly, I think, what the kids find attractive - instead of being forced to listen to choral music and sit in a mausoleum sipping tea at her house, at ours they'll come home to loud rock music and MM and I popping corn and making smoothies and romping in the street with the neighbour's dogs, and join in, instead of slipping upstairs into their rooms and shutting their doors as they do at her house.

 

Which is what MM used to do there, too - locked away in his room, unless he was downstairs with the kids while she was upstairs in her room. It's not a life I'd ever want - it's not a LIFE, IMO!

The point is, in spite of what you think of her philosophies and behaviors, from her perspective, not only have you taken "her man", but you are also taking over her role as mother, in a way that she has no control over. When he leaves the kids with you, and when she has to deal with you to get them, she is in a maddening position, out of her control, of being subsidiary to you as the "main" mother, and if you don't think that her grief over losing her position as wife is enough, you can't even imagine what that is probably doing to her.

 

Since my wife and I separated, we've had an informal agreement (and although we didn't formalize it in our divorce, we still do it) that if one of us needed to put the kids in someone else's care overnight, that we would let the other parent know, and give the other parent right of first refusal to take care of the kids during that time.

 

Now, all along, we have been stunningly cooperative, and neither of us would ever turn that into a situation where we would drag the kids into it "Your mother said she didn't want to take care of you tonight..." or anything like that. But it has helped us each maintain our sense of control and importance as parents, even when the kids are with the other parent. And it especially helped me in the early days, when she started living with with her OM, to not feel like I was out of control of my role as father. It required a sensitivity on her part, which I greatly appreciate.

 

I realize you don't care about the wife, and that your focus is on making things smoother for the kids, which is decent. Do you understand - no matter how much you don't like or agree with her, that she has these strong feelings, BOTH around her usurped role as wife and also as mother? There may not be much you can do about the wife role (other than not rubbing her nose in it) but since it's her role as mother that probably most affects the kids anyway, maybe with some sensitivity on your part and that of your MM/BF, you can have some positive effect, or at least minimize the negative effects.

 

For example, if your BF is going to be out of town, maybe he could contact her in advance, and give her the opportunity to have the kids with her. Then he could pre-arrange the exchange and all that, so you would have a minimal role in the process. If you realize that her sensitivity is to being replaced as a mother and the lack of control she feels about that, then you (and he, really - he'll have to take the lead here) may be able to avoid creating "hot-spots" and soothe things for the kids.

 

Now you may bristle, if this offends your ego: "Why should I have to minimize my role? I'm part of his life. I'm not going to run around hiding. It's her problem to deal with..." I would understand feeling this way, but do remember what you have said: it becomes a problem for the kids. Even as you feel adversarial and negative about her, if you attempt to understand where her anger and grief is coming from, then you can use that to help benefit the kids. If that's truly your goal, then that should help motivate you, and if you keep your focus on that, it will help you set aside any bruise that you might feel to your ego.

 

Follow up question: what illness did they get from being out in the rain? You do know that colds aren't caught from being in the cold, yes?

[Owl]

Wow...that was one well thought out post, Trimmer!

[pelicanpreacher]

Likewise Owl, very, very well thought out post indeed!

[whichwayisup]

Excellent Trimmer!

[child_of_isis]

That's not what I mean...I mean the husband, the kids, the white picket fence, the evening dinners. The American Dream, so to speak.

 

I can see that you are wanting your own...but you stole her stuff to make yours.

 

Don't get me wrong...I'm not saying this, but this seems to be a common thought with BS's.

 

 

 

 

CoI.... I really don't want HER life - I want my own!

[child_of_isis]

He can't stop her from seeing the kids.

 

 

if she doesn't follow his boundaries - then she doesn't see the kids.

 

[whichwayisup]

Well he can stop her from seeing the kids if he goes to court and proves she's unhealthy to be around the kids. But, the judge is going to have sympathy for her because she is the betrayed spouse who now has to deal with her husband not in her life, and has to accept the OW around her flesh and blood, being stepmom. She's had NO say in it nor does she now. It must rip her heart out knowing that her own kids have another "Mom" in her life..

 

When is their divorce final?

[child_of_isis]

Physical danger? How did you arrive at physical danger?

 

From her? Or others? This is a really big jump.

 

Why didn't you just send them out with umbrellas? I think you might be overreacting a bit.

 

 

 

If her judgment hasn't drawn the line between minor inconvenience and physical illness, is there a guarantee it will kick in before real physical danger? I am not prepared to put the kids' lives or health at risk to "cut her some slack". If I have to call in Social Services, I will - but I'd far prefer to resolve things with minimum trauma all round.